Scorched Earth cachers

[+undertree]

Minor rant. No Geocide just a small self righteous rant.

 

Why is it that people feel the need to tear something apart in order to find a difficult cache? When I come up to a cache and notice that the area is torn apart I generally stop hunting that cache and try to notify the owner.

 

I would like to see cache owners temporarily disable such caches and check out the area for themselves. They know what the area looked like when they hid it and can judge weather the cache should be archived.

Yesterday I went to a cache and it appears that someone has undone bolts on access panels and left them laying on the ground. Some of the other access panels were ajar. These were access panels for an irrigation system. If someone feels the need to make hides like this then they need to offer up a small hint like " No extra tools are needed" or make the hint helpful. The high difficulty urban hides are especially bad for this type of behavior. I have seen trees shredded and branches broken from people either trying to climb a tree not meant for climbing, or their search was so vigorous as to destroy small branches.

 

It upsets me because it makes me look bad. I am really getting tired of being involved in hobbies that others are hell bent on destroying. This is not the only hobby I have that have inconsiderate people in it.

 

I guess I am just trying to say that, if you can't find the cache without ripping stuff apart then please don't hunt for it. If you make a hide because you want to see how much damage cachers are willing to do for a smile, then please DON'T.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Minor rant. No Geocide just a small self righteous rant.

 

Why is it that people feel the need to tear something apart in order to find a difficult cache? When I come up to a cache and notice that the area is torn apart I generally stop hunting that cache and try to notify the owner.

 

I would like to see cache owners temporarily disable such caches and check out the area for themselves. They know what the area looked like when they hid it and can judge weather the cache should be archived.

Yesterday I went to a cache and it appears that someone has undone bolts on access panels and left them laying on the ground. Some of the other access panels were ajar. These were access panels for an irrigation system. If someone feels the need to make hides like this then they need to offer up a small hint like " No extra tools are needed" or make the hint helpful. The high difficulty urban hides are especially bad for this type of behavior. I have seen trees shredded and branches broken from people either trying to climb a tree not meant for climbing, or their search was so vigorous as to destroy small branches.

 

It upsets me because it makes me look bad. I am really getting tired of being involved in hobbies that others are hell bent on destroying. This is not the only hobby I have that have inconsiderate people in it.

 

I guess I am just trying to say that, if you can't find the cache without ripping stuff apart then please don't hunt for it. If you make a hide because you want to see how much damage cachers are willing to do for a smile, then please DON'T.

Looks like the hides are too difficult for the area. For some reason cache owners think they should be able to hide things anywhere regardless of what happens to the landscaping.

[+roziecakes]

I have to say that I completely agree with your rant. It makes all geocachers look bad when people tear up an area to look for a cache. 1) I think it shows major irresponsibility for oneself. 2) It's completely thoughtless because they have now ruined that area for the next folks coming through and they cause grief to the cache owner who will have to come clean it up.

 

We had to archive a cache for that very reason. We didn't want people tearing up a perfectly lovely spot anymore.

 

You say your rant is self-righteous, but I think that when people ruin cache areas it speaks badly for our entire community and thus affects us all.

 

-Rozie

[+PeoriaBill]

I do not like tearing up anyone's property. I think caches in some areas need to be sensitive to their surroundings i.e. A little less aggressive hide. For instance caches in Cemeteries, at Rest Stops, very near Commercial Businesses, landscaped foliage/plantings, at someone's home, near playgrounds or at very public historical sites should allow the cacher to make a quick find and leave the area. The more difficult hides and nano's might be better suited to a different location that is not so sensitive to searching and damage. My 2cents worth ...Peoria Bill :>)

[+bike&ski]

Even worse when they brag about it in the cache log.

[+sbell111]

... Yesterday I went to a cache and it appears that someone has undone bolts on access panels and left them laying on the ground. Some of the other access panels were ajar. These were access panels for an irrigation system. ...

Is it too far out of the realm to think that maybe someone was doing maintenance on the irrigation system and isn't yet finished?

