Wonder if Groundspeak knows about this

[+Viajero Perdido]

I don't know much about it but it looks to encourage (or enable) ignoring the geocaching web site. Seems to me that finds won't be logged and many caches will be pillaged or muggled.

Bingo!

 

We need a new, third, cache classification, pronto:

- Premium Member Only cache

- Member Only cache (new)

- Non-Member cache (loaded into units for sale)

 

I put time and effort into hiding caches on the assumption that people will have, at a minimum, signed up for the game, created a user name, and have "bought into" the game by studying the website and looking around a bit. I put out caches for other "members" of the game. (BTW, if that's elitism, it's the weakest form of elitism, since signing up for a website is a pretty low barrier for calling something "elite".)

 

Don't force me to move all my caches up to Premium Member Only status.

 

(And don't you dare load PMO caches into units like this, that would completely destroy the meaning of member-only!)

[+Harriet the Spy]

I have to admit... I am interested in buying the geomate for my kids. I don't always cache with my kids, but when I do they always want to find the geocache themselves and hold my gps, I understand their wanting to do that as I like to hold my gps and find the cache myself too. I have 2 kids (my girls) that <3 to go geocaching, and this looks right up their alley, the other 2 (my boys) who like to go geocaching as long as there is a trail or park involved would like it too.

 

My first thought was, "isn't that the same price as a yellow garmin?" but after a little research I found that it uses the same chip set as the Garmin 60csx. BIG difference, the little yellow loses signal when a bird flies over it, especially in the woods. I know, it was my first GPS.

 

The more I look at the geomate, the more I think of it like the cellphone that was designed for kids, 4 buttons able to programmed by the parents. Or the simplified laptops designed for kids.

 

I am pretty sure the folks at Groundspeak didn't just willy nilly load it with caches, they have a wide network of volunteers and maybe they had some caches nominated to them. (I don't know this for sure, but its seems highly plausible) and I guess if you didn't want your geocaches to go into the geomate you could make them all premium member only.

 

This could be a really good thing for kids, and because of its low price and nice chip set this might help parents who geocache help get their kids to go with them more often. And the more times I can get my kids to go caching with me the better, as my hubby doesn't cache and it will help peer pressure him to go with us from time to time.

[GOF and Bacall]

I just wonder how much time and effort went into the development of this? Are these the resources that they don't have for all the other things we've been hearing about and asking for? Is this sort of development why they don't have the resources for the GE KML? Do they need that computing capacity to support the 250,000 cache PQs when these things get updated?

[+sTeamTraen]

I just wonder how much time and effort went into the development of this? Are these the resources that they don't have for all the other things we've been hearing about and asking for? Is this sort of development why they don't have the resources for the GE KML? Do they need that computing capacity to support the 250,000 cache PQs when these things get updated?

Last time I checked, Groundspeak was neither a charity, a cooperative, nor a Government institution, and as such, their investment priorities are nothing to do with the customers, paying or otherwise. Maybe developing this unit was very cheap and if enough people buy it, they will have the money to do all sorts of cool things, or maybe they will take the cash and blow it on jet-ski vacations. Either way, I'm sure that business factors will be the main drivers of any decision. (I'd bet the price of a Geomate.jr that the KML decision was a cost/benefit tradeoff. Welcome to free enterprise.)

 

In any case I would guess that Groundspeak's development effort was approximately zero. For a start, they don't have the kind of programmers on staff who make embedded systems like GPSr devices. And a single 250,000 cache query of the database probably took a day or two at most to set up, and twenty minutes to run. What slows things down is having 100,000 premium members running PQs; that's potentially 250 million caches per day, including logs and descriptions, so between four and five orders of magnitude more data.

[+sbell111]

In my experience, this "caching with kids" thing is way overblown. Even the "caching is a family activity" doesn't fit with what I see with my own eyes. Sure, I know of some exceptions, but I'd guess that 85% or more of the cachers in my area are at least 50 years old. I know a few families that have tried caching with their kids or grandchildren, but generally it doesn't work out very well, or for long.

 

As for it being an inexpensive entry device, that means that if they find that they like the activity, that $100 eTrex ends up costing them $169 (well, maybe $159 after the Kiddy GPS sells at their next garage sale)

You are assuming that everyone that starts with a geomate will want to upgrade soon thereafter. Certainly, some will, but I suspect that many people will be happy with it because 1) they have no interest in non-traditional caches, 2) they don't care to learn the technical stuff, and 3) they have no interest in buying a more expensive device.

[GOF and Bacall]

I just wonder how much time and effort went into the development of this? Are these the resources that they don't have for all the other things we've been hearing about and asking for? Is this sort of development why they don't have the resources for the GE KML? Do they need that computing capacity to support the 250,000 cache PQs when these things get updated?

