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Baked_Beans

Photos at earthcaches

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I have an EarthCache where I specified an alternate photo that would be acceptable. Take a photo of your gps next to a fossil at the site. Those that choose that option spend some time looking for them and it allows me to see many examples of the fossils.

I would prefer to see the cachers, but realize there are those that do not want their faces shown. My EarthCache won't change their minds on that subject, if they answer the questions and fulfill the other logging requirements, they have earned the smiley.

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I have an EarthCache where I specified an alternate photo that would be acceptable. Take a photo of your gps next to a fossil at the site. Those that choose that option spend some time looking for them and it allows me to see many examples of the fossils.

I would prefer to see the cachers, but realize there are those that do not want their faces shown. My EarthCache won't change their minds on that subject, if they answer the questions and fulfill the other logging requirements, they have earned the smiley.

 

After reading the above post and others, maybe we should lessen the photo requirement to just the site with GPSr being shown if the cacher wishes not to have their face shown. I know that we require the person to be in the pic but maybe we should loosen up! Marge and I all ready make all kinds of exceptions but I am thinking of changing the requirement to something like this:

NOTE: Please post a photo of you and your GP Sr with the EC (named) in the background. If you do not want to post a photo with your or others faces showing, please post a photo of your GPSr with the EC in the background.

 

Do you think this approach is feasible? Anyone got some better language? :ph34r:

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I have an EarthCache where I specified an alternate photo that would be acceptable. Take a photo of your gps next to a fossil at the site. Those that choose that option spend some time looking for them and it allows me to see many examples of the fossils.

I would prefer to see the cachers, but realize there are those that do not want their faces shown. My EarthCache won't change their minds on that subject, if they answer the questions and fulfill the other logging requirements, they have earned the smiley.

 

After reading the above post and others, maybe we should lessen the photo requirement to just the site with GPSr being shown if the cacher wishes not to have their face shown. I know that we require the person to be in the pic but maybe we should loosen up! Marge and I all ready make all kinds of exceptions but I am thinking of changing the requirement to something like this:

NOTE: Please post a photo of you and your GP Sr with the EC (named) in the background. If you do not want to post a photo with your or others faces showing, please post a photo of your GPSr with the EC in the background.

 

Do you think this approach is feasible? Anyone got some better language? :ph34r:

 

As for one who prefers the backside of a camera and who had to learn the outstretched arm approach to the self-portrait, while understanding the issue of not having faces in the photo. I think this is a very reasonable solution to the problem. I too have shown leniency on photos.

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I have an EarthCache where I specified an alternate photo that would be acceptable. Take a photo of your gps next to a fossil at the site. Those that choose that option spend some time looking for them and it allows me to see many examples of the fossils.

I would prefer to see the cachers, but realize there are those that do not want their faces shown. My EarthCache won't change their minds on that subject, if they answer the questions and fulfill the other logging requirements, they have earned the smiley.

 

After reading the above post and others, maybe we should lessen the photo requirement to just the site with GPSr being shown if the cacher wishes not to have their face shown. I know that we require the person to be in the pic but maybe we should loosen up! Marge and I all ready make all kinds of exceptions but I am thinking of changing the requirement to something like this:

NOTE: Please post a photo of you and your GP Sr with the EC (named) in the background. If you do not want to post a photo with your or others faces showing, please post a photo of your GPSr with the EC in the background.

 

Do you think this approach is feasible? Anyone got some better language? :ph34r:

 

As for one who prefers the backside of a camera and who had to learn the outstretched arm approach to the self-portrait, while understanding the issue of not having faces in the photo. I think this is a very reasonable solution to the problem. I too have shown leniency on photos.

 

Thanks GEO WALKER.

As you and others can see from all of my posts, I can change my mind (a little bit!) Seriously, I still believe in the photo requirement but maybe for the minority of cachers who do not want their face uploaded....we can give a little. Anyone got some improvement on the wording? :o

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I use different language on my ECs but here are two phrasings I use:

 

"Take and upload with your found it log, a photo of your team WITH your GPS (or your GPS alone) at a recognizable area within the marsh."

 

OR

 

"You must take and upload with your "Found it" log a photo of either the section of railroad ties, the factory ruins or the marl pits. The photo must include your GPS (and yourself as well if you are feeling frisky)."

 

I want a pic what's in it is secondary so long as there is a GPS and I can recognize the area.

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I don't require faces on my Earthcache just a photo with a specific formation in the background. I don't care if it is a hand with a GPS, but I want something in the photo with the item in the background. It can be your image or a GPS.

 

I usually cache alone, and the majority of the Earthcaches I have done have been ALONE... I have started to carry a Pink plastic dolphin with me, so when I need a photo I put the PinkDolphin into the photo so far it has been fine. Honestly if someone absolutely required my photo I just would not do their Earthcache. If I don't have my plastic dolphin with me it is a hand and a GPS and the required image in the background.

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I don't require faces on my Earthcache just a photo with a specific formation in the background. I don't care if it is a hand with a GPS, but I want something in the photo with the item in the background. It can be your image or a GPS.

 

I usually cache alone, and the majority of the Earthcaches I have done have been ALONE... I have started to carry a Pink plastic dolphin with me, so when I need a photo I put the PinkDolphin into the photo so far it has been fine. Honestly if someone absolutely required my photo I just would not do their Earthcache. If I don't have my plastic dolphin with me it is a hand and a GPS and the required image in the background.

 

I like the “signature character” idea. Most of my “self portraits” include me w/facial hair, sometimes a handle bar muzzy, sunglasses and a baseball cap so you don’t get see much anyway. Maybe I should find a Yosemite Sam Figure???

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I don't require faces on my Earthcache just a photo with a specific formation in the background. I don't care if it is a hand with a GPS, but I want something in the photo with the item in the background. It can be your image or a GPS.

