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FTF ethics


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Nobody.

 

The owners request amounts to an ALR (Additional Logging Requirement) - those cannot be enforced.

 

If it was published or handed out - then it is fair game to the first person to get there.

 

The owner could have requested that the reviewer not publish it until a certain day - its been done before - work with your local reviewer to make such things happen.

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Well, I see both as making a mistake.

 

The CO could/should have asked the reviewer to 'hold' the listing and not publish it until the day of the event thereby preventing others from searching before the event. I can't guarantee the reviewer would be able to do it, but atleast it could have been asked.

 

The 'seekers' could/should have accepted the COs request and not searched until the event. But then again, it was a published cache that was available to be found and they were technically correct in searching for it.

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I'd say neither one did anything wrong, the owner can ask anything he wants to... and the finder can be nice and do it or decide to do whatever he wants...

 

On a side note, a funny story that seems to be on topic... There was a recent case in my home area where a cacher placed "tribute" caches to other cachers and asked that the cacher the cache was placed in tribute to was allowed to be the "FTF," well other people went and found the cache and had their logs deleted. Were they the "FTF ?" Some see it as an "award" to be handed out to someone, I see it as a simple fact, you were the first person to go find the cache... The cache owner thought that by deleting the logs of all the finders who found it before the desired finder, that when the desired finder found it he would then be the first to find... hmmm :rolleyes:

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The hider should have asked the reviewer to hold off publishing the cache until after the event took place. Then they could have handed out the coords and 'controlled' who got the FTF.

 

I'm sure anyone who is a serious FTF hound would really feel good about a gimme like that. :rolleyes:

Some tribute.

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Thanks to all for answers. I have understood only I have some troubles to understand wimseyguy. Sorry I am not native English speaker, so I do not understand if you are serious or ironic.

The hider should have asked the reviewer to hold off publishing the cache until after the event took place. Then they could have handed out the coords and 'controlled' who got the FTF.

Is it ethical to control by the owner who can get FTF, or you are ironic?

I'm sure anyone who is a serious FTF hound would really feel good about a gimme like that. :rolleyes:

Some tribute.

This I cannot understand at all. The FTF hound would really feel good about what? About to get this poured FTF or to take over the others attendees?

 

Thanks to all for your opinions.

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Sorry for not considering the language issue. I was both-serious and sarcastic, but not really ironic.

 

The first part about delaying publication is serious. That used to be pretty standard practice around here for event caches. If you show up at the event-you get first chance to find the caches hidden just for the event.

Since more cachers are playing paperless these days, the caches usually get published the night before.

 

The second part was a bit sarcastic, and again I apologize for that tone. I've never been into the FTF race game. But I have been a very competitive person in many other aspects of my life. I would consider a gift wrapped FTF to be tainted and not as valuable as one that was truly raced for against the other FTF hounds in the area.

 

If you are in a race, and racing to win, do you really want a head start, or to have the other competitors handicapped?

In my mind-once a cache is published, it is fair game for anyone to seek and find.

Edited by wimseyguy
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1) Owner asks the cachers do not hunt his cache because he prepared it for the event and he wants to organize collective FTF for all attendees.

2) The group of cachers does not accept the CO wishes and makes the night FTF before.

 

Who is violating any ethics?

 

The finders. Their refusual to honor the owners wishes is a sign of the respect they both have for the owner and deserve themselves.

 

A request to honor a date for an event is not an ALR since it's fair game at the event. They said "please don't look until a certain time". Not "you can't log if you don't put on a certain hat and post your photo".

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The cache has been published on the midnight before the event.

 

The COs request was: "The cache has been dedicated for common FTF sign of the all event attendees, so we ask any impatient FTF hounds to wait for the whole group." This was not event competition.

 

The FTF hounds (not event attendees) went to the woods on the night, after publishing, and found the cache early morning with the log: "Sorry, but we do not agree with this artificial (served) FTF. One has to fight for FTF."

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I'd say neither one did anything wrong, the owner can ask anything he wants to... and the finder can be nice and do it or decide to do whatever he wants...

