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Friends helping friends with an FTF


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I got my first FTF on a cache 2 weekends ago at an easter themed event here in SoCal. The organizers of the event intended for the new caches for the event to have been published at midnight the night before the event. Unfortunately, due to a couple of factors I think, the caches were not published prior to the event at all. Instead, the organizers had to hand us all printed sheets with lists of coordinates at the begining of the event, and had us all wait until everyone had been able to download them from his computer to their GPSrs before leaving to hunt them.

 

The caches were published almost a week later.

 

Does this negate my lonely FTF? I wouldn't think so. A certain set of unfortunate circumstances caused the 66 caches she'd placed to not be published when she thought they would. So, if you go onto any of those cache pages, you'll see logs dated before the cache publication log. Because we found it before it was officially listed.

 

I don't see that there's any real problem with people getting to caches before they are published here. FTF is a mini-game that some people play in addition to the meat of the game as defined by Geocaching.com. Play it how you want to, but keep in mind that it is all just a game, a fun thing to do in your spare time. No need to be hatin' on people for it :P

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Regardless, you are providing a definitive definition that does not exist in the Groundspeak rules.

No your right it doesn't.

 

But if FTF stands for First to Find - then the definition is clear. First is first - not second or third or fourth or first after some event has occured.

 

And find is clear - if you already know where it is - you can't "find" it. You have to seek to find.

I'll happily 'agree to disagree' with you, but the definition is far from "clear". The only reason to give a friend pre-knowledge of a cache is precisely so he can circumvent 'fair play' and log a FTF. What other reason is there? This practice would probably not exist if no one cared about FTFs. In the spirit of fairness, I have no problem logging a FTF if someone previously signed it while placing it with the owner or beta-tested it (though I haven't done it myself).

 

Regarldless, you are making up a definition for a loosely bandied about term, one for which there is no formal definition. 'First to Find' doesn't necessarily literally mean first to find any more that 'Death March' means actually dying while on a long hike.

 

Now you are providing a definitive definition that does not exist in the Groundpeak rules (actually they are guidelines).

Just because you cannot fathom another reason for this behavior (based on YOUR biased view of 'fair play') that doesn't mean other reasons don't exist.

There are plenty of reasons this can happen. What if I want to have some fun on a holiday with my friends and hide some caches for them to find in the forest while we are camping? Then, after the trip, I decide to make them permanent and ask for them to be listed on this site. Sorry if that steps on your version of 'fair play'.

Do all cachers have to take people that want to play the FTF game into account when they place a cache?

I don't think so.

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I have been caching for less then a year, and YES am a FTF hound or whatever you want to call it 242 FTFs and 2269 finds. The bottom line is that the first person to find it is the FTF end of story, however they may do it is what I have learned. How do you know he doesn't live closer and just wrote down the wrong date......It happens. Just last night I knew that their were 2 new FTFs coming out. Didn't have any other info but that turns out Geocaching was having problems with their Notification feature, cause the cache owner called to see if I had gotten them cause they came out 4 hours earlier with no notification did a quick zip code from home search, and there they were went out and got em.

 

Improvise and overcome is what I always say.

 

Scubasonic

Edited by Scubasonic
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I think we need a new term to help designate what you are. You are clearly the FTFAP (First to Find After Publication).

 

I coined the term FTFP for this very situation, FTF before publication. Even got the license plate for it!

 

1971e1c2-ae02-48ad-a3cd-4f79ae292964.jpg

 

(Edited to add "FTF before publication" to distinguish it from my specific situation which did not involve the hider giving the coords out early.)

 

I think your missing a letter in your License plate shouldn't it be FTFAP (First To Find After Publication) man what a bummer.

 

Scubasonic

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at 10:19 pm mst a notification of a cache was emailed to me. i recognized the area as being less than a mile from my home. i hopped in the car and at 10:23 was on site.

 

Something that I've noticed about email notifications, at least when I receive them, is that they may or may not be arriving at the same time that others receive them.

 

One of my caching buddies frequently calls me to see if I'm going to find "the new cache that just came out". he frequently receives email notifications before I do. Sometimes there can be a long lapse in their arrival in my inbox.

 

Just wondering out loud, here.......

 

Maybe not all notifications are sent at the exact same time?

 

This is absolutely the case. I started hidng just this past week. On my second hide, one of the early logs questioned how the cache "popped" on his device, he left the house within 10 minutes, drove a short distance to the site, found the cache, and found that he had been beaten by several minutes (maybe more).

 

I absolutely did not inform anyone, nor do I even know the FTF cacher. So, this scenario can be the ONLY explanation.

Edited by keldar
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I think your ire is being caused by unreasonable expectations.

In the OP's example, hiding and hunting caches aren't the only games being played.

There's also the FTF Game going on, which is a completely different critter all together.

Because not all of us opt to participate in the FTF Game, we might occasionally run afoul of those who do.

You should be gentle in your critiques, because these folks aren't playing the same game you are.

They are having fun their way. You are also free to have fun your way. Right & wrong don't really come into play here.

 

Forgive me, but this the most bizarre assertion yet. right and wrong dont come into play here? so I guess this game is all anarchy?

So I could say I hide a cache and publish coordinates and have people go find it after never hiding anything at all? Just to watch people go nuts?

I could publish coordinates in the side of a cliff just to watch people try to get it (but tell Groundspeak it is well away from the cliff)?

 

FTF is part of geocaching. what is it that you are finding? hey, a geocache.

A big part of this geocaching game is that a lot of strangers are joining together here and doing something together. We may not see each other or meet, but everything we do here in this game reflects on the game.

 

It is a game of people holding to their word and not just taking a collection of all the ammo boxes listed online. Not hiding things in unsafe places, no matter what they tell Groundspeak. Not just clearing out all of the stuff out of every cache they come across. Keeping a low profile so strangers don't take the caches and ruin our game, not geo-trashing the environment in finding caches so parks don't start to disallow caches to be hidden there. etc, etc, etc.

 

People who come in and think there is no right and wrong here will ruin the game. It is amazing something like this has survived in this culture of greed and meanness as is. This game relies on others to keep a minimum honesty to the community in order for it to survive. I reiterate: IN ORDER FOR THIS GAME TO SURVIVE. Do you think this game could not be outlawed? It would not be hard. One friend I told about it is dead set against it because of the false bomb alerts that have been caused by it. Get enough of the public against us and you could get arrested trying to find a cache. Don't think it couldn't happen. And then don't think there is no right and wrong in this game.