 

I usually cache alone, and the majority of the Earthcaches I have done have been ALONE... I have started to carry a Pink plastic dolphin with me, so when I need a photo I put the PinkDolphin into the photo so far it has been fine. Honestly if someone absolutely required my photo I just would not do their Earthcache. If I don't have my plastic dolphin with me it is a hand and a GPS and the required image in the background.

 

Hey! I like this! Peak baggers frequently bring along an avatar to photograph to show that they were there. Finley Dolphin has been photographed at many 4000' peaks in the northeast. I think that Finley should start making appearances at EarthCaches!

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I don't require faces on my Earthcache just a photo with a specific formation in the background. I don't care if it is a hand with a GPS, but I want something in the photo with the item in the background. It can be your image or a GPS.

 

I usually cache alone, and the majority of the Earthcaches I have done have been ALONE... I have started to carry a Pink plastic dolphin with me, so when I need a photo I put the PinkDolphin into the photo so far it has been fine. Honestly if someone absolutely required my photo I just would not do their Earthcache. If I don't have my plastic dolphin with me it is a hand and a GPS and the required image in the background.

 

Hey! I like this! Peak baggers frequently bring along an avatar to photograph to show that they were there. Finley Dolphin has been photographed at many 4000' peaks in the northeast. I think that Finley should start making appearances at EarthCaches!

I agree! Finley is a fine fellow for find photo's!......... but I'm not lugging a catfish around :D

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I don't require faces on my Earthcache just a photo with a specific formation in the background. I don't care if it is a hand with a GPS, but I want something in the photo with the item in the background. It can be your image or a GPS.

 

I usually cache alone, and the majority of the Earthcaches I have done have been ALONE... I have started to carry a Pink plastic dolphin with me, so when I need a photo I put the PinkDolphin into the photo so far it has been fine. Honestly if someone absolutely required my photo I just would not do their Earthcache. If I don't have my plastic dolphin with me it is a hand and a GPS and the required image in the background.

 

Hey! I like this! Peak baggers frequently bring along an avatar to photograph to show that they were there. Finley Dolphin has been photographed at many 4000' peaks in the northeast. I think that Finley should start making appearances at EarthCaches!

 

The best part is since it is a Pink Dolphin how can anyone claim PinkDolphin is not in the photo...LOL (check out my gallery at GC.com and you will see some of the places PinkDolphin has been photographed).

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If I come across an Earthcache that requires a picture of myself I file a complaint @eartcache.org to have it archived.

The rules brought forth by earthcache.org require an educational element. I appreciate most people are unable to delevop a proper educational cache but this is the core requirement. Not funny pictures.

 

Only someone utterly ignorant of image manipulation, computer ot the intertubes can believe a photo on site proves anything.

 

At the same time the owner is bullying and violating the personal rights of the cacher but maybe that's the rationale behind the requirement...

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If I come across an Earthcache that requires a picture of myself I file a complaint @eartcache.org to have it archived.

The rules brought forth by earthcache.org require an educational element. I appreciate most people are unable to delevop a proper educational cache but this is the core requirement. Not funny pictures.

 

Only someone utterly ignorant of image manipulation, computer ot the intertubes can believe a photo on site proves anything.

 

At the same time the owner is bullying and violating the personal rights of the cacher but maybe that's the rationale behind the requirement...

While most ECers here require a photo that is secondary to the educational questions.

 

Your statement, "I appreciate most people are unable to develop a proper educational cache but this is the core requirement." is extremely categorical and a put down of "most" EarthCachers. You mention image manipulation, if a geocacher is that clever, so be it! We are not geopolice and certainly not bully's!

A few of your profile indicates that you have not found many ECs. Try some more and you will find out that ECers are not as dumb as you portray them! If you gave us a reasonable excuse to not use photos, we would probably grant exceptions. You need to settle down and smell the ECs and not indite the total EarthCaching community.

Take care and have a good caching day. Oops, it's probably night-time where you live so tomorrow, go get some more ECs. :o

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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If you gave us a reasonable excuse to not use photos, we would probably grant exceptions.

Please which one of the guidelines gives your that right?

Here is the link for your convenience: http://www.geosociety.org/earthcache/guidelines.htm

 

Do you have a reasonable excuse as to why your eartchcaches have more in common with a webcam cache than with earthcache guidelines?

What is your excuse for disrespecting peoples rights if they don't want their picture online? Especially if this is not set forth in the EC guidelines?

 

You inverse roles/who has to answer for himself here.

 

What's probably needed is a worth1000 like contest for earthcaches. If I still was a student I would sell "picture of yourself and elvis at cache XYZ" for 10$ each. Compared to the famous fat boy pics (http://www.nei.ch/gallery/v/diverses/famousfatboy/) it's easy.

 

@Konnarock Kid & Marge: I read a couple of your EC discriptions and the photo is not secondary to the questions be they educational or not.

I can also see from your profile and your comment that you believe quantities have meaning, weight and demand respect. A view you share with most if not all cachers that have a very high percentage of Tradis (85%! That's a record!) while having more than 1000 finds.

A few more of my profile and you'll see that I am not following quantity but the other q-word.

 

As said in my previous post: If I come across an "EC" that is really a photocache I pursue it's archival/replacement. I have just now tackled the 1st, let's see how that rolls.

 

EC.org has allowed you to publish caches that don't adhere 100% to their guidelines since they didn't assume you'd enforce the non-conformant bits. Enforcing pictures of people instead of the educational value does not only show disrespect of EC.org but also of peoples rights.

 

If you want pictures do a webcam cache.

 

If you want to prevent cheating forget about it. You can't. It may be of consolation that the cheater only cheats himself of the experience of the earthcache (or smell as you put it).

This is the same for all caches including tradis and mysteries. You can offer a nice experience but you can force no one. If someone wants to cheat they will find a way.

Any control measure (and I mean any) will only make things complicated for yourself and honest cachers (the majority I hope).

 

I know these are big words but I am currently developing a couple of earthcaches up to them.

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We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

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Photos prove that the visit did happen. Questions are there because you require it. Lets not cheapen the experience of earthcaches by passing around the answers so others can log a find without ever visiting the site.

