Delorme PN-40

[+Lake Elmo Kid]

Has anyone tried the Delorme PN-40. Is it an outstanding unit? Is the small screen an issue? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Lake Elmo Kid

[+Pax42]

A search of the forums will bring up many discusions about the PN-40. The "Which is Better" topics tend to get a little heated and sometimes lose sight of the original question. Hopefully this one won't turn into that.

 

I've had my PN-40 since the day they hit the shelves. My opinion is that it is an outstanding unit for geocaching and hiking. I'd like to have a little bigger screen but I don't find it a big deal. Sunlight readability is very good. Road navigation is not one of it's strengths. Dedicated car GPSrs are far better for that task. Being a new unit, It's had its share of bugs but Delorme has been doing a great job getting updates out to solve the issues. My particular unit works great. It's got very good accuracy, maintains 3D lock under tough conditions, and has gotten acceptable battery life (10 -12 hours with lithiums or good quality Li-ion). The paperless caching is fantastic and the aerial imagery has proven very useful. The Delorme forums are great for helping people with problems and questions.

 

My 2 cents.

[+volosong]

I have four handheld GPS units, two older ones and two new ones. The new ones are the DeLorme PN-40 and Garmin GPSmap 60Cx. The capabilities of the PN-40 far outstrip those of the 60Cx.

[aud78]

I wrote a detailed negative review couple weeks ago - take a look.

 

Be sure to also check out positive reviews to balance it out

 

Aud

[+embra]

There is a devoted contingent of PN-40 users here. While I don't dispute Aud's experience, personally I don't find most his crits to beba problem (or more than a minor problem) in my experience. This, of course, goes a long way in explaining why he sent his back and I kept mine. (If my device didn't keep lock well, I'd move on to something else, too.)

 

Here's a nice review that Rich wrote up. He included links to several other reviews at the end of his piece.

Edited April 7, 2009 by embra

[+TotemLake]

...and here's my review.

[+Maingray]

PN-40 is an outstanding unit for the price. Screen is bright, size is ok for the price. Any road ruoting don't touch it, the garmin handhelds (yes, handhelds) do a gazillion-times better job. If you want cheap high quality maps and a paperless caching mode for walking around, this is the unit to get. Buy some 16Gb SD cards too.

 

Bottom line: Hard to get a better unit for that price.

 

Actually, you know what i have no idea how much it is now.

 

I got an $150 off offer from Delorme for the SE...so that would be what now?

 

edit: and it's very orange*.

 

 

*very, very.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Maingray

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'll just say LOVE MINE!!! I have no problem with routing, but I've never had routing before and am THRILLED to have t! Paperless, NICE!! Aerials, NICE!! Price, NICE!!

 

You'd need to pry mine from my cold dead hand, but we do hope it doesn't come to that anytime soon lol

[+Team CowboyPapa]

PN-40 is .......

 

edit: and it's very orange*.

 

 

*very, very.

HUGE 10-4!

 

OTOH, I will not be taking my PN-40 to my haberdasher and asking for a matching tie!

[+RRLover]

...and here's my review.

I tried Safari (native), & Firefox (native), and had Safari spoof every browser known to man and

don't see any text, just several photos, and a link to another page that seems to be missing text.

NEVER had this happen elsewhere on the net.

 

Norm

[+TotemLake]

Use IE as I've been using ActiveX controls to handle some things. I'll be updating the website to be more friendly, but it's going to take a bit of work.

[+RRLover]

Use IE as I've been using ActiveX controls to handle some things. I'll be updating the website to be more friendly, but it's going to take a bit of work.

Purged my cache, spoofed IE 7, still no go. Next time I'm in Windows I'll check a IE (native) in Windows.

I appreciate your efforts, enjoy your writes.

 

Norm

[+dakboy]

Use IE as I've been using ActiveX controls to handle some things. I'll be updating the website to be more friendly, but it's going to take a bit of work.

Purged my cache, spoofed IE 7, still no go. Next time I'm in Windows I'll check a IE (native) in Windows.

I appreciate your efforts, enjoy your writes.

 

Norm

It's bad CSS generated by FrontPage. The text is all there - it's white text on white background. Hit Cmd-A to Select All, Cmd-C to copy, and paste it into something like TextEdit or TextWrangler to actually read it.

 

Or just View Source and read the content w/ the HTML mixed in (there's not much there, so it won't be too hard).

 

ActiveX is never the right answer for a page like that. FrontPage was never the right answer to anything.

[+Searching_ut]

I consider my PN-40 to be a mixed bag of sorts. Great for geocaching, not really my cup of tea for backcountry exploring

 

Strengths:

Reasonably fast to lock in, holds lock fairly well, appears to be accurate to the extent you would expect from a modern GPS unit. The display is above average in view ability without the backlight on, and it has paperless caching capability, an electronic compass that actually works quite well, and a barometer to help mellow out altimeter functions. Cost/functionality ratio is excellent. The menus are easy to navigate, and it has all the functions you would expect in a hand held unit. So far, my reliability and functionality of the unit has been what you would hope for, and I haven’t had any issues in that area at all.

