Delorme PN-40

April 16, 2009

As an answer to the Grumpy Moderator ... I rather enjoyed the back and forth exhibited in the aforegoing thread. While sometimes heated, sometimes misaimed, and sometimes misinformed it showed a level of intellegence and wit not always exhibited on other topics and the threads therein contained on this site. And, see (?), when you sit on the side and let the dust settle by itself everything seems to work out. AND, some of us can get some useful info out of the whole thing. :rolleyes:

April 17, 2009

I only suggested that WAAS stuff may qualify for FTC investigation, nothing else. It is well defined in specs and testable/provable. Everything else is my subjective opinion.

If I'm not mistaken, the Garmin Oregon is also marketed as WAAS enabled. Are they being investigated by the FTC?

I've owned the PN-40 and the Garmin Oregon 300. They are both fantastic devices, and amazingly accurate. Each has their pluses and minuses. As a Mac user, the Oregon is a tad more friendly with my computer. But, as a GPSr for geocaching, they are both great.

-Adam

April 17, 2009

Such emotion involved in discussions of the Delorme GPS for some reason.

For those thinking I might not be aware of the ability to download Quads, or aerial photos with the Topo software, I do have a subscription, and like that ability. I don’t however like how slow, time consuming, and inconvenient it is to do so. In addition, you also pay extra for this feature, so I consider it the same as buying additional software for any unit. In addition, if you’re familiar with other Raster map software, then you’re aware of how much higher quality of scans are available. When utilized with the rather low resolution display of the PN-40, the maps while useable seem a little crude. The Raster maps and to a much larger extent the aerial photos also really eat up memory in a hurry.

I don’t understand the arguments regarding reception and accuracy of the PN-40. If you haven’t tried one, this is a strength of the Orange handheld. It’s as fast and accurate as any of the high end handheld units I have used, and doesn’t seem to exhibit any bad characteristics like say the old Magellan sportrak series. On the other hand, the Pro Delorme argument making it seem almost magical is unfounded as well. It does loose lock in tough reception conditions, and it has more difficulty obtaining a WAAS position fix than most of the more modern units I’ve used. That said, for geocaching in particular it’s an excellent choice. One thing I can’t help commenting about in addition to the positional accuracy and stability that make it a good choice, you also have to take into account the excellent magnetic compass. It works quite well at slow speeds and when stationary, which makes this an excellent choice when moving through slow and tough terrain while seeking a specific pinpoint location.

Finally, I have to say I like Totem Lakes Choice of frontpage templates for his webpage. It brings back memories of my old hiking webpage of years ago. Maybe at some point if life slows down a little I might have to do a hiking webpage again, linking maps, GPS tracks, and geo-referenced photos.

2.1k · April 17, 2009

I don’t however like how slow, time consuming, and inconvenient it is to do so. In addition, you also pay extra for this feature, so I consider it the same as buying additional software for any unit. In addition, if you’re familiar with other Raster map software, then you’re aware of how much higher quality of scans are available.

I see that a lot. On the other hand, can you please help us with a reference to a superior source of faster, less time consuming an more convenient downloads of imagery for any handheld? At what price over and above the $30 per year?

As a personal note, for my PN-40, I've downloaded about 22GB of imagery for my $30.

Now, at the risk of being accused of an apples (iTunes) to oranges (PN-40) comparison humor me with this:

22GB of iTunes for my MP3 player is about 10,000 songs, about $10,000 and how long to download? Any guesses?

Yes, it is a DeLorme imagery to iTunes comparison, but will it do until we are provided with another imagery for handheld GPS alternative?

And if not available directly from the manufacturer of the handheld, but a third party source, can you provide a step-by-step from download to install so that we may see how tractable that is?

(Yes, there is a step-by-step in the Wiki for the PN-40.)

http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/How+To

When utilized with the rather low resolution display of the PN-40, the maps while useable seem a little crude.

Low resolution? Is it not common practice that resolutions are graded on an areal density basis? If so, then how does the DeLorme PN-40 compare on a dpi verical x dpi horizontal as compared to others?

The Raster maps and to a much larger extent the aerial photos also really eat up memory in a hurry.

Is this another negative characteristic of the PN-40? Again, as compared to?

TINSTAAFL

4.3k · April 17, 2009

... a DeLorme imagery to iTunes comparison, but will it do until we are provided with another imagery for handheld GPS alternative?

I've thought about this cost-benefit analysis a lot -- having both of the devices and services. I don't think it's possible to do a fair comparison because they fill such different niches. But in short, the iPhone costs more -- and offers more.

Comparing the cost of iTunes music against maps doesn't work - because the music is sold piecemeal, and it's only a tiny, tiny part of what the iPhone does.

My iPhone bill is around $60 a month. That includes my phone service and unlimited data. On paper at least, the data plan is only about half of the bill. So depending on how you slice it - I'm paying 12 or 24 times as much for my phone+data service than I paid for my "unlimited" DeLorme subscription.

But -- comparing the iPhone bill to the DeLorme Subscription service, you'd have to add your phone, DSL or cable internet service in to get anything resembling fariness. You can't use DeLorme's subscription without those. And just as you use your internet connection for more than maps, I get more than maps through the iPhone. It replaces so many other gadgets and separate subscription services that for me it's quite the bargain.

As for the narrow, specific service of delivering maps and aerial imagery -- the key advantage of the iPhone is that I get them on demand, pretty much instantly when I need them. Not needing hours or days to figure out what I MIGHT need, no need to pre-select and download. More data sources and higher quality imagery, too. That's hugely convenient and there's no way to compare the cost benefit of something like the iPhone or G1 against a stand-alone GPS - the smartphones offer that kind of access and the stand-alone devices don't.

So -- what's in the PN-40's favor? Ability to carry image data in your pocket (if you pre-loaded it) when you go outside of cellular data range. Waterproof and rugged for field use. Very important for some applications - but completrely separate to the discssion of how much the annual map subscription costs. See what I mean about filling different niches?

Sorry if I ran long on that - it's late and I didn't have time to compose a shorter note.

Edited April 17, 2009 by lee_rimar

April 17, 2009

Here in Paradise (state of Hawaii) aerial maps are not available.

Edited April 17, 2009 by OldBenC

4.3k · April 17, 2009

When utilized with the rather low resolution display of the PN-40, the maps while useable seem a little crude...

The display on the PN-40 is about 120dpi, which isn't low resolution. It's not as high resolution as ome other hand held devices (e.g., iPhone at 166dpi) or many laptop computers. But it really is on the high end for resolution, contrast and brightness compared to a lot of other handheld GPS units,

It just isn't BIG.

2.6k · April 17, 2009

Here in Paradise (state of Hawaii) aerial maps are not available.

What area?

April 17, 2009

Once again, such strong defenses of the PN-40. Regarding the display. Bright, and nice contrast yes, however, it is what I’ll call low resolution, and small in size for a device used to display photo type images. In comparison, the display on the back of my digital camera is over 200 DPI, displaying a full 640X480 image in 3 inch display. Compared to old small displays like the eTrex series, the display resolution is comparable. In my opinion, the PN-40 display is a poor choice for what we’re trying to use the display to do.

Comparing the map downloading to I’tunes????? We’re talking downloading public domain information rather than data requiring royalties. The added value is conversion to a format that can be uploaded to the GPS. Again, I have and use several programs that load higher quality versions of the same data for use on my computer. ExpertGPS, Topofusion, and Sportracks are the ones I use on a regular basis. All three are so much faster and easier to use, making downloading the data considerably faster and for the most part painless. While I can download images with these programs of a resolution and quality that make identifying and following trails quite easy, the compression and resulting lower res image used by TOPO 7 often make these trail un-discernable on the PN-40 display. If I want that data for use in the field, I’m still at the mercy of the old tracing the trail to make an overly detailed route, convert to track and upload into my GPS so I can display and follow the Track on my handheld unit. This is the same technique I was using 8 years ago.

Finally, when comparing the Downloaded topo maps to other units, you need to compare it to Quad based maps on the other unit. The 1:24,000 scale maps on a garmin unit are less memory intensive, more scalable, and could be said to have several advantages. The displays available on some of the Garmin units also offer the ability to display considerable more information due to larger size, albeit with some brightness/contrast trade offs. The raster maps used by Delorme are scanned at a very low resolution, eat a lot more memory, aren’t searchable, but on the plus side sometimes contain data not included on vector based products.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Searching_ut

2.1k · April 17, 2009

But -- comparing the iPhone bill to the DeLorme Subscription service, you'd have to add your phone, DSL or cable internet service in to get anything resembling fariness. You can't use DeLorme's subscription without those. And just as you use your internet connection for more than maps, I get more than maps through the iPhone. It replaces so many other gadgets and separate subscription services that for me it's quite the bargain.

Yes, I agree for those who are still on 56K Dialup and would remain so if it were not for the DeLorme subscription (and revert to dialup at the end of the year's subscription).

OTOH, I've been on broadband for a number of years prior to my subscription and would not downscale if I choose not to renew later this year.

