Need cachers opinions

[+S&BGeo]

Just wanting other cachers opinions here

In our area when new caches are posted some cachers go after them just for the FTF in areas that are actually closed or have hours posted as to when it is open. Parks, Cemetaries etc.

Our question is ( I know there are no rules written in stone)

 

The only reason they are going at this time is to get the FTF, if it was not new they would not be going at these hours.

Should they be allowed to claim the FTF if they visited when posted hours at location are ignored.

 

Please comment

[+CoverOfDarkness]

Regardless of when they find them, legally or otherwise, they are still first to find the cache, and since that's what 'FTF' stands for, then yes.

 

As a night-time cacher, I can say these restricted areas are actually fairly rare. Sure, a few parks have hours posted with no enforcement, but it's up to discretion (and stealth abilities ) of the cacher whether or not they should attempt it.

 

Side note, it's also substantially harder to find a cache by flashlight than by sunlight, so if they can find that FTF using a double-AA flashlight in the freezing midnight temps, more power to 'em.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Should they be allowed to ignore posted hours?

If the place does not have an entry fee or is not private property, then yes.

 

Most cemeteries have posted hours just to help prevent what you average person wouldn't do anyway.

1. Partying.
   
2. Vandalism.
   
3. Liability insurance.
   
4. Grave robbing.
   

As for playgrounds

1. Partying.
   
2. Vandalism.
   
3. Liability insurance.
   

Reasons 1 and 2 can be dealt with (for the most part) by the application of age restrictions.

Reason 4 with cemeteries, well if somebody is going to rob a grave, a time restriction will only help them by insuring less people will be around.

 

As for reason 3, we need to stop rewarding idiots for their stupidity because the rest of us may get punished for it.

I'm waiting to see a successful lawsuit where somebody sues an auto manufacturer for not installing a speed governor because their husband/wife/mother/father/son/daughter died from the capability of exceeding the states maximum speed limit.

It is simple ladies and gentlemen. If the defendants had installed governors in their automobiles preventing them from exceeding 75 miles per hour then my clients family member would have arrived at the location 45 seconds after the truck that killed them and we would not be here. Show the defendants that it is their responsibility to prevent people from breaking the law by finding for my client in the sum of 80 million dollars. Sorry 'bout that.

 

Yeah they should, obviously not only do they think that FTF is a competition but you do also, and as such if they are willing to do something for it that you aren't then they win.