Last time I checked, Groundspeak was neither a charity, a cooperative, nor a Government institution, and as such, their investment priorities are nothing to do with the customers, paying or otherwise. Maybe developing this unit was very cheap and if enough people buy it, they will have the money to do all sorts of cool things, or maybe they will take the cash and blow it on jet-ski vacations. Either way, I'm sure that business factors will be the main drivers of any decision. (I'd bet the price of a Geomate.jr that the KML decision was a cost/benefit tradeoff. Welcome to free enterprise.)

 

In any case I would guess that Groundspeak's development effort was approximately zero. For a start, they don't have the kind of programmers on staff who make embedded systems like GPSr devices. And a single 250,000 cache query of the database probably took a day or two at most to set up, and twenty minutes to run. What slows things down is having 100,000 premium members running PQs; that's potentially 250 million caches per day, including logs and descriptions, so between four and five orders of magnitude more data.

 

Thank you for the lesson in basic economics. I understand that they are a for profit company. I also can cope with the concept of one 250,000 cache PQ being easier to handle than the frog alone knows how many paid members all hitting the servers on Friday night. What happens when these new users with these overloaded receivers start hitting the system for their updated info? Just a few questions from a curious mind. Wondering how it all fits together and where it is all headed.

[+sbell111]

I just wonder how much time and effort went into the development of this? Are these the resources that they don't have for all the other things we've been hearing about and asking for? Is this sort of development why they don't have the resources for the GE KML? Do they need that computing capacity to support the 250,000 cache PQs when these things get updated?

Last time I checked, Groundspeak was neither a charity, a cooperative, nor a Government institution, and as such, their investment priorities are nothing to do with the customers, paying or otherwise. Maybe developing this unit was very cheap and if enough people buy it, they will have the money to do all sorts of cool things, or maybe they will take the cash and blow it on jet-ski vacations. Either way, I'm sure that business factors will be the main drivers of any decision. (I'd bet the price of a Geomate.jr that the KML decision was a cost/benefit tradeoff. Welcome to free enterprise.)

 

In any case I would guess that Groundspeak's development effort was approximately zero. For a start, they don't have the kind of programmers on staff who make embedded systems like GPSr devices. And a single 250,000 cache query of the database probably took a day or two at most to set up, and twenty minutes to run. What slows things down is having 100,000 premium members running PQs; that's potentially 250 million caches per day, including logs and descriptions, so between four and five orders of magnitude more data.

Thank you for the lesson in basic economics. I understand that they are a for profit company. I also can cope with the concept of one 250,000 cache PQ being easier to handle than the frog alone knows how many paid members all hitting the servers on Friday night. What happens when these new users with these overloaded receivers start hitting the system for their updated info? Just a few questions from a curious mind. Wondering how it all fits together and where it is all headed.

Likely, nothing will happen. I suspect that it will squirt out the same 250,000 caches to every unit, resulting in practically no hit against the servers.

[+Prime Suspect]

Thank you for the lesson in basic economics. I understand that they are a for profit company. I also can cope with the concept of one 250,000 cache PQ being easier to handle than the frog alone knows how many paid members all hitting the servers on Friday night. What happens when these new users with these overloaded receivers start hitting the system for their updated info? Just a few questions from a curious mind. Wondering how it all fits together and where it is all headed.

That's probably a good while away. And why do you assume that Groundspeak is the one doing the database culling? I think we could all come up with the criteria - cache must exist X number of months and must have been active for a certain percentage of that time, Difficulty and Terrain ceilings, percent of DNF ceiling, etc. I doubt it took more than a couple of people an afternoon to brainstorm that. The could then either run off the query (which only extracts waypoint ID, size, D/T, and coordinates, because that's all the unit holds) or let the manufacturer do it from a database copy. It's not rocket surgery.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Prime Suspect

[+SD Marc]

Seems like a lot of hostile reactions to what amounts to answer to a question I see every week in the "Getting Started" forums - Where can I get a cheap unit to go geocaching.

 

Believe it or not, Geocaching is still a remarkably obscure and esoteric activity, and there aren't millions of people out there waiting for this very device so they can charge in and destroy the game with their philistine ways.

[+ladyrich007]

Has anyone said just what this thing cost?

 

After some thought, I think the target niche for this product is reluctant parents.

 

"Geocaching? Treasure hunting? That's stupid. I'm too mature for such kid's stuff. The kids might like it, though." They buy one for the kids and turn them loose. The kids find all of the geocaches within their unsupervised range (if any) and ask for the parents to start carting them around. The parents watch the kids have fun and a few won't be able to resist joining in. One thing leads to another and next thing is the family has two new full-blown GPSs and a premium Groundspeak account.

 

This has got to be a gateway device. As a stand alone device I see it as an utter failure. Kids only have a relatively small supervised range. The kids in those videos, if one of my kids wouldn't have a single geocache available to them. I'd be more than a little upset if I bought this item thinking I could just turn them loose. Even as a middle teen there's only two or three for them to find, but by then they're probably "too cool" to do such kid's stuff.

 

At first I thought that there might be a problem with a high muggle rate. I'm not seeing much in the way any ethics of geocaching.