 

What happens if the questions get too tough? Will geoaware remove the question portion as well?

 

Its the owner of the earthcache who should have the option if pictures should be there or not. If geoaware does decide to add to "guidelines" about photos I hope they follow the geocaching guidelines in regards to the cache owners right to police logs.

 

Just my two cents.

 

We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

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Aburningspear, you really need to cool off.

First of all, a reading of the guidelines doesn't forbid photos and as they are written, they are GUIDELINES not laws. The guidelines include many things but do not exclude many other. It is obvious that the vast majority of the EarthCaching do not agree with you.

When I say that the photo is secondary to the educational requirements it means that the educational requirements are primary because they are necessary for EC APPROVAL. It doesn't mean that the photo is unimportant or should I say less important to the EC developer! When a EC developer uploads photos of his/her EC on the cache page that also isn't required and/or is part of the guidelines but many do it. There are many examples of approaches EC developers take to their ECs that are not mentioned by the guidelines. Fonts, style, length (except total characters) , etc. are not covered so should they be banned too? In other words, guidelines may give a strong set of requirements but they don't limit or confine the developer!

As to quantities, the only meaning in them is that it gives experience, which you have none! You take an example of ONE and blow it up to a categorical imperative! A course in logic 101 will tell you that is where the argument is lost.

You still haven't addressed my quote of you which is, ""I appreciate MOST people are unable to develop a proper educational cache but this is the core requirement." Do you even realize what you said? A gross categorical condemnation of most of the EarthCaching community. Where do you get off stating that most of us are clueless? That is pure ego.

I certainly would have been willing to understand and even give sympathy to your argument if you were less emotional and refrained from condemning most of the EC community. You lose any credible argument when you make such a blanket statement!

Speaking of "peoples rights", why don't you exercise your right of boycotting all ECs that have a photo requirement. In other words, quoting one of our previous First Ladies, "just say no!"

Good luck on achieving the archiving the EC that you so abhor! :o

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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Photos prove that the visit did happen. Questions are there because you require it. Lets not cheapen the experience of earthcaches by passing around the answers so others can log a find without ever visiting the site.

 

What happens if the questions get too tough? Will geoaware remove the question portion as well?

 

Its the owner of the earthcache who should have the option if pictures should be there or not. If geoaware does decide to add to "guidelines" about photos I hope they follow the geocaching guidelines in regards to the cache owners right to police logs.

 

Just my two cents.

 

We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

 

I couldn't agree more with wishing on a star. Your two cents are worth much more!

As several have said before, Geoaware you will darn near ruin EarthCaching if you ban the photo. Don't you know that with puzzle and mystery caches, the answers are very often passed around. Why hike 12 miles if your buddy has the answers?

You want cachers to have an educational experience so don't you want to know they were actually there to have the educational experience? Absent a log to sign, like other geocaches, that is one of the things what makes ECs are different from others.

wishing on a star's point regarding "the owners right to police logs" should not be so readily dismissed because that is an overall part of the guidelines of geocaching and is should not excluded from EarthCaches! Here is a direct quote form Groundspeak's guidelines,

 

"The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that APPEAR to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.'

 

I know that some cache owners of other caches have gone overboard when deleting logs. But guess what? Groundspeak always comes down in favor of the cache owner. Groundspeak always stays out of arguments regarding deletion of logs. Because of that, while I may or may not agree with some log deletions, I believe that GSA should not become involved with log deletions. You shouldn't have the option of determining if a log is deleted or not. The cache owner this exclusive right per Groundspeak. If a traditional cache owner believes, right or wrong, that a cacher has not visited the cache, he/she can delete the log. The "proof"of a visit to a traditional cache is the physical log being signed. With ECs, the proof can be the photo. Sure, photos can be doctored but so what? I surmise that very few have this skill!

We have been down this path before so should the vast majority be declared wrong by a change in the guidelines to forbid photos? One or two squeaky wheels shouldn't get all the grease!

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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I look at it this way: If you don't really go there, you are only cheating yourself. I've been there. I saw it for myself, I learned something, and I enjoyed myself. That's not to say I let obvious fake logs go without acting on them. I just don't spend my days playing CSI detective looking to see if people lie and hoping to catch them at it.

 

I haven't placed any caches yet, but that exactly how I feel...

 

I'm not going to waste what little pree time I have trying to be a detective... If you wanna cheat, Cheat... Your only cheating you.... I enjoy being outside and the challenge of finding the cache... The fact that I got off my couch and saw a pretty cool area or something new that I would not have normally is just a bonus...

 

I'm sorta impressed just by the sheer number of new parks that I've found in my area or areas that I know...

 

If someone wants to cheat and inflate their stats, I guess so be it...

 

If they hurry up and mark everything as found then they get a great big found # and are done... They'ed have nothing else left to enjoy about the hobby... Their bad...

 

On a side note,

 

I really wanna thank everyone again that has took the time and effort to place a cache and do the online work to make it avalible!!! Without you all,, this would not be....

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I look at it this way: If you don't really go there, you are only cheating yourself. I've been there. I saw it for myself, I learned something, and I enjoyed myself. That's not to say I let obvious fake logs go without acting on them. I just don't spend my days playing CSI detective looking to see if people lie and hoping to catch them at it.

 

I haven't placed any caches yet, but that exactly how I feel...

 

I'm not going to waste what little pree time I have trying to be a detective... If you wanna cheat, Cheat... Your only cheating you.... I enjoy being outside and the challenge of finding the cache... The fact that I got off my couch and saw a pretty cool area or something new that I would not have normally is just a bonus...

 

I'm sorta impressed just by the sheer number of new parks that I've found in my area or areas that I know...

 

If someone wants to cheat and inflate their stats, I guess so be it...

 

If they hurry up and mark everything as found then they get a great big found # and are done... They'ed have nothing else left to enjoy about the hobby... Their bad...

 

On a side note,

 

I really wanna thank everyone again that has took the time and effort to place a cache and do the online work to make it avalible!!! Without you all,, this would not be....