As for the narrow, specific service of delivering maps and aerial imagery -- the key advantage of the iPhone is that I get them on demand, pretty much instantly when I need them. Not needing hours or days to figure out what I MIGHT need, no need to pre-select and download. More data sources and higher quality imagery, too. That's hugely convenient and there's no way to compare the cost benefit of something like the iPhone or G1 against a stand-alone GPS - the smartphones offer that kind of access and the stand-alone devices don't.

Again, I understand this aspect of planning vs. spontaneity as a valid consideration.

As I am going for a one week trip into the back country of the Arizona Strip in a month, I did have to do a lot of preparation and planning. We'll have a base camp and then take day sightseeing trips to such as Grand Canyon overlooks.

Over the course of several weeks at sporadic times, I downloaded the CDOQQ (aerial color photo imagery) for most of that area which lies south of the Utah - Arizona border, east of the Nevada border, west of Kanab Creek and north of the Colorado River.

Loading this imagery in addition to the DeLorme supplied USGS 3DTQ rasterized images took up 4.6GB of my 16GB SDHC card, so I'm not even close to full.

(Contrary to what some might have inferred from other posts, it is not the CDOQQs or the USGS 3DTQs or the vector DeLorme USA 7.0 Topos, it is all of the above in my PN-40 as the same time.)

So that was the result of my planning and preparation.

Regarding the spontaneity and incremental convenience of an iPhone, our base camp will be in the vicinity of the Jensen Twin Tanks, about 34 ATCF miles south of Fredonia, Az., or 45 from Kanab, Ut., if Fredonia doesn't have cell service.

So -- what's in the PN-40's favor? Ability to carry image data in your pocket (if you pre-loaded it) when you go outside of cellular data range.

Absolutely!!! So I'm preloaded as I type. But if I did have an iPhone and were off to Detroit City, then.... <_<

2.1k · April 17, 2009

Comparing the map downloading to I’tunes????? We’re talking downloading public domain information rather than data requiring royalties.

Exactly! I agree wholeheartedly! Did I not say that $30 for my 22GB of DeLorme imagery against $10,000 for 22GB of iTunes was apples to oranges?

My intent was to use that as a prod to evoke a bona fide apples to apples comparison form someone else as I do not have the facts regarding the cost of other services from which one can download maps and photo imagery to a handheld GPSr.

Now, Lee has provided some very interesting alternatives concerning iPhone usage. I'm currently with a year to go on my current cellphone contract, so any iPhone for me might be a while. In the meantime, as I encounter other geocachers, I am going to see if they are iPhoning it. <_< And as long as the iPhone is sight unseen for me, I am not going to speak disparagingly of it.

Again, any cost data on downloading aerial imagery and other maps on other handheld GPSrs?

And, how easy/difficult is it? A step-by-step, like this, is available?

http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/Selecting+Imagery

2.1k · April 17, 2009

Once again, such strong defenses......

Weak ones are expected? <_<

Edited April 17, 2009 by Team CowboyPapa

9.5k · April 17, 2009

Comparing the map downloading to I’tunes????? We’re talking downloading public domain information rather than data requiring royalties.

Exactly! I agree wholeheartedly! Did I not say that $30 for my 22GB of DeLorme imagery against $10,000 for 22GB of iTunes was apples to oranges?

My intent was to use that as a prod to evoke a bona fide apples to apples comparison form someone else as I do not have the facts regarding the cost of other services from which one can download maps and photo imagery to a handheld GPSr.

Now, Lee has provided some very interesting alternatives concerning iPhone usage. I'm currently with a year to go on my current cellphone contract, so any iPhone for me might be a while. In the meantime, as I encounter other geocachers, I am going to see if they are iPhoning it. And as long as the iPhone is sight unseen for me, I am not going to speak disparagingly of it.

Again, any cost data on downloading aerial imagery and other maps on other handheld GPSrs?

And, how easy/difficult is it? A step-by-step, like this, is available?

http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/Selecting+Imagery

Bushnell and Magellan offer a $1 per SuperQuad. The question comes down to: What size is the SuperQuad. Regardless, I'll warrant this domain available data runs more than $30 per year for equivalent downloads through DeLorme.

4.3k · April 17, 2009

...Lee has provided some very interesting alternatives concerning iPhone usage. I'm currently with a year to go on my current cellphone contract, so any iPhone for me might be a while. In the meantime, as I encounter other geocachers, I am going to see if they are iPhoning it. And as long as the iPhone is sight unseen for me, I am not going to speak disparagingly of it.

Thanks.

Of course, I say this at the risk of inciting a completely off-topic holy war -- but you did bring it up. If you're in an area with good cellular data coverage, I really do think the best all-around choice for a smartphone. In a poor or no coverage area, it's just an iPod with a phone and GPS and PDA built in

For the specific task of geocaching, I'd say you have the right idea -- look up an iPhone carrying cacher in your area and shadow them for a day. A little show and tell will be far more impressive than any sales blurb I could write here.

JUST to drag this back to the subject of DeLorme PN-40, however remotely -- I kinda feel DeLorme (and everybody else who makes stand-alone devices) is going to have to seriously rethink their business models over the next few years. As cellular data becomes more ubiquitous, and as delivery of rapdily changing data on demand becomes more and more affordable -- anyone whose business model is based on selling bulk quantities of static data is gonna be in a world of hurt.

It won't matter if DeLorme or Garmin offer the very best stand alone GPS and/or maps in the world. I'm sure the very last maker of buggy whips made the very best buggy whips -- but technology changes very quickly and so changes the marketplace.

DeLorme is already moving more towards online product delivery rather than desktop apps, and that's a very good thing!

Edited April 17, 2009 by lee_rimar

April 17, 2009

Comparing the map downloading to I'tunes????? We're talking downloading public domain information rather than data requiring royalties.

Exactly! I agree wholeheartedly! Did I not say that $30 for my 22GB of DeLorme imagery against $10,000 for 22GB of iTunes was apples to oranges?

My intent was to use that as a prod to evoke a bona fide apples to apples comparison form someone else as I do not have the facts regarding the cost of other services from which one can download maps and photo imagery to a handheld GPSr.

Now, Lee has provided some very interesting alternatives concerning iPhone usage. I'm currently with a year to go on my current cellphone contract, so any iPhone for me might be a while. In the meantime, as I encounter other geocachers, I am going to see if they are iPhoning it. And as long as the iPhone is sight unseen for me, I am not going to speak disparagingly of it.

Again, any cost data on downloading aerial imagery and other maps on other handheld GPSrs?

And, how easy/difficult is it? A step-by-step, like this, is available?

http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/Selecting+Imagery

The veracity with which the PN-40 is defended is not at all credible or practical. From 10,000 feet, the mere fact a wiki step-by-step guide is needed tells me the process is too complicated. The veracity also comes across as a challenge to others.

On the surface, $30 a year for the DeLorme mapping library appears to be a good deal. Yet, in fact, it's actually $40 per year when you include DeLorme's insistence on sending the access code in a physical package via snail mail. Although I bought it online at the DeLorme website, I had to wait days and pay an additional $10 postage for it to arrive.

For an experienced cacher routinely caching a wide geographic area (I focus on 3 states), the time to manipulate Topo 7 is significant. We're talking weeks to build a library of sufficient coverage. As a side note, Topo 7 does not appear to be built to handle that size library. It's incredibly resource intensive, appears to freeze, and will bring a quad core processor with 8 GB to its knees ... only app I have that does that and I run some fairly intensive statistical and multimedia editing apps.

When you think of your personal time at even a relatively low $5 to $10 an hour, the bottom line is much more than you would spend for an off the shelf package (talking topo and marine) from a competitor. Having said that, I personally much prefer the USGS Quads on my PN-40 over what I had on a Garmin Oregon 400T. For me, the PN-40 won that one hands down.

As for real-time, dynamic mapping, there are other options out there. I have Google Maps on my BlackBerry Storm, including a real-time satellite view. In addition to providing greater resolution/clarity, the Storm also routes ... and without locking up! Oh ... it also handles my iTunes podcasts ... and even doubles as a phone. Shoot ... I can even follow these threads on my BlackBerry!

There are pros and cons to any GPSr solution. There is no perfect GPSr. My wife and I own a total of 9 (or 10??) GPRrs from the 3 major brands. I'll say it again ... there are pros and cons with all of them. I personally think this thread would be a lot more objective (and enjoyable) if folks weren't quite so defensive and were a little more open/aware of other possibilities.

2.1k · April 17, 2009

JUST to drag this back to the subject of DeLorme PN-40, however remotely -- I kinda feel DeLorme (and everybody else who makes stand-alone devices) is going to have to seriously rethink their business models over the next few years. As cellular data becomes more ubiquitous, and as delivery of rapdily changing data on demand becomes more and more affordable -- anyone whose business model is based on selling bulk quantities of static data is gonna be in a world of hurt.

