Power Trails?

[Fledermaus]

I have several friends who have received notices from reviewers regarding "Power Trails". Apparently, if and when you discover an entirely new area suitable for multiple cache placements, if you place two or more caches, you may receive such a notice.

 

What is the real issue here and where in the rules and/or guidelines is this "Power Trail" issue addressed?

 

Some of my friends have received such notices, which read something like "you need to leave room for other cachers to place their own caches. If nothing happens, you can place more of them."

 

It appears that this attitude varies from area to area or state to state. IMHO, to have such an undefined and/or non-existent guideline applied by one reviewer and not another is utterly Frogwash!

 

I have another friend, who is a cacher, and he manages(not owns) a large timber company, of which they control several hundreds of thousands of acres of forest land throughout my county and Washington State. He will allow horseback riders and brush pickers onto their land, but by permit process only. He told me that he might allow caches on local land, but doing so without the permit process, would be unfair to those who are required to have permits. Furthermore, he would need to know who places the caches and where they are located. However, areas with active logging would be off limits! Got any suggestions?

 

BTW, what do you do when a cache has been placed onto private or commercial lands, and you know for a fact that no permission was given? Do you keep your trap shut and hope for the best, inform the cache owner of your concerns or inform the property owner?

Edited March 15, 2009 by Fledermaus

[+Vater_Araignee]

I have several friends who have received notices from reviewers regarding "Power Trails". Apparently, if and when you discover an entirely new area suitable for multiple cache placements, if you place two or more caches, you may receive such a notice.

 

What is the real issue here and where in the rules and/or guidelines is this "Power Trail" issue addressed?

 

Some of my friends have received such notices, which read something like "you need to leave room for other cachers to place their own caches. If nothing happens, you can place more of them."

They can solve the issue by trying to...

Publish slower

Not create lines with their placements

Space them further apart.

 

It appears that this attitude varies from area to area or state to state. IMHO, to have such an undefined and/or non-existent guideline applied by one reviewer and not another is utterly Frogwash!

Frogwash? I think not. What you and yours consider acceptable practices in you neck of the woods wont necessarily meet up with me and mine.

Like in Michigan we don't have a mandatory minimum sentence for minor (small quantities not minor in possession) marijuana possession but Washington State does and your neighbors in Oregon have decided that minor marijuana possession is equal to a minor traffic violation and decriminalized it.

The more I learn about cretin levels of GS, the more I see how democratic things can be, so just have people follow the above suggestions until local attitudes change.

 

I have another friend, who is a cacher, and he manages(not owns) a large timber company, of which they control several hundreds of thousands of acres of forest land throughout my county and Washington State. He will allow horseback riders and brush pickers onto their land, but by permit process only. He told me that he might allow caches on local land, but doing so without the permit process, would be unfair to those who are required to have permits. Furthermore, he would need to know who places the caches and where they are located. However, areas with active logging would be off limits! Got any suggestions?

They way this reads to me is not only would you need a permit to place a cache but you would need one to go after it.

 

BTW, what do you do when a cache has been placed onto private or commercial lands, and you know for a fact that no permission was given? Do you keep your trap shut and hope for the best, inform the cache owner of your concerns or inform the property owner?

I treat each one as an individual with zero precedents set by another.

[Clan Riffster]

What is the real issue here and where in the rules and/or guidelines is this "Power Trail" issue addressed?

Cache Saturation

The reviewers use a rule of thumb that caches placed within .10 miles (528 feet or 161 metres) of another cache may not be published on the site. This is an arbitrary distance and is just a guideline, but the ultimate goal is to reduce the number of caches hidden in a particular area and to reduce confusion that might otherwise result when one cache is found while looking for another. On the same note, don't go cache crazy and hide a cache every 600 feet just because you can. If you want to create a series of caches (sometimes called a "Power Trail"), the reviewer may require you to create a multi-cache, if the waypoints are close together. A series of caches that are generally intended to be found as a group are good candidates for submission as a single multicache.

[+wimseyguy]

I'd suggest you let your friends have this discussion with their reviewers.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Oh goody! More trolling from the OP!

 

As stated above, Power Trails are clearly outlined in the Cache Listing Reqirements/Guidelines.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Motorcycle_Mama

[+StarBrand]

As you can see the "Power Trail" guidelines are real and regularly enforced.

 

As for the caches on commercial property, the polite thing to do would be to contact the cache owners privately and ask them what permission were obtained. You really can't know for certain unless you ask. Then if you do not get an adquate answer and you know that the caches bother the land owners (for certain) - contact the local reviewer with what you have found out. We don't want Geocaching to get a black eye.

However, keep in mind that many business owners have not given permission for a cache directly but they also turn a blind eye to the situation because it is also no big deal. Local managers do not want to stick thier necks out by making up rules not found in thier handbooks. But they do not mind a few cachers nearby either. Remeber we do not need explicit permission - only adequate.