 

Now back to the relatively minor issue of first to find rights.

If there IS a competition for first to find, we all know its not fair to fair competition to give some competitors a one day lead. This is grade school math. Something we all learned back then. Now it is your choice how you wish to play the game, you can log finds all day that you didn't find and I really don't care, but don't pretend that you are playing fair to other players, and don't pretend that you are fairly getting a first to find. If you want to do it, do it, just know you're not fooling anyone around here.

 

I like what someone else said:

QUOTE(DarkZen and Beautiful @ Apr 15 2009, 02:50 PM)

I'll happily 'agree to disagree' with you, but the definition is far from "clear". The only reason to give a friend pre-knowledge of a cache is precisely so he can circumvent 'fair play' and log a FTF. What other reason is there? This practice would probably not exist if no one cared about FTFs. In the spirit of fairness, I have no problem logging a FTF if someone previously signed it while placing it with the owner or beta-tested it (though I haven't done it myself).

 

Now if you want to play that way, that is your business. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It really doesn't matter. It hurts the integrity of the game a bit, but the game will survive it so it's not a big deal. (It mostly reflects on the few doing it anyway). But I hope in your post suggesting there is no right and wrong in geocaching you will not do anything that really matters that will really spoil the game for everyone.

 

Off my soapbox. Man I have to burn that thing really.

Edited by Sol seaker
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Regardless, you are providing a definitive definition that does not exist in the Groundspeak rules.

No your right it doesn't.

 

But if FTF stands for First to Find - then the definition is clear. First is first - not second or third or fourth or first after some event has occured.

 

And find is clear - if you already know where it is - you can't "find" it. You have to seek to find.

I'll happily 'agree to disagree' with you, but the definition is far from "clear". The only reason to give a friend pre-knowledge of a cache is precisely so he can circumvent 'fair play' and log a FTF. What other reason is there? This practice would probably not exist if no one cared about FTFs. In the spirit of fairness, I have no problem logging a FTF if someone previously signed it while placing it with the owner or beta-tested it (though I haven't done it myself).

 

Regarldless, you are making up a definition for a loosely bandied about term, one for which there is no formal definition. 'First to Find' doesn't necessarily literally mean first to find any more that 'Death March' means actually dying while on a long hike.

 

Now you are providing a definitive definition that does not exist in the Groundpeak rules (actually they are guidelines).

Just because you cannot fathom another reason for this behavior (based on YOUR biased view of 'fair play') that doesn't mean other reasons don't exist.

There are plenty of reasons this can happen. What if I want to have some fun on a holiday with my friends and hide some caches for them to find in the forest while we are camping? Then, after the trip, I decide to make them permanent and ask for them to be listed on this site. Sorry if that steps on your version of 'fair play'.

Do all cachers have to take people that want to play the FTF game into account when they place a cache?

I don't think so.

I'm not doubting that you can dream up some tortured hypothetical to shoe-horn your pet theory into, but you've drifted a little far afield of the OP at this point. You're pretending the phenomenon of COs giving friends coordinates before publication so they can log a FTF doesn't exist. We all know it does. For those of us who pay to get early notification, this clearly is not in the spirit of fair play. As paulbarratt said, "It devalues premium membership when people do this".

 

But at this point you've flip-flopped again - arguing without staying on message. If you don't want to log a FTF in this manner - don't! Simple. But the OP asked a question, "Is this a common practice among cachers?" and opened up the discussion. I haven't logged a FTF in this manner but I wouldn't hold it against someone who did. But the point you and I were arguing is (was?) is there a hard and fast dictionary definition for FTF. You say yes, I say no. I can't prove or cite a negative so the ball is in your court if you want to continue this. But frankly I'm pretty much done with it.

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Forgive me, but this the most bizarre assertion yet. right and wrong dont come into play here?

OK, I'll pretend for a moment that you really can't grasp such a simple concept, and I'll spell it out for you:

When you say "here" as in "right and wrong don't come into play here", I assume from the thread title that you are talking about the FTF race. Correct? You're not making some sort of sweeping statement about geocaching in general are you? In order for their to be "right and wrong" there must be some form of established order for comparison. In most games these would be referred to as "The Rules". When a question comes up regarding the rightness or wrongness of a particular action during a particular activity, someone whips out "The Rules" and makes a decision.

 

With that in mind, can you tell me what "The Rules" say about the FTF race? No? That's right. We don't have rules. So, can you tell me what "The Guidelines" have to say about the FTF race? Eh? What's that? I can't hear you. Them dang crickets are making too much racket.

 

You ask if Anarchy reigns. Perhaps it does? Unless, of course, you can provide a link detailing exactly what the rules for the FTF game are.

If you cannot, then my version of the rules is every bit as valid as yours.

A bit of Sociological trivia:

 

Q ) An environment where one person's rules are as valid, (or invalid), as anyone else's would be defined as what?

A ) _________________

(Hint: Rhymes with manarchy)

 

FTF is part of geocaching.

Correction: FTF is part of the game you play. It's not part of the game everyone plays. It most certainly is NOT an officially sanctioned part of Geocaching. Since you seem to be confused on this issue, I've linked you some light reading that should help. Getting Started With Geocaching, Resources, Frequently Asked Questions A thorough read of those pages will demonstrate that Groundspeak has absolutely no rules, guidelines or even suggestions regarding how the FTF game is played. In fact, the only place I could find where the phrase FTF is mentioned at all is the Glossary of Terms. It says, "FTF

First to Find. An acronym written by geocachers in physical cache logbooks or online when logging cache finds to denote being the first to find a new geocache." You'll note the glaring omital of post/pre/etc publication silliness. If you had been paying attention, you would've read several comments in this thread from folks who don't give two hoots about the whole FTF thing. Based solely on this, I would think your theory that "FTF is part of geocaching" holds little water.

 

 

People who come in and think there is no right and wrong here will ruin the game.

What a twist. If you ever tire of your current profession, might I suggest trying on politics? I think you have a natural talent for it. I would suggest though, that you sprinkle your doom & gloom diatribes with the phrase "It's for the Chilren <sic>" to maximize emotional effect. Or are you seriously trying to argue that someone claiming a FTF on a cache that hasn't been published yet is going to "ruin the game"? Do you honestly believe that, because Groundspeak has no rules regarding the whole FTF thing that there is no right or wrong in the game? Surely not.

