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Challenge Caches


Semper Questio

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I just had a random thought last night so I thought I'd throw it out here for debate.

 

With the proliferation of "Challenge Caches", is it about time to create a special type for them? Their not necessarily mystery/unknown caches. Several of them give the correct final coordinates right up front. You just can't log them until you complete the required caches or caching tasks.

 

The only real benefit I see to another type is being able to filter them in PQ's without affecting, one way or the other, entire classes of whatever other type they may be classified as, be they trads, mystery/unknowns, or multis.

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...With the proliferation of "Challenge Caches", is it about time to create a special type for them?...

 

I've thought about them a bit ever since the "yeah, it's Ok if a cache owner logs their own challenge cache" concencus. Since it's as cheesey there as anywhere else to log your own caches it struck me that there was a reason that everone jumped on that bandwagon.

 

The reason turns out that challenge caches aren't really caches at all. They are achievments. Think of the Xbox and PS3 achiements for milestones in the games. Challenge caches should really be automatic awards of various milestons that show up in your profile in the new milestone section just for doing the work. Find every cache in your state? Here's your "State" icon. Find every cache in your city? "Here's your city Icon". Find a cache in every quad, "Here's your quad icon". Found 100, Here is your Centurion Icon and so on.

 

Unlike games, they are labor intensive as the geocaching landscape shifts as caches are archived, types are banned, new ones come out and whatnot. I'm sure the challenge posed could be met with more than a few different kinds of cache challenges. However it doesn't change that it would add another way to have fun for those who like the challenges.

 

Even if TBTB don't like stats, they have clearly shown they like this kind of stat er...achievment..I mean Challenge.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Not to be a n00b, but what's a Challenge cache?

 

It sounds like they just have some additional logging requirements, but I haven't run across one yet, so I don't know.

 

A challenge cache (CC) is a cache that has been placed that you can't go get until you go find other caches that meet some criteria. For instance, the is a CC that requires you hide or find a cache in every county in Texas before finding the final CC container itself.

 

They are not ALR's because you don't have to do anything extra to log them. They are more like puzzles in that you have to do something before going to find it.

Edited by Semper Questio
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Not to be a n00b, but what's a Challenge cache?

 

It sounds like they just have some additional logging requirements, but I haven't run across one yet, so I don't know.

From the guidelines for Mystery caches

Challenge caches incorporate special logging requirements and are listed as Mystery/Puzzle caches. Typically they require the seeker to have previously met a reasonable geocaching-related qualification (Waymarking and Wherigo qualify too, of course) such as first finding a cache in every county in your state. If you are thinking of creating such a cache, please include a note to the reviewer demonstrating either that you have met the challenge yourself, or that a substantial number of other geocachers would be able to do so.

 

They are not ALR's because you don't have to do anything extra to log them. They are more like puzzles in that you have to do something before going to find it.

Initially challenge caches were not hidden at the posted coordinates and required that you email the cache owner with proof of your accomplishment (list of caches you found) to get the coordinates. This of course meant that challenge caches violated guideline for puzzle caches that frowned on requiring email to get the coordinates of the cache. With the explosion in the number and types of challenges that were being made, the trend has been to list the true coordinates for the challenge cache and to allow the cache owner to delete finds if proof of meeting the challenge was not provided. They are, in effect ALRs. Some Challenges allow you to log a note and then change your note to a find when you complete the challenge, other require you to go back and find the cache again after you complete the challenge.
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I think making a challenge cache-type is like creation of locationless caches. The challenge cache-type doesn't fit what a type really is. It's kind of like the original travelbug, a cache page for an object that moved from cache to cache. (If I'm remembering right.)

 

I'm more of mind similar to RK's, but different. "Achievement Badges" would be a much better solution for Challenges. A different function like that of TBs. A challenge owner would set up something similar to bookmark to which anyone could add. For instance, a Delorme Challenge owner would have a challenge page which shows everyone who is working on the challenge. Click on that cacher and it comes up with a listing of the caches the cacher thinks fits the challenge. The challenge owner clicks a little button to confirm that the cache fits. This is just a helper function to keep track of which caches do qualify and which ones don't. When the cacher fulfills the challenge the owner clicks a box next to the cacher's name and gives that cacher his achievement badge.

 

An additional optional function could be bookmark-matching. The challenge owner could create a bookmark of all the caches that qualify. Only these caches can be added to the challenge list. Once a pre-set number of caches have been added to the list then the system would automatically add the badge with no challenge owner interaction.

 

After some thought, I'd probably prefer to completely remove the challenge cache from the system altogether. Any cache associated with a challenge would be on par with an event cache--not an official-its-own-cache-page-and-get-a-smilie cache. Instead of a smilie, you get an achievement badge.

