A Wee Bit of Irritation and Dismay at Cachers Who Ask That

[+sbell111]

[<snip>

 

Sure we would. Vinny made his bones generating this kind of thread.

 

Huh? Anyone who reads Vinny's threads knows that 99.99% of them are completely unserious and in fun. This is not at all a typical Vinny thread.

 

I initially mistook the OP for one of Vinny's typical unserious threads. The comically blown-out-of-proportion 'outrage' threw me in an 'ammo cans should be banned' kind of way.

Edited March 24, 2009 by sbell111

[+Castle Mischief]

I am curious Vinny. How many of family that in your home are Geocachers and do all of them have Premium Memberships?

I remain totally amazed and speechless that you and one or two other posters in this thread keep trying to introduce this red herring. Please remember that the issue is not that any of us have a problem with non-paying regular members. Rather, our issue is with a small percentage of non-paying regular members who exhbit craven depraved morals and ethics and ask or demand that PMO caches be converted to regular (i.e. non-PMO status.)

 

However, for the fun of it, I am gonna answer your question, because the answer is so gonna shame you so badly that you are gonna beg the CIA to place you in Gitmo and waterboard you and electro-torture you for six months nonstop in a filthy cold wet cell. Here goes:

 

The only humans in our family (I am ignoring here, for the moment, dogs, cats, chickens turkeys, ducks, geese, peacocks, peahens, guinea fowl and cestodes) are Sue and myself. We maintain, and have maintained for years, two full-time Premium member accounts, namely, our main Vinny & Sue Team account and Sue's ancillary Sue-Cat account. We also maintain two other Groundspeak accounts for the benefit of two of my girlfriends in other parts of the country who are co-placers (co-hiders) with me of some of my extreme Psycho caches but who are not active enuf in the geocaching world (in other words, they go geocaching only with me when I am visiting them) to bother to have their own accounts at this time, and we sometimes activate those largely-dormant accounts by converting them periodically to Premium member status for periods of from 3 to 6 months at a time, as needed by me and my friends in order to allow them to perform cache maintenance on those distant caches.

 

Have fun in your cell in Gitmo!

 

Bye now!

 

P.S. I also operate 414 or 415 sock puppet accounts, half of them Premium accounts, all of which are active on the forum, but that is not relevant to this current discussion.

 

You had me at "cestodes".

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I am curious Vinny. How many of family that in your home are Geocachers and do all of them have Premium Memberships?

I remain totally amazed and speechless that you and one or two other posters in this thread keep trying to introduce this red herring. Please remember that the issue is not that any of us have a problem with non-paying regular members. Rather, our issue is with a small percentage of non-paying regular members who exhbit craven depraved morals and ethics and ask or demand that PMO caches be converted to regular (i.e. non-PMO status.)

 

However, for the fun of it, I am gonna answer your question, because the answer is so gonna shame you so badly that you are gonna beg the CIA to place you in Gitmo and waterboard you and electro-torture you for six months nonstop in a filthy cold wet cell. Here goes:

 

The only humans in our family (I am ignoring here, for the moment, dogs, cats, chickens turkeys, ducks, geese, peacocks, peahens, guinea fowl and cestodes) are Sue and myself. We maintain, and have maintained for years, two full-time Premium member accounts, namely, our main Vinny & Sue Team account and Sue's ancillary Sue-Cat account. We also maintain two other Groundspeak accounts for the benefit of two of my girlfriends in other parts of the country who are co-placers (co-hiders) with me of some of my extreme Psycho caches but who are not active enuf in the geocaching world (in other words, they go geocaching only with me when I am visiting them) to bother to have their own accounts at this time, and we sometimes activate those largely-dormant accounts by converting them periodically to Premium member status for periods of from 3 to 6 months at a time, as needed by me and my friends in order to allow them to perform cache maintenance on those distant caches.

 

Have fun in your cell in Gitmo!

 

Bye now!

 

P.S. I also operate 414 or 415 sock puppet accounts, half of them Premium accounts, all of which are active on the forum, but that is not relevant to this current discussion.