 

~~~EDIT~~~

SPELLING

Edited March 8, 2009 by Vater_Araignee

[+lcandela123]

I agree that FTF is still valid. Why over-police it? Its like asking if they got a speeding ticket while caching, do they get their FTF?

[+briansnat]

You don't "claim" FTF. You either are FTF or you aren't.

 

That said, it doesn't make the practice right. Breaking laws in order to find geocaches is not good for our sport and can only give it a black eye.

 

If I was the cache owner I would express my ire directly to the finder and if he mentioned breaking the law in his log I would ask him to remove it. It's not something that non geocachers need to see.

[+Rockin Roddy]

You don't "claim" FTF. You either are FTF or you aren't.

 

That said, it doesn't make the practice right. Breaking laws in order to find geocaches is not good for our sport and can only give it a black eye.

 

If I was the cache owner I would express my ire directly to the finder and if he mentioned breaking the law in his log I would ask him to remove it. It's not something that non geocachers need to see.

 

Exactly! Some cachers feel they are above the law and use the old "if I'm not noticed, I'm OK" argument. With that mindset, why stop with simple tresspass? As Brian said, breaking the law is bad for our fun, why would anyone put everyone else's fun at risk simply for an FTF (will that get you anything at all??). People who play like that lose credibility in my eyes!

 

Is ANY cache really worht breaking the law for?

[+Rockin Roddy]

I agree that FTF is still valid. Why over-police it? Its like asking if they got a speeding ticket while caching, do they get their FTF?

 

Why over-police?? How about simply policing? It's not hard to post a note stating all logs hinting at an after hours find will be deleted without warning. Letting people do as they please will NOT be of help for our activity should someone get a wild hair and start complaining (say, the nosey neighbor living next to the park or cemetery?). If we just turn a blind eye and say do as you please, we could risk letting them ruin it for us!

 

Have a backbone, enforce the laws!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Should they be allowed to ignore posted hours?

If the place does not have an entry fee or is not private property, then yes.

 

 

This one's great...so are you saying that, if I don't lock my doors, people are allowed to simply walk in and help themselves to my stuff? No harm no foul? Maybe they aren't there to steal, vandalize or do any harm, maybe they just want to watch my TV?? This is a scary mentality, it's sayin you are above the law because you don't mean to do any harm or damage. WRONG! The law applies to ALL of us, not just the ones the law is intended to discourage!

 

I know, we'll hear the "I walk my dog" argument next....so? If the park is CLOSED, that means stay out! Not, "I can do this since I likely won't be seen anyway", not the "I'm not a punk" mentality and certainly not the "I'm above the law" mindset!

[+SixDogTeam]

Regardless of when they find them, legally or otherwise, they are still first to find the cache, and since that's what 'FTF' stands for, then yes.

 

As a night-time cacher, I can say these restricted areas are actually fairly rare. Sure, a few parks have hours posted with no enforcement, but it's up to discretion (and stealth abilities ) of the cacher whether or not they should attempt it.

 

Side note, it's also substantially harder to find a cache by flashlight than by sunlight, so if they can find that FTF using a double-AA flashlight in the freezing midnight temps, more power to 'em.

 

This is an incredibly reckless and selfish point of view and is just the sort of thing that can get geocaching banned. He's right that it is up to his discretion as tho whether or not to break the law. Let's hope he decides not to and doesn't spend a lot of jail time to think about whether or not it was a good decision...

 

The logic of the argument that it is "harder" when breaking the law makes it somehow more noble to attempt escapes us.

 

We think a little more thinking is required here...Actions have consequences.

 

The consequences of night caching on my cemetery caches, for example, is deletion of the find log. Oops, No FTF anym ore!

[AZcachemeister]

The entire 36,400 acres of The McDowell Sonoran Preserve were arguably put off limits to Geocaching due to ONE cacher who ignored an 'Area Closed' sign and entered the preserve to find a cache.

 

I don't think it was even for an FTF, and I'm sure it wasn't at night.

 

The fact that he acted irresponsibly gave the director (who probably wanted to ban caching anyway) of the commission (that controls the preserve) the ammunition to 'prove' that geocachers (ALL GEOCACHERS) were irresponsible trash-dumpers who only care about their own interests and don't care to follow any rules or regulations.

 

I don't think that one smilie was worth the consequences.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Funny what inspires people's wrath.

 

I know that one poster to this thread who states that the log should be deleted if found outside of posted hours smokes.

 

When last we were together at a geocaching event we chatted outside the hotel in the designated smoking area (smokers having lost the privilege inside).

 

There were two large ashtrays within ten feet of the smoker. He threw all his butts on the ground.

 

He wasn't alone in this, a number of smoking geocachers did the same thing. The ground around and between the ashtrays became littered with butts to the point where hotel management had to send someone to sweep the area several times during the day I was there. The hotel pays for such clean-up by raising the rates of all guests... most of whom do not smoke.

 

All over the nation designated smoking areas are being closed because so many smokers choose to throw their butt on the ground around the ashtray rather than use it for its intended purpose. I don't know if it's carelessness or some kind of act of spite, but these smokers are costing all of us territory and making all smokers look bad.

 

Some of these littering geocachers will passionately explain our 'CITO ethic' to anyone who will listen. I love it when they stand there talking about CITO while throwing their butts on the ground. They don't even see the irony.

 

[in the interest of full disclosure I am a smoker often guilty of littering butts, but not when standing near an ashtray!]

 

So... situational ethics. Someone who is willing to delete a log if the cacher violates park hours will without a thought litter that same park with burning cigarette butts.

 

We all choose what is unacceptable behavior in others, often without regard to our own. Are we to delete the logs of everyone who does something illegal or to our sensibilities unethical or unacceptable?

Edited March 8, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+Rockin Roddy]

Funny what inspires people's wrath.

 

I know that one poster to this thread who states that the log should be deleted if found outside of posted hours smokes.

 

When last we were together at a geocaching event we chatted outside the hotel in the designated smoking area (smokers having lost the privilege inside).

 

There were two large ashtrays within ten feet of the smoker. He threw all his butts on the ground.

 

He wasn't alone in this, a number of smoking geocachers did the same thing. The ground around and between the ashtrays became littered with butts to the point where hotel management had to send someone to sweep the area several times during the day I was there.

 

All over the nation designated smoking areas are being closed because so many smokers choose to throw their butt on the ground around the ashtray rather than use it for its intended purpose. I don't know if it's carelessness or some kind of act of spite, but these smokers are costing all of us territory and making all smokers look bad.

 

Some of these littering geocachers will passionately explain our 'CITO ethic' to anyone who will listen. I love it when they stand there talking about CITO while throwing their butts on the ground. They don't even see the irony.

 

[in the interest of full disclosure I am a smoker often guilty of this]

 

So... situational ethics. Someone who is willing to delete a log if the cacher violates park hours will without a thought litter that same park with burning cigarette butts.

 

We all choose what is unacceptable behavior in others, often without regard to our own. Are we to delete the logs of everyone who does something illegal or to our sensibilities unethical or unacceptable?

 

No TAR, we're supposed to speak out and let people know that what they are doing is wrong. Had you spoke out instead of just watched the smoker litter, maybe that smoker would have learned from that and thought better next time (maybe not, but not saying anything helps no one).

 

ETA: I have been guilty of entering after hours for a cache mysel. When pointed out the potential harm, my ways changed and I am now happy to pass on my experience. Had no one ever mentioned the potential harm, I may never have even thought about it and could still be entering after hours, thus potentially harming our activity!

Edited March 8, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+DanOCan]

It's not a good idea to violate any posted rules when Geocaching, but it is still a FTF. Deleting the log does nothing to change that fact.

[+Rockin Roddy]

It's not a good idea to violate any posted rules when Geocaching, but it is still a FTF. Deleting the log does nothing to change that fact.

 

Sure the FTF cannot be claimed by anyone else, but maybe instead of simply leaving the FTF to post their find, maybe posting that the FTF'r was deleted due to finding after hours might let people know that you are watching and want everyone to play by the law!

 

Also, deleting the find does mess with the finders', stats and causes them to do something else (such as log their own cache or an archived or whatever). Making them do extra steps means they'll think about it even if it does nothing more! Do this enough and maybe they'll get the hint! At the least, you know you did all you could do!

[+flask]

i can think of two times that i've violated open hours to find a cache:

 

once the park entrance was over here and the sign with the posted hours was over there. we prob'ly would'a' seen it if it had been closer to the entrance. we didn't think much about it, since it was only about five in the afternoon. PARK CLOSES AT DUSK. sunset that day was at 4:22. the park caretaker whom we passed on the way in might have informed us that the park was closed, but instead he called the police.

 

more recently, we walked a couple of miles at night to find a DAY USE ONLY sign on the trail. why there was no such sign at the trailhead is beyond me.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Should they be allowed to ignore posted hours?

If the place does not have an entry fee or is not private property, then yes.

 

Most cemeteries have posted hours just to help prevent what you average person wouldn't do anyway.

1. Partying.
   
2. Vandalism.
   
3. Liability insurance.
   
4. Grave robbing.
   

As for playgrounds

1. Partying.
   
2. Vandalism.
   
3. Liability insurance.
   

Reasons 1 and 2 can be dealt with (for the most part) by the application of age restrictions.

Reason 4 with cemeteries, well if somebody is going to rob a grave, a time restriction will only help them by insuring less people will be around.

 

As for reason 3, we need to stop rewarding idiots for their stupidity because the rest of us may get punished for it.

I'm waiting to see a successful lawsuit where somebody sues an auto manufacturer for not installing a speed governor because their husband/wife/mother/father/son/daughter died from the capability of exceeding the states maximum speed limit.

It is simple ladies and gentlemen. If the defendants had installed governors in their automobiles preventing them from exceeding 75 miles per hour then my clients family member would have arrived at the location 45 seconds after the truck that killed them and we would not be here. Show the defendants that it is their responsibility to prevent people from breaking the law by finding for my client in the sum of 80 million dollars. Sorry 'bout that.

 

Yeah they should, obviously not only do they think that FTF is a competition but you do also, and as such if they are willing to do something for it that you aren't then they win.

 