 

Also, I wonder how many of those 250K caches are trinketless micros. Don't we hear that those and kids don't mix well?

[+gof1]

$69.99 from the GS store.

[+gof1]

Thank you for the lesson in basic economics. I understand that they are a for profit company. I also can cope with the concept of one 250,000 cache PQ being easier to handle than the frog alone knows how many paid members all hitting the servers on Friday night. What happens when these new users with these overloaded receivers start hitting the system for their updated info? Just a few questions from a curious mind. Wondering how it all fits together and where it is all headed.

That's probably a good while away. And why do you assume that Groundspeak is the one doing the database culling? I think we could all come up with the criteria - cache must exist X number of months and must have been active for a certain percentage of that time, Difficulty and Terrain ceilings, percent of DNF ceiling, etc. I doubt it took more than a couple of people an afternoon to brainstorm that. The could then either run off the query (which only extracts waypoint ID, size, D/T, and coordinates, because that's all the unit holds) or let the manufacturer do it from a database copy. It's not rocket surgery.

 

I doubt that Groundspeak would let anyone else handle the gerbil's reigns like that. It would be out of character for them.

[+Viajero Perdido]

We need a new, third, cache classification, pronto:

- Premium Member Only cache

- Member Only cache (new)

- Non-Member cache (loaded into units for sale)

Until Groundspeak implements that third classification (which was the default option until two days ago), all my caches are now Premium Members Only.

 

Apologies to Regular Members, but Groundspeak has just lumped you in with people who can't even be bothered to visit the website, where they might learn about how geocaching works.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Viajero Perdido

[+SD Marc]

We need a new, third, cache classification, pronto:

- Premium Member Only cache

- Member Only cache (new)

- Non-Member cache (loaded into units for sale)

Until Groundspeak implements that third classification (which was the default option until two days ago), all my caches are now Premium Members Only.

 

Apologies to Regular Members, but Groundspeak has just lumped you in with people who can't even be bothered to visit the website, where they might learn about how geocaching works.

 

That's only your assumption. They may be people already interested, who may buy the device from the website. Breathe.

[+Lightning Jeff]

Until Groundspeak implements that third classification (which was the default option until two days ago), all my caches are now Premium Members Only.

 

Apologies to Regular Members, but Groundspeak has just lumped you in with people who can't even be bothered to visit the website, where they might learn about how geocaching works.

That's only your assumption. They may be people already interested, who may buy the device from the website. Breathe.

That may be true for some, but this thing is also on REI store shelves, ready to be purchased on impulse. Do you think more will be sold at REI or shop.Groundspeak.com?

 

I have to say, it really does bother me that those of us who found our way to caching the "hard" way (you know, signing up for a free web site account; learning how to input coordinates into a GPSr) will now be joined by a lowest common denominator group who couldn't, previously, be bothered to do those things. I think the idea of a cheap, high-sensitivity GPSr is great; I know people who would like to cache but feel they can't afford it. But inviting people to hunt my caches ("Individual geocaches are owned by the person(s) who physically placed the geocache and/or submitted the geocache listing to geocaching.com." - Groundspeak's disclaimer) without reading the cache page description, without reading the Getting Started page, and without requiring them to join the community that every person who has placed a cache has joined - the more I think about it the more it bothers me.

 

I want to know more about what comes in the box - is there anything included about the "ethics" of geocaching? And I want to know whether PMO caches are included in the preloaded database. Boy howdy, that would tick me off. If Groundspeak really is a "partner" on this thing, I hope someone will speak up and offer Groundspeak's position. Right now, this is pretty confounding.

 

(The old "offline database" thing is pretty ironic too, but to me doesn't jeopardize the integrity of the game and of my own property the way the stuff discussed above does.)

Edited May 13, 2009 by Lightning Jeff

[+Viajero Perdido]

What the cache hider thinks:

I found this great spot, I want to share it. I wrote up a cool description, I think the camo will give you a challenge, and I love the logs the finders so far have been writing. This one is my proudest work.

 

How Groundspeak treats it:

N53 12.345 W113 54.321 $0.00000012

[+tomfuller & Quill]

The problems I see will be filled up logbooks with no matching online logs. Another probablity is food/candy put into caches. Kids will forget to waypoint where they leave civilization and be lost in the woods.

[+Tequila]

What the cache hider thinks:

I found this great spot, I want to share it. I wrote up a cool description, I think the camo will give you a challenge, and I love the logs the finders so far have been writing. This one is my proudest work.

 

How Groundspeak treats it:

N53 12.345 W113 54.321 $0.00000012

 

Very well said. I think this one single comment says it all.

 

I wonder how much time Groundspeak wasted putting the Geomate together that could have been spent improving the reliability of the website, fixing the PQ issues, replacing the overload forum software, issuing an updated Wherigo builder for the first time in a year. etc. etc. etc.