It won't matter if DeLorme or Garmin offer the very best stand alone GPS and/or maps in the world. I'm sure the very last maker of buggy whips made the very best buggy whips -- but technology changes very quickly and so changes the marketplace.

DeLorme is already moving more towards online product delivery rather than desktop apps, and that's a very good thing!

Hey, Lee, when I scrapped my '78 GTO, I took it out and now it's lost. Seen my 8-track? <_<

9.5k · April 17, 2009

On the surface, $30 a year for the DeLorme mapping library appears to be a good deal. Yet, in fact, it's actually $40 per year when you include DeLorme's insistence on sending the access code in a physical package via snail mail. Although I bought it online at the DeLorme website, I had to wait days and pay an additional $10 postage for it to arrive.

Keeping this in balance, your order (and mine as I made the same mistake) was via on-line at the website rather than through the map program itself. It wasn't intuitive, but had I known, I would have saved the extra bucks and received near instant gratification.

Edited to add regarding your starting statement:

The veracity with which the PN-40 is defended is not at all credible or practical. From 10,000 feet, the mere fact a wiki step-by-step guide is needed tells me the process is too complicated. The veracity also comes across as a challenge to others.

Keeping this in balance, the veracity at which the PN-40 has been criticized from the beginning is a bit out of line as well. I have seen extremes on both sides as well as balanced notes. To put this in perspective, there are those of us that are happy with these units and have had NO problems at all with them. You may have been underwhelmed by it, but I'm suitably impressed by it. Of course, I also don't jump out and buy the next model on a whim which may cause such subjective criticism or praise.

Edited April 17, 2009 by TotemLake

2.1k · April 17, 2009

I'll say it again ... there are pros and cons with all of them. I personally think this thread would be a lot more objective (and enjoyable) if folks weren't quite so defensive and were a little more open/aware of other possibilities.

I agree, totally. And so we have four or five of us with the actual hands-on experience with the PN-40 hosting simultaneously the maps and imagery available through their ($40) download subscription. But again, regarding the other possibilities of photo imagery and rasterized USGS 3DTQs loaded simultaneously with vectorized Topos on a handheld GPSr for back country usage, what are they?

Are there any?

Who has actually done that with other than a PN-40?

Yes, the DeLorme Wiki is more involved than buying and downloading an ITune, but what is the more simple alternative to the PN-40?

Which one do I buy today, download the imagery tomorrow and have up and running Sunday by following a comparative Wiki with all the steps in one place?

So what is the final conclusion here?

If the PN-40 is the only one that can host all those media forms viably out of cell range, how does it rate?

The best of one?

The least worst of one? <_<

April 17, 2009

I'll say it again ... there are pros and cons with all of them. I personally think this thread would be a lot more objective (and enjoyable) if folks weren't quite so defensive and were a little more open/aware of other possibilities.

I agree, totally. And so we have four or five of us with the actual hands-on experience with the PN-40 hosting simultaneously the maps and imagery available through their ($40) download subscription. But again, regarding the other possibilities of photo imagery and rasterized USGS 3DTQs loaded simultaneously with vectorized Topos on a handheld GPSr for back country usage, what are they?

Are there any?

Who has actually done that with other than a PN-40?

Yes, the DeLorme Wiki is more involved than buying and downloading an ITune, but what is the more simple alternative to the PN-40?

Which one do I buy today, download the imagery tomorrow and have up and running Sunday by following a comparative Wiki with all the steps in one place?

So what is the final conclusion here?

If the PN-40 is the only one that can host all those media forms viably out of cell range, how does it rate?

The best of one?

The least worst of one?

Once again ... there are other options. I have personally rolled my own topo maps on a Garmin 60CSx. I thought it was too involved for the effort ... until I ran in to Topo 7. At this point, the best option to me would be to purchase USGS Quad maps and install them on whatever flavor of GPSr. From my perspective, Topo 7 is just way too involved/time consuming/resource intensive for a signifiant geographic area.

As for what someone should buy today ... the PN-40 as it exists today is simply a non-starter for any kind of routine geocaching or hiking. The power problems, lock ups, and kludges just make it impractical from the start line. Hopefully, the new beta due today will help ... time will obviously tell. Forget the maps, what we have now with the PN-40 is not reliable. Today, like it or not, the market belongs to Garmin. Although they all have limitations, the 60CSx, OR 300, and OR 400T are all reliable, trustworthy GPSrs suitable for both routine and serious geocaching. Incidentally, I would also add the Magellan Triton series to that list if they had just an ounce of customer service and/or user community support.

9.5k · April 17, 2009

I'll say it again ... there are pros and cons with all of them. I personally think this thread would be a lot more objective (and enjoyable) if folks weren't quite so defensive and were a little more open/aware of other possibilities.

I agree, totally. And so we have four or five of us with the actual hands-on experience with the PN-40 hosting simultaneously the maps and imagery available through their ($40) download subscription. But again, regarding the other possibilities of photo imagery and rasterized USGS 3DTQs loaded simultaneously with vectorized Topos on a handheld GPSr for back country usage, what are they?

Are there any?

Who has actually done that with other than a PN-40?

Yes, the DeLorme Wiki is more involved than buying and downloading an ITune, but what is the more simple alternative to the PN-40?

Which one do I buy today, download the imagery tomorrow and have up and running Sunday by following a comparative Wiki with all the steps in one place?

So what is the final conclusion here?

If the PN-40 is the only one that can host all those media forms viably out of cell range, how does it rate?

The best of one?

The least worst of one?

Once again ... there are other options. I have personally rolled my own topo maps on a Garmin 60CSx. I thought it was too involved for the effort ... until I ran in to Topo 7. At this point, the best option to me would be to purchase USGS Quad maps and install them on whatever flavor of GPSr. From my perspective, Topo 7 is just way too involved/time consuming/resource intensive for a signifiant geographic area.

As for what someone should buy today ... the PN-40 as it exists today is simply a non-starter for any kind of routine geocaching or hiking. The power problems, lock ups, and kludges just make it impractical from the start line. Hopefully, the new beta due today will help ... time will obviously tell. Forget the maps, what we have now with the PN-40 is not reliable. Today, like it or not, the market belongs to Garmin. Although they all have limitations, the 60CSx, OR 300, and OR 400T are all reliable, trustworthy GPSrs suitable for both routine and serious geocaching. Incidentally, I would also add the Magellan Triton series to that list if they had just an ounce of customer service and/or user community support.

Both of which had their series of issues right out of the starting gate. The Trtion series was so bad it actually had a voluntary recall and REI flat out refused to carry them for several months because of all the problems resulting in returns. The Oregon was tolerated with hopes Garmin would pull through with firmware updates. The Colorado .... well you get the picture.

I'm not defending quality control problems but to use these models for comparison of reliability needs to be balanced with memories of their starting gate QC issues.

Edited April 17, 2009 by TotemLake

8.9k · April 18, 2009

On the surface, $30 a year for the DeLorme mapping library appears to be a good deal. Yet, in fact, it's actually $40 per year when you include DeLorme's insistence on sending the access code in a physical package via snail mail. Although I bought it online at the DeLorme website, I had to wait days and pay an additional $10 postage for it to arrive.

I paid $30, had my card in a few days and activated it instantly online without any extra costs, so it is indeed $30 as far as I can see.

As for the useability as is, that would be your opinion, mine is I am more than happy with my unit and have not had a single problem. I would and have highly recommended it to any new or seasoned user and have seen people who buy it come away quite happy. Not saying I haven't heard of problems, but I do feel these are outnumbered by the happy users!

As to defense, bashers are met with like defense. You wish to have a nice conversation about the unit, I'm sure most of us are happy to as well...as long as it can be done in a friendly, non-condescending fashion. <_< (you is used generically there)

2.1k · April 18, 2009

Once again ... there are other options. I have personally rolled my own topo maps on a Garmin 60CSx. I thought it was too involved for the effort ... until I ran in to Topo 7. At this point, the best option to me would be to purchase USGS Quad maps and install them on whatever flavor of GPSr. From my perspective, Topo 7 is just way too involved/time consuming/resource intensive for a signifiant geographic area.

Then to complete this, in addtion to the USGS 3TDQs on a 60CSx, one can also load Sat 10 photo imagery and Color Aerial Photo imagery for a 2,500 sq mile (from base camp, we could be going out for day runs of 25 miles out in any direction, so I've accumulated that much for my 16GB SDHC card)?

Somebody can testify that they have already done this with similar, but superior maps, on a 60CSx?

And far more easily on a 60CSx?

As for what someone should buy today ... the PN-40 as it exists today is simply a non-starter for any kind of routine geocaching or hiking. The power problems, lock ups, and kludges just make it impractical from the start line. Hopefully, the new beta due today will help ... time will obviously tell. Forget the maps, what we have now with the PN-40 is not reliable. Today, like it or not, the market belongs to Garmin. Although they all have limitations, the 60CSx, OR 300, and OR 400T are all reliable, trustworthy GPSrs suitable for both routine and serious geocaching. Incidentally, I would also add the Magellan Triton series to that list if they had just an ounce of customer service and/or user community support.