Thanks for your well said note!

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I look at it this way: If you don't really go there, you are only cheating yourself. I've been there. I saw it for myself, I learned something, and I enjoyed myself. That's not to say I let obvious fake logs go without acting on them. I just don't spend my days playing CSI detective looking to see if people lie and hoping to catch them at it.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

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Do you have a reasonable excuse as to why your eartchcaches have more in common with a webcam cache than with earthcache guidelines?

What is your excuse for disrespecting peoples rights if they don't want their picture online? Especially if this is not set forth in the EC guidelines?

 

 

As said in my previous post: If I come across an "EC" that is really a photocache I pursue it's archival/replacement. I have just now tackled the 1st, let's see how that rolls.

 

EC.org has allowed you to publish caches that don't adhere 100% to their guidelines since they didn't assume you'd enforce the non-conformant bits. Enforcing pictures of people instead of the educational value does not only show disrespect of EC.org but also of peoples rights.

 

If you want pictures do a webcam cache.

 

If you want to prevent cheating forget about it. You can't. It may be of consolation that the cheater only cheats himself of the experience of the earthcache (or smell as you put it).

This is the same for all caches including tradis and mysteries. You can offer a nice experience but you can force no one. If someone wants to cheat they will find a way.

Any control measure (and I mean any) will only make things complicated for yourself and honest cachers (the majority I hope).

 

I know these are big words but I am currently developing a couple of earthcaches up to them.

 

Why don't you put your "money where your mouth is" and go through the hassle of creating your own valid earthcaches. You talk a great game about what an earthcache should or shouldn't be, but so far you don't own any.

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...But seriously, what do you think? Is it okay to ask people to take such photos?...

 

It's an ALR. Those were banned.

 

That said if they truly want my mug in a shot, they can have it. A nice dot on the horizon 500 yards out. Yup, that's me waving.

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...Please which one of the guidelines gives your that right?

...

 

That would be the guidelines that assignes owners the responsiblity of ownership. Owners cache, owners rules. The listing guidlines set forth criteria for lising on this site. Everthing outside those specific criteria are owners discression. The punishment for failure to "comply" with guidlines is merely haveing your listing removed from this site. It's not a lost of ownership of the cache.

 

That said. See my post above about a recent change in guidelines that may or may not apply to Earth Caches. At this time only Challenge caches were excepted, but Earth Caches may have completely independant listing criteria.

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...Please which one of the guidelines gives your that right?

...

 

That would be the guidelines that assignes owners the responsibility of ownership. Owners cache, owners rules. The listing guidlines set forth criteria for lising on this site. Everthing outside those specific criteria are owners discression. The punishment for failure to "comply" with guidlines is merely haveing your listing removed from this site. It's not a lost of ownership of the cache.

 

That said. See my post above about a recent change in guidelines that may or may not apply to Earth Caches. At this time only Challenge caches were excepted, but Earth Caches may have completely independant listing criteria.

Thanks Knight. Groundspeak doesn't claim ownership of any geocache! The owner is responsible for 'their' cache.

That is exactly what I was referring to in my earlier post. You are absolutely right about ALR caches becoming a no, no. EarthCaches, since they do not have a 'box' to find are allowed to have ALR type requirements so as to prove the cacher actually visited the EC. Technically, they are requirements to be done after the cache is found just like ALRs but are grandfathered because of their uniqueness.

P.S. I would like to see that mug shot from 500 yards out. Don't forget, while the image blurs a little bit, the old zoom works fairly well.

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Do you have a reasonable excuse as to why your eartchcaches have more in common with a webcam cache than with earthcache guidelines?

What is your excuse for disrespecting peoples rights if they don't want their picture online? Especially if this is not set forth in the EC guidelines?

 

 

As said in my previous post: If I come across an "EC" that is really a photocache I pursue it's archival/replacement. I have just now tackled the 1st, let's see how that rolls.

 

EC.org has allowed you to publish caches that don't adhere 100% to their guidelines since they didn't assume you'd enforce the non-conformant bits. Enforcing pictures of people instead of the educational value does not only show disrespect of EC.org but also of peoples rights.

 

If you want pictures do a webcam cache.

 

If you want to prevent cheating forget about it. You can't. It may be of consolation that the cheater only cheats himself of the experience of the earthcache (or smell as you put it).

This is the same for all caches including tradis and mysteries. You can offer a nice experience but you can force no one. If someone wants to cheat they will find a way.

Any control measure (and I mean any) will only make things complicated for yourself and honest cachers (the majority I hope).

 

I know these are big words but I am currently developing a couple of earthcaches up to them.

 

Why don't you put your "money where your mouth is" and go through the hassle of creating your own valid earthcaches. You talk a great game about what an earthcache should or shouldn't be, but so far you don't own any.

I totally agree with Kit Fox. Rather you like it or not, experience counts. It never ceases to amaze me how often people sound off on this forum and without having done it!

Regarding cheating, I too don't give a tinkers dadgum if someone wants to inflate their stats. My concern is for the honest cachers who do go to our caches. I honor those who do it right by insisting others follow their examples and not cheat. Ninety nine percent of those who do go to our ECs don't have a problem so why should we bend to a very small minority. I know that in this country, it is almost not politically correct to have the "majority rule" but once in a while it ought to count! Speaking of majorities, look at the facts, most EC developers require a photo, are they all wrong? Yes, we have sound educational questions but the photo is important from another standpoint. Proof of visitation cannot be found in just answering the questions. If you want to take the time to photoshop, have at it, but to knowingly allow someone to not answer questions and/or not to upload a photo isn't fair to the vast majority of geocachers who are above board and do it right!

P.S. I want to repeat my quote from Groundspeak's guidelines which, in my humble opinion, trumps everything else! ""The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that APPEAR to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements." The owner or in the case of EarthCaches, the developer makes the decision to delete or not delete!

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

It sounds like to me that Geoaware is coming mighty close to assuming ownership for the caches. I don't believe the folks at Groundspeak will allow that. I hear tell they want to cut lose earthcaching anyway so that would only give them ammunition to do so!