Edited May 14, 2009 by Tequila

[+ChileHead]

(edit: darn server hiccup)

Edited May 14, 2009 by ChileHead

[+ChileHead]

(edit: darn server hiccup)

Edited May 14, 2009 by ChileHead

[+ChileHead]

I just wonder how much time and effort went into the development of this? Are these the resources that they don't have for all the other things we've been hearing about and asking for?

 

I assume the geomate.jr people are a separate company from Groundspeak, and that Groundspeak only fed them the data, most likely for some fee I would guess. Making a database query, even for 250,000 entries, is just noise in the grand scheme of things. Sure, they probably went back and forth "Hey the last batch of geocaches had difficulty 5's in them, can you send me another one with only 4s and below?".

 

 

What happens when these new users with these overloaded receivers start hitting the system for their updated info? Just a few questions from a curious mind. Wondering how it all fits together and where it is all headed.

 

The receivers only load info if you have the update kit. I doubt people will be refreshing their units as often as most people here refesh theirs. Plus, the refresh could be hitting a static file (no database interactions) for updates, possibly not even hosted on Groundspeak's servers. That is, unless the updates are intelligent and don't give you caches you're unit already found (which I doubt - you probably get them and they get filtered by the device.)

 

I wonder how much time Groundspeak wasted putting the Geomate together that could have been spent improving the reliability of the website, fixing the PQ issues, replacing the overload forum software, issuing an updated Wherigo builder for the first time in a year. etc. etc. etc.

 

I haven't seen any indication yet that Groundspeak was involved in the development of Geomate, other than being a data provider. Maybe they were and I missed the connection.

[+DocDiTTo]

I see a lot of speculation, a little nonsense and a good number of legitimate questions. What I don't see is anyone from Groundspeak answering any of the questions. It would be nice if those of us who spend the time and money to hide and maintain caches could have a little insight into who chose the pre-loaded caches and what criteria they used. Are Premium Member Only caches included? If we want our caches excluded from this device in the future is there a way for us to flag them as such? Do we even have a right to make that request?

 

You guys in Seattle listening?

[Keystone]

We need a new, third, cache classification, pronto:

- Premium Member Only cache

- Member Only cache (new)

- Non-Member cache (loaded into units for sale)

Until Groundspeak implements that third classification (which was the default option until two days ago), all my caches are now Premium Members Only.

 

Apologies to Regular Members, but Groundspeak has just lumped you in with people who can't even be bothered to visit the website, where they might learn about how geocaching works.

The units are already pre-loaded with the selected caches. If any of your established traditional caches were on the list, then changing them now to PMO will only confuse GeoMate.jr users who find them but can't log them, as well as frustrate established regular members who will also find it more difficult to log your caches.

[+gof1]

We need a new, third, cache classification, pronto:

- Premium Member Only cache

- Member Only cache (new)

- Non-Member cache (loaded into units for sale)

Until Groundspeak implements that third classification (which was the default option until two days ago), all my caches are now Premium Members Only.

 

Apologies to Regular Members, but Groundspeak has just lumped you in with people who can't even be bothered to visit the website, where they might learn about how geocaching works.

The units are already pre-loaded with the selected caches. If any of your established traditional caches were on the list, then changing them now to PMO will only confuse GeoMate.jr users who find them but can't log them, as well as frustrate established regular members who will also find it more difficult to log your caches.

 

OK, so the cache info is already stale before the first unit is sold. Any idea how bad it is? I suspect that someone has some idea of the attrition rate on caches. What percentage of those caches loaded on these devices are archived in one week and how many weeks old is the information?

 

Anyone else eager to see the first posts in the forums from the soon to be users of these things? "How come so many of the caches are missing?" "I've seen some caches that have been added to my area. How do I load the coordinates in my geomate jr.?"

[knowschad]

Last time I checked, Groundspeak was neither a charity, a cooperative, nor a Government institution, and as such, their investment priorities are nothing to do with the customers, paying or otherwise.

 

And so, we have no right to speak our opinions? Groundspeak has no interest in listening to them? I will speak my mind, so that if Groundspeak has the slightest inclination to consider my opinion, they will know what that opinion is. No, I can't make them listen, but I can speak so that they can hear, should they want to.

[knowschad]

In my experience, this "caching with kids" thing is way overblown. Even the "caching is a family activity" doesn't fit with what I see with my own eyes. Sure, I know of some exceptions, but I'd guess that 85% or more of the cachers in my area are at least 50 years old. I know a few families that have tried caching with their kids or grandchildren, but generally it doesn't work out very well, or for long.

 

As for it being an inexpensive entry device, that means that if they find that they like the activity, that $100 eTrex ends up costing them $169 (well, maybe $159 after the Kiddy GPS sells at their next garage sale)

You are assuming that everyone that starts with a geomate will want to upgrade soon thereafter. Certainly, some will, but I suspect that many people will be happy with it because 1) they have no interest in non-traditional caches, 2) they don't care to learn the technical stuff, and 3) they have no interest in buying a more expensive device.