~~~EDIT~~~

SPELLING

Personally, I would never enter such posted/closed at night areas myself, for any reason, much less to find a geocache. And I disapprove of others doing it. It is not only disrespectful to the land manager, but can also earn this sport an ill-needed black eye.

 

But when you speak above of "now allowing" such offenses, the reality is: it is beyond your power, and mine, and that of Groundspeak, to prevent such behaviors, without expending incredible amounts of funds, effort and time.

 

Lastly, another reason why I am so against geocachers entering parks at night is the domino effect of these so-called "small crimes". These people start with supposedly mild misdemeanor offenses such as trespassing in a park during closed hours, and, next thing you know, they are drinking alcohol and shooting heroin, and then they graduate to crack cocaine and robbing banks to support their habit, and then it is a small step to full-blown horrid offenses such as serial murders and robbing little old ladies on the sidewalk.

[+starscream2]

Should they be allowed to ignore posted hours?

If the place does not have an entry fee or is not private property, then yes.

 

Most cemeteries have posted hours just to help prevent what you average person wouldn't do anyway.

1. Partying.
   
2. Vandalism.
   
3. Liability insurance.
   
4. Grave robbing.
   

As for playgrounds

1. Partying.
   
2. Vandalism.
   
3. Liability insurance.
   

Reasons 1 and 2 can be dealt with (for the most part) by the application of age restrictions.

Reason 4 with cemeteries, well if somebody is going to rob a grave, a time restriction will only help them by insuring less people will be around.

 

As for reason 3, we need to stop rewarding idiots for their stupidity because the rest of us may get punished for it.

I'm waiting to see a successful lawsuit where somebody sues an auto manufacturer for not installing a speed governor because their husband/wife/mother/father/son/daughter died from the capability of exceeding the states maximum speed limit.

It is simple ladies and gentlemen. If the defendants had installed governors in their automobiles preventing them from exceeding 75 miles per hour then my clients family member would have arrived at the location 45 seconds after the truck that killed them and we would not be here. Show the defendants that it is their responsibility to prevent people from breaking the law by finding for my client in the sum of 80 million dollars. Sorry 'bout that.

 

Yeah they should, obviously not only do they think that FTF is a competition but you do also, and as such if they are willing to do something for it that you aren't then they win.