Edited March 15, 2009 by StarBrand

[+StarBrand]

BTW - Let me strongly encourage you and your friends to go back and read and then re-read and then triple read the guidelines until you understand them well - just in case you may have missed some of the other details. Makes getting caches published much easier if your hides fit nicely into all of them.

[+joranda]

"BTW, what do you do when a cache has been placed onto private or commercial lands, and you know for a fact that no permission was given? Do you keep your trap shut and hope for the best, inform the cache owner of your concerns or inform the property owner?"

 

 

In the gudielines you are supposed to have permission. "Well that is what I was told". A cacher I know pretty much got introuble for "Not keeping his mouth shut' on caches that was placed where there was no permission granted for them to be there. He is now serving a 3 month ban. Moral of the story,"Don't upset your local cachers cause they can complaine enough to get you in trouble for doing the right thing. Shoot, I probably just got in trouble for this! I think the guidelines need to be changed to, "Don't ask, don't tell". I've been told that it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

[+briansnat]

"BTW, what do you do when a cache has been placed onto private or commercial lands, and you know for a fact that no permission was given? Do you keep your trap shut and hope for the best, inform the cache owner of your concerns or inform the property owner?"

 

 

In the gudielines you are supposed to have permission. "Well that is what I was told". A cacher I know pretty much got introuble for "Not keeping his mouth shut' on caches that was placed where there was no permission granted for them to be there. He is now serving a 3 month ban. Moral of the story,"Don't upset your local cachers cause they can complaine enough to get you in trouble for doing the right thing. Shoot, I probably just got in trouble for this! I think the guidelines need to be changed to, "Don't ask, don't tell". I've been told that it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

 

Sounds like half of a story to me. NOBODY gets a 3 month ban simply for reporting illegal caches. NOBODY.

Edited March 15, 2009 by briansnat

[+Star*Hopper]

I've been told that it is better easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

 

FTFY

 

~*

[+Cardinal Red]

The more I learn about cretin levels of GS, ...

I'm trying to decide if you are now in the running for my favorite poster of the year, or the one most in need of a proofreader.

[+joranda]

It maybe half the story, I'm not sure. You Could probably find out more than the rest.

[+Allanon]

The more I learn about cretin levels of GS, ...

I'm trying to decide if you are now in the running for my favorite poster of the year, or the one most in need of a proofreader.

My vote would be the latter...

[+Kit Fox]

Some previous threads on the topic.

 

The best discussion back 2005 when the new rules were created. Power Trails 7 pages, 326 posts

 

Power Trail Question for Groundspeak

 

Treasure Trail

 

Power Trails Lets loosen up restrictions!

 

Power Trails - Guidelines? Seeking definition/guidelines

 

Power-trail Cache/ Cache Saturation

[AZcachemeister]

'Power Trails' tend to evolve of their own accord along popular routes.

Here in the Metro Phoenix area (and probably any similar metroplex) they seem to be more like 'Power Blobs', with more than enough caches in a two-mile square to keep you busy all day.

 

'Power Trails', (in and of themselves) are not necessarily bad, but those that get created all on the same day, by one owner would probably be a bit more redundant and tedious than creative. It is certainly possible to create a well-done 'Power Trail' all in one go (with lots of planning), but I think I would rather see caches hidden by several owners along a stretch of trail or country road.

[Mr.Yuck]

"BTW, what do you do when a cache has been placed onto private or commercial lands, and you know for a fact that no permission was given? Do you keep your trap shut and hope for the best, inform the cache owner of your concerns or inform the property owner?"

 

 

In the gudielines you are supposed to have permission. "Well that is what I was told". A cacher I know pretty much got introuble for "Not keeping his mouth shut' on caches that was placed where there was no permission granted for them to be there. He is now serving a 3 month ban. Moral of the story,"Don't upset your local cachers cause they can complaine enough to get you in trouble for doing the right thing. Shoot, I probably just got in trouble for this! I think the guidelines need to be changed to, "Don't ask, don't tell". I've been told that it is better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

 

Sounds like half of a story to me. NOBODY gets a 3 month ban simply for reporting illegal caches. NOBODY.

 

Lets see. I could probably post SBA's and "report" about 300 parking lot micros that everyone, including the reviewers who published them, know darn well were placed without permission. And I'll bet I'd get a temporary ban for it.

[+Star*Hopper]

While we're on the subject -

Check this screencap I just made...and please note the railway depicted that basically runs alongside the main highway running left-to-right.

