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...The real question is: Since when is it appropriate for a Premium Member to delete a valid log entry, based solely on the fact that I am a Non-Premium Member? And where in the rules or guidelines is that supported?...

 

I'm not sure why that's the question. You haven't given any evidence one way or the other to figure out what's what.

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Confused here? Is Fleder a pm or non-pm. I thought only pm's could make cache hides? and or get gps coords? Sure sounds like he/she is pm by the posts. I know this is a thread of deleted logs by the guy/gal based on non-logging and non-pm. If so why can't someone just delete all of the offending Fleder LIZZARD posts logs caches etc... He/she seems to be acting exactly like his supposed profile is ademently against. :rolleyes:

 

Nope, non-PM people can make hides and see coordinates UNLESS it is a PM-Only cache, then the coords will be hidden. Basically, this guy doesn't want to spend the money to be a PM, says he doesn't need what it brings, then bitches about not being able to get what the PM brings. And notice how much he's posted on this thread? Yeah, he likes to start incindiary threads then just watch them. Kind of like a pyro setting a dumpster on fire then hiding a block away, but still watching it. He kind of goes by the "any attention is good attention" motto, and he finds it easiest to get bad attention. Anyways, the guy thinks he's above the rules, and that's all I have to say about it.

Edited by HondaH8er
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Ummm, you might want to edit your post before you are introduced to an admin brick.

I'm surprised this thread has not been closed yet. I'm not sure if the original question is legit or not. If it is legit, the OP seems to have some deep resentment that he did not want to be explicit about. In any case, the thread has turned into a flame fest of the OP and is totally off topic.

 

To continue with the off topic post, to want to "punish" premium members by placing "non premium members only" caches is very, very bizarre.

 

And while we are at it, can I rant against puzzle caches I just cannot figure out, because it discriminates against me? :rolleyes:

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Despite the fact that I am a premium member, like you Fledermaus, I am frugal and can understand your decision to forgo the PM. What I don't understand is your resentment of the idea of paying for the membership. I don't see how the existence of PM caches takes anything away from you at all. Why does it upset you enough enough that you feel you have to rail against them? And if you don't like them, why attempt to log them in the first place?

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And if you don't like [PM caches], why attempt to log them in the first place?

It should be pointed out that the PM status of a cache is not noted in a Pocket Query. When you're out caching with a PQ downloaded into your GPS and/or PDA, there is no way to know that a particular cache is PM only. So if you're caching with a non-PM, you can't avoid those caches.

 

By the time the non-PM figures it out, he's at home, trying to log the find. At first the system won't let him, but he thinks "dang it I found it I'm going to log it" so he uses the backdoor (which TPTB are aware of and support).

 

But it should also be noted that according to TurtleFinder, the problem here was not the PM status of the finder, but rather that his name was not in the paper log at the cache site.

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Nope, ...
Ummm, you might want to edit your post before you are introduced to an admin brick.

 

I get what I get. I took out the names I called him, but I'm leaving the rest to stand. If the admins think I deserve a timeout, so be it, I will accept my fate with aplomb and grace and not a word of complaint.

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And if you don't like [PM caches], why attempt to log them in the first place?

It should be pointed out that the PM status of a cache is not noted in a Pocket Query. When you're out caching with a PQ downloaded into your GPS and/or PDA, there is no way to know that a particular cache is PM only. So if you're caching with a non-PM, you can't avoid those caches.

 

By the time the non-PM figures it out, he's at home, trying to log the find. At first the system won't let him, but he thinks "dang it I found it I'm going to log it" so he uses the backdoor (which TPTB are aware of and support).

And if you are using field notes, I don't think it could even be considered a back door as you'd be doing exactly the same thing as for non-PM caches.

 

--Marky

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And if you don't like [PM caches], why attempt to log them in the first place?

It should be pointed out that the PM status of a cache is not noted in a Pocket Query. When you're out caching with a PQ downloaded into your GPS and/or PDA, there is no way to know that a particular cache is PM only. So if you're caching with a non-PM, you can't avoid those caches.