(Besides, it was proven many years ago, right here in these forums, that Snoogans will be the death of geocaching) :)

 

If there IS a competition for first to find, we all know its not fair to fair competition to give some competitors a one day lead.

If there IS NOT a competition for FTF, then the concept of fairness never enters into play, right?

Just trying to use your logic. This is a key element here, so pay attention: The FTF game is one played by individuals. Each individual decides for themselves if they want to play. If I, as a cache hider, decide I don't want to play the FTF game, and I give my buddy the coords to the cache I just hid before hitting the publish button, I exist outside the whole "fair play" debate. If my buddy decides he doesn't want to play your particular version of the FTF game, and goes out to find my cache prior to publication, he is also outside the "fair play" debate. The notion of "fair play" can only exist when every single person is playing the exact same game, the exact same way, with the exact same resources.

That's why marathon runners aren't allowed to drive to the finish line. It wouldn't be "fair".

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I think your ire is being caused by unreasonable expectations.

In the OP's example, hiding and hunting caches aren't the only games being played.

There's also the FTF Game going on, which is a completely different critter all together.

Because not all of us opt to participate in the FTF Game, we might occasionally run afoul of those who do.

You should be gentle in your critiques, because these folks aren't playing the same game you are.

They are having fun their way. You are also free to have fun your way. Right & wrong don't really come into play here.

Forgive me, but this the most bizarre assertion yet. right and wrong dont come into play here? so I guess this game is all anarchy?

So I could say I hide a cache and publish coordinates and have people go find it after never hiding anything at all? Just to watch people go nuts?

I could publish coordinates in the side of a cliff just to watch people try to get it (but tell Groundspeak it is well away from the cliff)?

 

FTF is part of geocaching. what is it that you are finding? hey, a geocache.

A big part of this geocaching game is that a lot of strangers are joining together here and doing something together. We may not see each other or meet, but everything we do here in this game reflects on the game.

 

It is a game of people holding to their word and not just taking a collection of all the ammo boxes listed online. Not hiding things in unsafe places, no matter what they tell Groundspeak. Not just clearing out all of the stuff out of every cache they come across. Keeping a low profile so strangers don't take the caches and ruin our game, not geo-trashing the environment in finding caches so parks don't start to disallow caches to be hidden there. etc, etc, etc.

 

People who come in and think there is no right and wrong here will ruin the game. It is amazing something like this has survived in this culture of greed and meanness as is. This game relies on others to keep a minimum honesty to the community in order for it to survive. I reiterate: IN ORDER FOR THIS GAME TO SURVIVE. Do you think this game could not be outlawed? It would not be hard. One friend I told about it is dead set against it because of the false bomb alerts that have been caused by it. Get enough of the public against us and you could get arrested trying to find a cache. Don't think it couldn't happen. And then don't think there is no right and wrong in this game.

 

Now back to the relatively minor issue of first to find rights.

If there IS a competition for first to find, we all know its not fair to fair competition to give some competitors a one day lead. This is grade school math. Something we all learned back then. Now it is your choice how you wish to play the game, you can log finds all day that you didn't find and I really don't care, but don't pretend that you are playing fair to other players, and don't pretend that you are fairly getting a first to find. If you want to do it, do it, just know you're not fooling anyone around here.

 

I like what someone else said:

I'll happily 'agree to disagree' with you, but the definition is far from "clear". The only reason to give a friend pre-knowledge of a cache is precisely so he can circumvent 'fair play' and log a FTF. What other reason is there? This practice would probably not exist if no one cared about FTFs. In the spirit of fairness, I have no problem logging a FTF if someone previously signed it while placing it with the owner or beta-tested it (though I haven't done it myself).
Now if you want to play that way, that is your business. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It really doesn't matter. It hurts the integrity of the game a bit, but the game will survive it so it's not a big deal. (It mostly reflects on the few doing it anyway). But I hope in your post suggesting there is no right and wrong in geocaching you will not do anything that really matters that will really spoil the game for everyone.

 

Off my soapbox. Man I have to burn that thing really.

Nice rant, but it really doesn't change the simple fact that the FTF game really is a separate game than standard geocaching. This can be evidenced by the fact that FTF hunters are upset that they aren't getting FTFs that they feel they deserve and the very fact that caches continue to be found and enjoyed after the first find has been posted.

 

Some cachers reward FTFs while others ignore the entire FTF issue. Still others invite others to find the cache prior to listing on GC.com while others have created ALRs, puzzles, and difficult hides just to keep their cache out of the FTF game.

 

Still, nice rant.

Edited by sbell111
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Still, nice rant.

Yeah, I'd give it a 6, out of a possible 10 points.

It's well laid out, but doesn't touch upon enough current hot topics to go much higher.

If he had mentioned the fact that every time someone cheats on an FTF, Gaia kills a puppy, he would've got at least a 7.

Heck, he could've got a 6.5 with a simple, "Don't do global warming, cuz global warming is bad, um'kay?"

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Forgive me, but this the most bizarre assertion yet. right and wrong dont come into play here?

OK, I'll pretend for a moment that you really can't grasp such a simple concept, and I'll spell it out for you:

When you say "here" as in "right and wrong don't come into play here", I assume from the thread title that you are talking about the FTF race. Correct? You're not making some sort of sweeping statement about geocaching in general are you? In order for their to be "right and wrong" there must be some form of established order for comparison. In most games these would be referred to as "The Rules". When a question comes up regarding the rightness or wrongness of a particular action during a particular activity, someone whips out "The Rules" and makes a decision.

 

With that in mind, can you tell me what "The Rules" say about the FTF race? No? That's right. We don't have rules. So, can you tell me what "The Guidelines" have to say about the FTF race? Eh? What's that? I can't hear you. Them dang crickets are making too much racket.

 

You ask if Anarchy reigns. Perhaps it does? Unless, of course, you can provide a link detailing exactly what the rules for the FTF game are.

If you cannot, then my version of the rules is every bit as valid as yours.

A bit of Sociological trivia:

 

Q ) An environment where one person's rules are as valid, (or invalid), as anyone else's would be defined as what?