Most earthcachers are not disappointed why should you be? Go ahead an change the guidelines and remove the photo but nothing will happen except earthcaching being really messed up! If somebody changes a requirement after you apprve the cache and the requirement is nuts, then make them change it or archive! Otherwise, let the owners keep reasonable requirements and keep out! Thank you.

Edited by mtmanva2

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Do you have a reasonable excuse as to why your eartchcaches have more in common with a webcam cache than with earthcache guidelines?

What is your excuse for disrespecting peoples rights if they don't want their picture online? Especially if this is not set forth in the EC guidelines?

 

 

As said in my previous post: If I come across an "EC" that is really a photocache I pursue it's archival/replacement. I have just now tackled the 1st, let's see how that rolls.

 

EC.org has allowed you to publish caches that don't adhere 100% to their guidelines since they didn't assume you'd enforce the non-conformant bits. Enforcing pictures of people instead of the educational value does not only show disrespect of EC.org but also of peoples rights.

 

If you want pictures do a webcam cache.

 

If you want to prevent cheating forget about it. You can't. It may be of consolation that the cheater only cheats himself of the experience of the earthcache (or smell as you put it).

This is the same for all caches including tradis and mysteries. You can offer a nice experience but you can force no one. If someone wants to cheat they will find a way.

Any control measure (and I mean any) will only make things complicated for yourself and honest cachers (the majority I hope).

 

I know these are big words but I am currently developing a couple of earthcaches up to them.

 

Why don't you put your "money where your mouth is" and go through the hassle of creating your own valid earthcaches. You talk a great game about what an earthcache should or shouldn't be, but so far you don't own any.

 

Way to go Mr. Fox. Ain't instant experts a big help?????????

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I think that photos can be a part of the educational experience -- I have asked that visitors post a photo showing a particular formation not simply to show that they have been to a spot, but to focus their attention on a geological feature that I want people to see. Because of that, I do not limit shots to pictures that show the visitor. And I would prefer that people not submit the one-handed type of shots that were often used for locationless logs. I hope that the photos will enhance the education, not get in the way of it.

 

A number of earthcaches were an important part of a trip that we took -- some had photo requirements, some did not. It was a little tricky when the photo requirements were posted separate from the logging questions. But I generally take a lot of pictures of an earthcache site in any event -- either because the site is photogenic or to help me remember (or find) some of the answers when the cache refers to charts or diagrams that are not on my pda or gpsr.

 

Of course, during one part of our trip the camera somehow lost several pictures that I was certain had been taken. Fortunately, none of these involved an earthcache logging requirement and I was able to remember the answers for the virtuals.

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As I pointed out before, If the EC owners allow for a picture situation that doesn't involve faces, then there wouldn't be such a big problem. catsnfish gave an example of one possibility of a 'proof.'

 

Before anyone wants to take another shot at me for coming in on the side of no faces, please note that I HAVE my pictures up on every Earthcache that I have been to, and my Earthcache that is active asks for a picture, but you being in that picture is optional, however I do encourage a person or some item that makes it clear this was done for the earthcache.

 

What this whole thread has turned into is two very entrenched sides, each unwilling to come to a peaceful agreement. We've got people trying to kill EC's and others defending smiles in pictures over everything else.

 

Seriouly, EC's were designed to be educational. So can we please come to an agreement of how to keep them educational (for the non-picture side) and come up with a way that we can ALL agree is acceptable to show proof of visit for those who DON'T want their face in the picture?

 

I mean, we could have pictures with GPS's, signs with geocacher names on them, maybe a signature item/stuffed animal/etc?

 

Yes, answers could be passed around. But, what stops people now for signing more than one name on a cache and letting that other person claim the cache? Everyone agrees that signing the log is acceptable for regular caches. Even then I can still come up with a way to cheat, albeit requiring assistance...which is what I feel that some people worry about the EC's.

 

Point of all of this...EC's are a different type of beast. Yes, they are a little different, and yes, everyone has their own opinion about them. but due to the nature of them, geoaware DOES have a say in this, regardless of what either side believes on this matter. I think it might be in EVERYONE's interest to work with geoaware on this issue, instead of protesting caches and causing a pseudo flame war on an issue that is becoming stickier than it needs to be.

 

Now if you disagree with something I said here, that's fine. All I ask is that you respect my opinion, don't take snarky pot shots at me, and try to work towards an agreeable situation. If you don't like an idea I mentioned, then suggest an alternate. You might have a better idea than I do.

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We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

(Bold and italics are mine for emphasis)

 

We seem to be missing the point here people. The point is not whether or not a photo should be part of the logging requirement but what type of photo is required. You don't need a photo of someones face to prove they visited the cache or not. Wouldn't a pic of a GPSr, displaying the coords at GZ do just as well? Is that any easier to photoshop than a head shot? My guess is not much at best. Wouldn't a unique photo of some sort, taken at GZ suffice just as well? If someone wants that smiley that bad to go through all the trouble of manipulating an image enough to fake having been there, they deserve the smiley. I have developed one EC on my own and share credit on three others and have uncredited work on a couple more. Some of these ask for a photo. Some don't. Would I delete a log just because somebody didn't upload a pic from GZ? Only if I was sure that the person didn't actually visit the site and I would have to be sure. The learning activities associated with my/our caches are such that, in most cases, the photo isn't necessary if the activities are done. You can tell from the answers if someone was actually there. Sure, someone could lift the answers from a previous log or from the web but I don't really care. If they want to cheat, say it with me, they're only cheating themselves.

 

I feel that to mandate a face shot is egocentric, controlling, and manipulative and to delete someone's legitimate log because you didn't get the kind of picture you demand is childish and vindictive. Yeah I know. It's your cache and your rules and until Geoaware changes the guidelines, you can continue to be petulant and uncompromising, making more work for yourself and making what should be a fun learning experience a bit of frustration and drudgery for those that don't adhere to you rigid guidelines. I thought the whole idea behind this EarthCaching thing was to bring more people to learn about the earth we all share, not make people jump through hoops.