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I think making a challenge cache-type is like creation of locationless caches. The challenge cache-type doesn't fit what a type really is. It's kind of like the original travelbug, a cache page for an object that moved from cache to cache. (If I'm remembering right.)

 

I'm more of mind similar to RK's, but different. "Achievement Badges" would be a much better solution for Challenges. A different function like that of TBs. A challenge owner would set up something similar to bookmark to which anyone could add. For instance, a Delorme Challenge owner would have a challenge page which shows everyone who is working on the challenge. Click on that cacher and it comes up with a listing of the caches the cacher thinks fits the challenge. The challenge owner clicks a little button to confirm that the cache fits. This is just a helper function to keep track of which caches do qualify and which ones don't. When the cacher fulfills the challenge the owner clicks a box next to the cacher's name and gives that cacher his achievement badge.

 

An additional optional function could be bookmark-matching. The challenge owner could create a bookmark of all the caches that qualify. Only these caches can be added to the challenge list. Once a pre-set number of caches have been added to the list then the system would automatically add the badge with no challenge owner interaction.

 

After some thought, I'd probably prefer to completely remove the challenge cache from the system altogether. Any cache associated with a challenge would be on par with an event cache--not an official-its-own-cache-page-and-get-a-smilie cache. Instead of a smilie, you get an achievement badge.

 

I agree with Coyote Red. I personally think challenge caches glorify lame caches, and grossly overrated (both terrain, and difficulty) caches, just so someone can meet a "silly challenge." I don't think they need their own icon.

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I agree with Coyote Red. I personally think challenge caches glorify lame caches, and grossly overrated (both terrain, and difficulty) caches, just so someone can meet a "silly challenge." I don't think they need their own icon.

 

I agree with the lupines (Kit Fox and Coyote Red). It would be cool to have a couple "Acheivements" that could be either pre-determined by Groundspeak, or set up by members. The Challenge Caches as described here though, just sound like special subset of ALR caches. I really don't like the idea that they're normal caches, that anyone can log, but if you can't prove the additional logging requirements, then your log gets deleted.. That sucks.

 

Achievements would be cool though.. At 100, 500 and 1000, 5000 caches would be cool ones. Also at least one cache in each state, at least one cache in each county ( easier for some states than others ). Placing a cache, placing 10 caches, placing 100 caches. 1 cache in each country in Europe. First Puzzle Cache, first multi-cache, first event. It would be neat to have these little badges show up in our profile.

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We have a series of "Challenge" caches here for significant milestones and landmarks. They are titled "Milestone 100, Milestone 200, etc. up to Milestone 900. Then they are Landmark 1000, Landmark 2000, etc up to (I think 7000). To log them your profile must show that you've found the appropriate number of caches, or more. And, for example, if you find Landmark #3000 and it is exactly your 3000th cache, your name is posted to the cache page.

 

I know it's silly but it is another "goal". And, face it, we all set little mini-goals everyday. This is just another one.

 

Little side note: when you run your stats and it lists your milestone caches, it will show up as the title of that milestone cache.

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The Achievement Badges is a good idea. Kids love them (and big kids too). I'm surprised that Groundspeak doesn't actively sell Achievement Badges/Coins (and gift boxes for them!!) for parents to give their kids that achieve various goals. Well, not just kids would want them.

 

Right now, as far as I know, you have to search various coin suppliers to find some of them.

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I just had a random thought last night so I thought I'd throw it out here for debate.

 

With the proliferation of "Challenge Caches", is it about time to create a special type for them? Their not necessarily mystery/unknown caches. Several of them give the correct final coordinates right up front. You just can't log them until you complete the required caches or caching tasks.

 

The only real benefit I see to another type is being able to filter them in PQ's without affecting, one way or the other, entire classes of whatever other type they may be classified as, be they trads, mystery/unknowns, or multis.

 

I love the idea, and I also think they should all be at the posted coordinates.

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I think its a great idea to separate out challange caches. Sure there are similarites to puzzle or traditional caches depending on how the owner has set them up, but I think there is enough of a difference to give them their own classification. I know there are plenty of people who don't like challange caches and separating them would make it easy for those who don't to ignore the entire classification. There's a couple of great ideas here for enhancing the challange cache. Also a feature could be added so that the chache coordinates could be hidden until the owner approved the members prequalifications to go find the final.