[+undertree]

... Yesterday I went to a cache and it appears that someone has undone bolts on access panels and left them laying on the ground. Some of the other access panels were ajar. These were access panels for an irrigation system. ...

Is it too far out of the realm to think that maybe someone was doing maintenance on the irrigation system and isn't yet finished?

I guess anything is possible.

 

If I were in charge of that crew I would not be happy about them leaving the bolts out laying on the ground. It makes me believe that another cacher has done it. It is also possible that I am more sensitive to seeing damage than most people. I care about the sport and when I see something that could make us look bad it makes me sick.

 

I emailed the cache owner and asked them to go check it out. I may be a pain in the rear.

 

My personal feelings are not to hide caches that are difficult near any equipment that can be damaged. So I will continue to hide caches in my style and alert folks when I think I see damage to an area.

[+sbell111]

... Yesterday I went to a cache and it appears that someone has undone bolts on access panels and left them laying on the ground. Some of the other access panels were ajar. These were access panels for an irrigation system. ...

Is it too far out of the realm to think that maybe someone was doing maintenance on the irrigation system and isn't yet finished?

I guess anything is possible.

 

If I were in charge of that crew I would not be happy about them leaving the bolts out laying on the ground. It makes me believe that another cacher has done it. It is also possible that I am more sensitive to seeing damage than most people. I care about the sport and when I see something that could make us look bad it makes me sick. ...

I like how you built a box around your argument. Painting anyone who suspects that any damage in the world might not have been done by cachers as someone who must hate geocaching is very classy.

 

While geocachers are certainly responsible for some cases of damage, removing actual bolts from equipment and leaving them laying on the ground nearby is unlikely. Rather than immediately blaming geocachers for all the trouble in the world, I tend to lean towards the most obvious solution. In this case, that would be that someone was working on the irrigation system and got called off the job, for whatever reason.

 

However, you assume that this was caused by geocachers. Therefore, I must ask you this: Did you replace the bolts and close the other access panels? If not, why not? Certainly, if one of us finds correctable damage that was done by another geocacher, it would be in our own best interest to fix it if we were able. It sort of like hiking along toward a cache and finding a cache page printout on the ground. You would certainly pick it up so the land manager didn't think we were all a bunch of litterbugs.

Edited April 14, 2009 by sbell111

[+Team Cotati]

Excuse makers. I my mind, worse than the perpetrators.

[+Dryphter]

^^ +1

[GOF and Bacall]

I emailed the cache owner and asked them to go check it out. I may be a pain in the rear.

 

Not a pain in anything. This is what you should do. Let the CO know that there may be an issue and move on.

 

I'd like to think that it is impossible that cachers would cause this damage. I'd like to think that but I can't. I have had to archive one of my caches because people could not stop them selves from taking things apart.

[+sbell111]

Excuse makers. I my mind, worse than the perpetrators.

Trolls. The worse of all.

[+StarBrand]

If Geocachers did it - shame on them.

 

If the cache hider used such an area for the hide and left too few clues and too little info for finders to know better - shame on them as well. Maybe sounds a bit like a permission issue as well - maybe.

 

but them are some big ifs.............

[+nelson crew]

I had to archive one of my first hides for this reason (two felled trees completely de-barked), in addition to boundary issues (the cache was on public right-of-way and required no trespassing, but some people couldn't seem to help themselves when it came to bothering the private property 30 yards from the cache). I've also had to archive a cache that had no impact on the environment, but one cacher scared the people nearby so much that permission was rescinded. I now think a lot longer and harder about a hide. Those previous cache disasters were partially my failing for not placing them better.

[+undertree]

I tried to place the bolts back into place, but I don't bring along anything to replace bolts.

 

 

sbell111,

In my mind if there is noticeable damage to an area then yes cachers most likely did it. My reasoning is that even if it wasn't cachers the fact that there is a cache there will bring suspicion upon our hobby.

 

So to be good stewards of our hobby then we need to be sensitive to damage done near caches weather it is done by cachers or non-cachers.