A ) _________________

(Hint: Rhymes with manarchy)

 

FTF is part of geocaching.

Correction: FTF is part of the game you play. It's not part of the game everyone plays. It most certainly is NOT an officially sanctioned part of Geocaching. Since you seem to be confused on this issue, I've linked you some light reading that should help. Getting Started With Geocaching, Resources, Frequently Asked Questions A thorough read of those pages will demonstrate that Groundspeak has absolutely no rules, guidelines or even suggestions regarding how the FTF game is played. In fact, the only place I could find where the phrase FTF is mentioned at all is the Glossary of Terms. It says, "FTF

First to Find. An acronym written by geocachers in physical cache logbooks or online when logging cache finds to denote being the first to find a new geocache." You'll note the glaring omital of post/pre/etc publication silliness. If you had been paying attention, you would've read several comments in this thread from folks who don't give two hoots about the whole FTF thing. Based solely on this, I would think your theory that "FTF is part of geocaching" holds little water.

 

 

People who come in and think there is no right and wrong here will ruin the game.

What a twist. If you ever tire of your current profession, might I suggest trying on politics? I think you have a natural talent for it. I would suggest though, that you sprinkle your doom & gloom diatribes with the phrase "It's for the Chilren <sic>" to maximize emotional effect. Or are you seriously trying to argue that someone claiming a FTF on a cache that hasn't been published yet is going to "ruin the game"? Do you honestly believe that, because Groundspeak has no rules regarding the whole FTF thing that there is no right or wrong in the game? Surely not.

(Besides, it was proven many years ago, right here in these forums, that Snoogans will be the death of geocaching) :)

 

If there IS a competition for first to find, we all know its not fair to fair competition to give some competitors a one day lead.

If there IS NOT a competition for FTF, then the concept of fairness never enters into play, right?

Just trying to use your logic. This is a key element here, so pay attention: The FTF game is one played by individuals. Each individual decides for themselves if they want to play. If I, as a cache hider, decide I don't want to play the FTF game, and I give my buddy the coords to the cache I just hid before hitting the publish button, I exist outside the whole "fair play" debate. If my buddy decides he doesn't want to play your particular version of the FTF game, and goes out to find my cache prior to publication, he is also outside the "fair play" debate. The notion of "fair play" can only exist when every single person is playing the exact same game, the exact same way, with the exact same resources.

That's why marathon runners aren't allowed to drive to the finish line. It wouldn't be "fair".

Well put! I agree with your comments and observations in each of your posts in this thread fully! Thank you for having taken the time to spell all that out. I just love it when folks, particularly disgruntled FTF-wannabes, sail in here and try to tell everyone else that various aspects of the game -- including particularly FTF -- must be played only according to their rules, and then, of course, in quick order, they invoke notions of "right" and "wrong" or "this is what God wants" to back up their demands for how the game should be played. Quite bizarre!

Link to comment

...

Regardless, you are providing a definitive definition that does not exist in the Groundspeak rules.

No your right it doesn't.

 

But if FTF stands for First to Find - then the definition is clear. First is first - not second or third or fourth or first after some event has occured.

 

And find is clear - if you already know where it is - you can't "find" it. You have to seek to find.

I'll happily 'agree to disagree' with you, but the definition is far from "clear". The only reason to give a friend pre-knowledge of a cache is precisely so he can circumvent 'fair play' and log a FTF. What other reason is there? This practice would probably not exist if no one cared about FTFs. In the spirit of fairness, I have no problem logging a FTF if someone previously signed it while placing it with the owner or beta-tested it (though I haven't done it myself).

 

Regarldless, you are making up a definition for a loosely bandied about term, one for which there is no formal definition. 'First to Find' doesn't necessarily literally mean first to find any more that 'Death March' means actually dying while on a long hike.

 

Now you are providing a definitive definition that does not exist in the Groundpeak rules (actually they are guidelines).

Just because you cannot fathom another reason for this behavior (based on YOUR biased view of 'fair play') that doesn't mean other reasons don't exist.

There are plenty of reasons this can happen. What if I want to have some fun on a holiday with my friends and hide some caches for them to find in the forest while we are camping? Then, after the trip, I decide to make them permanent and ask for them to be listed on this site. Sorry if that steps on your version of 'fair play'.

Do all cachers have to take people that want to play the FTF game into account when they place a cache?

I don't think so.

I'm not doubting that you can dream up some tortured hypothetical to shoe-horn your pet theory into, but you've drifted a little far afield of the OP at this point. You're pretending the phenomenon of COs giving friends coordinates before publication so they can log a FTF doesn't exist. We all know it does. For those of us who pay to get early notification, this clearly is not in the spirit of fair play. As paulbarratt said, "It devalues premium membership when people do this".

 

But at this point you've flip-flopped again - arguing without staying on message. If you don't want to log a FTF in this manner - don't! Simple. But the OP asked a question, "Is this a common practice among cachers?" and opened up the discussion. I haven't logged a FTF in this manner but I wouldn't hold it against someone who did. But the point you and I were arguing is (was?) is there a hard and fast dictionary definition for FTF. You say yes, I say no. I can't prove or cite a negative so the ball is in your court if you want to continue this. But frankly I'm pretty much done with it.

 

Tortured hypothetical? Wow, what drama!

I am mentioning a very real occurance that can happen. A real reason why someone would give their friends the coordinates prior to publishing on this website, which was exactly the topic. I am not pretending at all that this doesn't happen. I am giving an example of why it can happen that apparently you can't (or won't) grasp.

I have actually hidden geocaches for friends to find while on a trip to the forest that wound up not being published because I decided to pick them up and take them with me when we went home. I could have just as easily left them there and asked for them to be published. This wasn't as hypothetical as you seem to think.

 

My point still remains. Do ALL cachers have to cater to FTFers when they place their caches?

The answer is still NO.

TPTB must also think this, or else they would have guidelines stating that no cache published here could have been published on another site prior to being listed here. Or a guideline that specifically states that you are not to disclose coordinates to anyone prior to publication. Do such guidelines exist? No, they don't. And for good reason.

 

People play this game lots of different ways. Sorry you can't understand that not everyone wants to play by your particular sense of fair play. I have my own sense of fair play that is just as valid as yours, as do many others here.

