Please ask for permission and label the Geocache

March 16, 2009

We are mourning the loss of yet another geocache due to the failure of proper advance planning.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_...0903151534_rev1

March 16, 2009

I think maybe a little bright blue bison tube or something like that would have been better in an urban setting. Putting a cache that looks like a bomb without a label on the outside is not a good idea.

March 16, 2009

It's more complicated than just labeling caches.

I think most people who thought they had discovered a bomb would not get close enough to read the label.

I think a lot of people who did read the label would have no idea what it meant.

If sticking a "geocache" label on something meant you could place it anywhere you like, I think the people who do plant bombs would start sticking geocache labels on their bombs.

9.3k · March 16, 2009

"It appeared to be some type of pipe wrapped in a duct tape,"

Yeah, that's a great idea for an urban cache... :rolleyes:

8.3k · March 16, 2009

Container aside, getting permission and labeling will not stop the cache from being blown up. Many threads here documenting had permission and labeled. If someone reports a "suspicious package" it is probably 90% assured it will be blown up.

Jim

18.9k · March 16, 2009

Container aside, getting permission and labeling will not stop the cache from being blown up. Many threads here documenting had permission and labeled. If someone reports a "suspicious package" it is probably 90% assured it will be blown up.

Jim

Yup - I've seen too many stories of clear plastic containers placed with permission and labeled - at least 1 local. kaboom!!

Once it is labeled as suspicious by the cops - kiss it goodbye.

9.3k · March 16, 2009

Once it is labeled as suspicious by the cops - kiss it goodbye.

I think that's the key phrase. It matters little what the general public thinks. If the first responder decides something is suspicious, a chain reaction begins.

While it's true that the process can be stopped by those coming into the incident afterwards, (supervisors/EOD/etc), it's not typical.

Once the flag is raised by the initial responder, intellect usually goes by the wayside.

March 16, 2009

It is interesting to note that one of the first responders to this incident is an active geocacher. In fact, after blowing the cache up, he logged a find on it. :rolleyes: He made some crack about it now being a many part multi. I was co-FTF on this cache, and it in no way looked anything like an explosive device. I suppose that when a county has spent lots of Homeland Security $ on bomb disposal robots and equipment, periodically you've got to justify the expense by blowing something up.

March 16, 2009

Once it is labeled as suspicious by the cops - kiss it goodbye.

I think that's the key phrase. It matters little what the general public thinks. If the first responder decides something is suspicious, a chain reaction begins.

While it's true that the process can be stopped by those coming into the incident afterwards, (supervisors/EOD/etc), it's not typical.

Once the flag is raised by the initial responder, intellect usually goes by the wayside.

Post of the month, CR! I respect yo Autho'i-TY!! :rolleyes:

Lord lord....I dunno folks. I just find it funnier'n all hell that the Bomb Squad (and I frequently think they weren't named that JUST for the stuff they 'investigate'!) comes out, swaddled in layers upon layers of protective gear.....sends in the dog to sniff it....nothing.....sends in the Robo-Cop to sniff it, televise it, photograph it (in 8 x 10 Color Glossy Photos)....maybe even ask it a few questions....nothing....

.

then blows it up anyway.

Gotta pertect that budget allocation!

\'funny' as in, ludicrous!

~*

24.7k · March 16, 2009

We are mourning the loss of yet another geocache due to the failure of proper advance planning.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_...0903151534_rev1

"I was 99 percent sure that it was a geocache but I'm not going to gamble on it with the one percent,"

That's the key point.

Every cache, labled or unlabled, with or without permission will be treated as that 1%. So will everthing else.

The problem isn't with the cache in a park. It's that we have people who make bombs. Random harmless things being called in and responded too is just collateral damage of having the real thing to contend with.

It's a small price to pay. But it's not a problem by itself.

24.7k · March 16, 2009

...If someone reports a "suspicious package" it is probably 90% assured it will be blown up.

Jim

You don't hear about the ones that don't get blown up. In one case I've heard though the sherrif's office had a good number of cachers. The responding officer being a cacher and knowing the object was cache nixed the bigger responce.

I think we get a lot more use out of having cachers among the ranks of the folks who respond than anything other than "hide it so muggles don't find it".

4.1k · March 16, 2009

There are two things that are equally true: caches will be mistaken for bombs despite our efforts and there are probably things we can do to reduce the chance that caches will be mistaken for bombs.

But the thing that interested me about the article I read was a reference to regulations:

"Several communities have laws in place to regulate the placement of geocaching devices. Some of them include Madison, Milwaukee and Waushara County."

I am familiar, of course, with various regulations and guidelines used by parks and land managers. But I have not heard of regulations being adopted on a city wide or county wide basis. Is anyone familiar with this.