 

~~~EDIT~~~

SPELLING

Personally, I would never enter such posted/closed at night areas myself, for any reason, much less to find a geocache. And I disapprove of others doing it. It is not only disrespectful to the land manager, but can also earn this sport an ill-needed black eye.

 

But when you speak above of "now allowing" such offenses, the reality is: it is beyond your power, and mine, and that of Groundspeak, to prevent such behaviors, without expending incredible amounts of funds, effort and time.

 

Lastly, another reason why I am so against geocachers entering parks at night is the domino effect of these so-called "small crimes". These people start with supposedly mild misdemeanor offenses such as trespassing in a park during closed hours, and, next thing you know, they are drinking alcohol and shooting heroin, and then they graduate to crack cocaine and robbing banks to support their habit, and then it is a small step to full-blown horrid offenses such as serial murders and robbing little old ladies on the sidewalk.

 

To me some of the responsiblity comes on the hider. If you hide a cache in a place with restricted hours, you should do everything you can to list all the relevant information on cache's page. I would not hesitate to include a statement saying any finds made outside of legal visting hours will have their logs deleted. Sure people can lie and say the finds were within posted hours, but at least the hider is doing the right thing and trying to encourage others to as well. If the hider does not post the hours or warnings then I don't see how they could feel right about deleting logs for people claiming to find it after hours.

 

As far as people intentionally going after FTF when they know they are violating the hours of the park, it is just wrong. If they do get caught or seen, it gives the geocaching community a bad name. It is about respecting the parks and places that allow us to geocache and honoring their rules. In a time where in many places we struggle to convince parks that geocaching is a good safe fun way to use the land, having people disrespect their rules just to get FTF is not going to help.

Edited March 8, 2009 by starscream2

[+Vater_Araignee]

Should they be allowed to ignore posted hours?

If the place does not have an entry fee or is not private property, then yes.

 

 

This one's great...so are you saying that, if I don't lock my doors, people are allowed to simply walk in and help themselves to my stuff? No harm no foul? Maybe they aren't there to steal, vandalize or do any harm, maybe they just want to watch my TV??

Where did you obviously not notice private property in my post?

I just rendered your example false considering you did quote that portion and I cant edit you quoting me.

 

This is a scary mentality, it's sayin you are above the law because you don't mean to do any harm or damage. WRONG! The law applies to ALL of us, not just the ones the law is intended to discourage!

 

I know, we'll hear the "I walk my dog" argument next....so? If the park is CLOSED, that means stay out! Not, "I can do this since I likely won't be seen anyway", not the "I'm not a punk" mentality and certainly not the "I'm above the law" mindset!

I hope for a LEO to make issue out of it, kinda like when it was illegal for women to appear in public without a brassiere. Somebody had to break the law in order for the issue to garner attention and get said law changed.

 

I don't condone bypassing physical bearers intended to keep people out of public property during off hours but if I can walk onto public property intended for recreation, then please do write me a ticket or arrest me for harmlessly recreating on my own time.

I never claimed to be above the law but on this issue you could say I have a liberal mentality.

 

The way I see it, stop having law that punish the people that the law is not intended for or give us the option to declare that our tax dollars don't go to properties with time restrictions or put gates across the legitimate access points.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Personally, I would never enter such posted/closed at night areas myself, for any reason, much less to find a geocache. And I disapprove of others doing it. It is not only disrespectful to the land manager, but can also earn this sport an ill-needed black eye.

 

But when you speak above of "now allowing" such offenses, the reality is: it is beyond your power, and mine, and that of Groundspeak, to prevent such behaviors, without expending incredible amounts of funds, effort and time.

 

Lastly, another reason why I am so against geocachers entering parks at night is the domino effect of these so-called "small crimes". These people start with supposedly mild misdemeanor offenses such as trespassing in a park during closed hours, and, next thing you know, they are drinking alcohol and shooting heroin, and then they graduate to crack cocaine and robbing banks to support their habit, and then it is a small step to full-blown horrid offenses such as serial murders and robbing little old ladies on the sidewalk.

violating time restrictions is a gateway to addiction and murder.

Yup, punish Joe for the transgressions of Jack.

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

I hope for a LEO to make issue out of it, kinda like when it was illegal for women to appear in public without a brassiere. Somebody had to break the law in order for the issue to garner attention and get said law changed.

 

I don't condone bypassing physical bearers intended to keep people out of public property during off hours but if I can walk onto public property intended for recreation, then please do write me a ticket or arrest me for harmlessly recreating on my own time.

I never claimed to be above the law but on this issue you could say I have a liberal mentality.

 

The way I see it, stop having law that punish the people that the law is not intended for or give us the option to declare that our tax dollars don't go to properties with time restrictions or put gates across the legitimate access points.

 

You do realize there are better ways of asking for change besides breaking the law, right? Also, don't you suppose your credibility would be much better trying lawful approaches to making change? The way I see it, you should probably at least attempt to have laws changed before protesting through illegal avenues...have you already asked for change and was turned down??

 