 

Weaknesses:

Included mapping software is free, but that’s about all it’s worth. Display like other handhelds such as etrex line doesn’t have a very high pixel count, thus you can’t display a whole lot of info. The things eats batteries more than most handhelds. Connectivity with software other than Delorme stuff is non existent for the most part, and did I mention the included Topo mapping software is pretty poor? The unit allows display of aerial photos, but you loose so much detail over the same photo on something like google maps that you can’t see trails etc on the units display. On the plus side you can view things such as large as dirt roads, or large terrain features with it, provided you have enough memory. Finally, the track recording and logging of the unit is fairly crude when compared to the garmin units designed for hand held use.

 

All that said, while I would never consider my PN-40 for long jaunts I think I’ll be brave and take my PN-40 as my only handheld unit for a two week Alaskan cruise I’m taking next month. On that trip, we intend to explore fairly close to the ports on shorter 5 to 6 hour trips, and maybe include a little geocaching. With the ability to log my cache finds straight from the PN-40, I’m more likely to actually log in, something I tend to not get around to after most of my vacations. If your primary GPS usage will be geocaching, the paperless capability of the little Delorme units is really quite sweet.

[+Tigerz]

Has anyone tried the Delorme PN-40. Is it an outstanding unit? Is the small screen an issue? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

There seems to be quite a bit of favoritism when others have asked this question. I encourage you to objectively draw your own conclusions from DeLorme's own forums.

 

First, you might want to read this thread at the DeLorme forums. It will tell you about the latest PN-40 firmware and its inability to acquire WAAS, inability to sometimes recover from a loss of signal, corrupt cache pages, and freezes during routing. This second thread will tell you about how the PN-40 can lock up on low voltage levels. There are several fixes that work from time to time or you can return your unit to DeLorme so they can replace the "back plastics" ... and the problem can then repeat itself ... so you can send it back to DeLorme yet again.

 

Finally, you might want to read this thread about the two kludges that are required to get more than one geocache in the unit at a time. If you read to the end of the thread, you'll learn how the involved website was recently hacked exposing us all to malware.

 

If you have the time, you might also want to read about Topo 7's slick user-friendly interface and overall ease of use ... NOT. You'll find several threads in the DeLorme forums talking about Topo 7. You shouldn't have to look too far. Of course, if you are a GSAK user, you can skip Topo 7. Oh no ... forget that ... DeLorme is the only major brand of GPSr GSAK doesn't have a direct interface to.

 

They weren't kidding either ... it's orange. No really ... seriously ... it's orange and not lemon colored.

[+dakboy]

First, you might want to read this thread at the DeLorme forums. It will tell you about the latest PN-40 firmware and its inability to acquire WAAS,

Don't forget to check out the threads where people are getting WAAS as well. Oh, and the threads where people are reporting excellent accuracy whether they're getting WAAS or not. Short version: if the unit shows "2 feet to cache location", I look down, and I see the cache at my feet (which happens pretty often), I don't care whether I have WAAS or not because it dropped me on GZ regardless.

There are several fixes that work from time to time or you can return your unit to DeLorme so they can replace the "back plastics" ... and the problem can then repeat itself ... so you can send it back to DeLorme yet again.

At least DeLorme is actively helping those customers who are having these problems.

 

Finally, you might want to read this thread about the two kludges that are required to get more than one geocache in the unit at a time.

DeLorme makes no attempt to hide the fact that official software to load multiple caches at once hasn't been released yet.

If you read to the end of the thread, you'll learn how the involved website was recently hacked exposing us all to malware.

You'll also note that no one is obligated to use those kludges, and that no one has actually reported being infected, and that no one has actually proved that the 3rd party "malware site" actually was hosting malware. We only have Google's say-so that the site had been reported as possibly being linked.

 

If you have the time, you might also want to read about Topo 7's slick user-friendly interface and overall ease of use ... NOT. You'll find several threads in the DeLorme forums talking about Topo 7.

You also aren't required to use T7 for all PN-40 functionality. Not even to cut & download maps - those can be done online at data.delorme.com.

 

DeLorme is in a very bad spot with the Topo USA software. They've got close to a decade (maybe longer) of loyal users who have been trained (at someone's expense) on how to use the software. Now they're seeing a much larger user base. Do they alienate their longstanding customers just to make complainers happy, or do they keep a consistent interface and evolve it to be what you want it to be?

 

Oh no ... forget that ... DeLorme is the only major brand of GPSr GSAK doesn't have a direct interface to.

DeLorme released specifications a long, long time ago (have Garmin or Magellan actively engaged GPSBabel developers and/or contributed their own code to make it work?). No one coded to those specs to make GSAK and other GPSBabel software work with it. They're working more closely with interested parties to make it easier this time around.

 

They weren't kidding either ... it's orange. No really ... seriously ... it's orange and not lemon colored.

If people really are this hung up on the color of their GPS, they seriously need to get a life. I just got a new cell phone this weekend, the only reason I even bothered making a choice on color was to make sure that I couldn't confuse mine with my wife's (identical model).