 

You had me at "cestodes".

There are at least two cestodes in our family, both of them pets, and both reside in my GI tract, along with whipworms and a few other nematodes. As someone who eats a largely-raw diet which includes raw animal food, and as one who lectures regularly in that field, I consider these commensals to be my friends and my helpers, and I thank them every day for helping me to digest food and to maintain my GI tract in a state of optimal balance.

 

.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

[<snip>

 

Sure we would. Vinny made his bones generating this kind of thread.

 

Huh? Anyone who reads Vinny's threads knows that 99.99% of them are completely unserious and in fun. This is not at all a typical Vinny thread.

 

Yes, most of my threads are for fun, and even many of my posts to serious threads are somewhat in fun, to help lighten the mood when I feel that people are getting too morose, morbid and moribund, for I tend not to take life very seriously. However, as in the current case, I sometimes do start serious threads.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I'm sure it seems that way until you're the one receiving a mountain of emails and PMs.

 

Reading an email asking for exception to a rule that I've put in place would take time out of my day (just like that phone call). Responding to said email would take more time out of my day. I put the rule in place for a reason. Asking for exception based on your personal gratification is rude when it would take away my personal time. Like the phone call, it's an interruption that was unwarranted.

 

Personality has nothing to do with being rude. Your actions of conduct determine whether you're being rude. The assumption is not baseless when it is a reaction to a poor display of behavior. It's also not an assumption. There are no rules against parking your shopping cart cross-wise in the middle of the store aisle, but it's still rude.

 

I'm not at all against people emailing with questions about caches. I do email regularly myself and receive emails regularly myself. I respond to these and enjoy doing so because my caches (so far) are not PMO. I do think that this particular scenario is rather specific though and that asking someone to change their cache for my personal entertainment is rude. It doesn't serve to improve the cache. It would only serve my self-entitlement and encourage it in others. I don't condone that kind of behavior.

 

edit4toospel

If you are getting a mountain of emails/pm's I am sure there is a block/ignore button if you are being bothered on a constant basis. You say it takes more time out of your day to respond. Well then don't respond. Nothing dicates you that you must reply to all emails/pm's.

 

When I mentioned personality, I was referring to a sense of entitlement. You can not determin this from someone asking a simple question if you could make a PM only cache available for non-PM's.

 

Isn't Geochacing for someones personal entertainment? I geocache, not for others entertainment, but my own. So why judge someone as being rude for thinking about a cache that they would enjoy? There is no harm in asking to make it public.

Why does a question have to serve to improve the cache? I did not realize there was this rule in place. Reacting like this only deters people from asking questions in the future in fear that the could be labeld as rude.

 

This whole thread is not serving the Goecaching community well. We are here to enjoy the sport/hobby/game. Arguing about something as petty as this can really turn people off in ever trying it.

Ewwww... I am about to puke... a couple of your posts sent lately to this thread have provoked the same reaction in me...

 

I smell the stink of a sense of self-entitlement, and I am allergic to that stench.

 

Let me take you back to my original post in this thread, and ask you:

 

Would you contact your electrical utility company and ask them to start providing all your electric power for free?

 

Would you contact your propane/natural gas supply company and ask them to provide all your heating/cooking/hot water gas for free?

 

Would you contact your cable TV company and ask them to provide premium highest-level cable TV services to your home for free?

 

Would you contact your local gasoline station and ask them to provide you with free gasoline from now on?

 

Would you contact your ISP and ask them to provide you with high-speed DSL Internet access for free?

 

Would you contact your doctors and dentists and ask them to provide you with totally free services from now on?

 

Would you contact your local supermarket and ask them to provide you with free groceries from now on?

 

And, I have just noted... interesting... you are NOT a Premium Member yourself, and thus, your statements are all suspect from that point of view as well, as a casual obsrdver might suspect that your position is merely one that is self-serving.

 

Good luck with your baggage.