 

I am sorry that you are offended by the assumption that damage is done by cachers. In my mind we need to look at this from the angle of conserving the image of our hobby. Not the angle that it was always someone else.

[GOF and Bacall]

Something I haven't seen mentioned. Sometimes these problems can result from poor cache placement choices. Placing a nano, or even a micro, in an area that can't handle a repeated thorough search can lead to problems. It doesn't relieve the searchers from responsibility for any damage they cause, but hiders need to keep in mind that they can prevent some of the damages by not making it so hard to find. "But, but, the area has no place to hide a larger cache!" Well, perhaps the area just can't support a cache.

 

And no, I am not saying that cachers are or are not responsible for the damage to the area around the cache in question. I am just saying I had this thought and figured it related to this topic.

[Clan Riffster]

Sometimes these problems can result from poor cache placement choices.

That has been the case for every single scorched earth zone I've encountered. I still put the majority, (if not all), of the blame on the seekers, under the assumption that, if my ol' fat crippled self can search a sensitive area for a nano without leaving any noticeable trace, then others should be able to also. When I see an area that used to be pristine, looking like a herd of wild elephants had been square dancing in it, I have to question why. Why would someone treat Momma Nature this way? The answers I've been able to eek out of my failing grey matter are:

1 ) They are numbers obsessed and can't walk away with a DNF, so they continue to search even after the obvious places are checked.

2 ) They don't give two hoots about their impact on an area.

3 ) They don't recognize that the impact they're having is harmful.

 

I make it a habit to notify cache owners when ground zero is trashed. Sometimes I'll suggest hide alternatives for that same spot that wouldn't result in such damage.

[+sbell111]

I tried to place the bolts back into place, but I don't bring along anything to replace bolts.

Well, there's my point exactly. You are assuming that some cacher broke out a socket set to remove a bolted on panel. I find that to be highly unlikely.

In my mind if there is noticeable damage to an area then yes cachers most likely did it. My reasoning is that even if it wasn't cachers the fact that there is a cache there will bring suspicion upon our hobby.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. You are reasoning that even if cachers didn't do it, then they did it. They either did or didn't.

 

Certainly, some damage done in remote locations can be pinned on cachers. However, issues in proximity to caches that are not remote cannot necessarily be always pinned on geocachers. The issue you presented is the perfect example of geocachers possibly (probably?) not being responsible.

So to be good stewards of our hobby then we need to be sensitive to damage done near caches weather it is done by cachers or non-cachers.

Of course we do, but that doesn't meen that we should always jump to the conclusion that geocachers are responsible for all the bad in the world.

I am sorry that you are offended by the assumption that damage is done by cachers. In my mind we need to look at this from the angle of conserving the image of our hobby. Not the angle that it was always someone else.

In my mind, we should avoid jumping to conclusions, especially those that ignore more likely scenarios.

[+ThirstyMick]

I tried to place the bolts back into place, but I don't bring along anything to replace bolts.

Well, there's my point exactly. You are assuming that some cacher broke out a socket set to remove a bolted on panel. I find that to be highly unlikely.

In my mind if there is noticeable damage to an area then yes cachers most likely did it. My reasoning is that even if it wasn't cachers the fact that there is a cache there will bring suspicion upon our hobby.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. You are reasoning that even if cachers didn't do it, then they did it. They either did or didn't.

 

Certainly, some damage done in remote locations can be pinned on cachers. However, issues in proximity to caches that are not remote cannot necessarily be always pinned on geocachers. The issue you presented is the perfect example of geocachers possibly (probably?) not being responsible.

So to be good stewards of our hobby then we need to be sensitive to damage done near caches weather it is done by cachers or non-cachers.

Of course we do, but that doesn't meen that we should always jump to the conclusion that geocachers are responsible for all the bad in the world.

I am sorry that you are offended by the assumption that damage is done by cachers. In my mind we need to look at this from the angle of conserving the image of our hobby. Not the angle that it was always someone else.

In my mind, we should avoid jumping to conclusions, especially those that ignore more likely scenarios.