 

On a side note, a funny story that seems to be on topic... There was a recent case in my home area where a cacher placed "tribute" caches to other cachers and asked that the cacher the cache was placed in tribute to was allowed to be the "FTF," well other people went and found the cache and had their logs deleted. Were they the "FTF ?" Some see it as an "award" to be handed out to someone, I see it as a simple fact, you were the first person to go find the cache... The cache owner thought that by deleting the logs of all the finders who found it before the desired finder, that when the desired finder found it he would then be the first to find... hmmm :rolleyes:

 

I wouldn't have deleted the logs. I'd have left them there for the whole community see see just how petty some can be that the they would steal the "tribute" away from a fellow cacher, just to get a FTF.

 

To the topic at hand.

We had a local cacher that held an event at a pizza place. She had booked the place for a certain time frame, but the lingerers far exceeded the time frame and held tables from other paying customers of the establishment. While the manager was understanding, he was also seeing his Saturday night, teenager money walking out the door because they couldn't get a table. She promised the manager if he let her have the same event a year later, she'd have the place cleared by 8:00 PM. For the next year's event, she pre-arraigned with our local reviewer to have ten caches published exactly at 8 PM. At 7:55, she handed out sheets of paper with the coordinates for the ten caches. The place was almost empty by 8, as everyone headed out on a mass FTF frenzy.

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The cache has been published on the midnight before the event.

 

The COs request was: "The cache has been dedicated for common FTF sign of the all event attendees, so we ask any impatient FTF hounds to wait for the whole group." This was not event competition.

 

The FTF hounds (not event attendees) went to the woods on the night, after publishing, and found the cache early morning with the log: "Sorry, but we do not agree with this artificial (served) FTF. One has to fight for FTF."

 

Considering the idea that everyone else in the local Geocaching community honored the request, who exactly were they fighting for FTF with? Personally, I'd be ashamed.

 

As has been pointed out in countless other threads, if you are truly in a FTF competition with other local Geocachers, yet, they are not competing, either out of respect for the cache owner request, or lack of knowledge of the caches exsistance, what have you won?

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I'm still kind of a newbie - been caching for 2 years but sporadically - so bear with me.

 

This IMO depends on what the "prize" was - FTF swag or just bragging rights.

 

If the cache owner wanted to offer an event-related FTF prize in the cache, he could have placed it right before the event, or handed it out to the winner at the event (put a FTF "ticket" in the cache that would have been worthless to anyone not related to the event).

 

If anybody found it and logged FTF before the event, so what?

 

But then, I am definitely not a FTF kind of person. I'm lucky to FIND it at all. :rolleyes:

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1) Owner asks the cachers do not hunt his cache because he prepared it for the event and he wants to organize collective FTF for all attendees.

2) The group of cachers does not accept the CO wishes and makes the night FTF before.

 

Who is violating any ethics?

 

I think that once a cache has been published then it's available for anyone who wants to find it.

 

There's nothing wrong in the cache owner requesting that local cachers hold back from finding it because he/she wants to manipulate the FTF but (as is evident from the log "Sorry, but we do not agree with this artificial (served) FTF. One has to fight for FTF") there will always be cachers who disagree with this concept.

 

If we had seen that request on a new cache then we would have complied with the owner's request just to avoid possible 'friction' and because FTF is not important to us. But I wouldn't condemn any cachers who decided to go against the request.

 

As others have mentioned, I think a better solution would have been to ask the reviewer if he/she could publish the cache a little later on the event day.

 

MrsB

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1) Owner asks the cachers do not hunt his cache because he prepared it for the event and he wants to organize collective FTF for all attendees.

2) The group of cachers does not accept the CO wishes and makes the night FTF before.

 

Who is violating any ethics?

 

The finders. Their refusual to honor the owners wishes is a sign of the respect they both have for the owner and deserve themselves.

 

A request to honor a date for an event is not an ALR since it's fair game at the event. They said "please don't look until a certain time". Not "you can't log if you don't put on a certain hat and post your photo".

 

:rolleyes: Who is violating any ethics?

The owner. His refusal to accord any honor whatever to the FTF. It's not FTF if it's fixed.

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Honoring a simple request is a courtesy.

Personally, when I play this game, I prefer to be courteous.

While it's certainly not necessary, it's good Karma.

Had I been involved in this, as the hider, I would've asked the Reviewer to withold publication till an appointed time.