Justifying an illegal action by claiming your rights have been stomped on doesn't quite seem right to me!

[+Vater_Araignee]

You do realize there are better ways of asking for change besides breaking the law, right? Also, don't you suppose your credibility would be much better trying lawful approaches to making change? The way I see it, you should probably at least attempt to have laws changed before protesting through illegal avenues...have you already asked for change and was turned down??

 

Justifying an illegal action by claiming your rights have been stomped on doesn't quite seem right to me!

Dear Sir,

 

We regret to inform you that the are more pressing matters that deserve our attention...

 

Mr. Araignee,

 

Thank you for taking the time to write, we will look into the matter...

Remember to vote blah blah blah

 

We are not responsible for this matter please contact...

 

Your return adress indicates you do not live in our jurisdiction, please contact...

 

Maybe if I had a couple hundred thousand to donate as a campaign contribution?

Seems like I'll get farther with contacting the press wile fighting any legal action taken against me.

 

Cheaper too.

[+Rockin Roddy]

You do realize there are better ways of asking for change besides breaking the law, right? Also, don't you suppose your credibility would be much better trying lawful approaches to making change? The way I see it, you should probably at least attempt to have laws changed before protesting through illegal avenues...have you already asked for change and was turned down??

 

Justifying an illegal action by claiming your rights have been stomped on doesn't quite seem right to me!

Dear Sir,

 

We regret to inform you that the are more pressing matters that deserve our attention...

 

Mr. Araignee,

 

Thank you for taking the time to write, we will look into the matter...

Remember to vote blah blah blah

 

We are not responsible for this matter please contact...

 

Your return adress indicates you do not live in our jurisdiction, please contact...

 

Maybe if I had a couple hundred thousand to donate as a campaign contribution?

Seems like I'll get farther with contacting the press wile fighting any legal action taken against me.

 

Cheaper too.

 

I would hope stopping at a local city council meeting would be your first thought. It would seem local ordinances are usually discussed there, passed or voted down there etc. All who go there are allowed to voice their opinions, concerns etc...and it's free.

 

Do you also bypass the proper channels instead of attempting to obtain permission for these same types of parks?

 

ETA: just how much press do you suppose you're going to get? I can see it now, "STOP THE PRESSES, we've got someone who has decided to launch a protest of the after hours laws for our parks...by breaking the law"! If I were truly interested in making change and not just using that as an excuse to break the laws, I'd start gathering petition signatures and get press by doing positive things...just me though!!

Edited March 8, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+flask]

one really disgruntled land manager or LEO is all it takes in some areas to make things difficult for all cachers in an area.

 

sometimes we just have to make adjustments in our play for the sake of perception.

 

knives in caches were never a real danger. knives in caches were a real issue to land managers.

burying caches was never a significant environmental problem. buried caches were of concern to land managers.

 

the perception that off-hours caching is a problem will get land managers all het up about it.

 

while most jurisdictions won't be pressing a lot of charges on people who go into parks during their closed hours, it's entirely possible and not terribly farfetched that those jusrisdictions may respond by adopting anti-caching policies.

 

it's best to just observe operating hours and restrictions.

[+Vater_Araignee]

I would hope stopping at a local city council meeting would be your first thought. It would seem local ordinances are usually discussed there, passed or voted down there etc. All who go there are allowed to voice their opinions, concerns etc...and it's free.

 

Do you also bypass the proper channels instead of attempting to obtain permission for these same types of parks?

Unfortunately it goes beyond local for me which is why I have gotten the "your outside of our jurisdiction" replies.

When I make further inquiries about park funding around 20% of the time I find that zero state funding is applied toward the location in question, I drop the issue with those parks then and there, after all it's not my park. Once one state or federal cent goes to that park it becomes the property of every state and or U.S. citizen.

I'm surprised that I can't find a solar urticaria group in Michigan making an attempt to have these issues dealt with, it's why I originally took issue. I knew a girl that could only go to state parks to play at night during the summers because she couldn't dress light enough during the day to keep heat from getting to her without exposing herself to the sun. For me it has since progressed to "why can I take my kids during a time I will be more comfortable?" (locally I can) or after a show, I like to wind down and relax on a swing set. Something about the squeak of the chains in the general silence, even thinking about it has a slight effect.

 

Sorry I steered this off topic. I'm done.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Once one state or federal cent goes to that park it becomes the property of every state and or U.S. citizen.

 

Try putting up a house on "your property" then and see where that gets you!

 

No cache is worth breaking the law for. No reason can justify breaking the law unless it's an emergency (I say this because there is always an exception to the rule), breaking a law for a cache is bad for caching.

 

I won't even comment on the "girl" comment...

[+flask]

 

I won't even comment on the "girl" comment...

 

i believe the comment was regarding a specific girl.

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

I won't even comment on the "girl" comment...

 

i believe the comment was regarding a specific girl.

 

[+Mredria]

Outside of the argument, I'd just say that if I placed a cache in a time restricted area and someone got hurt going after it at night, I would feel really really bad, regardless of whether they were a jackass for going after it outside of hours.