Edited by Stargazer22
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I just love it when folks, particularly disgruntled FTF-wannabes, sail in here and try to tell everyone else that various aspects of the game -- including particularly FTF -- must be played only according to their rules, and then, of course, in quick order, they invoke notions of "right" and "wrong" or "this is what God wants" to back up their demands for how the game should be played. Quite bizarre!

It happens to every other thing in the world, from how to bake a cake to how to run a country. Why should geocaching be any different?

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I just love it when folks, particularly disgruntled FTF-wannabes, sail in here and try to tell everyone else that various aspects of the game -- including particularly FTF -- must be played only according to their rules, and then, of course, in quick order, they invoke notions of "right" and "wrong" or "this is what God wants" to back up their demands for how the game should be played. Quite bizarre!

It happens to every other thing in the world, from how to bake a cake to how to run a country. Why should geocaching be any different?

Tru dat

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i do not even try for a FTF anymore. I still want my first one...but here in West Michigan, there are half a dozen men that either do not work...or are working in their cars (patrol cars?) and get every single FTF. They all have over 150 each. there was one recently that had one guy pulling into a new published cache, in his rearview was another guy, and while they were finding it...another FTF obsessed man drives up. It always seems to be a flashmob of the same guys. Not much fun for the average famil man who caches with his kids who would like to get their son/daghter a FTF...sometime...somehow...

 

I used to try...now I do not care. I do not even put FTF swag in my caches anymore as the same guys are getting them. <rant complete>

 

Points of clarification:

 

1) I work in Law Enforcement but in the jail and do not have a patrol car and not able to cache while I am working. Accusations, especially when they are incorrect, can have negative ramifications and should be checked before being made.

 

2) The third "guy" was a couple in their 30's WITH two of their young children.

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We stopped at a cache over the weekend about 350 miles away, had been published over 2 years and had about 250 signatures on the log. A FTF certificate was still folded up in the bottom of the cache (altoids tin). Does this mean I can claim FTF because I have the certificate? After all, now I have proof!

 

Oh, geez, I'm just kidding, I've put that with my favorite swag stash, get a giggle every time I think of it.

 

I've been given coords the day before pulishing because a local cacher felt bad he grabbed an FTF from my daughter - fair and square, but he felt bad reading her log. So he hid a couple and sent my kids out after them first. I've also given people heads up (twice in 171) for one reason or another. If you want the FTF that bad that you have people hiding them for you, or you've done the whole sock puppet thing, It's all yours.

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Wow, I just had a cache-life changing moment. If I make another profile (just a free one, don't want to pay that membership fee again) and hide caches under that name, then I can sign and log them immediately under this one. Not only will I get the FTFs but increase my "Fount It!" smilelys. This is genius!! Now where is that auction on eBay where I can get 200 film canisters for $10....

 

FTFs are fun, and there is some stiff competition in our area for it; but all in all, its just a fun thing. Really, who's counting?? (I got three BTW and was robbed of a 4th.... :) )

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i do not even try for a FTF anymore. I still want my first one...but here in West Michigan, there are half a dozen men that either do not work...or are working in their cars (patrol cars?) and get every single FTF. They all have over 150 each. there was one recently that had one guy pulling into a new published cache, in his rearview was another guy, and while they were finding it...another FTF obsessed man drives up. It always seems to be a flashmob of the same guys. Not much fun for the average famil man who caches with his kids who would like to get their son/daghter a FTF...sometime...somehow...

 

I used to try...now I do not care. I do not even put FTF swag in my caches anymore as the same guys are getting them. <rant complete>

 

Not much fun for the average famil man?????????

Who are you trying to get pity from? I have a wife, a 17 year old, an 11 year old, and a 5 month old baby. Yet I still beat you to caches because I don't spend my time on the forums running other cachers into the ground.

"Working in their cars (patrol cars)" Get your facts right before you post, you may find yourself in court trying to defend yourself against these very same and very false accusations.

 

Stop whining and start caching.

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Who are you trying to get pity from? I have a wife, a 17 year old, an 11 year old, and a 5 month old baby. Yet I still beat you to caches because I don't spend my time on the forums running other cachers into the ground.

 

Stop whining and start caching.

Thank you for such an excellent illustration of why the FTF hunt is so bad for caching. I could not possibly have made up anything better.

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i do not even try for a FTF anymore. I still want my first one...but here in West Michigan, there are half a dozen men that either do not work...or are working in their cars (patrol cars?) and get every single FTF. They all have over 150 each. there was one recently that had one guy pulling into a new published cache, in his rearview was another guy, and while they were finding it...another FTF obsessed man drives up. It always seems to be a flashmob of the same guys. Not much fun for the average famil man who caches with his kids who would like to get their son/daghter a FTF...sometime...somehow...

 

I used to try...now I do not care. I do not even put FTF swag in my caches anymore as the same guys are getting them. <rant complete>

 

Not much fun for the average famil man?????????

Who are you trying to get pity from? I have a wife, a 17 year old, an 11 year old, and a 5 month old baby. Yet I still beat you to caches because I don't spend my time on the forums running other cachers into the ground.

"Working in their cars (patrol cars)" Get your facts right before you post, you may find yourself in court trying to defend yourself against these very same and very false accusations.

 

Stop whining and start caching.

Wow. Pretty angsty post considering it's premise was that someone else is whining too much.

 

BTW, the referenced comment was very oblique. Even a caveman could defend this against any kind of 'false accusation' accusation.

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i do not even try for a FTF anymore. I still want my first one...but here in West Michigan, there are half a dozen men that either do not work...or are working in their cars (patrol cars?) and get every single FTF. They all have over 150 each. there was one recently that had one guy pulling into a new published cache, in his rearview was another guy, and while they were finding it...another FTF obsessed man drives up. It always seems to be a flashmob of the same guys. Not much fun for the average famil man who caches with his kids who would like to get their son/daghter a FTF...sometime...somehow...

 

I used to try...now I do not care. I do not even put FTF swag in my caches anymore as the same guys are getting them. <rant complete>

 

Points of clarification:

 

1) I work in Law Enforcement but in the jail and do not have a patrol car and not able to cache while I am working. Accusations, especially when they are incorrect, can have negative ramifications and should be checked before being made.

 

2) The third "guy" was a couple in their 30's WITH two of their young children.