March 16, 2009

:rolleyes:

... anything other than "hide it so muggles don't find it".

In itself a very VERY good point, RK. I also believe that in many of these "bomb" cases we increasingly hear about, we also have those to thank who don't care one whit about letting Muggles see them doing what we're doing. It's all about "got mine - don't care what happens afterwards....go get that next number!"

That just purely REEKS of "me-me-me-ism"....a trait I purely loathe!

I wish I had a dollar for every cache I've left for later due to the Muggle factor....and more'n once, multiple times.

(I'd prolly have $10-12 by now!) :lol:

Seriously, more....much more! And because I do....we all have more.

~*

7.7k · March 16, 2009

It is interesting to note that one of the first responders to this incident is an active geocacher. In fact, after blowing the cache up, he logged a find on it. He made some crack about it now being a many part multi.

Did he sign the (presumably disintegrated) log? If not, his find should be deleted.

In any case, this seem like poor taste on his part to me.

Besides, he didn't find it, did he? Someone else did. Maybe a "Needs Maintenance"...

19k · March 16, 2009

There are two things that are equally true: caches will be mistaken for bombs despite our efforts and there are probably things we can do to reduce the chance that caches will be mistaken for bombs.

But the thing that interested me about the article I read was a reference to regulations:

"Several communities have laws in place to regulate the placement of geocaching devices. Some of them include Madison, Milwaukee and Waushara County."

I am familiar, of course, with various regulations and guidelines used by parks and land managers. But I have not heard of regulations being adopted on a city wide or county wide basis. Is anyone familiar with this.

Going OT long enough to answer the immediate question...

Here in Minnesota, we have cities with regulations, counties with regulations, state parks with regulations, and other state agencies with regulations. Fortunately I live and hide my caches in a county that doesn't care to bother with such details and in cities that feel the same way... so far.

As for the topic at hand... I found several things interesting in these paragraphs:

"It's kind of an adventure to find things." said Allouez Fire Dept. Capt. Bryan Becker. Becker is a geocacher. He also responded to the call at Optimist Park and had a hunch about the device.

"I was 99 percent sure that it was a geocache but I'm not going to gamble on it with the one percent," Becker said.

The geocache was listed online.

First, that the Caption is a geocacher, and that the cache was listed online. I wonder if he'd already found this one.

But I particularily find it amusing that the park was called "Optimist Park", given Becker's statement about not gambling on the 1 percent! :rolleyes:

One more thing... the statement about the statement that it looked like a "pipe" wrapped in duct tape. Knowing how the media sometimes reports things, the "pipe" may have been nothing more than a pill bottle. I'd take that part with a grain of salt until we know more.

4.2k · March 16, 2009

The problem isn't with the cache in a park. It's that we have people who make bombs.

I've tried several times to find any reports in the media of actual bombs being found by the bomb squad and all I've been able to find are "suspicious devices" that were blown up because they might have been a bomb.

Somebody please show me evidence of the rampant mad bombers that are loose in the USA.

24.7k · March 16, 2009

The problem isn't with the cache in a park. It's that we have people who make bombs.

I've tried several times to find any reports in the media of actual bombs being found by the bomb squad and all I've been able to find are "suspicious devices" that were blown up because they might have been a bomb.

Somebody please show me evidence of the rampant mad bombers that are loose in the USA.

Well heck. If there are no bombs anymore seems like we can save a lot of aggrivation.

Actually I did look into this ones (numbers off the top of my head). Out of roughly 20 incidents that rose to the state level in my state 1 was real. I could be all washed up. It's been a couple of years since I posed the question and chased down the answer.

A few years before that I read a report of a maintence crew that found a roadside bomb. Propane tank with nails duct taped to it. This was in another state.

It would not suprise me to learn that they hush up the real thing and advertise the heck out of the false alarms. Seems to be the MO of TPTB.

March 16, 2009

photograph it (in 8 x 10 Color Glossy Photos)....

....With circles and arrows explaining the situation on the back of each one!

Alice's Restaurant reference?? :rolleyes:

Edited March 16, 2009 by nycdancerboi

March 16, 2009

I hope that it's not considered bad form to post the link: GC166HZ

19k · March 16, 2009

Cammo'd container only had room for a log book, so bring your own writing utensil.

Sure doesn't sound like a very big bomb to me!!

March 16, 2009

Somebody please show me evidence of the rampant mad bombers that are loose in the USA.

Here's a story about a "mad bomber" that was put away last night just about 4 miles from my house. But he planned to blow his own house up. Does that count? If you can't detonate a bomb in your own house, where can you detonate a bomb?

http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9012477

18.9k · March 16, 2009

The problem isn't with the cache in a park. It's that we have people who make bombs.