 

In closing I'll just say this. If you don't want to have your face posted on the web, avoid those caches that require you to put your face on them. To those of you who are so adamant about having exactly what you require in an image, lighten up. It's only a game. Play. Have fun.

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My opinion is this: if a picture of my dog at the site doesn't sufficiently prove I was there in the mind of the developer, then I don't really want to play his or her game. I will appreciate the trip to the location and any learning I received, but...

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My opinion is this: if a picture of my dog at the site doesn't sufficiently prove I was there in the mind of the developer, then I don't really want to play his or her game.

 

Dogs would always count with me. Except, perhaps, for the earthcache in part of a park where dogs are not allowed. Then it would be a tough one since I take dog regulations seriously when I am out with mine.

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My opinion is this: if a picture of my dog at the site doesn't sufficiently prove I was there in the mind of the developer, then I don't really want to play his or her game.

 

Dogs would always count with me. Except, perhaps, for the earthcache in part of a park where dogs are not allowed. Then it would be a tough one since I take dog regulations seriously when I am out with mine.

 

There is that. I wouldn't have my dog with me for that one. Then we'd have to go for a camera balanced somewhere, set the timer and run shot.

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My opinion is this: if a picture of my dog at the site doesn't sufficiently prove I was there in the mind of the developer, then I don't really want to play his or her game. I will appreciate the trip to the location and any learning I received, but...

As a dyed-in-the-wool dog lover and rescuer, all our dogs are members of our family therefore if you have a dog, his/her photos would be great! :(

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617a9e76-e17b-401a-bfb4-b1b1f8cff5db.jpg

 

Finley Dolphin finds another interesting EarthCache. One of these days, he'll get his own Geocaching account... :(

I hope it was an EC that had water. Please don't leave him out of the water for long. :lol:

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As I pointed out before, If the EC owners allow for a picture situation that doesn't involve faces, then there wouldn't be such a big problem. catsnfish gave an example of one possibility of a 'proof.'

 

Before anyone wants to take another shot at me for coming in on the side of no faces, please note that I HAVE my pictures up on every Earthcache that I have been to, and my Earthcache that is active asks for a picture, but you being in that picture is optional, however I do encourage a person or some item that makes it clear this was done for the earthcache.

 

What this whole thread has turned into is two very entrenched sides, each unwilling to come to a peaceful agreement. We've got people trying to kill EC's and others defending smiles in pictures over everything else.

 

Seriouly, EC's were designed to be educational. So can we please come to an agreement of how to keep them educational (for the non-picture side) and come up with a way that we can ALL agree is acceptable to show proof of visit for those who DON'T want their face in the picture?

 

I mean, we could have pictures with GPS's, signs with geocacher names on them, maybe a signature item/stuffed animal/etc?

 

Yes, answers could be passed around. But, what stops people now for signing more than one name on a cache and letting that other person claim the cache? Everyone agrees that signing the log is acceptable for regular caches. Even then I can still come up with a way to cheat, albeit requiring assistance...which is what I feel that some people worry about the EC's.

 

Point of all of this...EC's are a different type of beast. Yes, they are a little different, and yes, everyone has their own opinion about them. but due to the nature of them, geoaware DOES have a say in this, regardless of what either side believes on this matter. I think it might be in EVERYONE's interest to work with geoaware on this issue, instead of protesting caches and causing a pseudo flame war on an issue that is becoming stickier than it needs to be.

 

Now if you disagree with something I said here, that's fine. All I ask is that you respect my opinion, don't take snarky pot shots at me, and try to work towards an agreeable situation. If you don't like an idea I mentioned, then suggest an alternate. You might have a better idea than I do.

 

We also plaster our faces on EarthCaches logs that we visit. But I am fully aware that many people refuse to post identifiable photographs on the internet. There can be alternate solutions such as the fossil pic Ashallond is referring to, and personally I think using avatars such as Finley Dolphin is a great idea. I would be very happy to see those type pics on my EC's.

What we really need to remember is that what we want to accomplish is to have people visit the site and to enjoy and learn from it, and not to force something they are not comfortable with. If there is an acceptable non face alternative photo that can be specified on the cache page then this problem would go away.

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@Konnarock Kid & Marge: You are not the EarthCaching Community and you don't speak for the vast majority of the EarthCaching Community. You are obviously ignoring geoaware though.

Otherwise your post has basically nothing to do with mine, so pardon me if I just ignore it.

 

@DeRock & The Psychic Cacher: Did you even read your own link?

 

@wishing_on_a_star: What happens if the questions get too tough? Will geoaware remove the question portion as well?

Basically the questions or rather "educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site" is the only logging requirement. Or simply put: The questions stay.

 

@Kit Fox: Give it some time. I have admitted myself that these where quite big word, hadn't I? Developing an Earthcache with an educational task that is neither to difficult nor easy enough accomplish with 5 minutes in wikipedia is not easy. If I did Photocaches I'd be only hampered by my speed of typing. "Hop through the ring of fire at the prescribed coords and have a picture taken in the process. Please ensure that you wear a funny hat and that the coords are visible in your GPS."

 

@Erickson: I do think that photos of the site and/or particular events that may have happened on-site are indeed helping the educational task and/or the cache presentation.

 

@solo63137, Neos2, Neos 1, Ashallond, tzipora, catsnfish, Harry Dolphin: I couldn't agree more with you.

 

There seems to be some kind of consensus in this thread at least that's pointing to allow a picture of an avatar, four legged family member, GPS or special formation on site.

Those EC owners that own caches with picture-of-the-cacher-requirement that voiced their opinion so far seem to be inclined to take a replacement out of the list above. Possible going along with some kind of excuse as to why a picture of themselves is not possible. (Since you have to contact the owner anyway to gain log permission this is just a matter of curtesy from my POV.)

 

I can absolutey live with that!