 

Wasn't assuming a thing. You apparently missed the word "if".

 

Those people that didn't have the ambition, knowledge, or interest to learn what they needed before are NOT the ones that I want to see participate in this activity. I want those that were willing to take some initiative and put their money where their interests lie to participate. I have zero interest in making geocaching accessable to the masses.

[knowschad]

The units are already pre-loaded with the selected caches. If any of your established traditional caches were on the list, then changing them now to PMO will only confuse GeoMate.jr users who find them but can't log them

 

 

Perfect!!!!

 

[+Frank Broughton]

I just wonder how much time and effort went into the development of this? Are these the resources that they don't have for all the other things we've been hearing about and asking for? Is this sort of development why they don't have the resources for the GE KML? Do they need that computing capacity to support the 250,000 cache PQs when these things get updated?

Last time I checked, Groundspeak was neither a charity, a cooperative, nor a Government institution, and as such, their investment priorities are nothing to do with the customers, paying or otherwise. (snip)

 

Horse poop & poppycock! The investmate priorities better have everything to do with our needs seeing this IS a community driven enterprise contrary to what you say. Without our spending our money and placing caches they have no business PERIOD! Name one cache Groundspeak has placed for us to find. Are there any?

 

This company is nothing with out us community members investing our own funds to allow them to make their money. Can I get a refund for the money I spend in contributing to allow "The Business" to exist. If we all remove our caches there is no Groundspeak!

 

Now all that said $30 dollars a year is worth it for all the fun that Groundspeak does allow me to have using its services. So I am not complaining about the company model (maybe the way it came about), but for sure challenging the idea that they owe us nothing in determining what to develope.

[+Viajero Perdido]

The units are already pre-loaded with the selected caches. If any of your established traditional caches were on the list, then changing them now to PMO will only confuse GeoMate.jr users who find them but can't log them

It's too late for owners of caches the USA to opt out of this, from the looks of it.

 

But all my caches are in Canada, ha! On the FAQ, they threatened promised to include other countries soon. Oh yay. Now, unless they've already done a data pull for other countries like Canada (unlikely), going PMO now should allow non-USA cache owners to keep their caches out of those units.

 

I can't imagine they'd include PMO caches in those units. That would be a major breach of trust.

 

Right, Jeremy?

 

Jeremy?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Lessee,

 

We hide caches and give Groundspeak the data required to list them in a database. So long as they are non-commercial and nobody can make any money off of those listings except Groundspeak that's cool. A body of volunteers steps up to vette and manage the listings we gave them. Together our published and vetted listings become the property of Groundspeak, so acquiring the primary product that they resell costs them nothing.

 

We give them their basic product, the Volunteer Reviewers give them the thousands of hours and service that it takes to assure that the product meets the guidelines (is salable). Their investment in infrastructure and staff required to host and distribute our their listings is paid for by Premium Memberships.

 

We Premium Members then pay them to let us see the data we gave them, and that works for us, because we get to see lots of listings, and lots of cachers get to see ours.

 

They sell our their listings and the Reviewers work to Premium Members.

 

Is that a business plan or what? I think it may be the most brilliant business idea I have ever heard of!

 

I don't know why this Geomate doesn't sit well with me, I've been thinking about it all day, but it doesn't.

 

How is it different than selling Premium Memberships (PQs)? Is it?

 

If our listings become their inventory to be sold should we get paid a piece of that sale?

 

Should geocachers who hide and list caches get free PQs in return for letting them sell our listings?

 

Should Groundspeak at least pay their Reviewers for the work they put into making sure that Groundspeak's product is salable? I find it incredible that so many people will selflessly give their time and money for years to make this game possible. They do it, I believe, so that we all can enjoy this game. Without them this game, certainly this site, would not exist. In the beginning these volunteers did it to make the game work... there was no money to pay them with. But, at what point does Groundspeak make enough money that volunteers should be paid? At what point do volunteers become suckers making somebody else rich?

 

Is it time that cache owners and Reviewers get a bit out of each Premium Membership and Geomate sale?

 

When it was our listings being sold to other Premium Members in a PQ to make caching easier for those who value PQs I didn't have a problem with it, but this Geomate thing just feels different for some reason. It feels like some line that I can't define has been crossed. Maybe it's the extended commercialism of a non-commercial game.

Edited May 14, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+sbell111]

... Anyone else eager to see the first posts in the forums from the soon to be users of these things? "How come so many of the caches are missing?" "I've seen some caches that have been added to my area. How do I load the coordinates in my geomate jr.?"

How would those threads be any different than the current 'Why are caches missing?' and 'how do I download coords?' threads? Other than the fact that the answer to 'how do I load coordinates' will likely be "push the button on the geomate's update cable", I really don't see a difference. It should also be noted that those geomate users that end up in teh forums are not the ones that many people in this thread are complaining about.