 

By the time the non-PM figures it out, he's at home, trying to log the find. At first the system won't let him, but he thinks "dang it I found it I'm going to log it" so he uses the backdoor (which TPTB are aware of and support).

And if you are using field notes, I don't think it could even be considered a back door as you'd be doing exactly the same thing as for non-PM caches.

 

--Marky

 

My experience as a NPM is that some local caches started out as regular caches (when I download the coord's), and later became member-only caches when the owner upgraded his membership (when i got around to finding the cache.)

 

Fortunately, the cache owners have been gracious enough to allow me to back door my log. (Actually, they are really nice people -- they sometimes give me coord's to some of their member-only hides that are getting a little lonely.)

 

For that matter, there have even been a few member-only caches that have been opened up to everybody. Again, the issue is that since many, many cachers in our area are not premium members, MO caches start getting lonely.

 

This is supposed to be a friendly game people -- stay home if you can't play nice!

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PMOs are within their rights to delete non-PM logs on the caches. But, I've never run into that problem. In fact, when I was non-PM, several owners went out of their way to help me log their caches (including sending me their phone number so I could call to let them know when I was ready to log the cache.)

But that doesn't seem to be the case here. It seems that the OP did not sign the cache log! Even that would not normally cause a problem, depending. Perhaps, the problem might possibly be that the OP might have antagonized or alienated the cache owners? If that were the case, I could understand the cache owner deleting the log, upon determining that the OP did NOT sign the log. That comes under the guideline of 'deleting bogus finds.' Smile and the world smiles with you. Antagonize people, and they do not smile with you.

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Why does it upset you enough enough that you feel you have to rail against them? And if you don't like them, why attempt to log them in the first place?

 

I didn't think I would join this discussion, and did not the past few by the OP on the same subject, but this is exactly where I am left hanging. Why indeed?

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I'm really upset by this thread. It had the potential to turn into one of the classic threads. I expected the OP to continue to post wackiness and it to be closed down after 13 glorious pages in a few hours. Out of the ashes would arise catchphrases that we could use for years like the classic 'why does my post say Ringbone' and 'I accept your apology'.

 

This thread has really left me flat.

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Why does it upset you enough enough that you feel you have to rail against them? And if you don't like them, why attempt to log them in the first place?

 

I didn't think I would join this discussion, and did not the past few by the OP on the same subject, but this is exactly where I am left hanging. Why indeed?

 

TROLLL

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I may have misunderstood tttedzeins' post, but I thought that he was trying to answer Griz' and your questions, not ridiculing you for having the questions. I based this interpretation on post #5.

 

 

Yes, you beat me to it - I realized later that I wasn't pointed at us. I was in the process of deleting comments as yours was posted. Glad I didn't fly off the handle. Decided to delete the comments anyway even though they are now in the record.

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Rock on, Turtlefinder!!! Here are my thoughts:

 

What do you (Fledermaus) hope to gain by posting your complaints here? Do you really think anyone is going to agree with you? Most of us in Kitsap County have had some kind of negative experience with you. No wonder you went outside of the Northwest forums to plead your case. You know you won't find any sympathy there. I cannot possibly imagine what you get out of this. I also cannot understand any cacher that would even admit to caching with you. Not good.

 

I also have a history. "Someone" tried to have one of my caches removed from a business by telling the owner that kids were passing drugs to each other through my fake rock cache. Seriously? This person scared the heck out of the girls working there and they almost called the police on him. They didn't for a second believe what he was saying. Due to the description they gave us of the man, we knew who it was. This all happened after I commented on some of his nasty behavior in the past. We could write a book of the stuff this cacher has pulled.