 

Last week the weekly newsletter came in, & reading the new caches I noticed ~10 new hides placed along a new "Rails-To-Trails" route that's still in process of opening up. Not so remarkable in itself, perhaps, but the week prior's edition had another 15 or so placed along that same trail; of the 10-12 I viewed, all micros, and with a couple of exceptions, all by the same guy.....and all this along, from what I saw, a 5.2-mile stretch. That's 25-30 micros, within a 7-day period, over 5.2 miles, & mostly by same cacher.

 

I've got ABSOLUTELY NOTHING by way of 'problems' with this -- more caches = more fun! ....but insofar as Guidelines being "real and regularly enforced", & "...you need to leave room for other cachers to place their own caches", et al (and no, I'm not wanting to myself) -- my simple question is, what about this is NOT a power trail? On first look, it'd appear to be the Poster Child for 'em!

 

Just curious about 'interpretations'?

Thx.

~*

[+TrailGators]

On first look, it'd appear to be the Poster Child for 'em!

 

Just curious about 'interpretations'?

Thx.

~*

It's not even close to the being the Poster Child. There are other way better ones out there than that...

[Clan Riffster]

It's not even close to the being the Poster Child. There are other way better ones out there than that...

This is the best poster child I've seen.

Easy - 21

36 caches, all by the same user, all with the same name, (Easy - thru 36), most with barely more than 1/10 of a mile between them.

I was told that this series was the one responsible for Groundspeak's power trail rule.

[+Vater_Araignee]

The more I learn about cretin levels of GS, ...

I'm trying to decide if you are now in the running for my favorite poster of the year, or the one most in need of a proofreader.

My vote would be the latter...

Mine too.

Yet it doesn't negate what I say, it just gives nit pickers something to do.

Can't bag his logic, then bag his fat fingers.

[Mr.Yuck]

It's not even close to the being the Poster Child. There are other way better ones out there than that...

This is the best poster child I've seen.

Easy - 21

36 caches, all by the same user, all with the same name, (Easy - thru 36), most with barely more than 1/10 of a mile between them.

I was told that this series was the one responsible for Groundspeak's power trail rule.

 

Very interesting, CR. They seem to all have been adopted, and adopted by a Sock Puppet?

 

Personally, I haven't seen too many Power Trails. Not in my immediate area, at least. Here is a "project" that was nipped in the bud pretty early by the reviewer. If you read the first few paragraphs of that cache page, you see there is clearly the intent to create a power trail with as many caches as possible.

 

Here's one that came up in these forums last year. It's a parking lot micro power trail along a commercial strip in Ohio that has been closed to further cache placements.

[+Renegade Knight]

...What is the real issue here and where in the rules and/or guidelines is this "Power Trail" issue addressed?...

 

Real Issue. "Cache Saturation"

Guidelines. None. It's reviewer discression as to when they see "Cache Saturation".

Power Trails being the biggest thing that seems to trigger it.

 

I think I will follow through with a power trail that I've planned for several years. Nobody else has put caches there. It's an interesting hike that not many make. Sounds like a good cache event.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Oh goody! More trolling from the OP!

 

As stated above, Power Trails are clearly outlined in the Cache Listing Reqirements/Guidelines.

[+Star*Hopper]

It's not even close to the being the Poster Child. There are other way better ones out there than that...

This is the best poster child I've seen.

Easy - 21

36 caches, all by the same user, all with the same name, (Easy - thru 36), most with barely more than 1/10 of a mile between them.

I was told that this series was the one responsible for Groundspeak's power trail rule.

 

Very interesting, CR. They seem to all have been adopted, and adopted by a Sock Puppet?

 

Personally, I haven't seen too many Power Trails. Not in my immediate area, at least. Here is a "project" that was nipped in the bud pretty early by the reviewer. If you read the first few paragraphs of that cache page, you see there is clearly the intent to create a power trail with as many caches as possible.

 

Here's one that came up in these forums last year. It's a parking lot micro power trail along a commercial strip in Ohio that has been closed to further cache placements.

 

All well & good, guys -- but before this wanders too far astray on "great examples", on the one I presented - is this one IS, or is it AIN'T a 'Power Trail'??

~*

[knowschad]

It's not even close to the being the Poster Child. There are other way better ones out there than that...

This is the best poster child I've seen.

Easy - 21

36 caches, all by the same user, all with the same name, (Easy - thru 36), most with barely more than 1/10 of a mile between them.

I was told that this series was the one responsible for Groundspeak's power trail rule.

 

Very interesting, CR. They seem to all have been adopted, and adopted by a Sock Puppet?

 

Personally, I haven't seen too many Power Trails. Not in my immediate area, at least. Here is a "project" that was nipped in the bud pretty early by the reviewer. If you read the first few paragraphs of that cache page, you see there is clearly the intent to create a power trail with as many caches as possible.

 

Here's one that came up in these forums last year. It's a parking lot micro power trail along a commercial strip in Ohio that has been closed to further cache placements.