... Those people that didn't have the ambition, knowledge, or interest to learn what they needed before are NOT the ones that I want to see participate in this activity. I want those that were willing to take some initiative and put their money where their interests lie to participate. I have zero interest in making geocaching accessable to the masses.

You should check out terracaching.com. They have done a very good job at not being accessible to the masses.

... When it was our listings being sold to other Premium Members in a PQ to make caching easier for those who value PQs I didn't have a problem with it, but this Geomate thing just feels different for some reason. It feels like some line that I can't define has been crossed. Maybe it's the extended commercialism of a non-commercial game.

It's a wonder that you didn't flip your lid when Garmin got on the bandwagon.

[+BrrrMo]

Well since we can't stop it we need to educate the Newbies that come to Groundspeak about proper Cache etiquette, ie Trade Up, etc. because they sure didn't but any info about that on there website.

[Andronicus]

Well the product description says it is ment to work in conjunction with the grownups GPSr. So, the whole issue of stale cache lists is realy not relevent. The grown up will start a find, the kids will scroll through the 3 closesed caches, and when the correct one comes up, they will use it. If it doesn't come up, they will be sad and just follow their parent like they always did.

 

For the price, you could get a 'real' GPSr off ebay (eTrex H), but it is not as kid friendly. That is what this device is all about. Kid friendly.

 

PS I am not a sales rep for this, just think that the critisizm is a little over done.

[+Frank Broughton]

(rescinded because of a promise I made to jholly)!

Edited May 14, 2009 by Frank Broughton

[knowschad]

Just saw this Press Release on Google News.

[CoyoteRed]

For the price, you could get a 'real' GPSr off ebay (eTrex H), but it is not as kid friendly. That is what this device is all about. Kid friendly.

The only kids these are really geared for are the very young. We have a local geocacher who did one of our beginner multis at 6 years old--clues and everything.

 

With kids being able to IM, text, and a lot of things I have problems with, I don't think a GPS with more than two buttons is beyond their abilities. I think an eight year old will quickly out grow the Playskool GPS.

 

If someone wanted to make geocaching more friendly then making the link between the database and the GPS transparent is the key. A geocaching API that GSAK could take advantage of would be a great start--though from TPTB that is non-starter.

 

And that seems odd. Want us to come to continually come to the site to get data yet sell and provide stale data to another company. It will be interesting to see what the upgrade to this thing will be. Will non-(real)geocachers get better service than those of us that have been in it for a while can get?

 

Like AR, I'm uneasy about this product. I don't like the fact our hobby is opened to a group not remotely vetted. I've been saying for years the only security our caches have is obscurity. This product blows that completely out of the water. Sorta. I don't like the idea, but in reality I don't think there will be enough units sold to make an impact. While I'm not fond of news articles about geocaching at least someone would have to put down the paper, Google geocaching, and start clicking away. Then they actually have to go out and look for the cache. With this product a person could hand a kid a unit and tell them "Go find treasure." Owner maintenance issues ensue.

 

While I do remember agreeing to the terms of listing our caches. I do remember something about selling data to another company. The problem I have is what this other company is doing with that data.

 

I'm going to take a wait and see approach. If our caches seem to be in danger I'll de-list them, move them, and list somewhere else. I doubt that will be needed, though.

[+gof1]

For the price, you could get a 'real' GPSr off ebay (eTrex H), but it is not as kid friendly. That is what this device is all about. Kid friendly.

The only kids these are really geared for are the very young. We have a local geocacher who did one of our beginner multis at 6 years old--clues and everything.

 

With kids being able to IM, text, and a lot of things I have problems with, I don't think a GPS with more than two buttons is beyond their abilities. I think an eight year old will quickly out grow the Playskool GPS.

 

If someone wanted to make geocaching more friendly then making the link between the database and the GPS transparent is the key. A geocaching API that GSAK could take advantage of would be a great start--though from TPTB that is non-starter.

 

And that seems odd. Want us to come to continually come to the site to get data yet sell and provide stale data to another company. It will be interesting to see what the upgrade to this thing will be. Will non-(real)geocachers get better service than those of us that have been in it for a while can get?

 

Like AR, I'm uneasy about this product. I don't like the fact our hobby is opened to a group not remotely vetted. I've been saying for years the only security our caches have is obscurity. This product blows that completely out of the water. Sorta. I don't like the idea, but in reality I don't think there will be enough units sold to make an impact. While I'm not fond of news articles about geocaching at least someone would have to put down the paper, Google geocaching, and start clicking away. Then they actually have to go out and look for the cache. With this product a person could hand a kid a unit and tell them "Go find treasure." Owner maintenance issues ensue.

 

While I do remember agreeing to the terms of listing our caches. I do remember something about selling data to another company. The problem I have is what this other company is doing with that data.

 

I'm going to take a wait and see approach. If our caches seem to be in danger I'll de-list them, move them, and list somewhere else. I doubt that will be needed, though.