[+Harry Dolphin]

It's not a good idea to violate any posted rules when Geocaching, but it is still a FTF. Deleting the log does nothing to change that fact.

 

Sure the FTF cannot be claimed by anyone else, but maybe instead of simply leaving the FTF to post their find, maybe posting that the FTF'r was deleted due to finding after hours might let people know that you are watching and want everyone to play by the law!

 

I like this idea. FTF unavailabe. Deleted due to violating the law.

[+Palamino]

I feel very strongly about caching where there is a sign that says Private or No Entry after dark. I believe we should respect this and do not enter. I also do not understand why a cache would be hidden in an area that is off bounds? When R46 and myself cache and if it looks like we are on private property we forget that cache and go on to the next no biggy!!!! I also feel looking in a Park at night where backyards are looking into the Park this could be very unnerving to the people who live there which also brings me to this WHY do cachers hide cache in Parks close to where children are playing I have a real problem with this.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Palamino

[+Star*Hopper]

Use the KISS principle. If the find violates your cache-page's edicts, WHACK it!

 

And AFA all these folks in here who are constantly making excuses for miscreants & their actions, and especially the more they defend them....I can't help but think they must be guilty of those same offenses.

~*

[+flask]

Outside of the argument, I'd just say that if I placed a cache in a time restricted area and someone got hurt going after it at night, I would feel really really bad, regardless of whether they were a jackass for going after it outside of hours.

 

i am not sure why it matters if a person gets hurt looking for a cache at night or not. nighttime is a perfectly acceptable time for recreational activities. night skiing, night mountain biking, night hikes. camping fer pete's sake!

 

people get hurt while engaged in recreational activities during both night and day.

 

with only a few exceptions, every time i've been hauled off in an ambulance, it's been on account of a recreational activity. i am accustomed to risk-assumed sports. it's my responsibility to have and use proper gear. if i get hurt while looking for a geocache, it's MY fault. if the hider has made adequate warnings about known hazards, i am informed as to the risks and it's not the hider's problem.

 

sometimes people get hurt. had i died as a result of my december cache adventure, it would have been sad, but it wouldn't have been the hider's fault.

 

people should not be looking for caches during closed hours. it's less about safety than it is about respecting the land managers.

[+Mredria]

Outside of the argument, I'd just say that if I placed a cache in a time restricted area and someone got hurt going after it at night, I would feel really really bad, regardless of whether they were a jackass for going after it outside of hours.

 

i am not sure why it matters if a person gets hurt looking for a cache at night or not. nighttime is a perfectly acceptable time for recreational activities. night skiing, night mountain biking, night hikes. camping fer pete's sake!

 

people get hurt while engaged in recreational activities during both night and day.

 

with only a few exceptions, every time i've been hauled off in an ambulance, it's been on account of a recreational activity. i am accustomed to risk-assumed sports. it's my responsibility to have and use proper gear. if i get hurt while looking for a geocache, it's MY fault. if the hider has made adequate warnings about known hazards, i am informed as to the risks and it's not the hider's problem.

 

sometimes people get hurt. had i died as a result of my december cache adventure, it would have been sad, but it wouldn't have been the hider's fault.

 

people should not be looking for caches during closed hours. it's less about safety than it is about respecting the land managers.

 

Sure, it wouldn't be the hider's fault. But if your decemeber cache had been my cache and you'd died, I'd be pretty torn up about it. You wouldn't have been out there if it weren't for my hide, right?

 

And I think that it's much easier to avoid snakes/tripping/other hazards in the daytime than the night time. usually.

[+flask]

 

Sure, it wouldn't be the hider's fault. But if your decemeber cache had been my cache and you'd died, I'd be pretty torn up about it. You wouldn't have been out there if it weren't for my hide, right?

 

 

no, i'd have found some other dumb-butted thing to be doing.

 

if you hide a cache where someone might trip on the edge of the sidewalk, there's potential for someone to be injured.

 

what if i get tetanus or hep-c at an urban micro? if you're going to place caches, you have to just place caches. people WILL get hurt. not at every cache, but people will get hurt.

 

i may be more accident prone than most, but i managed to break my collarbone twice one year.

 

...walking. no risky behavior, just walking. fall down, go boom. twice.

 

that lady who ran over me on route 2? not her fault. sure, she felt bad to have done it, but she moved on, i hope.

 

that guy whose cache i was looking for in december? not his fault. not the cache's fault. pure dumb luck. equally lucky i didn't die.

 

what's a little backcountry rescue between friends?

 

the first thing the guys who were with me said when they came in to see me in the ER was "we got to ride in a firetruck!!" and "we got FREE COFFEE!"

 

THOSE are guys with the proper perspective on life.

[+Mredria]

 

Sure, it wouldn't be the hider's fault. But if your decemeber cache had been my cache and you'd died, I'd be pretty torn up about it. You wouldn't have been out there if it weren't for my hide, right?

 

 

no, i'd have found some other dumb-butted thing to be doing.

 

if you hide a cache where someone might trip on the edge of the sidewalk, there's potential for someone to be injured.

 

what if i get tetanus or hep-c at an urban micro? if you're going to place caches, you have to just place caches. people WILL get hurt. not at every cache, but people will get hurt.

 

i may be more accident prone than most, but i managed to break my collarbone twice one year.

 