Had I been involved in this as a seeker, I would've honored the simple, politely worded request, bypassing the cache for the time being.

Is either party wrong? I guess that depends on how you feel about such matters.

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1) Owner asks the cachers do not hunt his cache because he prepared it for the event and he wants to organize collective FTF for all attendees.

2) The group of cachers does not accept the CO wishes and makes the night FTF before.

 

Who is violating any ethics?

 

The finders. Their refusual to honor the owners wishes is a sign of the respect they both have for the owner and deserve themselves.

 

A request to honor a date for an event is not an ALR since it's fair game at the event. They said "please don't look until a certain time". Not "you can't log if you don't put on a certain hat and post your photo".

 

;) Who is violating any ethics?

The owner. His refusal to accord any honor whatever to the FTF. It's not FTF if it's fixed.

 

Seems like the organizer of the race gets to say when it begins and not the participants. Events are open to all. That's the starting gate.

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Seems like the organizer of the race gets to say when it begins and not the participants. Events are open to all. That's the starting gate.

Renegade Knight this was not race or competition. The wish of the owner was to make common FTF, means all the attendees will sign FTF.

 

Finally the result was:

1) The cache has been found only by the first, some of the attendees do not know the exact cache location till now. The attendees stand in the queue to sign the logbook, later the logbook has been sent round to sign it, because it was comfortless to stand in the queue.

2) Big disappointment of attendees, because they have got the promise from the owner and they looked forward to be the first (all of them), but some unfair cachers made FTF sign before.

3) The attendees asked the owner how to manage with FTF and the owner told them, that they are the first from moral point of view, because he does not accept the sign of this shameful cachers who did not accept his request.

4) The night cachers have been condemned by the community because they violent ethics.

5) The night cachers used argument that the request was not ethical.

 

Thanks to all for replays.

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The cache has been published on the midnight before the event.

 

The COs request was: "The cache has been dedicated for common FTF sign of the all event attendees, so we ask any impatient FTF hounds to wait for the whole group." This was not event competition.

 

The FTF hounds (not event attendees) went to the woods on the night, after publishing, and found the cache early morning with the log: "Sorry, but we do not agree with this artificial (served) FTF. One has to fight for FTF."

 

In an instance like this the people who found the cache first were FTF. There is no debating that point. They also appear to be jerks. That subject is for the community to decide.

 

As far as having a cache published and attempting to dictate who can be FTF, that is just plain silly.

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As far as having a cache published and attempting to dictate who can be FTF, that is just plain silly.

The whole FTF thing is way past silly at this stage. I would say that 80% of the angst I have seen here in the last couple of months is related to FTFs. FTF angst likely is responsible for the removal of ALR caches.

 

We need to come up with some clever forum code for FTF Angst.

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Well, I see both as making a mistake.

 

The CO could/should have asked the reviewer to 'hold' the listing and not publish it until the day of the event thereby preventing others from searching before the event. I can't guarantee the reviewer would be able to do it, but atleast it could have been asked.

 

The 'seekers' could/should have accepted the COs request and not searched until the event. But then again, it was a published cache that was available to be found and they were technically correct in searching for it.

 

I agree. The CO (unintentionally, most likely) baited a few "kids" into turning it into a communist vs capitalist dispute by not asking the reviewer to hold the listing until the event (or not holding onto the cache himself).

 

Capitalists score a point by the rules.

Communists score a point by inspiring the FTFers to make themselves look like impatient children.

 

Game on!

:D;)

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We need to come up with some clever forum code for FTF Angst.

I would welcome it, because I am interesting in the ethical principles generally.

 

But I am not sure what has to be a goal. The FTF is not covered by any guidelines, because it is not possible at all in my opinion. FTF is some artificial add-on what makes geocaching more competitive and more attractive for people who want to race. Geocaching is open activity based on some ethical principles what are not 100% unique. I am skeptic to create some FTF code. Just have a look this threat. Relatively simple "problem" and so many different opinions.

 

Basically the goecaching is declared as a non competitive activity. It is very cool to declare that "I am not interesting in the points". But this is not 100% true because people mostly count Founds, the most of cachers knows exactly the number of their Founds and they very often congratulate each other to some round numbers of Founds as 100, 200, 500... I see any schizophrenic aspect there.