I've tried several times to find any reports in the media of actual bombs being found by the bomb squad and all I've been able to find are "suspicious devices" that were blown up because they might have been a bomb.

Somebody please show me evidence of the rampant mad bombers that are loose in the USA.

The 2 bozos that shot up Columbine back when used to test out thier homemade bombs out in the woods and fields near thier houses. I've read that several places.

Just about 2 months ago - they found 2 devices outside a bank and one of them blew up killing a cop. Washington or Oregon I believe.

About 10 years ago - some local kids detonated a small homemade black powder device on our front porch and several houses in town. (wife is a High School Teacher). When they searched the kids house they found the kids had built about 2 dozen and tested a few in a local field.

It happens. It must be taken seriously.

March 16, 2009

photograph it (in 8 x 10 Color Glossy Photos)....

....With circles and arrows explaining the situation on the back of each one!

Alice's Restaurant reference??

HOPED some would "get that"! :lol: :lol:

APPROVES!

\"...don't wan-n-nt a pickle........."

:rolleyes:

~*

Edited March 16, 2009 by Star*Hopper

14k · March 16, 2009

I hope that it's not considered bad form to post the link: GC166HZ

I was hoping the someone would because I was wondering about the location of the cache. It appears to be in a neighborhood park. While labeling the container "might" have made difference, asking permission from the land manager (I'm guessing this was a town park) would not have made a difference. Even if the city parks department was aware of the cache, all of the neighbors near the park would have not have known about it.

I did a cache awhile which had a stage just outside a small town library. The cache listing indicated that permission was granted to place the cache there, but apparently not all of the employees were informed as a couple of cachers have been asked to leave the area while searching in the small courtyard area for the container.

6.7k · March 16, 2009

The problem isn't with the cache in a park. It's that we have people who make bombs.

I've tried several times to find any reports in the media of actual bombs being found by the bomb squad and all I've been able to find are "suspicious devices" that were blown up because they might have been a bomb.

Somebody please show me evidence of the rampant mad bombers that are loose in the USA.

Otay... here's a recent local one http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/03/update..._traffor_1.html

and another nearby http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?S=9963512

and another http://www.spencerdailyreporter.com/story/1506604.html

and another http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/26/clinic.bomb/index.html

or these http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-64620133.html

or surely you didn't miss this one http://cgi.cnn.com/US/9801/29/bombing.update/

Google "bomb found" for an education in how common these are.

Edited March 16, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

March 16, 2009

Somebody please show me evidence of the rampant mad bombers that are loose in the USA.

Here you go. Two men died because the bomb disposal expert was an optimist and guessed the "suspicious package found under the bushes" wasn't really a bomb.

9.3k · March 17, 2009

Every cache, labeled or unlabeled, with or without permission will be treated as that 1%.

Not necessarily. The 1% math doesn't really start till EOD arrives. Then it's pretty much doomed. (or should that be "boomed"?) I am an advocate of labelling cache containers, as well as obtaining permission as needed, because I believe that doing both reduces the number of caches that can potentially go boom. In these forums, it's easy to measure the rate at which caches get blown up, however it's impossible to measure how many caches get located by muggles without ever meeting an explosive demise. I know from past experience that several of mine have been found by folks who, at that point, hadn't ever played this game. None of these were blown up, or, as far as I know, even reported as being suspicious devices. When we consider the probably chain of events which eventually lead to a cache getting detonated, it's easy to see that permission and labelling could break that chain.

Will labels and permissions guarantee a cache's safety? Of course not.

Do they help? I, for one, believe they do.

38.2k · March 17, 2009

Container aside, getting permission and labeling will not stop the cache from being blown up. Many threads here documenting had permission and labeled. If someone reports a "suspicious package" it is probably 90% assured it will be blown up.

Jim

Yup - I've seen too many stories of clear plastic containers placed with permission and labeled - at least 1 local. kaboom!!

Once it is labeled as suspicious by the cops - kiss it goodbye.

I recall one where it was hidden with permission and a geocacher was on site and told the responders what it was and offered to open the cache for them and was told no. Kaboom!

March 17, 2009

I recall one where it was hidden with permission and a geocacher was on site and told the responders what it was and offered to open the cache for them and was told no. Kaboom!

Well in that case, somebody would have some REAL 'splainin' to do, Lucy!

That's just police brutality!

~*

24.7k · March 17, 2009

Every cache, labeled or unlabeled, with or without permission will be treated as that 1%.

