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msrubble

Second opinion wanted

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I went looking for an NGS vertical control disk. It was set in the foundation of a signal box. I did not find a disk, but I did see a metal rod within a very suspicious circle.

 

Please see QP2005 (F 315 Reset).

 

My photos, and description of what I observed, are there. It may help to look at the original datasheet for more information on the setting.

 

What gave me the most hesitation is that the datasheet says that the disk is

21.5 FT (6.6 M) SOUTH OF THE SOUTH RAIL OF A SIDE TRACK OF THE RAILROAD TRACKS
but I measured 17 feet, 3.5 inches. However, the tracks don't run directly east-west. They go northeast to southwest. I measured the nearest, which would be southeast; the NGS may have measured by compass direction, south.

 

There is no other signal box in the area that meets the description of location.

 

Do you think that there is enough evidence that this is the mark for me to call it "found poor"?

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I was first going to say that Found Poor would be OK, but the more I look a the measurements, the less I think it's a find. It does look like a disk 'scar'. The metal in it is square not round, but that's OK, someone may have pounded a square rod in there. Lincoln Avenue doesn't look like a street that has changed in a long time, so the distance of what was found being 31.25 feet instead of 28.9 feet from the center of Lincoln Avenue is not a good sign. A very different difference from a metal enclosure isn't as bad since an enclosure can change. 17 feet versus 21 feet for the distance from the railis not a good sign either. The distance is too large, and tracks don't change that often, and when they do, it's likely that it would be more than 4 feet.

 

The signal box has a sort of look of just sitting there. Maybe it was moved?

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Forget about Northeast, etc. The leveling crews didn't appear to make much use of a compass. It was common to assume the railroad went a cardinal direction, especially when it crossed right angles at a road. So all your measurements should be perpendicular.

 

Is there anything about the street that indicates a change in the crossing? Like newer piece of curb and patching where a track used to cross?

 

The circle certainly looks right for a disk. The stem could be. If so, it is a little unusual that the description does not say "mounted vertically" as they usually do for these cases.

 

Are there conduits for cables going into the present location of the signal box? Is there more concrete under that gravel? Or has the box been uprooted and left sitting nearby? If you measure from the track and street are there concrete footings under the gravel at that spot?

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The signal box has a sort of look of just sitting there.

 

Good point. I will have to go look again.

 

Bill93, that is useful information about compass directions. I thought of it as south too, until I remembered that Lincoln ran at an angle.

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The signal box has a sort of look of just sitting there.

 

Good point. I will have to go look again.

 

Bill93, that is useful information about compass directions. I thought of it as south too, until I remembered that Lincoln ran at an angle.

Am I seeing a round hole that square bar stock was driven into? Can the the exposed "stem" be removed? Mike

Edited by kayakbird

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I went looking for an NGS vertical control disk. It was set in the foundation of a signal box. I did not find a disk, but I did see a metal rod within a very suspicious circle.

 

Building on what BDT said:

- I would not be too suspicious of the track-to-signal-box measurements - that line that the mark is measured from (the 'spur' I'll call it) used to cross the mainline and head across the river to the west. However, it has been realigned to junction WITH the mainline a block west. Therefore, that can set your measurement off by 4 feet easily.

- For the Lincoln St. measurement, you were off by roughly 2.5 feet. (2.35ft). Depending on the angle you went from the center of the street to the mark (in other words, did you go due west, or did you parallel the tracks in a south-west direction) that could give you your two.35 different.

- As for the salvage yard, well.. their last dog, Spike, seriously damaged the fence, and they were forced to re-build it. (That really appears like a new fence in the picture..)

- If the tracks were re-aligned, it's possible the control box was as well. However, that's a skeleton planter (meaning that it appears something like this underneath: base.jpg .. Exept that it's cement, shorter and wider. Being the case, if they had tried to move it, it would have crumbled and been unusuable. Therefore, if the signal box had been moved, it'd be sitting on a new base.

 

So I pretty much take the opposite stance of BDT. EXCEPT for this one point:

- It seems to be a USGS mark as well. To be sure? Dig up their data for it, and see what is said. :anibad: While this is a RESET, it may help some.

 

Me. At 3am. *yawn*

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I will probably be the least experienced person to respond here. However, I did spend about an hour looking at your report and comments.