Regardless of my experience that in many months of daily use, it has never failed me.

I guess that I've been inordinately lucky with one of the few units that slipped through?

Regardless that all my personal hands-on experience has been unrelentingly postive,

I've been remiss in recommending the PN-40 to prospective purchasers?

April 18, 2009

As one of the newcomers to the PN-40, I’m lost in regards to some sort of card for the subscription downloads. I had something like $30, or $40 dollars worth of downloads included with my PN-40, Topo package. Of course I used them up the first session without downloading hardly anything. I then simply connected with the delorme website from directly within Netlink and paid, with a credit card to get the annual subscription for $30. Other than sales tax I haven’t had to pay anything else and I get to download. I didn't need or get any card, nor have I had to do anything other than open up Topo to download anything.

I’m still not sure what the map debate is. For street mapping, everyone beats the PN-40 unless they’re using a basemap. For Topo Maps, it’s debatable which is better, the Vector 1:24,000 scale vector products or Delormes downloaded Raster. Myself I lean towards the Vector maps, especially when you take into account the better road data. If you’re talking Garmins TOPO 2008, It’s more of a draw. The only thing I give the edge to the PN-40 for is aerial photos. You can download them into some garmin units with third party software, but the units respond exceptionally slowly, and it’s bug prone. That said, except for highly developed areas, I’m not all that impressed with the aerial photo capability of my Delorme unit. It’s one of those things I probably won’t use much.

Oh well guys, for those of you who own the PN-40, there is new Beta software on Delormes website. I already installed it, and haven’t noticed any problems. There was a mention of additional WAAS improvements, but I haven’t been able to get a WAAS lock since I upgraded, and the unit has been running with 12 sats for over an hour. I fired up the old VistaC in the same area and it obtained a WAAS lock rather quickly. I found the update much quicker and more painless than the updating of the maps in my Nuvi 265WT which I just updated today as well.

By the way, I'm not sure where I fit into the PN-40 camp. I absolutely hate the TOPO software, and am bummed out that nothing else seems to be compatible with the Delorme Units for some reason. The GPS unit itself though I somewhat like, although I wouldn't say I'm a fan by any means. It will be nice if and when the handheld units become as good as the street mapping units are now. I don't even think much about my little Nuvi and street pilot units. They just seem to work beautifully and flawlessly, with the exeption of the times my Nuvi answers the phone when I didn't want it to. I know that's operator error, but I'm blaming the machine anyway.

8.9k · April 18, 2009

New beta uploaded and no problems!! Will check it out thoroughly today while doing a GC101!

April 18, 2009

...Lee has provided some very interesting alternatives concerning iPhone usage. I'm currently with a year to go on my current cellphone contract, so any iPhone for me might be a while. In the meantime, as I encounter other geocachers, I am going to see if they are iPhoning it. And as long as the iPhone is sight unseen for me, I am not going to speak disparagingly of it.
Thanks.

JUST to drag this back to the subject of DeLorme PN-40, however remotely -- I kinda feel DeLorme (and everybody else who makes stand-alone devices) is going to have to seriously rethink their business models over the next few years. As cellular data becomes more ubiquitous, and as delivery of rapdily changing data on demand becomes more and more affordable -- anyone whose business model is based on selling bulk quantities of static data is gonna be in a world of hurt.

It will be interesting to see where the technology goes in this area. I remember a very similar argument back in the early 80’s regarding PC computers. The argument was that no one needed a “computer” on their desktop. Supposedly, within only a couple years all anyone would have would be a terminal, with all the data and computation being stored on mainframe. The only thing I’ve seen change with that debate and theory is timeframe. Bottom line however, people don’t seem to like the subscription model, and things doen’t go the way the software makers desire.

As for stand alone GPS, especially of the hand held type, the cell phone version simply doesn’t work for out door adventurers. In the rocky mountain west for instance, as much as half of many of the states have no cell phone coverage, an issue that has increased rather than improved since things went all digital. (The old digital system had about twice the range) Literally millions of people a year come out here to explore these backcountry regions, and from personal observation, most of them have pretty decent hand held GPS units with them. My own thoughts are that for at least the hand held units, cell type subscription service will be limited if it takes hold for years to come. Given the high percentage of people who never really venture out of the cities however, I'm not willing to bet on it.

9.5k · April 18, 2009

...Lee has provided some very interesting alternatives concerning iPhone usage. I'm currently with a year to go on my current cellphone contract, so any iPhone for me might be a while. In the meantime, as I encounter other geocachers, I am going to see if they are iPhoning it. And as long as the iPhone is sight unseen for me, I am not going to speak disparagingly of it.
Thanks.

JUST to drag this back to the subject of DeLorme PN-40, however remotely -- I kinda feel DeLorme (and everybody else who makes stand-alone devices) is going to have to seriously rethink their business models over the next few years. As cellular data becomes more ubiquitous, and as delivery of rapdily changing data on demand becomes more and more affordable -- anyone whose business model is based on selling bulk quantities of static data is gonna be in a world of hurt.

It will be interesting to see where the technology goes in this area. I remember a very similar argument back in the early 80’s regarding PC computers. The argument was that no one needed a “computer” on their desktop. Supposedly, within only a couple years all anyone would have would be a terminal, with all the data and computation being stored on mainframe. The only thing I’ve seen change with that debate and theory is timeframe. Bottom line however, people don’t seem to like the subscription model, and things doen’t go the way the software makers desire.

As for stand alone GPS, especially of the hand held type, the cell phone version simply doesn’t work for out door adventurers. In the rocky mountain west for instance, as much as half of many of the states have no cell phone coverage, an issue that has increased rather than improved since things went all digital. (The old digital system had about twice the range) Literally millions of people a year come out here to explore these backcountry regions, and from personal observation, most of them have pretty decent hand held GPS units with them. My own thoughts are that for at least the hand held units, cell type subscription service will be limited if it takes hold for years to come. Given the high percentage of people who never really venture out of the cities however, I'm not willing to bet on it.

I see the subscription issue going both ways. I like the fact I can subscribe and download exactly what I want and not at an exhorbitant pricing structure such as Bushnell's or Magellan's when you consider the magnitude of area involved with some states. At the end of my download buffet, I can choose to continue to or not with the subscription. Now this model may change over time, but one has to remember that at one time under DeLorme, it would have cost me over $17K to download all of Washington. Under the then PN-20 business model, that was totally unacceptable by any stretch of my imagination. Today, $30 for a year's worth of unlimited downloads is a much more acceptable model for me. So as much as one wants to gripe about the subscription to make it work, you just have to look at the alternatives that are currently available. No business is in it for the pure altruistic reason of just because. They have to answer to the bottom line, otherwise, it just isn't going to happen.

What gets me is on one hand some people are griping about subscription based downloads, then extol the cellular service and then go to great lengths to explain how that is so much better. To that, I must say... "Huh?" <_< You're paying for the download one way or another. It's Comcast versus DTV. It becomes a personal choice of how you want to receive your programming. One isn't significantly better over the other unless you have one of two conditions. 1) One of the services is simply not available to you or 2) Their service really does suck in your area. Everything else is superfluous... bells and whistles.

I think the manner in which I can use the DeLorme model ultimately saves me in terms of time for the initial amount of up front time I have to do to download the imagery. I don't have to worry about connectivity, and my reliance on Google Earth or MS Virtual Earth is significantly reduced for areas that have seriously low quality imagery. In comparison, some of the imagery that DeLorme has to offer, is far superior to either of the online services and I have had all three up at one time for comparisons. The Olympic Peninsula imagery in Washington is far superior over the crud I had to use with the online services. The only reason I can come with is it isn't a commercially viable provision for the online services to make use of currently available higher quality imagery. My motivation falls under #2 for my Comcast/DTV comparison. Thus I pay for the better service. IMO that is DeLorme for my needs.

Edited to add just one more comment.

I'm thankful cellular service doesn't reach some of the areas I go to. The noise pollution of someone gabbing on the phone that far in would just be painful to me. I trekked far enough to get away from it. I would like to enjoy the peace that I strived for while enjoying the raw scenery.

Edited April 18, 2009 by TotemLake

4.3k · April 18, 2009

Searching_ut & Totem_Lake, I'm not sure if I made my point clearly enough.

I have no complaints about subscriptions. My observations were about the delivery and packaging methods for the data. "Bulk packaged" vs "On demand" for lack of better names.

Bulk packaged (select and download everything I might need, and carry the whole data set with me) is good for large amounts of data that doesn't change much (topo maps, for example), and that I'll want to carry around when I'm "off-the-grid." Downside is it takes a bit of planning and time to get what I want loaded.

On demand (what I need, when I need it) is better for dynamic data (current weather, events, road maps, business listings, etc) as well as providing "instant gratification." Downside is that you can't be on the grid everywhere.

The increasing availability of high-speed wireless data just changes the size of the market niches for each type of device.