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I'm sure anyone who is a serious FTF hound would really feel good about a gimme like that. :sad:

Some tribute.

 

Caches that are published at events are not at all gimmes. I used to run a weekday night event at a bar in a decent sized city. We would attract between 50 and 100 cachers. We would also release between 5 and 10 caches that night. Not all my work, I just put the word out and the local community saved up some hides. Our reviewer held off publishing until after the event.

 

The FTFP hounds loved it. Here there were, all in the same place, all at the same time, all handed 5 to 10 caches.

 

Now they needed to figure out HOW to get the most, or do they try and solve the puzzles and just get that one.

 

Most were found within half an hour, but I once got FTFP on a mystery cache the next day. I solved it by midnight, headed out and couldn't find it in the dark, so I came back an sunrise to make the finde.

 

The non-FTFP hounds just rolled their eyes and ordered another beer. Everyone was happy.

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I've gotten my share of FTF's, but I don't consider myself a FTF Hound - as in I don't go running out of the house when a new cache is published (did that once, ruined dinner on the stove and almost ruined the stove). I've found tributes accidently, or after they have been published for a week. I don't feel bad. I don't feel unethical. If you want a tribute to go to a certain cacher, send them the coordinates via email after you place and before you publish. Personally I would never want an FTF handed to me, at an event or as a tribute, let me get it fair or not at all.

 

I cache blind most of the time. I download points and go on a run without reading description or hint. This does get me in trouble when an owner makes a request like no night caching or save for so-and-so, but in my log I simply explain what happened and usually they understand, then I kind of get forced into reading the description when they have a new cache come out. I've gotten strings of FTF's not realizing they were FTF until I saw a blank log and great swag. (which I rarely trade)

 

I've never run into the event cache situation, but it's one thing to make the FTF and another to be smug, sarcastic or downright rude. (I've done that in my logs when beating a couple FTF hounds to caches down the street from their homes to prove a point) I've also gone out of my caching area for bulk FTF's published over a week prior, just to find out someone signed the log a day after it was published but never logged. Severe bummer, but part of the game.

 

This is only a game, right?

 

I've also had people log that they get up extra early to beat me to a cache first thing in the morning on my route into work about 3-4am. I've shaken a virtual fist (jokingly) at a couple of them, but it's all fun. I've also irritated some people who feel they "deserved" the FTF. (still trying to figure that one out). If you feel obliged to get up at 2am to beat me, more power to you. There is always the option to go out the night before.

 

We have a rude FTF hound in the area and so many people are sick of him, many have stopped hiding caches for a while because of him.

 

(edit add:) got an email from the above mentioned FTF hound about this post, hopefully we can work through what has some people all wound.

Edited by Unkle Fester
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We need to come up with some clever forum code for FTF Angst.

I would welcome it, because I am interesting in the ethical principles generally.

 

But I am not sure what has to be a goal. The FTF is not covered by any guidelines, because it is not possible at all in my opinion.

 

FTF is a valid label used to describe an activity done over and over. Eventually, over time all labels lose their original meanings, or mean somthing different than originally intended. Sometimes they are worshipped, despite what they are stuck onto. Sometimes they may give a peek into your unconsious mind, due to how you use them, and which ones you choose. People that spell everthing corectly are more succeptible. :)

If the label does not match, then ignore it.

However, FTF means simply first to find despite the type of competition.

 

 

 

FTF is some artificial add-on what makes geocaching more competitive and more attractive for people who want to race. Geocaching is open activity based on some ethical principles what are not 100% unique. I am skeptic to create some FTF code. Just have a look this threat. Relatively simple "problem" and so many different opinions.

 

Basically the goecaching is declared as a non competitive activity. It is very cool to declare that "I am not interesting in the points". But this is not 100% true because people mostly count Founds, the most of cachers knows exactly the number of their Founds and they very often congratulate each other to some round numbers of Founds as 100, 200, 500... I see any schizophrenic aspect there.

 

Geocaching is just simply a game. If some cachers want to compete, then it is their choice.