 

Some EC owner actually follow that approach and some don't. Some wouldn't even allow people to log their visit even though they have pictures showing them on site but the GPSr is missing in the picture (on an absolutely unique site).

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Notice: Kodak just announced that 35 mm film will no longer be manufactured! I guess my Brownie Hawkeye will have to be shelved and the photo requirements modified.

For now on when visiting one of our ECs, please bring a CANVAS and OIL PAINTS.

Make sure that your painting includes you with your GPS and the appropriate geological feature in the background. Please limit your color selections to those colors of the rainbow. Send said oil painting to the EC developer (postage paid) and it will be entered into a local art contest. Depending on the judges award i.e 1st, 2nd or 3rd place, then we will then allow a find on our EC!

P.S. You may or may not paint your face with a beard and/or dark sun glasses!

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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@Konnarock Kid & Marge: You are not the EarthCaching Community and you don't speak for the vast majority of the EarthCaching Community. You are obviously ignoring geoaware though.

Otherwise your post has basically nothing to do with mine, so pardon me if I just ignore it.

 

@DeRock & The Psychic Cacher: Did you even read your own link?

 

@wishing_on_a_star: What happens if the questions get too tough? Will geoaware remove the question portion as well?

Basically the questions or rather "educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site" is the only logging requirement. Or simply put: The questions stay.

 

@Kit Fox: Give it some time. I have admitted myself that these where quite big word, hadn't I? Developing an Earthcache with an educational task that is neither to difficult nor easy enough accomplish with 5 minutes in wikipedia is not easy. If I did Photocaches I'd be only hampered by my speed of typing. "Hop through the ring of fire at the prescribed coords and have a picture taken in the process. Please ensure that you wear a funny hat and that the coords are visible in your GPS."

 

@Erickson: I do think that photos of the site and/or particular events that may have happened on-site are indeed helping the educational task and/or the cache presentation.

 

@solo63137, Neos2, Neos 1, Ashallond, tzipora, catsnfish, Harry Dolphin: I couldn't agree more with you.

 

There seems to be some kind of consensus in this thread at least that's pointing to allow a picture of an avatar, four legged family member, GPS or special formation on site.

Those EC owners that own caches with picture-of-the-cacher-requirement that voiced their opinion so far seem to be inclined to take a replacement out of the list above. Possible going along with some kind of excuse as to why a picture of themselves is not possible. (Since you have to contact the owner anyway to gain log permission this is just a matter of curtesy from my POV.)

 

I can absolutey live with that!

 

Some EC owner actually follow that approach and some don't. Some wouldn't even allow people to log their visit even though they have pictures showing them on site but the GPSr is missing in the picture (on an absolutely unique site).

My definition of a community is a group of people with common interests who either work together to achieve common goals or support each other as individuals to achieve those goals. Respect should be shown for the individuals in this community, whether based on experience or because there is a desire to accomplish those goals.

One of the aspects that I find compelling about the EarthCaching community is the enthusiasm we share for the wonders and everyday features or processes that these caches highlight. This can be found in someone's first EC log or in a developers umpteenth description.

It is obvious that you also have an enthusiasm for EC's but you have introduced yourself into the community as a burning spear intent upon destruction (archiving) upon EarthCaches that do not fit your view of how they should be logged and you continued to insult and disrespect the community as a whole. You belittled the experience of developers because you have no experience developing EarthCaches. While you bring up a valid point in regards to how you personally feel regarding identifiable photo's of yourself, you do so by accusing those that require such photo's as a bully and someone intent upon violating your rights.

This forum and this topic was intended for the respectful discussion and exploration of the photo requirements. I believe that this topic would have progressed to the point and apparent consensus you have reached above without the disrespect that has been shown to the community. Forums are for the discussion of differing opinions but when those come as attacks, then defense and counter-attack are given instead of trying to reach a consensus.

Passionate opinions can be shared and debated. A community can support each other but without respect there really is no community and no one willing to see others opinions to improve or address issues.

Now back on topic for this thread, I have 2 EarthCaches that were published this week where I require a "photo of yourself, an avatar, or your gps" to log the EarthCache in addition to the task or questions to answer. Neither were originally written that way and the phrase was added due to the respectful portions of discussion in this topic.

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@Konnarock Kid & Marge: You are not the EarthCaching Community and you don't speak for the vast majority of the EarthCaching Community. You are obviously ignoring geoaware though.

Otherwise your post has basically nothing to do with mine, so pardon me if I just ignore it.

 

@DeRock & The Psychic Cacher: Did you even read your own link?

 

@wishing_on_a_star: What happens if the questions get too tough? Will geoaware remove the question portion as well?

Basically the questions or rather "educational task that relates to the Earth science at the site" is the only logging requirement. Or simply put: The questions stay.

 

@Kit Fox: Give it some time. I have admitted myself that these where quite big word, hadn't I? Developing an Earthcache with an educational task that is neither to difficult nor easy enough accomplish with 5 minutes in wikipedia is not easy. If I did Photocaches I'd be only hampered by my speed of typing. "Hop through the ring of fire at the prescribed coords and have a picture taken in the process. Please ensure that you wear a funny hat and that the coords are visible in your GPS."

 

@Erickson: I do think that photos of the site and/or particular events that may have happened on-site are indeed helping the educational task and/or the cache presentation.

 

@solo63137, Neos2, Neos 1, Ashallond, tzipora, catsnfish, Harry Dolphin: I couldn't agree more with you.

 

There seems to be some kind of consensus in this thread at least that's pointing to allow a picture of an avatar, four legged family member, GPS or special formation on site.

Those EC owners that own caches with picture-of-the-cacher-requirement that voiced their opinion so far seem to be inclined to take a replacement out of the list above. Possible going along with some kind of excuse as to why a picture of themselves is not possible. (Since you have to contact the owner anyway to gain log permission this is just a matter of curtesy from my POV.)

 

I can absolutey live with that!

 

Some EC owner actually follow that approach and some don't. Some wouldn't even allow people to log their visit even though they have pictures showing them on site but the GPSr is missing in the picture (on an absolutely unique site).