[+dakboy]

Also, while you're perusing any forums, bear in mind that the majority of the posts are going to be "complaints" because that's why people come to the forum in the first place - they need help. What point is there in posting "hey guys, just want you to know there's absolutely nothing wrong, everything's working fine, haven't had any trouble"? Ever see the episode of The Simpsons where Homer invents the "everything's OK alarm" that beeps every 3 seconds until everything stops being OK?

 

If Garmin hosted & participated in their own forums (which, BTW, they do not), you'd find the exact same sort of thing Tigerz is warning about with the DeLorme forums - for the exact same reason. People would go there with problems and looking for help.

[+Pax42]

Finally, you might want to read this thread about the two kludges that are required to get more than one geocache in the unit at a time. If you read to the end of the thread, you'll learn how the involved website was recently hacked exposing us all to malware.

 

Let me first say thank you to Tigerz for helping provide the "kludges" many of us use to load PQs to our 40s.

 

Unfortunately I must now point out Tigerz incorrect statement. The kludges are NOT required to load PQs onto the 40. PQs can be loaded via the Topo 7 software. Since Topo 7 was around long before the recent PN-40 beta firmware update, you are not able to take advantage of the new geocaching features and icons but the caches are on the unit.

 

The OP should also be aware that Delorme will soon be releasing the new Cache Register widget which will eliminate the "need" for any kludges.

 

Delorme will also be releasing Topo 8 in the near future which might, and I do say MIGHT, answer many of the complaints some have had about Topo 7.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Pax42

[+Pax42]

Also, while you're perusing any forums, bear in mind that the majority of the posts are going to be "complaints" because that's why people come to the forum in the first place - they need help. What point is there in posting "hey guys, just want you to know there's absolutely nothing wrong, everything's working fine, haven't had any trouble"? Ever see the episode of The Simpsons where Homer invents the "everything's OK alarm" that beeps every 3 seconds until everything stops being OK?

 

If Garmin hosted & participated in their own forums (which, BTW, they do not), you'd find the exact same sort of thing Tigerz is warning about with the DeLorme forums - for the exact same reason. People would go there with problems and looking for help.

 

Actually, you can peruse the forums we're currently on and find many complaints about all models and brands of units. Most new consumer products go through aches and pains early in their release due to missed design issues and poor initial manufacturing quality. Neither Delorme or Garmin are immune. You hope that the company you buy from takes care of their customers and their issues in a timely and satisfactory way. I have both a Garmin 60csx and the PN-40 and can tell you that I believe both companies provide very good customer support but I think Delorme goes the extra mile.

[+user13371]

...You also aren't required to use T7 for all PN-40 functionality. Not even to cut & download maps - those can be done online at data.delorme.com.

True, but for SOME specific functions, T7 is the only game in town:

 

- export of routes and other draw objects from computer to the GPS

- import to computer of tracks and waypoints stored on the GPS

- real time tracking on your computer

 

DeLorme has hinted in their own forums that at least export of routes may be available in Cache Register. But a platform independent way to retrieve data (realtime or stored) from the GPS is still missing -- not promised or even hinted at for any near-term revisions.

 

Take it as read that some people don't care about those features - but some people DO and for them the omission limits the PN-40's usefulness.

Edited April 8, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+user13371]

...DeLorme released specifications a long, long time ago (have Garmin or Magellan actively engaged GPSBabel developers and/or contributed their own code to make it work?). No one coded to those specs to make GSAK and other GPSBabel software work with it. They're working more closely with interested parties to make it easier this time around.

LOL.

 

I believe you're VERY mistaken on several points there -- but Robert Lipe might weigh in on that with a more authoritative voice than I possibly could.

 

Oh great Chief Babel Head. where are you?

Edited April 8, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

All that said, while I would never consider my PN-40 for long jaunts I think I’ll be brave and take my PN-40 as my only handheld unit for a two week Alaskan cruise I’m taking next month. On that trip, we intend to explore fairly close to the ports on shorter 5 to 6 hour trips, and maybe include a little geocaching. With the ability to log my cache finds straight from the PN-40, I’m more likely to actually log in, something I tend to not get around to after most of my vacations. If your primary GPS usage will be geocaching, the paperless capability of the little Delorme units is really quite sweet.

 

I'd be happy to carry your bags for you!

[+Team CowboyPapa]

If you have the time, you might also want to read about Topo 7's slick user-friendly interface and overall ease of use ... NOT.

This?

http://delormepn40.wikispaces.com/Create+Your+Own+Trail+Maps

 

And if the OP thinks that those instructions are too difficult to deal with and might tend to another make and model, could somebody post the equivalent for a 60CSx or Oregon in order that he might make an informed selection?

[+Tigerz]

Dakboy ... if I may, let me share some advice my Dad gave me at an earlier age. He called it his "Rule of Holes." The first thing you need to do when you find yourself in a hole is to quit digging.

 

Since I bought my PN-40, I have found about 1000 caches and traveled several thousand miles with it. I test and work on things for a living. I also geocache and travel more than most ... all the time putting the PN-40 through the paces.

 

As for the problems with WAAS, you might read here. Details regarding all the problems with DeLorme's Delbin/interface protocol can be found here. Issues regarding the accuracy of the PN-40, including what needs to be done to validate the readings, can be found here. Something of a side note ... I'm frankly amazed DeLorme has not been called to task by Consumer Protection or the FTC for their unsubstantiated claims. As for the kludges, I'm intimately familiar with them. I'm the author of the GSAK macro.