Edited April 19, 2009 by lee_rimar

9.5k · April 19, 2009

Searching_ut & Totem_Lake, I'm not sure if I made my point clearly enough.

I have no complaints about subscriptions. My observations were about the delivery and packaging methods for the data. "Bulk packaged" vs "On demand" for lack of better names.

Bulk packaged (select and download everything I might need, and carry the whole data set with me) is good for large amounts of data that doesn't change much (topo maps, for example), and that I'll want to carry around when I'm "off-the-grid." Downside is it takes a bit of planning and time to get what I want loaded.

On demand (what I need, when I need it) is better for dynamic data (current weather, events, road maps, business listings, etc) as well as providing "instant gratification." Downside is that you can't be on the grid everywhere.

The increasing availability of high-speed wireless data just changes the size of the market niches for each type of device.

Then I'm missing all of the hullaballoo over the PN-40's delivery versus the Cellular delivery. Yes they are different. But they serve different purposes and not all people have the same need of instant gratification. I think we are all in agreement on that. It feels like this was brought up as a sidetrack. I guess I'm still missing the intent of your point for bringing it up in a PN-40 thread.

April 19, 2009

I started this with a simple question (Has anyone tried the Delorme PN-40. Is it an outstanding unit? Is the small screen an issue? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.) and ended up with more information then I needed. I went to REI to check out the PN-40 and I wanted to see what it could do. I turned on the unit and the batteries were low and I asked the guy at REI to put in new batteries. He opened a new pack of batteries and after trying for 10 minutes to turn the unit on, I gave up and thank the gentleman for showing me the PN-40. I won't be buying the PN-40. It's too bad because I was leaning to the PN-40. Sorry Delorme.

April 19, 2009

I started this with a simple question (Has anyone tried the Delorme PN-40. Is it an outstanding unit? Is the small screen an issue? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.) and ended up with more information then I needed. I went to REI to check out the PN-40 and I wanted to see what it could do. I turned on the unit and the batteries were low and I asked the guy at REI to put in new batteries. He opened a new pack of batteries and after trying for 10 minutes to turn the unit on, I gave up and thank the gentleman for showing me the PN-40. I won't be buying the PN-40. It's too bad because I was leaning to the PN-40. Sorry Delorme.

I just heard a gavel ... case closed.

8.9k · April 19, 2009

I started this with a simple question (Has anyone tried the Delorme PN-40. Is it an outstanding unit? Is the small screen an issue? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.) and ended up with more information then I needed. I went to REI to check out the PN-40 and I wanted to see what it could do. I turned on the unit and the batteries were low and I asked the guy at REI to put in new batteries. He opened a new pack of batteries and after trying for 10 minutes to turn the unit on, I gave up and thank the gentleman for showing me the PN-40. I won't be buying the PN-40. It's too bad because I was leaning to the PN-40. Sorry Delorme.

Do you know if the clerk even knew how to place the batteries in? He may have put them in backwards, causing a short to the unit! I wouldn't give up merely because of that one, but it's definitely your call!! I see Tigerz is rejoicing, but I find it too bad that someone was turned off of a unit merely because the clerk might not have been shown enough to know what he was doing (the batteries are backwards from the 60 CSx if I remember correctly). Maybe a bit more researching could have worked for you!

I also don't see this as a competition to see who "wins" the debate (as the "case closed" comment might infer to some), more like a chance to get info and to talk about the unit. Some with serious gripes seem to have forgoten that Garmin had their fair share of issues as well (still do???), but they do seem quick to jump in and rail against the PN-40. Oh well, I'm still more than happy to have bought my PN-40 and will continue to share my happy experiences!

Edited April 19, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

4.3k · April 19, 2009

... I guess I'm still missing the intent of your point for bringing it up in a PN-40 thread.

Ah, just the usual off-topic drifting :unsure:

But I wasn't the one who originally brought it up. I rambled into that response about the iPhone in reply to some other drifter offering a completely spurious cost comparison of using an iTunes to download music vs DeLorme's $30/year subscription for maps.

Edited April 19, 2009 by lee_rimar

8.9k · April 19, 2009

... I guess I'm still missing the intent of your point for bringing it up in a PN-40 thread.
Ah, just the usual off-topic drifting

But I wasn't the one to originally bring it up. I rambled into in response about the iPhone (and rambled into market niches) in reply to some other drifter offering a completely spurious cost comparison of using an iTunes to download music vs DeLorme's $30/year subscription for maps.

Maybe in THIS thread, that's what happened....but I thought you were one of the ones who started the whole debate to begin with (I could be mistaken though, there has been an awful lot of talk about it in many threads before).

4.3k · April 19, 2009

Maybe in THIS thread, that's what happened...

Yes, in response to TL's question in this thread, I replied about the content in this thread :unsure:

But I certainly do talk about other things in other threads and sometimes the subjects overlap. Entirely understandable that you could think "Oooh, he's on about THAT again...!"

Edited April 19, 2009 by lee_rimar

April 19, 2009

I'd like to add my two cents, from an "independent observer" point-of-view. I'm getting ready to buy my first GPSr, and have been following many of the PN-40-related threads. What I see is not so much a "bashing" of the PN-40, but rather an appraisal of its (serious, IMO) downfalls. Now I realize not everybody is suffering from problems, and that's terrific for those who are not. But as a prospective buyer, I would be doing myself a terrible disservice to ignore those problem reports.

For some reason, many PN-40 owners seem to take those reports as attacks on either themselves, or on Delorme as a company. I've not seen anyone attacking either, rather I see them attacking the current state of the device. Nor have I seen anyone claim other GPSrs did not experience growing pains. But that's not relevant to the new buyer. I'm not interested in how some device performed when it was first released a year or two ago. I'm interested in how it performs NOW. Given Delorme's terrific support and their continued presence here, I have little doubt they'll get these issues worked out, and have a really great, robust device. But as of NOW, I've scratched the PN-40 off my list. Growing pains are something I'd rather avoid.

-- Rob

Edited April 19, 2009 by bimbert84

April 19, 2009

I started this with a simple question (Has anyone tried the Delorme PN-40. Is it an outstanding unit? Is the small screen an issue? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.) and ended up with more information then I needed. I went to REI to check out the PN-40 and I wanted to see what it could do. I turned on the unit and the batteries were low and I asked the guy at REI to put in new batteries. He opened a new pack of batteries and after trying for 10 minutes to turn the unit on, I gave up and thank the gentleman for showing me the PN-40. I won't be buying the PN-40. It's too bad because I was leaning to the PN-40. Sorry Delorme.

Do you know if the clerk even knew how to place the batteries in? He may have put them in backwards, causing a short to the unit! I wouldn't give up merely because of that one, but it's definitely your call!! I see Tigerz is rejoicing, but I find it too bad that someone was turned off of a unit merely because the clerk might not have been shown enough to know what he was doing (the batteries are backwards from the 60 CSx if I remember correctly). Maybe a bit more researching could have worked for you!

I also don't see this as a competition to see who "wins" the debate (as the "case closed" comment might infer to some), more like a chance to get info and to talk about the unit. Some with serious gripes seem to have forgoten that Garmin had their fair share of issues as well (still do???), but they do seem quick to jump in and rail against the PN-40. Oh well, I'm still more than happy to have bought my PN-40 and will continue to share my happy experiences!

Yes, I was standing next to the guy when he put the batteries in and they were correct.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Lake Elmo Kid

4.3k · April 19, 2009

... I was standing next to the guy when he put the batteries in and they were correct.

A number of PN-40 users have had power-up problems, and DeLorme has acknowledged this on their own support forums.

What has helped a lot of folks: Take the batteries out. Hold the power key down for several seconds to make sure charge is completely drained from all components. Put fresh batteries in the right way. Try to power up by holding the power key until you see the DeLorme Splash screen - takes a second or two, not just a quick tap of the key.

If that little ritual (performed at least twice to ensure you didn't miss a step) doesn't solve the problem, contact DeLorme's tech support.

Edited April 19, 2009 by lee_rimar

8.9k · April 19, 2009

I'd like to add my two cents, from an "independent observer" point-of-view. I'm getting ready to buy my first GPSr, and have been following many of the PN-40-related threads. What I see is not so much a "bashing" of the PN-40, but rather an appraisal of its (serious, IMO) downfalls. Now I realize not everybody is suffering from problems, and that's terrific for those who are not. But as a prospective buyer, I would be doing myself a terrible disservice to ignore those problem reports.

For some reason, many PN-40 owners seem to take those reports as attacks on either themselves, or on Delorme as a company. I've not seen anyone attacking either, rather I see them attacking the current state of the device. Nor have I seen anyone claim other GPSrs did not experience growing pains. But that's not relevant to the new buyer. I'm not interested in how some device performed when it was first released a year or two ago. I'm interested in how it performs NOW. Given Delorme's terrific support and their continued presence here, I have little doubt they'll get these issues worked out, and have a really great, robust device. But as of NOW, I've scratched the PN-40 off my list. Growing pains are something I'd rather avoid.