 

This, and one or two other recent items, has driven a desire in me to take another look at the other sites. Like you I am taking a wait and see approach with what to do about my caches but I'm gonna need to know what to expect should I decide to make a move.

[+gof1]

Out side of purchasing this, thing, is there a way for us to know if our caches are included in the pre-loaded list?

[+sTeamTraen]

Now all that said $30 dollars a year is worth it for all the fun that Groundspeak does allow me to have using its services. So I am not complaining about the company model (maybe the way it came about), but for sure challenging the idea that they owe us nothing in determining what to develope.

Running a company and deciding whether to make a particular product or not, is all about tradeoffs. To take an extreme example, if Groundspeak thought that the Geomate.jr would drive away every single one of the one million or so current members and replace them with two million new ones, they would probably think long and hard and then do it.

 

Your view has weight; so does mine; and so does the view of the 99.9% of geocachers who never come to the forums. And if their reaction is "meh, I just like going caching", then Groundspeak will chalk them up under "yea" unless they have evidence to the contrary.

 

If the PM renewal rate drops by half and people start archiving their caches in large numbers, with insufficient revenue from Geomate.jr sales to make up the shortfall, then I guess they will think again. My guess is that we will have a few more days of forum drama, a few coins go missing, a few more caches muggled than would otherwise have been the case, and a hundred thousand or so new people in the game. On balance I'd say that's a win.

[+Lightning Jeff]

I don't know why this Geomate doesn't sit well with me, I've been thinking about it all day, but it doesn't.

Not to make too big of a deal out of it, but to me it feels like a bit of a breach of trust. Until a few days ago, everyone who listed a cache here had a very good sense of what would happen to that listing, and who would have access to it. If you listed it as non-PMO, all registered users here could pull up the listing and get the coordinates, and premium members could get a PQ with your cache included. If you listed it as PMO, only premium members could get the coordinates. In either case, nobody who is not registered as a member on geocaching.com could have the coordinates to your cache (isolated sharing with non-members aside). Now, we learn that Joe Blow, who has never logged onto geocaching.com and may never do so, can nevertheless have access to the coordinates of your cache. I'm not saying there's any breach of the terms of service, since I'm sure Groundspeak covered themselves. But it does feel like a breach of trust.

Well since we can't stop it we need to educate the Newbies that come to Groundspeak about proper Cache etiquette, ie Trade Up, etc. because they sure didn't but any info about that on there website.

Yes, this does concern me. I've looked around the Geomate site quite a bit. Aside from a tiny CITO logo on one of the pages, I see no real discussion of proper etiquette. It goes beyond trading fairly. What about safety/preparedness, and treading lightly? (Stuff like this.) What I do see there are some videos. Yeah, I know they're promotional, but still, they bug me. One shows kids dancing around when they find the ammo box (we don't see what, if anything, they're trampling, but they're in a pretty tight bunch, apparently right where the box was hidden). In another, we see the kids opening a box. In neither case do we see any sign of trade items brought along, though of course the kids are excited, anticipating the fun things they're going to take from the box.

 

And this isn't just aimed at kids in families that already cache, it's aimed at people entirely new to the game. From their product sheet:

Get in on the geocaching fun with a Geomate.jr, the family-friendly, anytime, anywhere geocacher. Just switch it on and be directed to your closest geocache. It’s really that easy! With approximately 250,000 pre-loaded geocache locations in all 50 U.S. states, you and your family could be out enjoying your own outdoor adventure before the packaging even hits the floor!

Ugh. At least they didn't say "hits the ground."

[+whistler & co.]

Just saw this Press Release on Google News.

 

Here is a quote from that press release:

 

Pre-loaded with approximately 250,000 geocache locations covering all 50 U.S. states, the family-friendly Geomate.jr eliminates the traditional fuss of Internet connections, downloads, coordinates and preplanning to provide a spontaneous geocaching experience families can enjoy anytime, anywhere.

 

So I guess when I write "Please do not disturb any graves or headstones, and be aware that the cache is NOT in the stone wall" in one of my cache descriptions, it won't really make a difference because users of this device don't have to worry about the "traditional fuss" of "preplanning" like READING THE CACHE PAGE?!?!?!

 

If this device at least required one to set up a basic membership and THEN download caches (perhaps a built-in PQ filter could allow only traditional caches to be downloaded), I would feel better about it. How many people who are out on vacation and are bored might buy something like this, wantonly find and not rehide "as well or better" the caches they find, and then not log them online at all? Seems like the end result is going to be a big increase in missing caches, particularly around state parks, campgrounds, and vacation hotspots.

 

Furthermore, unsupervised kids and geocaching tend not to mix well. I am sure there are many examples of young cachers who display good judgement in all aspects of caching activity, but imagine parents setting loose a random pack of ten and twelve year olds to go hunt caches in your favorite cache-dense park or camping area! Adult newbies often inadvertently cause problems with caches through lack of caching skills and/or etiquette, and I can only imagine kids would be even worse (spoken as a parent and as one whose job involves working with children, by the way).