 

First, you might want to read this thread at the DeLorme forums. It will tell you about the latest PN-40 firmware and its inability to acquire WAAS,

Don't forget to check out the threads where people are getting WAAS as well. Oh, and the threads where people are reporting excellent accuracy whether they're getting WAAS or not. Short version: if the unit shows "2 feet to cache location", I look down, and I see the cache at my feet (which happens pretty often), I don't care whether I have WAAS or not because it dropped me on GZ regardless.

There are several fixes that work from time to time or you can return your unit to DeLorme so they can replace the "back plastics" ... and the problem can then repeat itself ... so you can send it back to DeLorme yet again.

At least DeLorme is actively helping those customers who are having these problems.

 

Finally, you might want to read this thread about the two kludges that are required to get more than one geocache in the unit at a time.

DeLorme makes no attempt to hide the fact that official software to load multiple caches at once hasn't been released yet.

If you read to the end of the thread, you'll learn how the involved website was recently hacked exposing us all to malware.

You'll also note that no one is obligated to use those kludges, and that no one has actually reported being infected, and that no one has actually proved that the 3rd party "malware site" actually was hosting malware. We only have Google's say-so that the site had been reported as possibly being linked.

 

If you have the time, you might also want to read about Topo 7's slick user-friendly interface and overall ease of use ... NOT. You'll find several threads in the DeLorme forums talking about Topo 7.

You also aren't required to use T7 for all PN-40 functionality. Not even to cut & download maps - those can be done online at data.delorme.com.

 

DeLorme is in a very bad spot with the Topo USA software. They've got close to a decade (maybe longer) of loyal users who have been trained (at someone's expense) on how to use the software. Now they're seeing a much larger user base. Do they alienate their longstanding customers just to make complainers happy, or do they keep a consistent interface and evolve it to be what you want it to be?

 

Oh no ... forget that ... DeLorme is the only major brand of GPSr GSAK doesn't have a direct interface to.

DeLorme released specifications a long, long time ago (have Garmin or Magellan actively engaged GPSBabel developers and/or contributed their own code to make it work?). No one coded to those specs to make GSAK and other GPSBabel software work with it. They're working more closely with interested parties to make it easier this time around.

 

They weren't kidding either ... it's orange. No really ... seriously ... it's orange and not lemon colored.

If people really are this hung up on the color of their GPS, they seriously need to get a life. I just got a new cell phone this weekend, the only reason I even bothered making a choice on color was to make sure that I couldn't confuse mine with my wife's (identical model).

[+Rockin Roddy]

oops....sorry

Edited April 8, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+Lake Elmo Kid]

How many caches can be loaded at one time in the PN-40?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Dakboy ... if I may, let me share some advice my Dad gave me at an earlier age. He called it his "Rule of Holes." The first thing you need to do when you find yourself in a hole is to quit digging.

 

Since I bought my PN-40, I have found about 1000 caches and traveled several thousand miles with it. I test and work on things for a living. I also geocache and travel more than most ... all the time putting the PN-40 through the paces.

 

As for the problems with WAAS, you might read here. Details regarding all the problems with DeLorme's Delbin/interface protocol can be found here. Issues regarding the accuracy of the PN-40, including what needs to be done to validate the readings, can be found here. Something of a side note ... I'm frankly amazed DeLorme has not been called to task by Consumer Protection or the FTC for their unsubstantiated claims. As for the kludges, I'm intimately familiar with them. I'm the author of the GSAK macro.

 

 

Some thoughts here:

 

WAAS...get it LOVE IT! Seems not a problem with my and several others as noted in a recent thread I started.

 

Accuracy...LOVE IT! Checked against a benchmark several times and all I can say is, mine's reading pretty true and is VERY accurate (but again, this is evidenced by more than one thread stating how accurate the PN-40 is).

 

The kludges...were these released by DeLorme?? NO??? Well then, how can anyone blame problems arising from the use of these on DeLorme?? Maybe blaming the makers of the "kludges" would make more sense? And, if they were hacked as has been said, who's fault is this as well? Since the send to works soooo good, I am more than happy to use it until the OFFICIAL release is out...and have yet to have a problem!

 

The problems some see could be the result of QC, but I'm not seeing them and I wouldn't report anything untrue here...or misleading! Some call me a fanboy (YEP, I'm the Pres), but I can honestly say that I only report what my experiences have been. Call me a liar if you please, but I would hope you can back your slander up! In short, I'm more than happy. And believe me, if I weren't, EVERYONE would know!

[+twolpert]

How many caches can be loaded at one time in the PN-40?

1000. Caches and waypoints share the same space, so you can have a total of 1000 caches plus waypoints.

 

With the 2.5b3 firmware, you can have up to 15,000 characters of data for each cache. This includes the description, hints (if any), and recent logs. With 2.4 production firmware, you are limited to 800 characters of descriptive information. You are also limited to 800 characters even with 2.5b3 if you load the caches through T7 instead of via the plug-in (or plug-in plus Jam4ar's script).