 

I've only just started to pay attention to the challange caches and meeting the qualifications for them. Here's my impressions so far:

 

1. I find myself researching the caches more. I know I should do this anyway but if theres only one or two caches in an area that fullfill a requirement I want to make sure that my chances of making the find are as good as possible and the best use of my caching time. How long has it been since its been logged? Are the last 20 logs dnfs? Do I need any special equipment such as boots, park fees, tools, ect. Are there any other caches or places of intrest I want to visit nearby or on the way?

 

2. It gives me one more excuse to go get those remote caches that will take most of a day to get. "Well of course I need to go all the way to Allendale County for one cache, Honey. Its the only cache available on p52. Yes Dear, I'm sure I need the fishing pole to find the cache." ;)

 

3. I get a little more feeling of acheivement. I mean there's always the sense of gratification on any cache you find, that "AHA!" moment when you solve a puzzle or spot the cache. Now I have that extra sense of satisfation crossing a requirement off my list. I think every one enjoys seeing progress toward a goal. Theres some recognition involved too. I mean be honest, if your working on a challenge don't you watch the cache and look to see who else is working on it, how far they are and who's finished?

 

4. I look forward to the final challenge. I have yet to complete a challenge but I'm close on one or two and I really hope the finals are a challenge. Sure, I understand that there are finals that are and or will be let downs as to the quality or location. Then again there are lots of caches that are let downs too. Its always important to remember that the hunt and the trek are their own rewards. Personally I beileve that a final should be the most challenging cache the owner has or can place.

 

Geocaching for me is about exploration, taking me to places I haven't been or wouldn't otherwise find. Its the road less traveled. Its like having a guide everywhere you go saying this is the place you got to see. A challenge is just one more tool, one more way to acheive that.

 

There will always be and always has been people who put out poor caches and practice poor caching etiquette. These same people will put them out weather they are for challenges or not. When cachers quit hunting these cheesy caches and leave constructive feed back in the logs then maybe peoplewill put out better quality caches. Unfortunately there will always be those that will never learn that its not about the numbers.

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Agreed. CCs need their own Type. What would ALSO be GREAT is IF ALL Challenge Caches were Posted at the State Capitol(or Nations Capital for National Cahllenges) so that someone would know that they had them all. Of course, the Actual Cache Coordinates would be Anywhere in the State.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

The Steaks

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I love the idea, and I also think they should all be at the posted coordinates.

Most of the challenge caches we've done have been at the posted coords.

 

With the guideline change regarding ALRs and making them optional, does that mean that someone can log a challenge cache without meeting the requirements?

 

Your log can no longer be deleted if you choose not to do the "required" thing at a cache such as wearing a hat, holding up a sign...something like that. It wouldn't surprise me to see someone logging a challenge cache without meeting the requirements, saying the guidelines no longer require them to do the optional steps required to log it.

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Achievements would be cool though.. At 100, 500 and 1000, 5000 caches would be cool ones. Also at least one cache in each state, at least one cache in each county ( easier for some states than others ). Placing a cache, placing 10 caches, placing 100 caches. 1 cache in each country in Europe. First Puzzle Cache, first multi-cache, first event. It would be neat to have these little badges show up in our profile.

TPTB have repeatedly made it clear that this will never happen, and I agree. They provide the ability to log caches as a way to keep track of your personal history and to report the status of the cache; Geocaching is not and never will be an official competition. There's already enough angst about people logging "fake" finds (claiming a find online without actually finding the cache) just to raise a single number. If you throw in lots of different pretty icons then you'll have an explosion of fake logging. Also, you already get an "achievement icon" for finding your first mystery, first multi, etc. It's on your profile page.

 

As for a new cache type for challenges... well, at first glance I agree. Clear up the whole ALR issue (yes, challenge caches have ALRs), separate them out from puzzles (some people like puzzles and dislike challenge caches and vice-versa), and add a pretty new icon for everyone to acquire. But on further consideration I think it's a bad idea.

 

First, someone would have to define a "Challenge Cache" (actually, because of the ALR exemption, someone needs to do this anyway). Who can decide what is a CC? Filling out the D/T grid, DeLorme grids, Alphabet, and counties are fairly popular in the USA. Can I create a CC such that you have to, say, find two caches separated by at least a mile vertical distance in the same day? What about find a series of caches where the first letter in the cache name spells your trail name? If the reviewer is responsible for this, then you're adding a lot of work to their (unpaid) job and it's starting to look like the well-loved "Wow" factor that helped eliminate Virtual caches.

 

Second, how many CCs of the same type are allowed? As far as I know, there's only one "County Challenge" in Tennessee, USA. There's really no incentive for someone else to add a second challenge cache in the same state because it's just another "Mystery" cache. But if you add a new icon then "TN County Challenges" will pop up all over the place. If TPTB limit the number (say, one county challenge per state), then people will complain because they want the icon but the only challenge cache is hundreds of miles away.