 

I think the only thing we can do is make it clear that this isn't going to continue. This is a hobby/sport/addiction of pure fun for most of us. I personally enjoy finding caches and interacting with fellow cachers. When someone is mean-spirited and harassing, it takes away the enjoyment for everyone else. I am not intimidated by the bully attitude. If my containers come up missing, I will replace them. If you enjoy making puzzle caches that only a math genius can find, fine. If you want to hide a cache 50 ft. up in a tree with no branches, fine. If you want to hide a cache that no one can find and laugh at the DNF's, fine. If you don't find any enjoyment in caching except the hurting of fellow cachers, why are you here?

 

I say enough is enough. Take your hate and discontent and find another group of people to torment. I think this group is fed up with you and your antics.

 

Why do you have to be so evil? You are the reason I quit geocaching.

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Why do you have to be so evil? You are the reason I quit geocaching.
I'm surprised to find you hanging out in the geocaching forums, given that you've quit caching.

 

I wonder why a former cacher would come into the forums to resurrect a no-longer-active thread. Hmmmm.

Edited by sbell111
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Rock on, Turtlefinder!!! Here are my thoughts:

 

What do you (Fledermaus) hope to gain by posting your complaints here? Do you really think anyone is going to agree with you? Most of us in Kitsap County have had some kind of negative experience with you. No wonder you went outside of the Northwest forums to plead your case. You know you won't find any sympathy there. I cannot possibly imagine what you get out of this. I also cannot understand any cacher that would even admit to caching with you. Not good.

 

I also have a history. "Someone" tried to have one of my caches removed from a business by telling the owner that kids were passing drugs to each other through my fake rock cache. Seriously? This person scared the heck out of the girls working there and they almost called the police on him. They didn't for a second believe what he was saying. Due to the description they gave us of the man, we knew who it was. This all happened after I commented on some of his nasty behavior in the past. We could write a book of the stuff this cacher has pulled.

 

I think the only thing we can do is make it clear that this isn't going to continue. This is a hobby/sport/addiction of pure fun for most of us. I personally enjoy finding caches and interacting with fellow cachers. When someone is mean-spirited and harassing, it takes away the enjoyment for everyone else. I am not intimidated by the bully attitude. If my containers come up missing, I will replace them. If you enjoy making puzzle caches that only a math genius can find, fine. If you want to hide a cache 50 ft. up in a tree with no branches, fine. If you want to hide a cache that no one can find and laugh at the DNF's, fine. If you don't find any enjoyment in caching except the hurting of fellow cachers, why are you here?

 

I say enough is enough. Take your hate and discontent and find another group of people to torment. I think this group is fed up with you and your antics.

 

Why do you have to be so evil? You are the reason I quit geocaching.

 

Oh please, do tell. What did she do to make you quit? For some reason, I can't imagine her doing something so evil that it would make a person quit a sport. Besides, Snookie is probably one of the least evil persons I have ever talked with!! I would suggest that, instead of blaming other people for your insecurities, look inside yourself and figure out what is making you tick. Perhaps it is something in your own mind or personality that is causing your woes of your world to fall upon you.

Edited by TurtleFinder
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I'm really upset by this thread. It had the potential to turn into one of the classic threads. I expected the OP to continue to post wackiness and it to be closed down after 13 glorious pages in a few hours. Out of the ashes would arise catchphrases that we could use for years like the classic 'why does my post say Ringbone' and 'I accept your apology'.

 

This thread has really left me flat.

Well said, and I agree but see the post just below yours, that is post #64, as things are starting to look hopeful!

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Why do you have to be so evil? You are the reason I quit geocaching.
I'm surprised to find you hanging out in the geocaching forums, given that you've quit caching.

 

I wonder why a former cacher would come into the forums to resurrect a no-longer-active thread. Hmmmm.

Well said! :laughing::lol:;):D

 

I think that this thread should be named "Resurrection of the Trolls!"

 

It is almost as if an occult hand had reached down from above and moved the players like pawns upon some giant chessboard.

 

.

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It is almost as if an occult hand had reached down from above and moved the players like pawns upon some giant chessboard.

 

.

 

I do suddenly feel compelled to post here...not sure why, or which side I am taking, just can't take a chance to miss out on this truly historic thread that is going to change the geocaching world as we know it!