My definition of a community is a group of people with common interests who either work together to achieve common goals or support each other as individuals to achieve those goals. Respect should be shown for the individuals in this community, whether based on experience or because there is a desire to accomplish those goals.

One of the aspects that I find compelling about the EarthCaching community is the enthusiasm we share for the wonders and everyday features or processes that these caches highlight. This can be found in someone's first EC log or in a developers umpteenth description.

It is obvious that you also have an enthusiasm for EC's but you have introduced yourself into the community as a burning spear intent upon destruction (archiving) upon EarthCaches that do not fit your view of how they should be logged and you continued to insult and disrespect the community as a whole. You belittled the experience of developers because you have no experience developing EarthCaches. While you bring up a valid point in regards to how you personally feel regarding identifiable photo's of yourself, you do so by accusing those that require such photo's as a bully and someone intent upon violating your rights.

This forum and this topic was intended for the respectful discussion and exploration of the photo requirements. I believe that this topic would have progressed to the point and apparent consensus you have reached above without the disrespect that has been shown to the community. Forums are for the discussion of differing opinions but when those come as attacks, then defense and counter-attack are given instead of trying to reach a consensus.

Passionate opinions can be shared and debated. A community can support each other but without respect there really is no community and no one willing to see others opinions to improve or address issues.

Now back on topic for this thread, I have 2 EarthCaches that were published this week where I require a "photo of yourself, an avatar, or your gps" to log the EarthCache in addition to the task or questions to answer. Neither were originally written that way and the phrase was added due to the respectful portions of discussion in this topic.

Extremely well put.

Maybe that's why you are in the publishing business.

I must offer the group an apology for when I perceive a frontal attack I fire back. I know this is not the best of habits. I don't care if we disagree but when it gets personal or a group is belittled then my talons are flared. Trolling, rubbing fellow cachers noses in the mud and personal attacks seem too common place in most forums and that is sad.

You can tell me you do not like posting photos and I'll understand. You can tell me that EC pages are too long and I'll understand. You can even tell me that you don't prefer ECs and I'll understand. You can tell me that you don't care for any of my ECs and I'll understand but if you start with ECs are stupid or we don't know enough to write educated questions or start trolling or any other such dramatics then you are not after a healthy dialogue but are after a fight and are not interested in communication!

Catsnfish used the key word........RESPECT! When you begin with showing disrespect it's awfully hard to earn what catsnfish mentioned! What was that word again, oh yes......RESPECT! Thanks.

 

P.S. I was reviewing earlier posts and reread something I said,

"Thanks GEO WALKER.

As you and others can see from all of my posts, I can change my mind (a little bit!) Seriously, I still believe in the photo requirement but maybe for the minority of cachers who do not want their face uploaded....we can give a little."

 

When the dialogue is civil, and I use myself as an example, then minds can be changed. But, when the posts become nasty and personal, previously held positions become hardened and are therefore not subject to a lot of change. Maybe it's not right but that they way we are made!

Edited by Konnarock Kid & Marge

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We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

Yep...

 

On the Earthcaches I have put together...I welcome seeing photos just like any other cache I have...but I do not require it. I agree with the statement above (and mentioned early)...

 

Photos are merely a secondary thing and add to the experience/story you may decide to share with others but certainly should not be a deciding factor about logs...

 

If you want to verify someone isn't "cheating" than make your questions match the area so that answers can actually only be found on-site...

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We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

 

Full Ack

 

I'm from Germany and just experiencing this issue.

Both of our team are very aware of NOT putting our faces on the web.

I would very much like to have rules for this game which appreciate everybodies right of informational freedom (which we are giving away partially trough logging ANY Cache = > movement patterns), and as I do want to play this game with all the caches in the vicinity, I would very much to be assured that logs don't get deleted on the basis that there is no face, even if I proof it trough the otherwise typical 'hand & gpsr at the site' photo.

 

Therefore please go ahead an clearify the guidelines for ECs

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We are seriously considering changing the EarthCache guidelines to remove any discussion about the requirement to have a photo to log.

 

We believe that it should NOT be a logging requirement to have a photograph of peoples faces to be able to log. Photos add to the experience, but should not be the deciding factor of a log is allowed or not.

 

We are very disappointed that this is an issue with some EC developers.

 

Full Ack

 

I'm from Germany and just experiencing this issue.

Both of our team are very aware of NOT putting our faces on the web.

I would very much like to have rules for this game which appreciate everybodies right of informational freedom (which we are giving away partially trough logging ANY Cache = > movement patterns), and as I do want to play this game with all the caches in the vicinity, I would very much to be assured that logs don't get deleted on the basis that there is no face, even if I proof it trough the otherwise typical 'hand & gpsr at the site' photo.

 

Therefore please go ahead an clearify the guidelines for ECs

 

I certainly don't believe the guidelines need changing and/or clarifying because a small minority of cachers have objections to the 'face' photo. In our case, and I think this would apply to most EC developers, just ask if you have serious objections and you will be accommodated. We have never deleted a log when asked if another photo can be substituted the 'face' photo...................but then again, we have never been asked! As to "everybodies right", you also have the right to play or not play. No one is forced to go to an EarthCache!

We also don't know of any instance where a posted geocacher's photo resulted in harm to that cacher. Maybe an after-the-fact 'police mug shot' has caused consternation to a cacher or two but not run of the mill cache photos! A quick, informal survey indicates that over 87% of the EC developers require a photo but there is also nothing wrong with NOT requiring a photo, if that is what the DEVELOPER wants.

Gosh, hasn't this subject been, like the proverbial dead horse, beaten to death! :blink:

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just put a paper bag over your head with your geocaching alias written on the front :)

Kind of my opinion as to the security of the cacher's identity. Personally I don't have a camera to take photos with, so I can't do ecs like these. :P

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Yeah good idea, you never know who may be stalking you in the geocaching web site. :blink: Alway bring your bag.

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