Your examples have no relevance to Geocaching since they do not provide an option of a lower or different service in return for no fee.

 

You come across as a very judgemental person based soley on ones status within the Goecaching community and that reeks of snobism (not sure if that is even a word...lol). I base this on your position that you refer to my statements as suspect since I am one of the many non-PM's.

And you even go as far as saying my position on the matter is self serving. Again, making a baseless judgement.

For the record. I am a fairly new Geocacher and will eventually become a PM, but I decided at this time it is not needed.

Relevant sections above have been rendered in bold font.

 

Bingo! I am not a nice person. I am an elitist. I am a snob. I am judgmental at times over the behavior of idiots who should know better than to behave like idiots. I am not here on earth to win any popularity contests. In fact, as I have said before, I would feel that I was failing at living my life well if I did not receive a certain amount of criticism and sniping from certain (despicable and loathsome) corners.

You know, the first step towards changing is understanding your faults. On the other hand, people who know that they act like jerks with no desire to change do not impress me with their jerkitude.

Briefly, I did not disclose those traits as faults, but rather, in my case, as virtues. I am what I am, and they are virtues, make no mistake about it.

 

However, by your statements, particularly your aversion to being seen as "judgmental" and your compulsive need to be "nice", you have revealed that you are not only a knee-jerk liberal (I so love getting to feel superior and smug), but a subscriber to New Age pop psychology and the tenets of New Age "political correctness" as well. Personally, I am none of those things, and I subscribe to none of those philosophies/tenets. While many of my political and social views are decidedly very liberal or even downright libertarian, I am not a subscriber to New Age beliefs, and particularly not a subscriber to the fuzzy-wuzzy tenets of New Age pop psychology and political correctness, and, in fact, I am as allergic to both of those genres as I am to people who wallow in a sense of self-entitlement (which, by the way, was what this thread was all about.) I feel that such persons (along with anyone who disagrees with me in this thread) should be remanded to a prison such as Gitmo and waterboarded continually until they learn the virtues of grace, gratitude and appreciation.

 

End of discussion. I will not revisit these matters in this thread.

 

.

[+sbell111]

I'm sure it seems that way until you're the one receiving a mountain of emails and PMs.

 

Reading an email asking for exception to a rule that I've put in place would take time out of my day (just like that phone call). Responding to said email would take more time out of my day. I put the rule in place for a reason. Asking for exception based on your personal gratification is rude when it would take away my personal time. Like the phone call, it's an interruption that was unwarranted.

 

Personality has nothing to do with being rude. Your actions of conduct determine whether you're being rude. The assumption is not baseless when it is a reaction to a poor display of behavior. It's also not an assumption. There are no rules against parking your shopping cart cross-wise in the middle of the store aisle, but it's still rude.

 

I'm not at all against people emailing with questions about caches. I do email regularly myself and receive emails regularly myself. I respond to these and enjoy doing so because my caches (so far) are not PMO. I do think that this particular scenario is rather specific though and that asking someone to change their cache for my personal entertainment is rude. It doesn't serve to improve the cache. It would only serve my self-entitlement and encourage it in others. I don't condone that kind of behavior.

 

edit4toospel

If you are getting a mountain of emails/pm's I am sure there is a block/ignore button if you are being bothered on a constant basis. You say it takes more time out of your day to respond. Well then don't respond. Nothing dicates you that you must reply to all emails/pm's.

 

When I mentioned personality, I was referring to a sense of entitlement. You can not determin this from someone asking a simple question if you could make a PM only cache available for non-PM's.

 

Isn't Geochacing for someones personal entertainment? I geocache, not for others entertainment, but my own. So why judge someone as being rude for thinking about a cache that they would enjoy? There is no harm in asking to make it public.

Why does a question have to serve to improve the cache? I did not realize there was this rule in place. Reacting like this only deters people from asking questions in the future in fear that the could be labeld as rude.

 

This whole thread is not serving the Goecaching community well. We are here to enjoy the sport/hobby/game. Arguing about something as petty as this can really turn people off in ever trying it.