...walking. no risky behavior, just walking. fall down, go boom. twice.

 

that lady who ran over me on route 2? not her fault. sure, she felt bad to have done it, but she moved on, i hope.

 

that guy whose cache i was looking for in december? not his fault. not the cache's fault. pure dumb luck. equally lucky i didn't die.

 

what's a little backcountry rescue between friends?

 

the first thing the guys who were with me said when they came in to see me in the ER was "we got to ride in a firetruck!!" and "we got FREE COFFEE!"

 

THOSE are guys with the proper perspective on life.

 

For sure. But I'd still feel bad. There's no need to try to convince me not to, that's just how I am. Sorry to hijack the thread, back on topic!

[+flask]

 

the first thing the guys who were with me said when they came in to see me in the ER was "we got to ride in a firetruck!!" and "we got FREE COFFEE!"

 

THOSE are guys with the proper perspective on life.

 

oh, and just to be clear: those were the guys who kept me alive for seven hours while we waited for rescue.

 

want to know what they did the following saturday?

 

NIGHT CACHING in single-digit temperatures! i love those guys.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Once one state or federal cent goes to that park it becomes the property of every state and or U.S. citizen.

 

Try putting up a house on "your property" then and see where that gets you!

 

No cache is worth breaking the law for. No reason can justify breaking the law unless it's an emergency (I say this because there is always an exception to the rule), breaking a law for a cache is bad for caching.

You and I both know that you just took what I said out of context in an attempt to make a point.

I 'll point out that it takes away from debate and leads to argument.

I'll also point out that you suggestions and outrage would have more weight if you where also trying to get the same laws changed because then you might be able to prove that the methods that have and still do consistently fail me actually work.

One more thing, I'm not stupid. I'm not going to decide to do a protest violation on a law I find unjust without first creating a large paper trail prior to the protest. You tell the media "It's a protest" and can't show documentation of your stance, they say "Yeah right, you're just trying to use another law to get out of trouble." and having pointed that out, if you want to get technical I'm not violating an ordinance when I enter a playground or park after hours as long as I'm not bypassing physical bearers to gain entry, I'm legally protesting.

The hilarious side of this is, in all the times I have violated this type of ordinance I have yet to be approached even once. I figure it is because I'm not doing any of the activities the ordinances are designed to discourage.

 

I won't even comment on the "girl" comment...

I only knew her when we where between 11 and 14 so she will always be a girl when I refer to her.

 

Or do you mean her suffering from solar urticaria. I'll be honest back when i knew her I didn't know the medical terminology for severe sun allergy, but I thought it was wrong that her family had to travel an hour so she could use playground equipment when we had a perfectly good park a block away.

 

This time I'm done and I mean it. Righteous indignation and all that.

[Clan Riffster]

I don't have any problem with folks caching after dark, so long as it's in an area where being there after dark is legal.

I often hunt for caches after the sun has set. It adds to the challenge, plus, I just happen to like being outside at night.

Maybe I've got a little Βρυκόλακας in me?

[+CoverOfDarkness]

I personally don't trespass whether in night or day, though often go in open area places which might be deemed suspicious. However there are no legal boundaries being crossed.

 

Still, anyone who's not done a night hunt should =)

Edited March 9, 2009 by CoverOfDarkness

[+rjb43nh]

Vater_Araignee (post #37)-

"….if you want to get technical I'm not violating an ordinance when I enter a playground or park after hours as long as I'm not bypassing physical bearers to gain entry…..."

 

"…..The hilarious side of this is, in all the times I have violated this type of ordinance….."

 

Hoisted by his own petard.

Edited March 9, 2009 by rjb43nh

[+wimseyguy]

people should not be looking for caches during closed hours. it's less about safety than it is about respecting the land managers.

 

DINGDINGDING we have a winner. There are already several documented cases of areas being posted as off limits to geocaching simply due to this lack of respect. Why would anyone want to add to that list or defend the actions of those who do?

[+Renegade Knight]

...

The only reason they are going at this time is to get the FTF, if it was not new they would not be going at these hours.

Should they be allowed to claim the FTF if they visited when posted hours at location are ignored.

 

Please comment

They should both get the FTF and any relevant fines.

[+Renegade Knight]

I agree that FTF is still valid. Why over-police it? Its like asking if they got a speeding ticket while caching, do they get their FTF?

 

Why over-police?? How about simply policing? It's not hard to post a note stating all logs hinting at an after hours find will be deleted without warning. ...

 

That may be fair but keep in mind that all it is, is keeping up appearances.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Once one state or federal cent goes to that park it becomes the property of every state and or U.S. citizen.

 

Try putting up a house on "your property" then and see where that gets you!

 

No cache is worth breaking the law for. No reason can justify breaking the law unless it's an emergency (I say this because there is always an exception to the rule), breaking a law for a cache is bad for caching.

You and I both know that you just took what I said out of context in an attempt to make a point.

I 'll point out that it takes away from debate and leads to argument.

I'll also point out that you suggestions and outrage would have more weight if you where also trying to get the same laws changed because then you might be able to prove that the methods that have and still do consistently fail me actually work.