-- Rob

Some people feel this way and decide to buy another unit, good for them, that's what I HOPE these threads are for! Some realize that, although there are some problems, many are seeing none and are happy, kind of a balanced reporting from both camps which lends to the belief the product can and will indeed do as advertised and are willing to deal with any issues to get a great unit! I saw another prospective buyer go the route of buy dependable now and hope for upgrade later, that's great, whatever makes the BUYER happy.

Fair, honest reportings of problems is great, I do sympathize with those who have seen troubles. Sme try to say disparaging things which are indeed bashings, something I try very hard not to do when talking about other units. I will continue to report my experiences and add to whatever discussions come about.

As for the reason to bring up the past history of other units, just pointing out that new units tend to get better quickly (noting how the other unts turned out, and knowing DeLorme's willingness to better their product, I would guess improvements are going to be fast and impressive). I had heard of some problems when researching my purchase, but I was happy to overlook them as I ws confident in DeLorme's ability to produce the unit...I am very happy about the choice I made! Another reason to bring up past history of other units is to point out that DeLorme units are not the only ones with problems...just balancing the scales a bit for those who missed any reports otherwise!

As for growing pains, which unit can you choose nowadays that hasn't had their share and are free from them now?? The etrex line? The 60CSx? This is the question I saw answered just days ago with the purchase of a 60CSx...some don't want to take chances (as yourself), some are happy to make that leap!

9.5k · April 19, 2009

Maybe in THIS thread, that's what happened...
Yes, in response to TL's question in this thread, I replied about the content in this thread

But I certainly do talk about other things in other threads and sometimes the subjects overlap. Entirely understandable that you could think "Oooh, he's on about THAT again...!"

Well then it's my bad for the drift. Sorry about that. It seems I can't keep up so I'll just keep quiet. :unsure:

9.5k · April 19, 2009

I started this with a simple question (Has anyone tried the Delorme PN-40. Is it an outstanding unit? Is the small screen an issue? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.) and ended up with more information then I needed. I went to REI to check out the PN-40 and I wanted to see what it could do. I turned on the unit and the batteries were low and I asked the guy at REI to put in new batteries. He opened a new pack of batteries and after trying for 10 minutes to turn the unit on, I gave up and thank the gentleman for showing me the PN-40. I won't be buying the PN-40. It's too bad because I was leaning to the PN-40. Sorry Delorme.

To be fair, you did ask in the middle of a bunch of threads about users and the PN-40. :unsure: Also, you'll need to come into these forums expecting some sort of debate when asking about a product that is being discussed proliferantly.

April 19, 2009

I think that what Lake Elmo Kid saw is an additional reason to give up on it, IMO.

If the unit can be shorted and turned into a brick because of battery placement, that's a design flaw.

Lake Elmo Kid is lucky that he experienced that in the store with someone else's unit, rather than elbow-deep in the field with his own.

Granted, there are plenty of individuals whose needs are met by the pn-40, and who understand the various issues and have committed themselves to working around them. That's awesome.

But I think a great milestone has been reached in this thread: not that the pn-40 is useless, or a Garmin is useless - that there are many of us who are drawn to the pn-40, but have serious concerns about it. This thread proves that those concerns are well-founded, and are valid to have.

They're not attacks as some so quickly like to label them.

I have also decided against the DeLorme unit. Not because of its capabilities, or the direction DeLorme is taking it. But because of the quirks and unpolished state it seems to represent at the current moment.

I feel that when DeLorme gets their units at the point they have envisioned, it will be the top unit, with little question. Right now though, I'm not ready to buy into an experiment.

Before I buy a pn-40 (or whatever version is next), it would have to meet these criteria:

- Accidental battery placement won't brick it

- Battery life is 12hrs +

- Paperless geocaching is not beta

- WAAS support is reliable

- Data transfer from PC to unit is substantially faster (should be minutes, not hours)

- Topo7 (or the next version) is scrapped and replaced. I know a lot of work went into it, and I understand it does what the developers intend. But to me, it was designed from the developers perspective, rather than to the users needs. In the days of Windows 98/ME, the app wouldn't receive much criticism. But today, when the common application is much more intuitive, resource-efficient, and uses a conventional interface, Topo7 is just another obstacle between the user and their GPS; which is to say, another obstacle between the office and the field.

If DeLorme's software and hardware performance were anything like their customer service and personal investment into hearing peoples concerns, I'd buy one for everybody I know.

I just wish that was the case, because the pn-40 is the unit I want to be using, though unfortunately it is the unit I can't be using.

2.1k · April 19, 2009

I feel that when DeLorme gets their units at the point they have envisioned, it will be the top unit, with little question. Right now though, I'm not ready to buy into an experiment.

Before I buy a pn-40 (or whatever version is next), it would have to meet these criteria:

- Accidental battery placement won't brick it

- Battery life is 12hrs +

- Paperless geocaching is not beta

- WAAS support is reliable

- Data transfer from PC to unit is substantially faster (should be minutes, not hours)

- Topo7 (or the next version) is scrapped and replaced. I know a lot of work went into it, and I understand it does what the developers intend. But to me, it was designed from the developers perspective, rather than to the users needs. In the days of Windows 98/ME, the app wouldn't receive much criticism. But today, when the common application is much more intuitive, resource-efficient, and uses a conventional interface, Topo7 is just another obstacle between the user and their GPS; which is to say, another obstacle between the office and the field.

If DeLorme's software and hardware performance were anything like their customer service and personal investment into hearing peoples concerns, I'd buy one for everybody I know.

I just wish that was the case, because the pn-40 is the unit I want to be using, though unfortunately it is the unit I can't be using.

Hey, this is a great list and maybe I can help you make it more useful to others considering a purchase by drilling down a little.

But, firstly, allow me to comment on its timeliness. Had I read this last year, I never may have aquired a PN-40. Fortunately, I the intervening time, I've never suffered from any of those supposed shortcomings.

But again, I'm here to help others.

So, exactly which model of a competivitve, alternative handheld GPSr would you suggest that complies with all the items that you have listed above.

For example: Paperless geocaching - Many herein acknowledge that the requirement for paperless geocaching support eliminates all but the Garmin Colorado, Oregon and PN-40. (Well, some claim that they paperless cache with a 60CSx, but they also admit that they schlepp around with a PDA.)

For example: Battery life - Assuming that you insist on the above and are not going to bother with a PDA, do the Colorado and/or Oregon meet your battery life expectations.

For example: Data transfer in minutes - Are the Colorado and/or Oregon capable of receiving several GBs of data in a matter of minutes?

What type of data are the capable of receiving?

Can one load on them 2,500 square miles of photo imagery in a few minutes?

If the answers are no, none and no, what is the basis of download in minutes criterion?

Can you add some specificity?

Exactly which model have you held in your hands would you make a recommendation to prospective purchasers?

April 19, 2009

Hey, this is a great list and maybe I can help you make it more useful to others considering a purchase by drilling down a little.

But, firstly, allow me to comment on its timeliness. Had I read this last year, I never may have aquired a PN-40. Fortunately, I the intervening time, I've never suffered from any of those supposed shortcomings.

But again, I'm here to help others.

So, exactly which model of a competivitve, alternative handheld GPSr would you suggest that complies with all the items that you have listed above.

For example: Paperless geocaching - Many herein acknowledge that the requirement for paperless geocaching support eliminates all but the Garmin Colorado, Oregon and PN-40.

At first, I was going to reply point-to-point to demonstrate that there are models which fit the needs I listed perfectly (I'm quite happy with my Colorado). But, I disagree with this idea that anyone not admirably in love with the pn-40 must validate or justify their opinions to others ad nauseum, so I'll kindly not do so.

This is the sort of thing others have commented on. It's nearly impossible to make the suggestion that the pn-40 is not the most perfect unit ever made without the pn-40 pack hounds jumping on said posts within minutes of them being posted.

For example: Data transfer in minutes - Are the Colorado and/or Oregon capable of receiving several GBs of data in a matter of minutes?

What type of data are the capable of receiving?

Can one load on them 2,500 square miles of photo imagery in a few minutes?

If the answers are no, none and no, what is the basis of download in minutes criterion?

Can you add some specificity?

Can you or any pn-40 owner transfer GBs of data to the unit in a matter of minutes? No - so why imply it? That's not really helping someone who might not be able to make that distinction.

And there's really no need to turn a criticism about the speed of data transfer into a discussion of what types and how much data can be transfered. Apples and oranges. (You'll also notice in my list of things for a GPS to do, photo/raster imagery isn't even listed.)

The pn-40 does not transfer the same amount of data from the PC to the unit as quickly as the others you mentioned (Colorado and Oregon). This is well established, and it ought to be addressed without being convoluted to something else.

DeLorme's own team members on their forums have brought this up, and justified it by sacrificing speed for waterpoofability.

I appreciate your efforts to help (and I imagine many others do, as well). But I don't think offering the pn-40 as the only option to be considered is the only way to help (unless DeLorme is paying your bills! )

Edited April 19, 2009 by stevensj2

8.9k · April 19, 2009

Hey, this is a great list and maybe I can help you make it more useful to others considering a purchase by drilling down a little.