 

2.5b3 has a large number of caching enhancements. Aside from the increase in cache text, you have much better workflow in the field, as well as the ability to upload field notes to gc.com to help automate the process of logging your finds.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Something of a side note ... I'm frankly amazed DeLorme has not been called to task by Consumer Protection or the FTC for their unsubstantiated claims.

Yes, I certainly agree. So I just checked with Eric Holder, US Attorney General, and he told me that it is on their plate.

They intend to get on it as soon as they are done with this:

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2009/04...-next-week.html

[robertlipe]

Moderator's note Let's review. Subject: "Delorme PN-40".

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Hopefully, I'm in compliance with the forum requirement to stay within the general subject of GPS receiver physical and functional characteristics.

I've certainly tried to be responsive to the guidance and responsible in not mischaracterizing the the attrtibutes of the DeLorme Earthmate GPS PN-40.

If I have not been successful in that endeavor, I offer my apologies.

Again, my intent is to provide the most accurate response to the OP and his request for information regarding the DeLorme Earthmate GPS PN-40.

I feel that the following quote is somewhat vague and ambiguous in its criticism of DeLorme's claims regarding the GPS PN-40 performance. It is my object of this post to evoke some specificity regarding the accuracy, or other, of these claims.

 

Something of a side note ... I'm frankly amazed DeLorme has not been called to task by Consumer Protection or the FTC for their unsubstantiated claims.

 

Is it possible that you could add some substantiation regarding these DeLorme unsubstantiated claims about their Earthmate GPS PN-40?

For example, exactly which claims on the DeLorme website here:

http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtd...28646§ion=10461

Anything specifically unsubstantiated about these taken from the above concerning the features to the GPS and its GPS functionality:

NEW! 3-axis electronic compass with included accelorometer performs when held in any position—while in motion or standing still

NEW! Sensitive barometric altimeter for reliably accurate altitude readings

WAAS-enabled for accuracy within 3 meters

The PN-40 is waterproof to the IEC 529 IPX7 standard

Designed to function in high-humidity environments, including consistent humidity levels over 90%, and in the rain

The PN-40 has been rigorously tested to function in high-vibration conditions such as off-road driving

Operating temperature range for the PN-40 is -20 degrees C to +75 degrees C. The PN-40 should function in extreme cold as well as rapidly-changing temperature environments

 

As a specific example of substantiating the allegation of unsubstantiation, can a link be provided to a PDF of a lab test showing the failure of the GPS PN-40 to be in compliance with IEC 529 IPX7 standard?

 

Any other direct evidence regarding the performance of the DeLorme PN-40 would be appreciated.

[+user13371]

...I'm frankly amazed DeLorme has not been called to task by Consumer Protection or the FTC for their unsubstantiated claims. ...

Okay, I'll bite ... Specifically what problems or "unsubstantiated claims" do you think would call for FTC or other regulatory agency's action?

[+Tigerz]

...I'm frankly amazed DeLorme has not been called to task by Consumer Protection or the FTC for their unsubstantiated claims. ...

Okay, I'll bite ... Specifically what problems or "unsubstantiated claims" do you think would call for FTC or other regulatory agency's action?

Yep, but I won't bite. Read my whole comment and the referenced thread instead of taking it out of context.

 

I'm not here to battle with words. I referenced problems that have been acknowledged repeatedly on DeLorme's own forums.

 

The one thing I regret is not mentioning the problem with the DeLorme plug-in and corrupt cache pages ... you can read about that here.

[+benjamin921]

...I'm frankly amazed DeLorme has not been called to task by Consumer Protection or the FTC for their unsubstantiated claims. ...

Okay, I'll bite ... Specifically what problems or "unsubstantiated claims" do you think would call for FTC or other regulatory agency's action?

Yep, but I won't bite. Read my whole comment and the referenced thread instead of taking it out of context.

 

I'm not here to battle with words. I referenced problems that have been acknowledged repeatedly on DeLorme's own forums.

 

The one thing I regret is not mentioning the problem with the DeLorme plug-in and corrupt cache pages ... you can read about that here.

That thread is about the current BETA and is 44 pages long. Could you point to/quote what you are talking about? Don't forget that it is still in BETA.

[+user13371]

...but I won't bite. Read my whole comment and the referenced thread instead of taking it out of context... I'm not here to battle with words.

Not here to battle with words? Nonsense - you already are.

 

Look, I'm very aware - and I'm one of the loudest complainers about - some of the flaws in the PN-40. I've been taken to task for strong language on that subject. But when you talk about "unsubstantiated claims" and suggesting FTC or other government agency action, well, dem's fighting words.

 

Not to sound too much like a lawyer here, but you'd have to show DeLorme made specific untrue claims for the product, that a significant number of purchasers were harmed buy this, and that the company did not offer any kind of remedy for them.

 

What I see is a relatively new product with bugs and QC problems that affect some but not all users. DeLorme is working on those, and there's always the 30-day money back offer if you find the product unsuitable to your needs.

 

That's quite a bit different - isn't it?

Edited April 10, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

...but I won't bite. Read my whole comment and the referenced thread instead of taking it out of context... I'm not here to battle with words.