One more thing, I'm not stupid. I'm not going to decide to do a protest violation on a law I find unjust without first creating a large paper trail prior to the protest. You tell the media "It's a protest" and can't show documentation of your stance, they say "Yeah right, you're just trying to use another law to get out of trouble." and having pointed that out, if you want to get technical I'm not violating an ordinance when I enter a playground or park after hours as long as I'm not bypassing physical bearers to gain entry, I'm legally protesting.

The hilarious side of this is, in all the times I have violated this type of ordinance I have yet to be approached even once. I figure it is because I'm not doing any of the activities the ordinances are designed to discourage.

 

I won't even comment on the "girl" comment...

I only knew her when we where between 11 and 14 so she will always be a girl when I refer to her.

 

Or do you mean her suffering from solar urticaria. I'll be honest back when i knew her I didn't know the medical terminology for severe sun allergy, but I thought it was wrong that her family had to travel an hour so she could use playground equipment when we had a perfectly good park a block away.

 

This time I'm done and I mean it. Righteous indignation and all that.

 

No, I used your words right as you stated. You think that, since you pay taxes, you are allowed to do what you want when you want and where you want...that's bullpucky and you know it! Think of it like you're renting a condo and the condo has a day use area. Since you rent the condo, you have the right to use this, but ONLY when they say you can!!

 

You also DID state that you want the police to stop you, ticket you etc, the reason was stated in one of your previous posts, but it mainly suggested you'd use that as a jumping point for your protest...these are your words I am merely summarizing them for you! It does take away from YOUR argument and really gives your credibility a blow.

 

Don't try to make it out that others need to be in the fight on a law in order to comment on anothers' actions, anyone here can read your words and decide what you're saying. Your argument is that these laws rob you of your right to use the park after hours, so you feel you can "protest" this by breaking the law....my stance is, IF I was against the law (which I haven't stated I am), my first step wouldn't be to break the law!

 

As soon as you start to act abve the laws, you make things worse instead of better. And as for the "I must be OK since I've never been stopped" attitude, I hope the LEO get a chance to set you straight on that, but in honesty, reminds me of how my teen thinks at times!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Oh, and as for the girl comment....my neighbor had a problem too, she couldn't swim in pools because of the chemicals, and could only swim in lakes and such. This was a huge probem since we lived a good distance from any good swimming lakes, so my poor neighbor had to make long drives to be able to swim. We're all inconvenienced in one way or another some time in our lives!

[+Rockin Roddy]

I agree that FTF is still valid. Why over-police it? Its like asking if they got a speeding ticket while caching, do they get their FTF?

 

Why over-police?? How about simply policing? It's not hard to post a note stating all logs hinting at an after hours find will be deleted without warning. ...

 

That may be fair but keep in mind that all it is, is keeping up appearances.

 

Correct. Appearance is everything in this case. If the landowner sees us as not caring about their rules, the result could be we lose our ability to use that land. If the LEO decide we can't pay attention to laws, they might go to the city council and ask to stop caching in their jurisdiction altogether. If a newb cacher sees us not doing anything at all, they might see this as breaking the law is condoned (or at least turned a blind eye to).

 

Funny, most of us would rather give the appearance of being law abiding, trustworthy citizens who would be good stewards of the lands we're allowed to use!

[+Headhardhat]

Have to put my .02c in regardless if already said...

 

The fact are there are rules that need to followed whether geocaching or otherwise. If the rules state closed from sunset to sunrise then closed means CLOSED. Be there at the crack of dawn and get your prize. It's the people that think they are "special" because they think they can get away with it are the same people who justify themself that the street light was really orange and not red.

 

Rules are for a reason. Follow them and you keep yourself and many other people out of trouble.

 

I am an FTF hound and even I know that an FTF is not worth compromising the game of geocaching as a whole. Break the law just to get another notch on your walking stick? Grow up and do what's right!

 

-HHH

[+Suburban Hillbillies]

If I asked for permission to place a cache somewhere, and that place has posted hours, and someone sneaks in, and gets caught looking for that geo cache thing, it would make ME look bad, and make the landowner think twice about letting more caches on land they own or manage.

 

So... As long as I took the responsibility to post in the cache description the posted hours that the cache could be found, I think I would have every right to deny someone their FTF by removing their log if they violated the rules.

 

If an area had no posted hours, it's all fair game at any hour.

Edited March 9, 2009 by Suburban Hillbillies

[+CoverOfDarkness]

If I asked for permission to place a cache somewhere, and that place has posted hours, and someone sneaks in, and gets caught looking for that geo cache thing, it would make ME look bad, and make the landowner think twice about letting more caches on land they own or manage.

 

So... As long as I took the responsibility to post in the cache description the posted hours that the cache could be found, I think I would have every right to deny someone their FTF by removing their log if they violated the rules.

 

If an area had no posted hours, it's all fair game at any hour.

Responsible also meaning putting the proper attributes on the cache page such as not 24/7 and not recommended at night? I've been a bit annoyed about arriving to a park after work (1am or so) only to find posted hours right there when there was nothing at all posted in the cache page about it. Granted, the CO probably doesn't expect someone coming out at 1am to find their cache, but this can apply to those out at 10 or 11pm as well.