 

johngie,

I am sorry you assume I was talking about you. i was not. That comment and the example were obiously place too close together and should have been seperated more clearly. As you said, you should verify facts before making specific accusations. I never said anything about you. I do not know you or your vocation. You are not a cop...so it is not you. Simple.

 

Also, can we move on? Really, I am sorry If you took what I wrote as being about you. It is not. Friends?

 

Grace and Peace

-WHO-DEY

Edited by WHO-DEY
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FTF is "First to Find" and it means exactly what it says.. The first person to find the cache. Now, "FIND" is the operative word here. If you were involved in the placement of the cache, then you very well can't "FIND" the cache.

 

If a non-geocacher stumbles across the cache prior to it being published and writes something in the log book, are they not "FTF"? They found it... They were first... Maybe the concept is just too complicated... :ph34r:

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FTF is "First to Find" and it means exactly what it says.. The first person to find the cache. Now, "FIND" is the operative word here. If you were involved in the placement of the cache, then you very well can't "FIND" the cache.

 

If a non-geocacher stumbles across the cache prior to it being published and writes something in the log book, are they not "FTF"? They found it... They were first... Maybe the concept is just too complicated... :ph34r:

 

...in addition, if I choose to give the coords to my friends or others prior to being published, they were still FIRST TO FIND the cache.

 

Why do people continually lose sight of the fact that geocaching.com is simply a listing service, nothing more, nothing less.

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I noticed this recently on a local find: the FTF being before it was published, and on top of that it was found by the person reviewing that cache.

If there is such a thing as fair in this world (which is highly debatable) this is not.

If someone wants to claim first to find, then I think they have to be in competition with others. To find out the coordinates ahead of publishing in any way is removing yourself from the competition. Like a runner starting the race a day ahead of time. How can that runner finish first when there is no one running with him? how can you claim first when no one else is in the running at that point? No one else CAN find it.

It seems to me to sour the sport of the game to do things like this.

So I can just go out and hide caches and give the coordinates to my friends so they can all log first to finds? The more I hide the more FTF's my friends get? No, I don't think that's sporting. Call me a sour-puss (and now I'm sure some of you will) but it just rubs me the wrong way in a game when we're all in this together (hiding and hunting caches).

It changes the mentality of the game. Before we are all in this together. Now, it depends on who you know.

Well in a game with few rules (and I do like it that way) you are able to do whatever you like, sporting or not. Hell, why not just log them and not bother to find them? You can do that too. See who actually checks the logs. Why bother to go out at all? Play however you want. It's your karma, and your fun. The caveat being that it doesn't ruin other's fun.

My geo-partner hid a new one the other day. I didn't know where it was, but waited for it to be published. I'd rather have a first to find that counts for me. I'd rather have no first to finds. (I was about 8th I think, and that's OK).

OK, so there's my rant. Nuff said. :ph34r:

 

OMG, I never thought that reviewers would actually go out and look for something that they had been told all about? Thats not nice. But then, if they have only been told co-ords then maybe its ok as they are on the same playing field (metaphorically of course) as everyone else, all they have is a headstart.

 

Claire xx

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Around here, we are all FTF hounds! But people claim betafinds which are when you are with the owner when they put it out. Or you find it before it is published. You post a note and when its found you convert the note to a foundit log. Everyone is FTFAP who is FTF. I know of one situation when we were hiking on a trail. When we came back, a group of cachers was heading up. Around here, most trails have caches every .1 mile but thi didn't. We had put three out. So we gave them the coordinates so they wouldn't put any on top of them. But then they claimed FIRST TO FINDS! So we deleted their logs and told the REAL FTF what happened. I ain't trusting them again...

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Around here, we are all FTF hounds! But people claim betafinds which are when you are with the owner when they put it out. Or you find it before it is published. You post a note and when its found you convert the note to a foundit log. Everyone is FTFAP who is FTF. I know of one situation when we were hiking on a trail. When we came back, a group of cachers was heading up. Around here, most trails have caches every .1 mile but thi didn't. We had put three out. So we gave them the coordinates so they wouldn't put any on top of them. But then they claimed FIRST TO FINDS! So we deleted their logs and told the REAL FTF what happened. I ain't trusting them again...

 

Setting aside the inappropriateness of ever deleting a valid log, what you did is "gift" the FTF to your friends, showing them favoritism over the individuals that were [real] actually the;

 

FIRST to

 

being before all others with respect to time, order, rank, importance, etc.

 

FIND

 

to locate, attain, or obtain by search or effort

 

Seems somewhat unfair, especially in light of the fact you were the one that gave them the coords. Would you have done the same if a hiker (muggle) had stumbled upon it and decided to try out geocaching and logged it?

 

Whether or not it is listed on geocaching.com only impacts whether it is possible to log you find on the site. There is at least one GC sanctioned instance where GC let Magellan list selected users caches on their site for an extended period of time for their users to find who then, after the listing were put on GC, posted their logs (date and all) here. Should their logs have all been deleted by the CO?

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Many people are assuming that others care about their FTF game. The fact is, many don't. If I as a cache hider email my 20 bestest friends the location of my new cache, how is that unfair? Maybe I really don't care who is first, or think the whole FTF game is silly so I play it my own way. How am I being unfair because I don't play by your rules?

 

FTFP is goofy too - it should be FTFAPOG (First To Find After Publication On Geocaching.com) as it's already been said there are many other ways to publish a cache besides on geocaching.com

 

Actually, maybe it should be FTFAPOGWPK (First To Find After Publication On Geocaching.com Without Prior Knowledge) as I might decide to tell somebody I've arranged to have my cache published at 6:00pm, so please be at the so-and-so trailhead at 6pm. If I did that, my friend would be FTFAPOG but not FTFAPOGWPK, or something like that.

 

Last I checked, a logbook only has one first signer. If I rushed out to find a cache after publication and somebody signed it the day before, then who cares. Next time maybe I'll sign it first. Doesn't really matter.

 

There's one guy in my area who hid a cache with a cash prize under a sock puppet, and claimed the first with his real account. OK, whatever. That doesn't bother me either.

 

If you don't care, why would you email anybody the coords prior to publication?

 

 

Me thinks people forget who actually owns the cache???