However, there are some "competitions" that just shouldn't be. If any group claims to "win" the human "race", they should immediately be placed last, and charged with interfering with the path of others.(as well as complaining about the other's paths, while bushwacking at the same time) :lol:

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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The FTF hounds (not event attendees) went to the woods on the night, after publishing, and found the cache early morning with the log: "Sorry, but we do not agree with this artificial (served) FTF. One has to fight for FTF."

Technically neither is wrong. If the cache has been published, it's free to be found whenever, as long as someone doesn't violate any laws such as not finding it at night if not allowed or something like that...

 

That said, I would honor what the cache owner wants because I think respecting the caching community is more important than finding a cache a few hours before someone else, but then again I'm not a big FTFr either. Ultimately, there are no rewards given on GC.com for FTFs, so does it really matter if it's found at 11 at night or 8 in the morning?

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Honoring a simple request is a courtesy.

Personally, when I play this game, I prefer to be courteous.

While it's certainly not necessary, it's good Karma.

Had I been involved in this, as the hider, I would've asked the Reviewer to withold publication till an appointed time.

Had I been involved in this as a seeker, I would've honored the simple, politely worded request, bypassing the cache for the time being.

Is either party wrong? I guess that depends on how you feel about such matters.

 

I agree with this. I'd prefer to respect the COs wishes and be courteous.

 

Of course, if the park has closing hours and was closed at the time of FTF, then the finders were most certainly wrong. Were they caught, they would be giving a bad name to our game.

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...In an instance like this the people who found the cache first were FTF. There is no debating that point....

 

In an instance like this the people who found the cache honoring the owners wishes were the FTF. There is no debating that point. Those who didn't play by the rules don't deserve the log. No rightful log. No FTF.

 

It's pretty simple as long as you think the cache owner has some say in their cache. If the cache owner isnt' allowed to set the rules for the finders then you are right, but in that world it's groundspeaks cache and they are fully liable for it.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I've gotten my share of FTF's, but I don't consider myself a FTF Hound - as in I don't go running out of the house when a new cache is published

 

 

Hmmm take a look at his Profile Page 7 FTFs on 4/27, 9 FTFs on 4/11, and 9 FTFs on 3/28 it would seem to me that no one would get that many by not rushing out. He says he is NOTa FTF HOUND then what would you call it.

 

Scubasonic

Edited by Scubasonic
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I've gotten my share of FTF's, but I don't consider myself a FTF Hound - as in I don't go running out of the house when a new cache is published

 

 

Hmmm take a look at his Profile Page 7 FTFs on 4/27, 9 FTFs on 4/11, and 9 FTFs on 3/28 it would seem to me that no one would get that many by not rushing out. He says he is NOTa FTF HOUND then what would you call it.

 

Scubasonic

 

Umm....

 

Does it really matter?

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...In an instance like this the people who found the cache first were FTF. There is no debating that point....

 

In an instance like this the people who found the cache honoring the owners wishes were the FTF. There is no debating that point. Those who didn't play by the rules don't deserve the log. No rightful log. No FTF.

 

It's pretty simple as long as you think the cache owner has some say in their cache. If the cache owner isnt' allowed to set the rules for the finders then you are right, but in that world it's groundspeaks cache and they are fully liable for it.

What does it mean "to play by the rules"? Do you mean that the owner wishes are superior to what? To all? If the owner's wish is out of law, physical principles or logic, the finder can just ignore caches like this? If the owner's requirement is, that the FTF can make only Johann Sebastian Bach, I can just ignore this cache?

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....What does it mean "to play by the rules"? Do you mean that the owner wishes are superior to what? To all? If the owner's wish is out of law, physical principles or logic, the finder can just ignore caches like this? If the owner's requirement is, that the FTF can make only Johann Sebastian Bach, I can just ignore this cache?

 

Paying by the rules in this case means honoring the owners stated request that the cache be available first for event attendees then "everone else." The truth here is that anyone could attent the event so nobody was excluded from the FTF race.

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It's starting to sound a bit like an Additional Logging Requirement which, as we know, now has to be an Additional Logging Request.

 

i.e. "If you want to log a FTF on my new cache then first you must have attended XXX geocaching event."

 

We would have honoured the request in this case but (as these forums prove over and over again) not every cacher plays the game with exactly the same "ethics".