It seems like you're trying to start an argument I think he was trying to say that if a land manager knows about the cache, then whether the damage was actually caused by geocachers or not, geocachers should care because the land manager doesn't know who caused it either. Not that geocachers are responsible for all the bad in the world!

 

I've noticed ripped apart terrain near geocaches too, and personally am pretty sure it was geocachers that were responsible. In particular there was a micro in the woods. High difficulty rating and no clue. The whole park was in lovely shape except for this area where all the plantlife was ripped apart. Dying trees were knocked over, every crevice between rocks had all of the dirt dug out and left beside it. The area was completely devastated. I'm not sure what would possess anyone to tear it apart. Except that there was the lure of a smiley. When I suspect that a hide might be difficult, I always try to give a pretty detailed clue so that those who might be inclined to get desperate and start tearing things apart, don't. The CO didn't seem to be too upset when I told him about the torn apart area though.

 

In the case mentioned, I'm not sure what kind of a responsible irrigation maintenance crew would leave site with the panels open? I have seen caches that required a screwdriver to open up a j-box attached just next to the real one. The last one, I was only convinced by my bf not to just leave the cache site because he pointed out that there were no conduits running to or from the box (there was only the tiniest gap to see that though), i was really unnerved by it, and can see it leading to geocachers opening up other things that we shouldn't be touching.

[+sbell111]

It seems like you're trying to start an argument

The very fact that everyone in the world doesn't agree with any particular OP is not evidence of 'trying to start an argument'. However, many people attempt to minimize the points of others by painting them with that brush.

[+UBC Geograd]

I never want to be a Scorched Earth cacher. That is why I will never get too close to a volcano or lava flow earth-cache.

 

[+Team GPSaxophone]

It seems like you're trying to start an argument

Mr Barnard: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.

 

Man: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.

 

Mr Barnard: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.

[+ThirstyMick]

It seems like you're trying to start an argument

The very fact that everyone in the world doesn't agree with any particular OP is not evidence of 'trying to start an argument'. However, many people attempt to minimize the points of others by painting them with that brush.

 

I'm not trying to minimize your points by painting them with any sort of brush, and have no problem with disagreement or differing opinion. Maybe it wasn't geocachers. I wasn't commenting on your opinion. Just the way that you expressed it. Comments like "I like how you built a box around your argument. Painting anyone who suspects that any damage in the world might not have been done by cachers as someone who must hate geocaching is very classy." led me to think you just wanted to argue. In any event, I don't want to argue, and was trying to laugh about it, hence the laughing Signal.

 

Anyway, this isn't what the thread is about, sorry for mentioning it.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Looks like the hides are too difficult for the area. For some reason cache owners think they should be able to hide things anywhere regardless of what happens to the landscaping.

True enough. I learned this lesson the hard way. Now I factor in these kinds of finders when hiding a cache. If the area is sensative I make it EASY. I save the hard stuff for more durable environments.

 

The results aren't perfect but better than not allowing for it gets you.

[+Gamaliel]

I tried to place the bolts back into place, but I don't bring along anything to replace bolts.

Well, there's my point exactly. You are assuming that some cacher broke out a socket set to remove a bolted on panel. I find that to be highly unlikely.

 

I was with a group of cachers and one of us whipped out a tool to start disassembling something before we realized that the cache was actually a flat magnet. In retrospect we should have searched longer before resorting to that. I can easily see that sort of thing happening with tougher hides.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Gamaliel

[+Team GPSaxophone]

...Looks like the hides are too difficult for the area. For some reason cache owners think they should be able to hide things anywhere regardless of what happens to the landscaping.

True enough. I learned this lesson the hard way. Now I factor in these kinds of finders when hiding a cache. If the area is sensative I make it EASY. I save the hard stuff for more durable environments.

 

The results aren't perfect but better than not allowing for it gets you.

I spoke about this at our big geocaching event in February. Hopefully some people heard the message and will follow suit.

 

General guidelines:

Landscaped area = easy to find cache

Lots of muggle = camo'd, but easy to spot by a geocacher

Area that can handle high traffic = harder to find cache, if that's what you want to hide.