 

If I had a room to rent and was thinking for advertising it, I would put the word about through whatever means possible. Groundspeak is a listing service only. Now if someone rings me about the room I have to rent and I say that Im really sorry someone beat you to it, no one is going to demand as to how this happened because they bought their paper in the shop as soon as it opened and theres no way anyone else could of known. People talk, thats what they do!! If I have mates who cache then I may even want them to see if they can find it to see if they feel I have rated my terrain and difficulty properly. If they find it then they have found it!! Thats it! If I own the cache then just count yourself lucky that I have posted it on Groundspeak for you to enjoy finding! Its not like anyone is charging you for it. Its not like anyone gets a prize for being first to find that officially goes down in records. No one is going to read in their history books that so and so go the FTF prize for Geocaching. It actually sounds like a lot of people are being very inconsiderate and unthankful to those who have provided the caches (At their own expense I might add) for them to enjoy for free.

 

Lighten up!!! I have only been doing this for 11 days now but am thoroughly enjoying it. Its not about the find for me, its about the mystery! So what who found what first. Im hunting stuff thats been published for years at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it. If I had the FTF attitude then I just wouldnt bother hunting the old stuff and would sit white knuckled clutching my blackberry until something new was published! But whats the difference?? In actual fact by hunting the old stuff I get to read other peoples experiences of the cache and thats priceless and obviously those who are FTF miss out on.

 

Just enjoy it. Its a game, dont lose sight of that. Now if you were telling me a friend of a friend got a job ahead of you because they got first dibs then that would be different. But this is just a hobby, a game, a past time and has no monetary value apart from what cache owners invest and it seems to be them who is getting the hard time.

 

Claire xx

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Many people are assuming that others care about their FTF game. The fact is, many don't. If I as a cache hider email my 20 bestest friends the location of my new cache, how is that unfair? Maybe I really don't care who is first, or think the whole FTF game is silly so I play it my own way. How am I being unfair because I don't play by your rules?

 

FTFP is goofy too - it should be FTFAPOG (First To Find After Publication On Geocaching.com) as it's already been said there are many other ways to publish a cache besides on geocaching.com

 

Actually, maybe it should be FTFAPOGWPK (First To Find After Publication On Geocaching.com Without Prior Knowledge) as I might decide to tell somebody I've arranged to have my cache published at 6:00pm, so please be at the so-and-so trailhead at 6pm. If I did that, my friend would be FTFAPOG but not FTFAPOGWPK, or something like that.

 

Last I checked, a logbook only has one first signer. If I rushed out to find a cache after publication and somebody signed it the day before, then who cares. Next time maybe I'll sign it first. Doesn't really matter.

 

There's one guy in my area who hid a cache with a cash prize under a sock puppet, and claimed the first with his real account. OK, whatever. That doesn't bother me either.

 

If you don't care, why would you email anybody the coords prior to publication?

 

 

Me thinks people forget who actually owns the cache???

 

If I had a room to rent and was thinking for advertising it, I would put the word about through whatever means possible. Groundspeak is a listing service only. Now if someone rings me about the room I have to rent and I say that Im really sorry someone beat you to it, no one is going to demand as to how this happened because they bought their paper in the shop as soon as it opened and theres no way anyone else could of known. People talk, thats what they do!! If I have mates who cache then I may even want them to see if they can find it to see if they feel I have rated my terrain and difficulty properly. If they find it then they have found it!! Thats it! If I own the cache then just count yourself lucky that I have posted it on Groundspeak for you to enjoy finding! Its not like anyone is charging you for it. Its not like anyone gets a prize for being first to find that officially goes down in records. No one is going to read in their history books that so and so go the FTF prize for Geocaching. It actually sounds like a lot of people are being very inconsiderate and unthankful to those who have provided the caches (At their own expense I might add) for them to enjoy for free.

 

Lighten up!!! I have only been doing this for 11 days now but am thoroughly enjoying it. Its not about the find for me, its about the mystery! So what who found what first. Im hunting stuff thats been published for years at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it. If I had the FTF attitude then I just wouldnt bother hunting the old stuff and would sit white knuckled clutching my blackberry until something new was published! But whats the difference?? In actual fact by hunting the old stuff I get to read other peoples experiences of the cache and thats priceless and obviously those who are FTF miss out on.

 

Just enjoy it. Its a game, dont lose sight of that. Now if you were telling me a friend of a friend got a job ahead of you because they got first dibs then that would be different. But this is just a hobby, a game, a past time and has no monetary value apart from what cache owners invest and it seems to be them who is getting the hard time.

 

Claire xx

 

All I was doing was pointing out a logic hole. There is no rant in there about anything, let alone how angsty I am or how people who do that ruin the game. I just didn't understand what was the point of giving coordinates people *prior to publication* if they don't care about FTFs. That's all.

 

But thanks for lightening me up. I've been stumbling around in a cloud of vague rage since April 15th, when this topic had pretty well died already.

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Many people are assuming that others care about their FTF game. The fact is, many don't. If I as a cache hider email my 20 bestest friends the location of my new cache, how is that unfair? Maybe I really don't care who is first, or think the whole FTF game is silly so I play it my own way. How am I being unfair because I don't play by your rules?

 

FTFP is goofy too - it should be FTFAPOG (First To Find After Publication On Geocaching.com) as it's already been said there are many other ways to publish a cache besides on geocaching.com

 

Actually, maybe it should be FTFAPOGWPK (First To Find After Publication On Geocaching.com Without Prior Knowledge) as I might decide to tell somebody I've arranged to have my cache published at 6:00pm, so please be at the so-and-so trailhead at 6pm. If I did that, my friend would be FTFAPOG but not FTFAPOGWPK, or something like that.

 

Last I checked, a logbook only has one first signer. If I rushed out to find a cache after publication and somebody signed it the day before, then who cares. Next time maybe I'll sign it first. Doesn't really matter.

 

There's one guy in my area who hid a cache with a cash prize under a sock puppet, and claimed the first with his real account. OK, whatever. That doesn't bother me either.

 

If you don't care, why would you email anybody the coords prior to publication?

 

 

Me thinks people forget who actually owns the cache???