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As co-owner of some of these caches, I will take the opportunity to get the whole thing out there, but first, Fledermaus, let me ask you this. If you and a friend go to a movie, do you have your friend pay for the movie and then sneak you in through the back door so you can watch it for free? Or, more to the point, do you go with a friend to the YMCA, and after using their entire allotment of guest passes, have them sneak you into their paid-for-service so that you can use it for free? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that no, you would not. Yet you think it is ok to do it in this situation? The fact of the matter is, PMOC caches are “subscriber-only caches”. Quite literally, that means that only subscribers can take advantage of them. They are restricted to members who have paid to access them. What you want to be allowed to do is basically get first class airfare when you are only paying for coach. I’m sorry. But that is not how it works. The saying is “you get what you pay for” and you are getting what you pay for – access to all the caches on the site that are not restricted to subscriber only. If you want access to them, cough up the 3 bucks a month. If you don’t want to cough up the cash, then stop crying about the restriction. That restriction is an added benefit for people who pay to support the site and the sport.

 

Now, let’s share with the forum a little background information. The cache owner you are complaining about and you have a bit of history, don’t you? You got snide with that person and ended up being told to not contact him. You continued to do so, didn’t you? You even went so far as to create a fake email and email this person. You even put in this email that you created the new account because “Calculating that you may have blocked my other account, I have this to say:” Why would you write that? Because you had been told several times already to not contact this person. He was clear – “I shall not expect nor accept any further communication from you.” You engaged in a hostile onslaught of harassment against a fellow cacher because of your own personal issues. Since that time, he has not located any of your caches and has ignored any logs you have made on his.

 

Now, in regards to this particular situation; We, as in the cache owner and myself, realized that your log was on a PMOC. That led us to wonder how you were able to log a PMOC. Either you secretly had a PM or you were backdooring the site. We have since found out about the backdoor and now understand how you did it. We left your log. It was no big deal. However, the next day, we found out that you had not signed the actual log at that location. We went out to the cache, pulled the log and, upon visual inspection, saw that you had logged a cache that you were not entitled to log because you did not sign the log. The friend you were “with” signed, so it’s not like you couldn’t open the container, or didn’t have a pen, or any of the legitimate reasons for not signing and still claiming. It was, at that point, your log was deleted. Had your signature been on the logbook, your entry would have been left and we would have continued to get a chuckle out of the fact that a person who is so vehemently against “caching for the numbers” or against PMOC’s finds ways to find and log those caches anyhow. The fact is, you were deleted because of your failure to properly log the cache. Your other finds were deleted because of two reasons…one, your improper logging of caches (without actually signing the cache log) calls into question your credibility and the validity of ALL your finds, and two, they are subscriber only caches and you are not allowed to log/claim them. Pretty simple.

 

For a man who has NON-PREMIUM ONLY caches that specifically state that “your log will be deleted if you find this cache and are a premium member”, I find it extremely hypocritical of you to cry about the PMOC. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. And for somebody who has very vocally decried a local Challenge because it is most easily utilized by PMs, and have even gone so far as to state that you will delete any logs on your caches that are used for that Challenge “at my discretion”, you want to cry about not being allowed to log PMOC’s? Your sense of self-entitlement is amazing. Simply amazing.

 

May I also point out, you have not been deleted from any of our caches that are not PMOC, nor will you. When I change over my caches to PMOC, and after I verify that your signature is actually on my logbooks at those caches, your logs will not be removed because you validly found them. However, let it be known, if you are not a premium member and you log any of mine, or the cacher you are having an issue with’s premium caches, your log will be deleted. Had your prior contacts not been so disagreeable and harassing, this would not have been an issue. You could have cheated the system all you wanted. However, because of your own course of action, this is the result. Consider it my form of a geocaching restraining order.

 

I love to see a good But Whippin, especially when it is as well deserved as this one, nice job TurtleFinder way to put the guy in his place. :laughing:

 

Scubasonic

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