Not necessarily. The 1% math doesn't really start till EOD arrives. Then it's pretty much doomed. (or should that be "boomed"?) I am an advocate of labelling cache containers, as well as obtaining permission as needed, because I believe that doing both reduces the number of caches that can potentially go boom. In these forums, it's easy to measure the rate at which caches get blown up, however it's impossible to measure how many caches get located by muggles without ever meeting an explosive demise. I know from past experience that several of mine have been found by folks who, at that point, hadn't ever played this game. None of these were blown up, or, as far as I know, even reported as being suspicious devices. When we consider the probably chain of events which eventually lead to a cache getting detonated, it's easy to see that permission and labelling could break that chain.

Will labels and permissions guarantee a cache's safety? Of course not.

Do they help? I, for one, believe they do.

Agreed. My orginal comment was focused on your opening line. Since I've had a cache reported but it was the narc guys who responded it's clear that decisions are made before the EOD gets involved and that some of those decisions determinewho responds.

March 18, 2009

The one thing I'm wondering about this incident is who reported it? Was it a neighbor of the park or someone visiting the park that day? If it was a neighbor of the park, why did they wait a whole year and a half? I'm sure they had to have seen us cachers down there from time to time. Was there really a reason they waited until March 15, 2009? This being one of my cache finds (my first to boot), I can tell you with absolute certainty that this cache container wasn't labeled in any way, shape, or form. It happens that I know the county board supervisor for that area, and she has friends on the Allouez village board (where this cache was placed). I plan on talking to her tomorrow at some point about this. I will provide updates on that front as they come in.

-The Happy Hodag!

A politically connected GeoCacher

4.2k · March 18, 2009

The problem isn't with the cache in a park. It's that we have people who make bombs.

I've tried several times to find any reports in the media of actual bombs being found by the bomb squad and all I've been able to find are "suspicious devices" that were blown up because they might have been a bomb.

Somebody please show me evidence of the rampant mad bombers that are loose in the USA.

Otay... here's a recent local one http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2009/03/update..._traffor_1.html

and another nearby http://www.wsfa.com/global/story.asp?S=9963512

and another http://www.spencerdailyreporter.com/story/1506604.html

and another http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/26/clinic.bomb/index.html

or these http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-64620133.html

or surely you didn't miss this one http://cgi.cnn.com/US/9801/29/bombing.update/

Google "bomb found" for an education in how common these are.

I've been thinking of a response that conveys my opinions on this that doesn't make me sound like a back-peddling jerk with no respect for the officers in the field or the people that may have been harmed or killed by an explosive in a public area... Still working on that.

I don't know if I'd call all the examples you posted "mad bombers" (by that I mean serial bombers) but I guess it really doesn't matter. I take your point. There are plenty of people that for one reason or another like to play with black powder or other easy-to-obtain explosives and either leave them laying around in their homes or leave them in public areas. I still feel in my gut that the "bombs" found of this variety are more likely to be still on the property of the person making them, but I could be wrong.

Also, people have been doing harm to other people who do not share their political/religious views for years and there are locations that will draw these actions. I also feel in my gut that these locations are seldom if ever used for caching, but I could be wrong.

I'm going to do further research, as you recommended, and build up some real statistics to base my opinions on. I've seen links to data compiled by some government agency or another, but they seemed to cover a very broad range of events under one single heading.

After I've complied the data, I'll re-post it here and maybe we'll all learn something. In short, I'm not going to engage in a multi-post argument (replete with quotes nested inside of quotes, ad infinitum and ad nauseum) as tends to happen when clearly I don't have all my facts in order.

4.7k · March 18, 2009

I suppose that when a county has spent lots of Homeland Security $ on bomb disposal robots and equipment, periodically you've got to justify the expense by blowing something up.

dingdingding ding!

20.7k · March 18, 2009

... One more thing... the statement about the statement that it looked like a "pipe" wrapped in duct tape. Knowing how the media sometimes reports things, the "pipe" may have been nothing more than a pill bottle. I'd take that part with a grain of salt until we know more.

Given that the cache that was esploded was 'seeded' from GCY1PX. I seriously doubt that it was a pipe. Other caches from that seed cache were reported to be film cans.

March 18, 2009

APPROVES!

\"...don't wan-n-nt a pickle........."

~*

Continuing OT but cain't help it. ahem -

"just wanna ride my motor-sickle.

I don't wanna die -"

March 18, 2009

APPROVES!

\"...don't wan-n-nt a pickle........."

~*

Continuing OT but cain't help it. ahem -

"just wanna ride my motor-sickle.

I don't wanna die -"

Aaaahh....another kindred spirit.

Wey-ull.....you KNOW I know what comes next, but in the interest of not gettin' bonked......

Headin' down to Alice's.

.

WHERE you can get anything you want

At Alice's Restaurant!

('cept Alice)

24.7k · March 18, 2009

...Was there really a reason they waited until March 15, 2009? ...

The Ides of March? What better day to pull off such a thing.

Please ask for permission and label the Geocache

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