Ewwww... I am about to puke... a couple of your posts sent lately to this thread have provoked the same reaction in me...

 

I smell the stink of a sense of self-entitlement, and I am allergic to that stench.

 

Let me take you back to my original post in this thread, and ask you:

 

Would you contact your electrical utility company and ask them to start providing all your electric power for free?

 

Would you contact your propane/natural gas supply company and ask them to provide all your heating/cooking/hot water gas for free?

 

Would you contact your cable TV company and ask them to provide premium highest-level cable TV services to your home for free?

 

Would you contact your local gasoline station and ask them to provide you with free gasoline from now on?

 

Would you contact your ISP and ask them to provide you with high-speed DSL Internet access for free?

 

Would you contact your doctors and dentists and ask them to provide you with totally free services from now on?

 

Would you contact your local supermarket and ask them to provide you with free groceries from now on?

 

And, I have just noted... interesting... you are NOT a Premium Member yourself, and thus, your statements are all suspect from that point of view as well, as a casual obsrdver might suspect that your position is merely one that is self-serving.

 

Good luck with your baggage.

Your examples have no relevance to Geocaching since they do not provide an option of a lower or different service in return for no fee.

 

You come across as a very judgemental person based soley on ones status within the Goecaching community and that reeks of snobism (not sure if that is even a word...lol). I base this on your position that you refer to my statements as suspect since I am one of the many non-PM's.

And you even go as far as saying my position on the matter is self serving. Again, making a baseless judgement.

For the record. I am a fairly new Geocacher and will eventually become a PM, but I decided at this time it is not needed.

Relevant sections above have been rendered in bold font.

 

Bingo! I am not a nice person. I am an elitist. I am a snob. I am judgmental at times over the behavior of idiots who should know better than to behave like idiots. I am not here on earth to win any popularity contests. In fact, as I have said before, I would feel that I was failing at living my life well if I did not receive a certain amount of criticism and sniping from certain (despicable and loathsome) corners

You know, the first step towards changing is understanding your faults. On the other hand, people who know that they act like jerks with no desire to change do not impress me with their jerkitude.

Briefly, I did not disclose those traits as faults, but rather, in my case, as virtues. I am what I am, and they are virtues, make no mistake about it.

 

However, by your statements, particularly your aversion to being seen as "judgmental" and your compulsive need to be "nice", you have revealed that you are not only a knee-jerk liberal (I so love getting to feel superior and smug), but a subscriber to New Age pop psychology and the tenets of New Age "political correctness" as well. Personally, I am none of those things, and I subscribe to none of those philosophies/tenets. While many of my political and social views are decidedly very liberal or even downright libertarian, I am not a subscriber to New Age beliefs, and particularly not a subscriber to the fuzzy-wuzzy tenets of New Age pop psychology and political correctness, and, in fact, I am as allergic to both of those genres as I am to people who wallow in a sense of self-entitlement (which, by the way, was what this thread was all about.) I feel that such persons (along with anyone who disagrees with me in this thread) should be remanded to a prison such as Gitmo and waterboarded continually until they learn the virtues of grace, gratitude and appreciation.

 

End of discussion. I will not revisit these matters in this thread.

I can see why you gave up clinical psychology. You're not very good at reading people. Beyond that, I can only thank you for showing how apt my last post was.

 

BTW, you forgot to call me a Socialist.

Edited March 24, 2009 by sbell111

[+D-Roc]

 

How exactly? Just curious as to how changing the cache listing from PMO would improve the cache itself. I'm going to take a wild stab and say that if the CO believed it would improve the cache he would have probably done so already.

 

I did not say it would improve the cache. I was responding to the claim that it would be self serving.