 

All well & good, guys -- but before this wanders too far astray on "great examples", on the one I presented - is this one IS, or is it AIN'T a 'Power Trail'??

~*

 

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I was busy packing my bags for a trip to Jacksonville, NC. Sure looks like one to me!!

 

I'd love to see what the local reviewer has to say.

[Mr.Yuck]

It's not even close to the being the Poster Child. There are other way better ones out there than that...

This is the best poster child I've seen.

Easy - 21

36 caches, all by the same user, all with the same name, (Easy - thru 36), most with barely more than 1/10 of a mile between them.

I was told that this series was the one responsible for Groundspeak's power trail rule.

 

Very interesting, CR. They seem to all have been adopted, and adopted by a Sock Puppet?

 

Personally, I haven't seen too many Power Trails. Not in my immediate area, at least. Here is a "project" that was nipped in the bud pretty early by the reviewer. If you read the first few paragraphs of that cache page, you see there is clearly the intent to create a power trail with as many caches as possible.

 

Here's one that came up in these forums last year. It's a parking lot micro power trail along a commercial strip in Ohio that has been closed to further cache placements.

 

All well & good, guys -- but before this wanders too far astray on "great examples", on the one I presented - is this one IS, or is it AIN'T a 'Power Trail'??

~*

 

Sorry it took so long to reply, but I was busy packing my bags for a trip to Jacksonville, NC. Sure looks like one to me!!

 

I'd love to see what the local reviewer has to say.

 

What does the reviewer have to say? One word: Published.

 

Yes, I had to find it first. It's a Power trail. 30 caches placed in a 6 day period by one account. Here's the whole thing, btw. I think you see 33 caches, but 30 of them by the one placer.

[+Star*Hopper]

Hey, Thx for the bigger picture, Urk! I tried, but when I zoomed out just one more notch, my browser kept bogging down & just sat there grindin' for like 10 minutes before bombing. In addition to GS's sluggishness of late, my ISP's having thruput problems. You da man!!

~*

[+TrailGators]

It's not even close to the being the Poster Child. There are other way better ones out there than that...

This is the best poster child I've seen.

Easy - 21

36 caches, all by the same user, all with the same name, (Easy - thru 36), most with barely more than 1/10 of a mile between them.

I was told that this series was the one responsible for Groundspeak's power trail rule.

 

Very interesting, CR. They seem to all have been adopted, and adopted by a Sock Puppet?

 

Personally, I haven't seen too many Power Trails. Not in my immediate area, at least. Here is a "project" that was nipped in the bud pretty early by the reviewer. If you read the first few paragraphs of that cache page, you see there is clearly the intent to create a power trail with as many caches as possible.

 

Here's one that came up in these forums last year. It's a parking lot micro power trail along a commercial strip in Ohio that has been closed to further cache placements.

 

All well & good, guys -- but before this wanders too far astray on "great examples", on the one I presented - is this one IS, or is it AIN'T a 'Power Trail'??

~*

The answer to that is........The emperor is wearing a robe.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

I'd suggest you let your friends have this discussion with their reviewers.

Well, it also does not hurt to have the discussion in public so that more people can gain an understanding of the outcome.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

 

I have another friend, who is a cacher, and he manages(not owns) a large timber company, of which they control several hundreds of thousands of acres of forest land throughout my county and Washington State. He will allow horseback riders and brush pickers onto their land, but by permit process only. He told me that he might allow caches on local land, but doing so without the permit process, would be unfair to those who are required to have permits. Furthermore, he would need to know who places the caches and where they are located. However, areas with active logging would be off limits! Got any suggestions?

 

It sounds like you would want to work with this land manager to set up a permitting process. If it's free, then it should be able to work. If there's a fee for the access permit, then I guess special permission would be needed from Groundspeak for each Cache placed.

[+The red-haired witch]

The power trail guideline enforcement does seem to vary from reviewer to reviewer and over time. Existing power trails may have been built up gradually over time and there is no guidelines against that. Reviewers seem to object mainly when you try to hide a large number of traditional caches close together at the same time. If you really want to put caches all along a trail you just discovered, there are a few things that you can do to avoid conflicts with your reviewer (may depend on the reviewer, but in my experience, this helps):

 

- Vary caches (a couple of traditionals, a couple of multis, a couple of puzzles)

 

- Publish them over several weeks

 

- Leave room in between for future caches from other hiders

 

- Get together with a few other hiders, place a couple caches each along the trail

 

There are a few great examples of bike path power trails in Quebec. One I want to visit this year is 200km long, with one cache each km (no problem on the cache saturation with that!). The caches were placed by many different people over many months. The result is certainly more varied hides than if they had been placed by one single person on one weekend.

 

You can build good power trails within the guidelines, it just takes time