But, firstly, allow me to comment on its timeliness. Had I read this last year, I never may have aquired a PN-40. Fortunately, I the intervening time, I've never suffered from any of those supposed shortcomings.

But again, I'm here to help others.

So, exactly which model of a competivitve, alternative handheld GPSr would you suggest that complies with all the items that you have listed above.

For example: Paperless geocaching - Many herein acknowledge that the requirement for paperless geocaching support eliminates all but the Garmin Colorado, Oregon and PN-40.

At first, I was going to reply point-to-point to demonstrate that there are models which fit the needs I listed perfectly (I'm quite happy with my Colorado). But, I disagree with this idea that anyone not admirably in love with the pn-40 must validate or justify their opinions to others ad nauseum, so I'll kindly not do so.

This is the sort of thing others have commented on. It's nearly impossible to make the suggestion that the pn-40 is not the most perfect unit ever made without the pn-40 pack hounds jumping on said posts within minutes of them being posted.

For example: Data transfer in minutes - Are the Colorado and/or Oregon capable of receiving several GBs of data in a matter of minutes?

What type of data are the capable of receiving?

Can one load on them 2,500 square miles of photo imagery in a few minutes?

If the answers are no, none and no, what is the basis of download in minutes criterion?

Can you add some specificity?

Can you or any pn-40 owner transfer GBs of data to the unit in a matter of minutes? No - so why imply it? That's not really helping someone who might not be able to make that distinction.

And there's really no need to turn a criticism about the speed of data transfer into a discussion of what types and how much data can be transfered. Apples and oranges. (You'll also notice in my list of things for a GPS to do, photo/raster imagery isn't even listed!)

The pn-40 does not transfer the same amount of data from the PC to the unit as the others you mentioned (Colorado and Oregon). This is well established, and it ought to be addressed without being convoluted to something else.

DeLorme's own team members on their forums have brought this up, and justified it by sacrificing speed for waterpoofability.

I appreciate your efforts to help (and I imagine many others do, as well). But I don't think offering the pn-40 as the only option to be considered is the only way to help (unless DeLorme is paying your bills! )

As to battery life, I can tell you of tests being done by an unbiased friend, she is testing the unit with Duracell dark green rechargeables and yesterday's results were 11 hours without the backlight on! Not bad, about par with the OR and CO! Today, she's testing it with the backlight on, I'll post results when I get them! Battery life doesn't seem to be such the issue some have made it out to be!

As to WAAS, can you name what units fit this criteria?

Your last comment about offering PN-40 as the only option...while I can't speak for all, MOST of us who offer any advice to anyone do so giving options and listing where to get info. Since I see many Garmin lovers quick to offer up the Garmin of their choice without offering options, do you look badly at their offers of help too and make claims that Garmin is paying their bills? This could all be more helpful if you'd not make this into a personal argument and keep it to the facts!

Edited April 19, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

April 19, 2009

Hey, this is a great list and maybe I can help you make it more useful to others considering a purchase by drilling down a little.

But, firstly, allow me to comment on its timeliness. Had I read this last year, I never may have aquired a PN-40. Fortunately, I the intervening time, I've never suffered from any of those supposed shortcomings.

But again, I'm here to help others.

So, exactly which model of a competivitve, alternative handheld GPSr would you suggest that complies with all the items that you have listed above.

For example: Paperless geocaching - Many herein acknowledge that the requirement for paperless geocaching support eliminates all but the Garmin Colorado, Oregon and PN-40.

At first, I was going to reply point-to-point to demonstrate that there are models which fit the needs I listed perfectly (I'm quite happy with my Colorado). But, I disagree with this idea that anyone not admirably in love with the pn-40 must validate or justify their opinions to others ad nauseum, so I'll kindly not do so.

This is the sort of thing others have commented on. It's nearly impossible to make the suggestion that the pn-40 is not the most perfect unit ever made without the pn-40 pack hounds jumping on said posts within minutes of them being posted.

For example: Data transfer in minutes - Are the Colorado and/or Oregon capable of receiving several GBs of data in a matter of minutes?

What type of data are the capable of receiving?

Can one load on them 2,500 square miles of photo imagery in a few minutes?

If the answers are no, none and no, what is the basis of download in minutes criterion?

Can you add some specificity?

Can you or any pn-40 owner transfer GBs of data to the unit in a matter of minutes? No - so why imply it? That's not really helping someone who might not be able to make that distinction.

And there's really no need to turn a criticism about the speed of data transfer into a discussion of what types and how much data can be transfered. Apples and oranges. (You'll also notice in my list of things for a GPS to do, photo/raster imagery isn't even listed!)

The pn-40 does not transfer the same amount of data from the PC to the unit as the others you mentioned (Colorado and Oregon). This is well established, and it ought to be addressed without being convoluted to something else.

DeLorme's own team members on their forums have brought this up, and justified it by sacrificing speed for waterpoofability.

I appreciate your efforts to help (and I imagine many others do, as well). But I don't think offering the pn-40 as the only option to be considered is the only way to help (unless DeLorme is paying your bills! )

As to battery life, I can tell you of tests being done by an unbiased friend, she is testing the unit with Duracell dark green rechargeables and yesterday's results were 11 hours without the backlight on! Not bad, about par with the OR and CO! Today, she's testing it with the backlight on, I'll post results when I get them! Battery life doesn't seem to be such the issue some have made it out to be!

As to WAAS, can you name what units fit this criteria?

Your last comment about offering PN-40 as the only option...while I can't speak for all, MOST of us who offer any advice to anyone do so giving options and listing where to get info. Since I see many Garmin lovers quick to offer up the Garmin of their choice without offering options, do you look badly at their offers of help too and make claims that Garmin is paying their bills? This could all be more helpful if you'd not make this into a personal argument and keep it to the facts!

I believe you might kindly notice that I didn't bring up Garmin - another member that I quoted brought the Oregon/Colorado into the discussion as comparisons. But I've noticed you have chosen to make the suggestion to me instead, which is interesting. (A search would also show that in other threads I have suggested the pn-40 to members based on their criteria).

No one is making this a personal argument on either side (IMO). Even among strong disagreements, everyone has remained courteous and kind.

But why can't complaints or concerns about the pn-40 be left as they are? Why must they constantly be challenged with such fervor?

I understand the psychology in people needing to feel reassured of their purchases, so they are more likely to offer positive reviews about the things they own (which is why I seldom read the reviews on online shopping sites).

The DeLorme does not fit the criteria that I've mentioned. I wish it did. but it doesn't. Does that really make me quilty of some offense, or an enemy to the friends here at GC.com?

I certainly don't think so. Different strokes for different folks :huh:

(Having the options, I'd gladly place some beers at local coordinates, and whether you use a DeLorme or Garmin, or paperclip and matchbox, to get there, I don't mind! A geocacher of any kind is a friend of mine!)

April 19, 2009

Hey, this is a great list and maybe I can help you make it more useful to others considering a purchase by drilling down a little.

But, firstly, allow me to comment on its timeliness. Had I read this last year, I never may have aquired a PN-40. Fortunately, I the intervening time, I've never suffered from any of those supposed shortcomings.

But again, I'm here to help others.

So, exactly which model of a competivitve, alternative handheld GPSr would you suggest that complies with all the items that you have listed above.

For example: Paperless geocaching - Many herein acknowledge that the requirement for paperless geocaching support eliminates all but the Garmin Colorado, Oregon and PN-40.

At first, I was going to reply point-to-point to demonstrate that there are models which fit the needs I listed perfectly (I'm quite happy with my Colorado). But, I disagree with this idea that anyone not admirably in love with the pn-40 must validate or justify their opinions to others ad nauseum, so I'll kindly not do so.

This is the sort of thing others have commented on. It's nearly impossible to make the suggestion that the pn-40 is not the most perfect unit ever made without the pn-40 pack hounds jumping on said posts within minutes of them being posted.

For example: Data transfer in minutes - Are the Colorado and/or Oregon capable of receiving several GBs of data in a matter of minutes?

What type of data are the capable of receiving?

Can one load on them 2,500 square miles of photo imagery in a few minutes?

If the answers are no, none and no, what is the basis of download in minutes criterion?

Can you add some specificity?

Can you or any pn-40 owner transfer GBs of data to the unit in a matter of minutes? No - so why imply it? That's not really helping someone who might not be able to make that distinction.

And there's really no need to turn a criticism about the speed of data transfer into a discussion of what types and how much data can be transfered. Apples and oranges. (You'll also notice in my list of things for a GPS to do, photo/raster imagery isn't even listed.)

The pn-40 does not transfer the same amount of data from the PC to the unit as quickly as the others you mentioned (Colorado and Oregon). This is well established, and it ought to be addressed without being convoluted to something else.

DeLorme's own team members on their forums have brought this up, and justified it by sacrificing speed for waterpoofability.