 

 

Another excellent question and this has actually been asked many, many times in the past. A quick search should bring up quite a few angst-ridden threads about the beneifts and drawbacks of PMOCs. Personally, I haven't had the need to use it yet, but it was a tremendously useful tool in saving local caches a couple years back when some local muggles opened up a free account and began destroying caches for fun. Several caches were fixed/moved/replaced and made PMO. Within days, people began complaining and asking for them to be changed despite the fact that it had cost the owners good time and money to replace them. If those caches had been made non-PM it is quite likely the cache destroyers would have simply wrecked the new ones, too. Instead, the caches remain for the community to find and enjoy. You might have to contribute to the site to gain access, but you at least have that choice.

 

I understand this completely and it makes perfect sense, but it still does not justify the level of anger it generated from Vinny.

[+D-Roc]

I am curious Vinny. How many of family that in your home are Geocachers and do all of them have Premium Memberships?

I remain totally amazed and speechless that you and one or two other posters in this thread keep trying to introduce this red herring.......etc

 

I am glad that you both have Prem. Memberships. Thank you for answering my question, but it did not shame me at all.

 

I am not sure how anyone can go through life being this miserable and childish and be proud of it. I have always been a straight shooter and tell people what I think and express my opinion, but I refuse to do it by sacrificing respect of other people in the process. I wish you well and that you one day find a way to come to terms with your issues.

Edited March 25, 2009 by D-Roc

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Still trying to clarify a bit, but I think I'm understand better your stance.

 

How exactly? Just curious as to how changing the cache listing from PMO would improve the cache itself. I'm going to take a wild stab and say that if the CO believed it would improve the cache he would have probably done so already.

 

I did not say it would improve the cache. I was responding to the claim that it would be self serving.

Well who would it serve and how then? You mentioned all the non-pm members previously, but our community is made up of both PM and non-PM members. So we're really only talking about serving a select part of our community. Within that select part of our community we're really only talking about serving a smaller select part made up of a few people who feel they should have a service they haven't paid for. When you change a cache (in any way) that can be enjoyed by anyone (everyone has the choice to be a PM) to serve the whims of a very small and select minority then that I believe defines the notion of the change request being self-serving. It's not for the good of the community, it's for the want of an individual or a group of individuals who believe they're entitled to a service they haven't paid to attain. We might just have to agree to disagree on this one, but I have enjoyed hearing your perspective.

 

 

 

Another excellent question ...

 

I understand this completely and it makes perfect sense, but it still does not justify the level of anger it generated from Vinny.

 

Well Vinny does tend to go overboard with enthusiasm for an idea (understatement of the year? ), but when you read between the lines to see where he's leading us, there are often some great debates to be shared, ideas to be expressed and heaven forbid maybe we might even learn something along the twisted trail he takes us down.

[+D-Roc]

Well who would it serve and how then? You mentioned all the non-pm members previously, but our community is made up of both PM and non-PM members. So we're really only talking about serving a select part of our community. Within that select part of our community we're really only talking about serving a smaller select part made up of a few people who feel they should have a service they haven't paid for. When you change a cache (in any way) that can be enjoyed by anyone (everyone has the choice to be a PM) to serve the whims of a very small and select minority then that I believe defines the notion of the change request being self-serving. It's not for the good of the community, it's for the want of an individual or a group of individuals who believe they're entitled to a service they haven't paid to attain. We might just have to agree to disagree on this one, but I have enjoyed hearing your perspective.

 

Without actually knowing the numbers of PM's vs. non-PM's, I guessed (logically speaking) that the non-PM's out number the PM's. Are you saying that this is not the case and it is the opposite? If that is so, I understand it better when you refer to non-PM cachers who ask the owner to make it available to everyone as having a attitude of self and in a sense can see why you would see it as self serving. However, I still say that asking to open a cache to everyone is not self serving since it then makes it to everyone in the caching community, but again if the ratio of PM's vs. non-PM's is different than I suspected, I see how you can view it your way.