 

Because it does not make a direct interface with the geocaching website a requirment for use, this thing is a BAD idea!

[+Prime Suspect]

That's probably a good while away. And why do you assume that Groundspeak is the one doing the database culling? I think we could all come up with the criteria - cache must exist X number of months and must have been active for a certain percentage of that time, Difficulty and Terrain ceilings, percent of DNF ceiling, etc. I doubt it took more than a couple of people an afternoon to brainstorm that. The could then either run off the query (which only extracts waypoint ID, size, D/T, and coordinates, because that's all the unit holds) or let the manufacturer do it from a database copy. It's not rocket surgery.

 

I doubt that Groundspeak would let anyone else handle the gerbil's reigns like that. It would be out of character for them.

They already give access to Garmin. That's how they generate those maps on the Garmin site.

[+Prime Suspect]

So I guess when I write "Please do not disturb any graves or headstones, and be aware that the cache is NOT in the stone wall" in one of my cache descriptions, it won't really make a difference because users of this device don't have to worry about the "traditional fuss" of "preplanning" like READING THE CACHE PAGE?!?!?!

That right. AND THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Traditionals, by definitions, are findable by having only the coordinates. If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

A lot of people will, especially when traveling, load up their GPS with just Traditionals, because they can do impromptu caching without having to refer to the cache page.

[+DatCrazyMongoose]

Because it does not make a direct interface with the geocaching website a requirment for use, this thing is a BAD idea!

 

Even as the father of two children ages 10 and 6, and the owner of a cache with a children's playground/toys theme, this product is a HORRIBLE idea.

 

If my cache is on this POS, I will archive it and re-list it about 100ft away.

Edited May 14, 2009 by DatCrazyMongoose

[+Pirate Rat]

I thought this sounded like a good idea until I thought about it.

 

This has single handedly killed off GCs and TBs. There is no way to track

an item whose finder/placer does not have a geocaching account!

 

Yep, time to make all caches "member's only"...

 

"Look, mommy, I went geocaching! See what I found!"

(Billy opens up an ammocan and pours out film canisters and bisons.)

 

"It's okay daddy, I'll rehide them somewhere tomorrow!"

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

http://onlinegeocacher.com/articles/KICKIN...,14,09,06,05,16

[+whistler & co.]

So I guess when I write "Please do not disturb any graves or headstones, and be aware that the cache is NOT in the stone wall" in one of my cache descriptions, it won't really make a difference because users of this device don't have to worry about the "traditional fuss" of "preplanning" like READING THE CACHE PAGE?!?!?!

That right. AND THIS IS NOTHING NEW. Traditionals, by definitions, are findable by having only the coordinates. If there's information on the cache page that you consider to be critical that the cacher know, then you should have marked your cache as Mystery/Unknown.

 

A lot of people will, especially when traveling, load up their GPS with just Traditionals, because they can do impromptu caching without having to refer to the cache page.

 

I must have missed somethng in the guidelines, because I never thought that having information on the cache page about what NOT to do meant it had to be listed as a mystery/puzzle cache. For example, we have one cache on a small cliff that is accessible from the bottom and requires a "climb" of only about three feet to reach. We have a low terrain rating for this cache. If a cacher tried to access it from above, he could easily fall and become injured or even die. This is stated in the cache description page, and an adult would be able to reasonably assume that the terrain rating indicates that the cache requires no climbing. Yet a 12 year old kid might not possess such common sense and might think he needed to climb down to the cache, or even simply lie down on the cliff edge and try to feel for it. In your opinion, should this be listed as a mystery/puzzle simply because there is important info in the cache description?

 

Actually, thinking about it, I wonder if it might not be best to start archiving any of our caches that are in the least bit dangerous. I would hate to see a kid whose parents set him lose with this POS get hurt at one of our caches!

[+sbell111]

[+KoosKoos]

Just to clarify a few things (I asked the company):

 

(paraphrasing instead of direct quoting)

 

The Geomate.jr comes pre-loaded with about 250k geocache locations (US at this time).

 

They apply filtering in an effort to develop a list that is more family-friendly based on things like age of the geocache, time since last found, as well as remove the harder graded geocaches.

 

No filters on container size. "We considered removing micro-caches, but felt a higher density of geocaches would be more favorable."

 

Upgrade kit will be around $25 and allows you to update as many devices as you want.

 

The upgrade kit will allow you to download other batches of data as its available (all of the UK for example).

[+piper28]

BTW, as a note on cache attrition: In Michigan, we seem to on average lose between 50 and 100 caches a week (and at least during part of the year, gain 100-200 caches a week). There's obviously some seasonal variation in there. So we're losing about .5 to 1 percent of the caches in the state every week. I couldn't tell you the average age of a cache that goes archived, because that would take, well, more effort than I'm willing to expend at the moment . (Hmm, actually, we're up to about 12000 caches, so those percentages are a bit lower than what I said.)