I appreciate your efforts to help (and I imagine many others do, as well). But I don't think offering the pn-40 as the only option to be considered is the only way to help (unless DeLorme is paying your bills! )

Loading several gigabytes of maps onto a high speed memory card is really only a matter of minutes.

It wasn't one or two minutes, but not an objectionably long period. I have vector topo and USGS quads for the Colorado front range from Ft Collins and Greeley down thru Colorado Springs on it as well as color imagery for the metro area and room to spare for trips. Also nicely scales my 1400 miles of bicycle trails as an overlay over whatever base map I want. The street maps on the topo match up fairly well with reality.

Others may complain about the resolution of the imagery, but the 1M imagery was sufficient to pick out overgrown defunct logging roads to allow me to follow them back to the truck last fall instead of climbing over seemingly endless dead-falls or very lengthy & hilly detours.

My76CSx couldn't do that even though it is very reliable and at the top of the class for non-play uses.

I use both regularly.

Edited April 19, 2009 by gps_dr

8.9k · April 19, 2009

Hey, this is a great list and maybe I can help you make it more useful to others considering a purchase by drilling down a little.

But, firstly, allow me to comment on its timeliness. Had I read this last year, I never may have aquired a PN-40. Fortunately, I the intervening time, I've never suffered from any of those supposed shortcomings.

But again, I'm here to help others.

So, exactly which model of a competivitve, alternative handheld GPSr would you suggest that complies with all the items that you have listed above.

For example: Paperless geocaching - Many herein acknowledge that the requirement for paperless geocaching support eliminates all but the Garmin Colorado, Oregon and PN-40.

At first, I was going to reply point-to-point to demonstrate that there are models which fit the needs I listed perfectly (I'm quite happy with my Colorado). But, I disagree with this idea that anyone not admirably in love with the pn-40 must validate or justify their opinions to others ad nauseum, so I'll kindly not do so.

This is the sort of thing others have commented on. It's nearly impossible to make the suggestion that the pn-40 is not the most perfect unit ever made without the pn-40 pack hounds jumping on said posts within minutes of them being posted.

For example: Data transfer in minutes - Are the Colorado and/or Oregon capable of receiving several GBs of data in a matter of minutes?

What type of data are the capable of receiving?

Can one load on them 2,500 square miles of photo imagery in a few minutes?

If the answers are no, none and no, what is the basis of download in minutes criterion?

Can you add some specificity?

Can you or any pn-40 owner transfer GBs of data to the unit in a matter of minutes? No - so why imply it? That's not really helping someone who might not be able to make that distinction.

And there's really no need to turn a criticism about the speed of data transfer into a discussion of what types and how much data can be transfered. Apples and oranges. (You'll also notice in my list of things for a GPS to do, photo/raster imagery isn't even listed!)

The pn-40 does not transfer the same amount of data from the PC to the unit as the others you mentioned (Colorado and Oregon). This is well established, and it ought to be addressed without being convoluted to something else.

DeLorme's own team members on their forums have brought this up, and justified it by sacrificing speed for waterpoofability.

I appreciate your efforts to help (and I imagine many others do, as well). But I don't think offering the pn-40 as the only option to be considered is the only way to help (unless DeLorme is paying your bills! )

As to battery life, I can tell you of tests being done by an unbiased friend, she is testing the unit with Duracell dark green rechargeables and yesterday's results were 11 hours without the backlight on! Not bad, about par with the OR and CO! Today, she's testing it with the backlight on, I'll post results when I get them! Battery life doesn't seem to be such the issue some have made it out to be!

As to WAAS, can you name what units fit this criteria?

Your last comment about offering PN-40 as the only option...while I can't speak for all, MOST of us who offer any advice to anyone do so giving options and listing where to get info. Since I see many Garmin lovers quick to offer up the Garmin of their choice without offering options, do you look badly at their offers of help too and make claims that Garmin is paying their bills? This could all be more helpful if you'd not make this into a personal argument and keep it to the facts!

I believe you might kindly notice that I didn't bring up Garmin - another member that I quoted brought the Oregon/Colorado into the discussion as comparisons. But I've noticed you have chosen to make the suggestion to me instead, which is interesting. (A search would also show that in other threads I have suggested the pn-40 to members based on their criteria).

If you look, I never said you DID bring up Garmin, and where did I make a suggestion? You said TCP only brings the PN-40 as an option when posting and I stated many Garmin lovers are guilty of the same. By following your thought, it must also look bad for those doing this (unless Garmin is paying their bills)...right?

No one is making this a personal argument on either side (IMO). Even among strong disagreements, everyone has remained courteous and kind.

Actually, I saw it kind of being made personal when you inferred that DeLorme was making TCP's payments. First, no one's business, second, and so what if they are? Does this mean he can't make an honest observation? Now, if you weren't actually saying this, my apologies, just that I did see it that way

But why can't complaints or concerns about the pn-40 be left as they are? Why must they constantly be challenged with such fervor?

On the other hand, why can't those compaints be addressed without us being called fanboys or whatever the new label is? People in favor of other units are also quick to jump to the defense of their favorite unit, should this all stop and only negatives be mentioned? No one would ever buy any type of GPS! I'm more than happy to see a complaint be made, I'm also more than happy to let others know this isn't a problem in ALL of the units if I'm not seeing this problem, may be a spotty issue! Some find fault with a lot of stuff which is also subjective, I am happy to add my subjective opinion when this happens (maps being one of those topics)...fair and balanced.

I understand the psychology in people needing to feel reassured of their purchases, so they are more likely to offer positive reviews about the things they own (which is why I seldom read the reviews on online shopping sites).

Believe me, IF I had a problem, the people here would be the second to know right after DeLorme! I am never shy to gripe! I have no need to reassure myself of my purchase, I'm quite happy!

The DeLorme does not fit the criteria that I've mentioned. I wish it did. but it doesn't. Does that really make me quilty of some offense, or an enemy to the friends here at GC.com?

But, you already said this. My question was, what unit does? It's not an attack, not being smart, just wondering what unit gets WAAS reliably. Do you truly consider yourself an enemy to anyone here? If so, maybe you should step back and relax! I see (mostly) a friendly debate going on here, I'm sure I'd be happy to buy most of you a beer at the end of the day!

I certainly don't think so. Different strokes for different folks

(Having the options, I'd gladly place some beers at local coordinates, and whether you use a DeLorme or Garmin, or paperclip and matchbox, to get there, I don't mind! A geocacher of any kind is a friend of mine!)

I see we agree here!!

2.1k · April 19, 2009

But why can't complaints or concerns about the pn-40 be left as they are? Why must they constantly be challenged with such fervor?

Challenging with such fervor? I'm simply asking, what do you suggest to someone who is walking into a store, make and model, which meets your requirements as stated above.

Make an model of a superior alternative?

I understand the psychology in people needing to feel reassured of their purchases, so they are more likely to offer positive reviews about the things they own (which is why I seldom read the reviews on online shopping sites).

Not exactly, I've been fortunate not to have experienced the trials and tribulations of a few. I've been up and runnung, non-bricked, on a daily basis for about 4 months now.

The DeLorme does not fit the criteria that I've mentioned. I wish it did. but it doesn't. Does that really make me quilty of some offense, or an enemy to the friends here at GC.com?

Not guilty of anything, nut anything specific regarding your criteria? Make and model.

My presence here is not to contest the opinions which you state.

I make no value judgements regarding the rationality of your criteria where differing from mine.

It is to elicit the wisdom of the other participants in offering advice to those needing guidance in selecting a GPSr for purchase.

In so doing, can you suggest a specific make and model to a prospective purcahser meeting your stated criteria?

April 20, 2009

In so doing, can you suggest a specific make and model to a prospective purchaser meeting your stated criteria?

I could - and it is the GPSr I currently use (Colorado), but in a thread about the DeLorme, I didn't want to make it about any other units. My purpose of asking questions was not to deter others from the pn-40, but to bring up considerations that I think one should think about before purchasing (with any unit).

Since it was asked of me, I trust it won't later be used as a "gotcha" to say that I had been steering the thread to other units.

Without knowing about the battery-brick thing, I doubt most people would ever think of it and look into it.

But, that being said, for anyone in similar shoes as me, the Colorado is not the answer to all the questions, either. I've had some issues with it that first made me consider the pn-40, and to a degree, I am still doing so.

I'm considering challenging myself by buying the pn-40 and seeing how it stacks up to my needs.

To be honest, as much as I debate things with myself (lol) it may be the only real way to see. All in all, at this point, I can only ask questions about the pn-40, rather than answer them

2.1k · April 20, 2009

Before I buy a pn-40 (or whatever version is next), it would have to meet these criteria:

- WAAS support is reliable

This is a reasonable and common criterion.

However, there was an applicable firmware update released Friday and there are now a number of user reports of enhanced WAAS aquisition:

http://forums.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?t=18403

FWIW, of course. :huh:

Anything else?

Edited April 20, 2009 by Team CowboyPapa

Delorme PN-40

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