 

MrsB

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Post the cache with the north pole as coordinates. When you are ready for people to find it change the coordinates to the correct lat-n-long.

 

If you move a cache more then a certain distance I think it is 500 ft it will have to be re-reviewed so that plan will not work.

 

Scubasonic

Edited by Scubasonic
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Seems like the organizer of the race gets to say when it begins and not the participants. Events are open to all. That's the starting gate.
Would it make any difference if the FTF log were something like this?
This was a nice surprise. We loaded the PQ for tonight's cache run, and this one showed up close to home. We found the cache, and the log was blank. FTF! Thanks for the cache!

 

edit: Sorry about jumping the gun. We didn't know this was supposed to be for your event until we logged it. Sounds like a fun event, but my shift starts in an hour, so I won't be there.

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Would it make any difference if the FTF log were something like this?
This was a nice surprise. We loaded the PQ for tonight's cache run, and this one showed up close to home. We found the cache, and the log was blank. FTF! Thanks for the cache!

 

edit: Sorry about jumping the gun. We didn't know this was supposed to be for your event until we logged it. Sounds like a fun event, but my shift starts in an hour, so I won't be there.

That could easily happen. I know cachers who don't read the descriptions until they get home to log the find.

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Would it make any difference if the FTF log were something like this?
This was a nice surprise. We loaded the PQ for tonight's cache run, and this one showed up close to home. We found the cache, and the log was blank. FTF! Thanks for the cache!

 

edit: Sorry about jumping the gun. We didn't know this was supposed to be for your event until we logged it. Sounds like a fun event, but my shift starts in an hour, so I won't be there.

That could easily happen. I know cachers who don't read the descriptions until they get home to log the find.

I did that here just recently. A cache was republished after being tweaked a bit. I waited about 4 days or so then went and found it. (hadn't read the page, just loaded it into the GPS, My bad I know) While logging it I read that the owner was requesting that the FTF went to someone who hadn't found the first version since the wps were reused.

 

I just posted a note to the page for the time being untill it is logged by someone else then I will log it. I don't want the FTF and I now know I wasn't the FTF. I have since heard that another cacher went and signed the back of the last page in the log book. He did a much better job of not stiring the pot then I did, but when it comes time to log his name was in the book.

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What a lot of angst over the FTF.

 

My thoughts: If the owner wanted to control who was the FTF then he shouldn't have submitted the cache in the first place. If you don't trust your reviewer to hold the cache until the event time, don't submit it and just give the coordinates to the attendees and then submit it.

 

Who cares if someone else scooped the FTF? If the intention was to share the FTF with everyone at the event, then most of those FTF claims would have been bogus as well -- after all, there can only be one true FTF, not 30.

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Seems like the organizer of the race gets to say when it begins and not the participants. Events are open to all. That's the starting gate.
Would it make any difference if the FTF log were something like this?
This was a nice surprise. We loaded the PQ for tonight's cache run, and this one showed up close to home. We found the cache, and the log was blank. FTF! Thanks for the cache!

 

edit: Sorry about jumping the gun. We didn't know this was supposed to be for your event until we logged it. Sounds like a fun event, but my shift starts in an hour, so I won't be there.

 

In my world is does. Intent matters. If the cache page said nothing. Thumbs up, job well done. If the cache page said "Please don't find the cache until the event starts" They should have read the cache page and not gone looking. If they didn't read the cache page and went like some do, The find can't really be taken back, but logging could be held off while they emailed the owner and said "whoops sorry, now what?"

 

It all depends on all the factors.

 

The better solution would have been to coordinate a timed "release" of the cache to match the event. Then nobody can jump the gun. Intensionally or Accidently. They could have also not even listed the cache until after the event and just give the coords to event attendee's at the right time.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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In my world is does. Intent matters.
Well, yes. There's no question that the actual FTF message showed a lack of respect for the cache owner. But my point is that it could have been an innocent mistake, and that the cache owner isn't entirely blameless either. As you said,
The better solution would have been to coordinate a timed "release" of the cache to match the event. Then nobody can jump the gun. Intensionally or Accidently. They could have also not even listed the cache until after the event and just give the coords to event attendee's at the right time.
If you don't want a cache found yet, then don't publish it. If you publish it, then don't be surprised when someone finds it.
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