Not here to battle with words? Nonsense - you already are.

 

Look, I'm very aware - and I'm one of the loudest complainers about - some of the flaws in the PN-40. I've been taken to task for strong language on that subject. But when you talk about "unsubstantiated claims" and suggesting FTC or other government agency action, well, dem's fighting words.

 

Not to sound too much like a lawyer here, but you'd have to show DeLorme made specific untrue claims for the product, that a significant number of purchasers were harmed buy this, and that the company did not offer any kind of remedy for them.

 

What I see is a relatively new product with bugs and QC problems that affect some but not all users. DeLorme is working on those, and there's always the 30-day money back offer if you find the product unsuitable to your needs.

 

That's quite a bit different - isn't it?

 

Thank-you for this post Lee, right along the lines I was thinking as well.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[aud78]

...but I won't bite. Read my whole comment and the referenced thread instead of taking it out of context... I'm not here to battle with words.

Not here to battle with words? Nonsense - you already are.

 

Look, I'm very aware - and I'm one of the loudest complainers about - some of the flaws in the PN-40. I've been taken to task for strong language on that subject. But when you talk about "unsubstantiated claims" and suggesting FTC or other government agency action, well, dem's fighting words.

 

Not to sound too much like a lawyer here, but you'd have to show DeLorme made specific untrue claims for the product, that a significant number of purchasers were harmed buy this, and that the company did not offer any kind of remedy for them.

 

What I see is a relatively new product with bugs and QC problems that affect some but not all users. DeLorme is working on those, and there's always the 30-day money back offer if you find the product unsuitable to your needs.

 

That's quite a bit different - isn't it?

 

I believe there is only one item that may be worth FTC attention. PN-40 is marketed as WAAS enabled. There seems to be widespread consensus that majority of sold PN-40s are not capable of reasonably maintaining WAAS lock. As WAAS is intended to improve accuracy 3x, effectively unit is 3 times less accurate than marketed. This is measurable and provable. Core function of the GPS is accurately identifying global position. It would find it problematic if manufacturer can easily get away with being 3 times outside of the core specification. Even if current beta firmware or next release would fix it, DeLorme still is guilty for keeping users without advertised feature for a while. This may very well also apply to Garmin, Magellan and others which does not make DeLorme any more or less guilty.

 

Apparently these days less than fair marketing of outdoors GPS units is becoming an industry standard. DeLorme goes an extra mile here. “Serious maps” – I am yet to find less accurate Topos. “High resolution screen” – 220x176. “Blazing fast” - any low-end Nuvi draws detailed map faster on 480x272 than PN-40 on its tiny screen. “Easily exchange tracks” – no, you can’t connect two units to the PC and drag GPX files from one to another (or send them wirelessly while in the woods). It takes proprietary software and significant clicking. And, if you want to see more than one imported track on the screen, you’ll be creating a custom map. If this is easy, what is hard then? And the whole North Pole campaign… 55 days with its appetite for batteries? “Temperatures down to -60F” when spec says PN-40’s low limit is -20C (-4F)? Give me a break…

 

Aud

[+user13371]

...I believe there is only one item that may be worth FTC attention. PN-40 is marketed as WAAS enabled. There seems to be widespread consensus that majority of sold PN-40s are not capable of reasonably maintaining WAAS lock.

Well, I've had mixed luck with WAAS, with both the stock firmware and the beta.

 

And yet - even without WAAS, the PN-40 has been more accurate than any WAAS enabled GPS I've owned. Not always; it's finicky. But it's accurate enough that I've often wondered if it IS receiving and applying WAAS corrections, and the "real" bug is that the satellite page just isn't reporting that correctly.

 

WAAS or not, accuracy of the device is not one of my worries.

[+Rockin Roddy]

...I believe there is only one item that may be worth FTC attention. PN-40 is marketed as WAAS enabled. There seems to be widespread consensus that majority of sold PN-40s are not capable of reasonably maintaining WAAS lock.

Well, I've had mixed luck with WAAS, with both the stock firmware and the beta.

 

And yet - even without WAAS, the PN-40 has been more accurate than any WAAS enabled GPS I've owned. Not always; it's finicky. But it's accurate enough that I've often wondered if it IS receiving and applying WAAS corrections, and the "real" bug is that the satellite page just isn't reporting that correctly.

 

WAAS or not, accuracy of the device is not one of my worries.

 

I've wondered this myself. I get +/-5' on a regular basis, and have seen WAAS several times, but it isn't always...while the accuracy is a norm.

 

I wouldn't doubt there's a QC problem, too much grumblings.

[+user13371]

Apparently these days less than fair marketing of outdoors GPS units is becoming an industry standard.

Well, you have me there. I have some of the same quibbles with the PN40, and yet the marketing folks would defend them.

 

"Serious maps" - I find nothing funny about them, do you?

"High resolution screen" - About 120dpi, really not bad. They didn't say it was BIG.

"Blazing fast" - much faster than the PN20.

"Easily exchange..." – Hey, I'm a Mac user and a PC geek. When a PC package is said to be "easy" I don't expect much anyhow. Believe me, I've seen worse.