[+Sioneva]

Well who would it serve and how then? You mentioned all the non-pm members previously, but our community is made up of both PM and non-PM members. So we're really only talking about serving a select part of our community. Within that select part of our community we're really only talking about serving a smaller select part made up of a few people who feel they should have a service they haven't paid for. When you change a cache (in any way) that can be enjoyed by anyone (everyone has the choice to be a PM) to serve the whims of a very small and select minority then that I believe defines the notion of the change request being self-serving. It's not for the good of the community, it's for the want of an individual or a group of individuals who believe they're entitled to a service they haven't paid to attain. We might just have to agree to disagree on this one, but I have enjoyed hearing your perspective.

 

Without actually knowing the numbers of PM's vs. non-PM's, I guessed (logically speaking) that the non-PM's out number the PM's. Are you saying that this is not the case and it is the opposite? If that is so, I understand it better when you refer to non-PM cachers who ask the owner to make it available to everyone as having a attitude of self and in a sense can see why you would see it as self serving. However, I still say that asking to open a cache to everyone is not self serving since it then makes it to everyone in the caching community, but again if the ratio of PM's vs. non-PM's is different than I suspected, I see how you can view it your way.

 

I think you missed the point that the previous poster was trying to make. I highlighted the appropriate section above to try to help... It's not a question of PMs vs Non-PMs, it's a question of PMs vs 'non-PMs who think that they should be entitled to all the privileges of PMs without paying for them'. I'd hope that the number of PMs is higher than the number of 'non-PMs who think that they should be entitled to all the privileges of PMs without paying for them'.

 

Hope this helps clarify things.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Without actually knowing the numbers of PM's vs. non-PM's, I guessed (logically speaking) that the non-PM's out number the PM's. Are you saying that this is not the case and it is the opposite? If that is so, I understand it better when you refer to non-PM cachers who ask the owner to make it available to everyone as having a attitude of self and in a sense can see why you would see it as self serving. However, I still say that asking to open a cache to everyone is not self serving since it then makes it to everyone in the caching community, but again if the ratio of PM's vs. non-PM's is different than I suspected, I see how you can view it your way.

 

I think your guess is accurate in that non-PMs outnumber PMs (they do in my house anyway - lol), but still think the ratio is irrelevant. My view isn't about how many are enriched though. I'm more of a quality over quantity guy in pretty much all aspects of life.

 

More specific to this instance though we're talking about cachers asking a cache owner to change their cache even though it adheres to all the guidelines required of it for listing it at geocaching.com. The how it's to be changed doesn't matter to me. It's the asking that bothers me. The CO creates, pays for (in time at least if not money as well) and maintains their cache (their personal property by the way) and what they do with it is up to them. If they choose to share it with us at geocaching.com then we should be thankful. What we shouldn't do is tell them how we think they should be sharing it with us. It's enough that they're willing to share at all and to request a change to how they share it seems very rude.

[Bluehook]

Folks, I have, over the past few days, witnessed something that I have seen on the forums a few times in the past, and the latest occurrence really kinda made my skin crawl, it was so creepy, in terms of the whininess and sense of self-entitlement displayed by the requesters. Here goes with a brief rendering of my tale, and I wonder how many other folks get a creepy feeling from it:

 

My Psycho Urban Cache #13 - Impossible! Give Up Now! was recently chosen for inclusion in a documentary show on extreme geocaching for a major TV network. The producers wished to film a team tackling the cache (it is usually anywhere from a nine hour job to a 4 day job), and so I started a thread about the whole matter in the Mid-Atlantic section of the forum, in order to find a team willing and able to tackle the cache while being filmed. So far, so good, and, in short order, a team that had already been planning on tackling the cache expressed willingness to do it, and that team is currently coalescing for the effort. No problems there; it all went easy. However....

 

However, as the forum thread progressed, something else happened that kinda amazed me and some of the other participants in the thread. Namely, three or four geocachers, each of them regular, non-paying members, sent posts to the thread, asking/stating things such as (examples follow):

 

Is there a chance that the Psycho Urban caches could be opened up for public viewing? At the moment the #13 cache, and a bunch of the others too, are members only listing.

cool.gif

Agreed, us lowly non-members cannot view these caches.