 

If I had a room to rent and was thinking for advertising it, I would put the word about through whatever means possible. Groundspeak is a listing service only. Now if someone rings me about the room I have to rent and I say that Im really sorry someone beat you to it, no one is going to demand as to how this happened because they bought their paper in the shop as soon as it opened and theres no way anyone else could of known. People talk, thats what they do!! If I have mates who cache then I may even want them to see if they can find it to see if they feel I have rated my terrain and difficulty properly. If they find it then they have found it!! Thats it! If I own the cache then just count yourself lucky that I have posted it on Groundspeak for you to enjoy finding! Its not like anyone is charging you for it. Its not like anyone gets a prize for being first to find that officially goes down in records. No one is going to read in their history books that so and so go the FTF prize for Geocaching. It actually sounds like a lot of people are being very inconsiderate and unthankful to those who have provided the caches (At their own expense I might add) for them to enjoy for free.

 

Lighten up!!! I have only been doing this for 11 days now but am thoroughly enjoying it. Its not about the find for me, its about the mystery! So what who found what first. Im hunting stuff thats been published for years at the moment and thoroughly enjoying it. If I had the FTF attitude then I just wouldnt bother hunting the old stuff and would sit white knuckled clutching my blackberry until something new was published! But whats the difference?? In actual fact by hunting the old stuff I get to read other peoples experiences of the cache and thats priceless and obviously those who are FTF miss out on.

 

Just enjoy it. Its a game, dont lose sight of that. Now if you were telling me a friend of a friend got a job ahead of you because they got first dibs then that would be different. But this is just a hobby, a game, a past time and has no monetary value apart from what cache owners invest and it seems to be them who is getting the hard time.

 

Claire xx

 

All I was doing was pointing out a logic hole. There is no rant in there about anything, let alone how angsty I am or how people who do that ruin the game. I just didn't understand what was the point of giving coordinates people *prior to publication* if they don't care about FTFs. That's all.

 

But thanks for lightening me up. I've been stumbling around in a cloud of vague rage since April 15th, when this topic had pretty well died already.

 

Sorry, I didnt mean to aim it specifically at you although I did quote you since I had an answer in my post to that (although buried in all the other lighten yourself up stuff). :ph34r: Sorry

 

I know that I am a really anxious kind of person who cooks something or makes something or does something and then wonders if Its ok (so maybe I need to lighten up on that) but its just my thing (call it being a perfectionist). So the reason I would give out coordinates is to see if the cache actually is findable, or to see if I have rated terrains etc fairly. It would be a feedback thing, after all your reviewer most likely will not know the site and is only going on your own subjective perception. So I suppose its kind of like a have a quick read over this disertation before I hand it over to people who know better than me. That way if anything needs fixed then it can be.

 

Then there will be those who would want there friends to have a head start, but that personally wouldnt be me as I am far too competitive with my friends. lol

 

Claire xx

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Sorry, I didnt mean to aim it specifically at you although I did quote you since I had an answer in my post to that (although buried in all the other lighten yourself up stuff). :ph34r: Sorry

 

I know that I am a really anxious kind of person who cooks something or makes something or does something and then wonders if Its ok (so maybe I need to lighten up on that) but its just my thing (call it being a perfectionist). So the reason I would give out coordinates is to see if the cache actually is findable, or to see if I have rated terrains etc fairly. It would be a feedback thing, after all your reviewer most likely will not know the site and is only going on your own subjective perception. So I suppose its kind of like a have a quick read over this disertation before I hand it over to people who know better than me. That way if anything needs fixed then it can be.

 

Then there will be those who would want there friends to have a head start, but that personally wouldnt be me as I am far too competitive with my friends. lol

 

Claire xx

 

You know what? You're a bit of alright.

 

The thing about having people check on your cache -placement/ratings/etc. is called beta testing, and it is separated from the FTF game. It is generally understood that when beta testing a cache, you forfeit any FTF claim. Obviously, not everyone sees it that way. Hence my use of the word "generally."

 

I understand about "cooking on things" - I do the same. That's why I usually only lurk about the forums. It doesn't matter what you say or how you say it, someone will take it the complete opposite of what you meant. Not everyone is like you and will take a step back and say "mea culpa." (Disclaimer: If anyone reading this is feeling right now that I just lobbed an insult at you, well, I'm not. But perhaps if this tickles you just wrong then maybe you have something to think about.) (Pop-psych drivel over. Time to minimally lurk for another quarter. I've already gone over quota.)

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Fixed.

 

The thing about having people check on your cache -placement/ratings/etc. is called we call beta testing, and it we call it is separated from the FTF game. It is generally understoodWe decided that when beta testing a cache, you forfeit any FTF claim. Obviously, not everyone sees it that way. Hence my use of the word "generally."

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Caching acquaintances placed a cache as a "thank you" to caching friends of theirs. It was placed close to their house, and all they were given were the co-ords...they went after the cache as soon as it was published and got FTF. It was right by their mailbox. In that instance I am fine with someone getting a heads-up.

I have just over 400 finds, no FTF...the ones close to home seem to get published just as I have hit the sack. Oh well, my day will come..............

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Wow, I just had a cache-life changing moment. If I make another profile (just a free one, don't want to pay that membership fee again) and hide caches under that name, then I can sign and log them immediately under this one. Not only will I get the FTFs but increase my "Fount It!" smilelys. This is genius!! Now where is that auction on eBay where I can get 200 film canisters for $10....

 

FTFs are fun, and there is some stiff competition in our area for it; but all in all, its just a fun thing. Really, who's counting?? (I got three BTW and was robbed of a 4th.... :ph34r: )

Can I send you some COD? A local cacher gave me about 400 on my birthday as a joke... I've thought about hiding them all to spite every one in the GC community, but I think my local reviewer would hunt me down and kill me, hiding me somewhere.

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i do not even try for a FTF anymore. I still want my first one...but here in West Michigan, there are half a dozen men that either do not work...or are working in their cars (patrol cars?) and get every single FTF. They all have over 150 each. there was one recently that had one guy pulling into a new published cache, in his rearview was another guy, and while they were finding it...another FTF obsessed man drives up. It always seems to be a flashmob of the same guys. Not much fun for the average famil man who caches with his kids who would like to get their son/daghter a FTF...sometime...somehow...

 

I used to try...now I do not care. I do not even put FTF swag in my caches anymore as the same guys are getting them. <rant complete>

"Working in their cars (patrol cars)" Get your facts right before you post, you may find yourself in court trying to defend yourself against these very same and very false accusations.

 

??

Edited by WHO-DEY
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