"...the whole North Pole thing..." - If they carry enough batteries and appropriate other gear, I don't see a problem with this kind of hype.

 

In any case, I don't think any of those things would be actionable by FTC or other agencies. There are other options and remedies, up to and including a liberal return policy.

Edited April 10, 2009 by lee_rimar

[aud78]

Apparently these days less than fair marketing of outdoors GPS units is becoming an industry standard.

Well, you have me there. I have some of the same quibbles with the PN40, and yet the marketing folks would defend them.

 

"Serious maps" - I find nothing funny about them, do you?

<skip>

 

In any case, I don't think any of those things would be actionable by FTC or other agencies. There are other options and remedies, up to and including a liberal return policy.

 

I only suggested that WAAS stuff may qualify for FTC investigation, nothing else. It is well defined in specs and testable/provable. Everything else is my subjective opinion.

 

Regarding maps: there is a large lake missing at [ 41°13'57.72"N ; 74° 7'37.07"W], huge nonexistent twist on the most famous trail in USA at [N41° 15.7862' W74° 8.9059'], misplaced roads in Upstate New York - just a few examples I noticed during my couple hikes during the two week period I owned the unit. Once I posted my findings, there were lots of replies about similar inaccuracies and general consensus that DeLorme's topo is very inaccurate compared to other providers. So, I find it unfair for them to make a selling point of "Serious maps".

 

Aud

[+OpenTrackRacer]

I have to agree about DeLorme's topo maps. They leave a great deal to be desired.

 

Let's face it, the main drivers for the PN-40 are the USGS quads and imagery.

[+TotemLake]

Apparently these days less than fair marketing of outdoors GPS units is becoming an industry standard.

Well, you have me there. I have some of the same quibbles with the PN40, and yet the marketing folks would defend them.

 

"Serious maps" - I find nothing funny about them, do you?

<skip>

 

In any case, I don't think any of those things would be actionable by FTC or other agencies. There are other options and remedies, up to and including a liberal return policy.

 

I only suggested that WAAS stuff may qualify for FTC investigation, nothing else. It is well defined in specs and testable/provable. Everything else is my subjective opinion.

Regarding maps: there is a large lake missing at [ 41°13'57.72"N ; 74° 7'37.07"W], huge nonexistent twist on the most famous trail in USA at [N41° 15.7862' W74° 8.9059'], misplaced roads in Upstate New York - just a few examples I noticed during my couple hikes during the two week period I owned the unit. Once I posted my findings, there were lots of replies about similar inaccuracies and general consensus that DeLorme's topo is very inaccurate compared to other providers. So, I find it unfair for them to make a selling point of "Serious maps".

 

Aud

In which case the same case can be made for the Garmin Oregon. Same chipset same WAAS problems, more erratic tracking before the fixes started coming in shortly after DeLorme announced they were almost ready to release a beta FW fix. I'm not seeing any noise about this. Why is that?

Edited April 11, 2009 by TotemLake

[+Scout126]

I just got the PN-40, and am very happy with it. I was a content PN-20 user, and dealt with all it's issues. But now I'm amazed at the much fast acquisition of satellites in the PN-40. I did the comparison (like on youtube), and I found my PN-40 to be alot faster getting satellites than the one they showed... but the PN-20 was about the same.

 

Plus it's orange!

 

So far it seems more accurate than the PN-20, and much faster moving through maps.

 

I'm happy I moved up.

[aud78]

Apparently these days less than fair marketing of outdoors GPS units is becoming an industry standard.

Well, you have me there. I have some of the same quibbles with the PN40, and yet the marketing folks would defend them.

 

"Serious maps" - I find nothing funny about them, do you?

<skip>

 

In any case, I don't think any of those things would be actionable by FTC or other agencies. There are other options and remedies, up to and including a liberal return policy.

 

I only suggested that WAAS stuff may qualify for FTC investigation, nothing else. It is well defined in specs and testable/provable. Everything else is my subjective opinion.

Regarding maps: there is a large lake missing at [ 41°13'57.72"N ; 74° 7'37.07"W], huge nonexistent twist on the most famous trail in USA at [N41° 15.7862' W74° 8.9059'], misplaced roads in Upstate New York - just a few examples I noticed during my couple hikes during the two week period I owned the unit. Once I posted my findings, there were lots of replies about similar inaccuracies and general consensus that DeLorme's topo is very inaccurate compared to other providers. So, I find it unfair for them to make a selling point of "Serious maps".

 

Aud

In which case the same case can be made for the Garmin Oregon. Same chipset same WAAS problems, more erratic tracking before the fixes started coming in shortly after DeLorme announced they were almost ready to release a beta FW fix. I'm not seeing any noise about this. Why is that?

 

Couldn't agree more - any manufacturer who sold WAAS incapable GPS unit with "WAAS" label on the box must recall and replace all units immediately. And I also wonder, if that's really fault of the chip and not the firmware, why don't we hear the noise about Garmin Oregon? Very strange.