 

If its only $30 bux then you can buy me a Gift Membership wink.gif J/K - I really dont want one. Purpose of my post was to indicate that if you want to get interest in the cache and make the documentary a success you may want to open it up to all members. Are you looking to promote the sport of geocaching or just premium membership sales?

 

Frankly, I was floored and shocked by these responses, and my first reaction was to contact the posters privately to see if Sioneva or flask (both of them known agents provocateur) had perhaps paid them $50 to send those posts just to irritate me, but no, each of the posters really meant what they posted, and they believed that they were "right".

 

Personally, I am amazed that these folks are asking/suggesting that the listing be removed from Premium member-only status so that they might view the listing page free of charge. The price of a monthly membership at Groundspeak is less than the price of mug of cheap beer, and about the price of one gallon of gasoline, for God's sake!

 

And, from another perspective, we can look at the whole matter in any of the two ways, as well:

• let's consider how much it costs the owners of Groundspeak to run the site, in terms of salaries, bandwidth, servers, programmers, etc.
  
• the Otter Box container and associated cache-site hardware used for PUC #13 cost me about $28.
  
• the FTF and 2TF prizes for PUC #13 cost me over $270, and the FTF prize alone included $160 in cash.
  
• let us consider the fact that each of my two chartered helicopter flights to emplace the cache cost me about $160 apiece (the actual list price was somewhat higher, but I was given a sizeable discount because I am a pilot, and the owner of the helicopter charter facility was also a geocacher.)
  
• My subsequent maintenance visits also each cost me about $160 apiece for helicopter charter.
  
• For me to be able to emplace the cache, the helicopter needed to hover well below the "dead mans curve" just feet above the top of the 80 foot tall pier, and just 90 feet above a cold raging river. In other words, the procedure was rather dangerous, and only about one out of 100 helicopter pilots will even consider tackling the job, due to the dangers involved. I have taken these sizeable risks several times in order to emplace the cache and to do maintenance visits.
  
• the switchable electromagnet-on-a-cable device that I built in my lab shop in order to allow retrieval and replacement of the cache from the air cost (including the numerous D-cell alkaline batteries) over $130.
  

It is obvious that I invested a lot of time and money and effort to place the cache in question. It is also obvious that it costs Groundspeak a lot of money to run this listing website.

 

And yet.... some non-paying members, who are already enjoying a tremendous number of benefits at the site totally for free, have the gall to ask me to drop the PMO status of this cache, and of my other Psycho caches, just so that they can view the cache listing pages FOR FREE????

 

I am shocked, irritated and dismayed. In fact, since reading those requests, I have been continually looking to the western horizon for some sign of the approach of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, because if humanity has really degenerated to this point, then this must indeed be the beginning of the End of Days.

 

So, then, to be fair, I decided that maybe these folks were right, and maybe I was wrong. So, I proceeded to contact the following businesses and ask them if they would start giving me their products and services entirely for free, rather than asking me to pay for their products and services:

• my Internet service provider, to which I pay $40 per month for DSL service. They said no.
  
• my phone company, to which I pay about $40 per month. Amazingly, they said no.
  
• my local gas station, where I fuel my car once per week. Amazingly, they said no.
  
• my favorite Vietnamese restaurant; I asked if they would give me all my favorite dishes for free from now on. Amazingly, they said no.
  
• my propane gas supply company, from which I purchase over $1,000 of gas per year for heating purposes. Amazingly, they said no.
  
• My electric company. Amazingly, they said no.
  
• I then contacted my old graduate school, and asked them if I could return in order to pursue a PhD degree for free; normal cost would be about $90,000 over five years. Amazingly, they said no.
  
• I then contacted each of the major US airlines, and explained that I often fly around the USA on research field trips, and I asked them if they would, from now on, give me free flights to any destinations of my choice. Amazingly, they said no.
  
• my car is getting a bit old, and has become a bit of an oil burner now that it has over 140,000 miles on it, and so I visited each of 11 different car dealers in my area, asking each of them if they would give me a new car for free. Amazingly, they said no.
  