 

Third, CCs are still a relatively USA-specific phenomenon and are not followed by the masses. Unless you happen to have a challenge cache in your normal search area (or read the forums), you might not even know they exist. Everything changes if everyone knows about them. I've already heard of people intentionally posting incorrect D/T ratings to fill out a rare grid square (for the well-rounded cacher challenge). If CCs go mainstream then that problem will get worse. You'll suddenly have 5.0/4.5 caches in downtown Seattle, and LPCs rated as 4.5/1.5. Ask reviewers about the numbers of caches that start with "X" or "Q" that show up right after someone publishes an "Alphabet Challenge" in the area.

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But on further consideration I think it's a bad idea.

I concur.

 

While I like the idea of stats, challenges and icons, way too many folks manipulate the system for these things. What would be a good thing turns into a bad thing. Find counts alone should point this out. Then add listings of micros as smalls, challenge caches as 5/5's, etc. The more you add to a system so folks get more "reward" the more the system is likely to be manipulated.

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I've already heard of people intentionally posting incorrect D/T ratings to fill out a rare grid square (for the well-rounded cacher challenge). If CCs go mainstream then that problem will get worse. You'll suddenly have 5.0/4.5 caches in downtown Seattle, and LPCs rated as 4.5/1.5.

 

Could you be specific? Most challenges have limitations on using caches that are published after the CC is published for just this reason. Many also can/do disqualify caches that have had their ratings (WRC), name (Alphabet), coords (DeLorme/County), etc. changed.

 

As far as CCs go, I like them, don't want them to go away, and don't really care if there is a new icon or not. I can use bookmarks to find them and GSAK to filter them in or out as well as maintain their requirements. CCs are just another way that GC users have brought creativity into the game we enjoy. Perhaps at the most, an attribute could be added. That would help those that don't like them to filter them out of PQs.

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I've already heard of people intentionally posting incorrect D/T ratings to fill out a rare grid square (for the well-rounded cacher challenge). If CCs go mainstream then that problem will get worse. You'll suddenly have 5.0/4.5 caches in downtown Seattle, and LPCs rated as 4.5/1.5.

Could you be specific? Most challenges have limitations on using caches that are published after the CC is published for just this reason. Many also can/do disqualify caches that have had their ratings (WRC), name (Alphabet), coords (DeLorme/County), etc. changed.

Unfortunately, I can't be more specific. But I do remember at least two posts that mentioned hiders intentionally falsifying D/T ratings. One was a cache that required climbing equipment but was listed as a 4.5. When questioned, the owner said it was because the area needed a cache with that D/T combination. I don't remember the specifics of the other memory.

 

The "no caches hidden after my cache" restriction works to prevent an immediate rush of new caches that are hidden specifically to meet challenge requirements, but fails in the long term. The "no caches hidden after" date has to keep moving up or else you run out of caches that meet the requirements as old caches get archived.

 

As far as CCs go, I like them, don't want them to go away, and don't really care if there is a new icon or not. I can use bookmarks to find them and GSAK to filter them in or out as well as maintain their requirements. CCs are just another way that GC users have brought creativity into the game we enjoy. Perhaps at the most, an attribute could be added. That would help those that don't like them to filter them out of PQs.
I also like CCs and participate when I can. I'm working on my D/T grid (17 left), various county and DeLorme challenges, and I have a route mapped out for a local "one fine day" challenge (at least 6 different cache types in a specific state in a single day). I just don't think they could survive being their own cache type.

 

However, I think a new attribute (to help with PQ filtering) is a good idea.

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Nice post J-Way. I think you nailed all the reasons that Challenge Caches need to remain where they are, a sub-set of Mystery.

 

I own a couple and I enjoy working on them, a boost to get out and do some caching that's out of my usual routine, but in the end, it's just another cache. And often, not all that special in the cache itself. The two I own are both just another ammo can in the woods.

 

People seem to enjoy building the bookmarked lists as much as or more than finding the cache itself. And yeah, before I put out my A-Z cache (only one traditional hide per bookmarked list) I hid an "X" and "Z" multicache.

Both caches were on the drawing board before I got to thinking about the A-Z cache, I just paid attention to the naming, but i concur that creating a Challenge Cache type with it's own icon would drive manipulation of listings to create caches for the nearby Challenges.

 

I really like cache at coords as opposed to "email me for coords". There's a challenge cache along a route I drive pretty often where the cache itself isn't anywhere I want to stop and find a cache. Knowing upfront where it is sure beats building the list, getting the coords then not bothering to get out of the car to make the find.

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