 

Aud

[+Maingray]

I have seen plenty of noise about it in the OR threads, here and on the wikispaces forum... just not as rabid I guess. Garmin is currently moving through a big Beta cycle with the OR as well and the current release has slightly bigger fish to fry than WAAS. We're getting updates every fortnight or so, so it's a bit of a moving target. WAAS, as with the PN-40, seems to moved in the right direction though with developer work.I get it pretty consistently on my unit.

 

I gotta admit (current angst notwithstanding in this thread and point taken about product description) that I don't really need WAAS to find a cache... getting to within 10s of feet of the cache and using my EYES seems to be just the ticket

[+TotemLake]

I have seen plenty of noise about it in the OR threads, here and on the wikispaces forum... just not as rabid I guess. Garmin is currently moving through a big Beta cycle with the OR as well and the current release has slightly bigger fish to fry than WAAS. We're getting updates every fortnight or so, so it's a bit of a moving target. WAAS, as with the PN-40, seems to moved in the right direction though with developer work.I get it pretty consistently on my unit.

 

I gotta admit (current angst notwithstanding in this thread and point taken about product description) that I don't really need WAAS to find a cache... getting to within 10s of feet of the cache and using my EYES seems to be just the ticket

I still have to wonder why that is. It's not like the PN-40 is inadequate at its job. Just like the Colorado and the Oregon, it does have it's share of issues, but these are being met with attempts to fix and make good. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

 

Frankly, the issues I'm seeing written here and on the DeLorme forum are not manifest in my unit. I'm very pleased with the performance and I hike in all manner of conditions.

 

I was told a few years back, a company that can solve a problem smoothly and with little effort is a company that has had to deal with a lot of customer issues and have developed a procedure how to handle it. The scarey part is they had to develop the procedure because of all the problems.

 

DeLorme is learning how, but you can't say they haven't stepped up to the plate to own the issues.

Edited April 11, 2009 by TotemLake

[+Searching_ut]

 

All that said, while I would never consider my PN-40 for long jaunts I think I’ll be brave and take my PN-40 as my only handheld unit for a two week Alaskan cruise I’m taking next month. On that trip, we intend to explore fairly close to the ports on shorter 5 to 6 hour trips, and maybe include a little geocaching. With the ability to log my cache finds straight from the PN-40, I’m more likely to actually log in, something I tend to not get around to after most of my vacations. If your primary GPS usage will be geocaching, the paperless capability of the little Delorme units is really quite sweet.

 

I'd be happy to carry your bags for you!

 

Hmmm, a Sherpa of sorts is probably in order here because there are so many things to take:

 

Formal clothing, semi formal, outdoor stuff for cold and damp. Must hang out around the indoor pool and hot tub so I need a swimsuit, so much good food I’ll have to hit the gym thus I’ll need gym clothing. Then there is the two DSLR bodies, 5 or 6 lenses, flash unit, chargers, monopod, netbook computer, DVD burner. Finally, I’ll need to fit in the all important GPS unit, which will require batteries, a charger etc. Is there going to be any room to fit in some swag? With all that junk to carry I won‘t really have room for more than one gps, which for this trip will be the delorme unit. Even if the PN-40 quits on me completely, I suppose the bright international orange color will come in handy as a signal to the search and rescue guys. (I'll be naughty here and speculate Delorme selected the color as compensation for the reliability issues with the the device.

 

Speaking of WAAS, while I do manage to get a WAAS lock with my PN-40 here in Utah if out in flat open terrain, I’m wondering what if any success I might have as I head north.

 

By the way, for those getting all wound up by the reliability/color swipe, it's meant as humor. PN-40 owners really need to lighten up a little. Spring is on the way, and serious outdoor adventure needs to be the focus.......

[aud78]

I have seen plenty of noise about it in the OR threads, here and on the wikispaces forum... just not as rabid I guess. Garmin is currently moving through a big Beta cycle with the OR as well and the current release has slightly bigger fish to fry than WAAS. We're getting updates every fortnight or so, so it's a bit of a moving target. WAAS, as with the PN-40, seems to moved in the right direction though with developer work.I get it pretty consistently on my unit.

 

I gotta admit (current angst notwithstanding in this thread and point taken about product description) that I don't really need WAAS to find a cache... getting to within 10s of feet of the cache and using my EYES seems to be just the ticket

 

The "noise" question intrigued me and I did my little research

 

Aud

[+TotemLake]

I have seen plenty of noise about it in the OR threads, here and on the wikispaces forum... just not as rabid I guess. Garmin is currently moving through a big Beta cycle with the OR as well and the current release has slightly bigger fish to fry than WAAS. We're getting updates every fortnight or so, so it's a bit of a moving target. WAAS, as with the PN-40, seems to moved in the right direction though with developer work.I get it pretty consistently on my unit.

 

I gotta admit (current angst notwithstanding in this thread and point taken about product description) that I don't really need WAAS to find a cache... getting to within 10s of feet of the cache and using my EYES seems to be just the ticket

 

The "noise" question intrigued me and I did my little research

 

Aud

 

Unfortunately, you'll be hard pressed to make those numbers mean too much. I did that kind of search before and it takes a month of Sunday's to filter out the fluff and quoted posts.

 

-=-=added quote to help keep context at the beginning of this page=-=-

Edited April 12, 2009 by TotemLake