...sigh....!

 

I guess the biggest thing that I wonder is what causes people to display such egregious levels of sense of self-entitlement. Or, are they perhaps a different species than I? Why do I find their behavior so foreign and so distasteful? Do these people TOTALLY lack gratitude and appreciation? In fact, this kind of behavior is INFANTILE.

 

.

 

waaaah!

 

[+Star*Hopper]

"... It's not a question of PMs vs Non-PMs, it's a question of PMs vs 'non-PMs who think that they should be entitled to all the privileges of PMs without paying for them'. ..."

 

Nice try, babybubba....but I'm not sure I can get completely in bed with even that.

When you say, "...all the privileges", would that include the privilege of letting non-PMs make their caches PMO? (Presuming they can't already -- honestly, at the moment I don't know!)

 

Not that any of 'em would....but wouldn't that be a strong dose o' irony?!?

Whole new unexplored frontiers of stuff for entitle-whiners t'get all het up over.

~*

[+Lassendograiser]

Here is my two cents worth. If a person wants to list a PMO then go for it. If a non premium member wants to find it then they will become a Premium member. I too became a premium member prior to geting into caching hot and heavy.

As for why gc.com allows anything but premuim members I don't think I would have gotten into it without the basic membership. I utilized that basic membership to learn just what geocaching was all about. Then I felt the hook set and realized I had to upgrade.

While I do not condone anyone bashing anyone for anything I do understand the frustration levels that can creap up on us. Vinny I understand your amazement as I to would be amazed by the boldness however not everyone has the tack or abilities to write what they really mean so is it possible that they, the non premium members, were just trying to ask a question and just didn't do it in a fashion that you or I would have? I personnaly, and this is only my opinion, don't see any need for the fuss. If you choose to be a premium member then great! Use the bennefits as you see fit. If you choose not to become a premium member or can not for whatever reason then that is ok too. But either way there is no need to get "pissy" for lack of a better word with anyone else. Again, all of this is just my opinion and not intended to start a war.

[+Sioneva]

"... It's not a question of PMs vs Non-PMs, it's a question of PMs vs 'non-PMs who think that they should be entitled to all the privileges of PMs without paying for them'. ..."

 

Nice try, babybubba....but I'm not sure I can get completely in bed with even that.

When you say, "...all the privileges", would that include the privilege of letting non-PMs make their caches PMO? (Presuming they can't already -- honestly, at the moment I don't know!)

 

Not that any of 'em would....but wouldn't that be a strong dose o' irony?!?

Whole new unexplored frontiers of stuff for entitle-whiners t'get all het up over.

~*

 

You seem to have forgotten you belong to the Cult of Sioneva. You're not permitted to argue with me.

 

 

But I don't know - that would be interesting to see!

[+Star*Hopper]

 

You seem to have forgotten you belong to the Cult of Sioneva. You're not permitted to argue with me.

Spank me hurt me make me write bad checks.

~*

[+BrrrMo]

Why I see where you're coming from, I think you've gone slightly overboard on this one. Not every cacher is perfect, and there is no cacher "mold". We come from all walks of life, and thus there will always be people that might ask for this kind of thing, or complain about the premium membership cost.

 

Having a thread to try to spite all of them isn't really going to do anything. Again, I see where you're coming from, but this isn't productive.

I think that a thread such as this is very productive, as it may give the whiners and complainers a chance to recognize their dysfunctional and ungrateful behavior and the concomitant chance to decide to grow up and become contributing members of society, or, at the least, it might shame some of the "askers" into either shutting up or becoming Premium members if they wish to see the PUC #13 listing page.

 

Again, as noted many times before, I have NOTHING against non-paying "free" or regular members. What I do mind is if and when they ask or demand that I convert my PMOC caches to ordinary caches. This takes a tremendous amount of gall, nerve and moral depravity, in my book.

 

Vinny & Sue Team;

 

You folks are such a Hoot!

 

BrrrMo