 

- For the Lincoln St. measurement, you were off by roughly 2.5 feet. (2.35ft). Depending on the angle you went from the center of the street to the mark (in other words, did you go due west, or did you parallel the tracks in a south-west direction) that could give you your 2.35 difference.

I share foxtrot_xray’s comment about the Lincoln street measurement. Also, how did you determine the center of Lincoln Street? It can sometimes make a bit of a difference depending on how you measure – did you measure from the painted center line or did you measure the distance between the curbs and divide that by 2 and add that result to the distance from the mark to the closest curb?

 

For what it's worth, I have seen a broken off disk where the remaining stem looked just like yours – square instead of round.

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- It seems to be a USGS mark as well. To be sure? Dig up their data for it, and see what is said. :( While this is a RESET, it may help some.

Foxtrot, I don't want to drift off topic. But, just for my own education, could you tell me why this seems to be a USGS mark and tell me where you might go to dig up that data?

 

Thanks,

 

The TillaMurphs

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Foxtrot, I don't want to drift off topic. But, just for my own education, could you tell me why this seems to be a USGS mark and tell me where you might go to dig up that data?

I actually retract that statement. I had glanced at a USGS Topo map, and saw the label "BM 1027" - however, at the time of posting I didn't notice the 'X' marking the spot was on the wrong side of the tracks. (You can see a screenshot of the map here.) My bad, sorry. :( But, if Mrsrubble is feeling adventurous, the USGS one may still be there as well. I believe info on getting station information is located in this thread.

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It might we worthwhile to study the data sheet for QP0022 F 315 (Destroyed) which QP2005 replaced. I haven't done much thinking on that yet. This is probably the one on the topo. It might say something about where other things used to be.

Edited by Bill93

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An old thread that doesn't quite match my question - but I may end up in that part of MN on this road trip and could take a look. I agree with TillaMurphs evaluation of the stem shape "For what it's worth, I have seen a broken off disk where the remaining stem looked just like yours – square instead of round.".

 

My FOUND?/NOT FOUND? is for NASHUA

 

85f74361-3230-49eb-a55c-67739f105072.jpg

 

which is clearly a RESET disk that is not mentioned in the history

 

TJ0049 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1934 MONUMENTED CGS

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1948 GOOD NGS

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1980 MARK NOT FOUND NGS

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1981 GOOD LOCSUR

 

but the Box Score lists reference objects RM 3 (found yesterday) & RM 4 (new AZ - not found yesterday) that clearly were part of the 1973 RESET.

 

TJ0049| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az |

TJ0049| dddmmss.s |

TJ0049| TJ0050 NASHUA RM 1 16.867 METERS 09148 |

TJ0049| TJ0602 FORT PECK USBR RAD MAST APPROX.11.5 KM 1670258.2 |

TJ0049| CQ6235 NASHUA RM 4 AZIMUTH 17819 |

TJ0049| CQ6234 NASHUA RM 3 10.668 METERS 17842 |

TJ0049| TJ0051 NASHUA RM 2 20.212 METERS 18241 |

TJ0049| TJ0594 NASHUA N GAB FARM PROD CO ELEV APPROX. 0.7 KM 2904208.0 |

TJ0049| TJ0591 NASHUA N GAB OCCID FLOUR ELEV APPROX. 0.5 KM 2950435.1 |

TJ0049| TJ0052 NASHUA AZ MK 2994137.5 |

TJ0049| TJ0593 NASHUA CROSS ON CATH CH SPIRE APPROX. 0.8 KM 3094414.7 |

TJ0049|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

TJ0049

 

Is this a clerical error that left out a few paragraphs or might there be another PID out there somewhere? Both the 1980 and 1981 recoveries would have been a good time to clarify this situation.

 

Need to get a bit closer to Two Harbors, MN today so might not get any more photos posted for this complex of PID's for a few days.

 

kayakbird

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An old thread that doesn't quite match my question - but I may end up in that part of MN on this road trip and could take a look. I agree with TillaMurphs evaluation of the stem shape "For what it's worth, I have seen a broken off disk where the remaining stem looked just like yours – square instead of round.".

 

My FOUND?/NOT FOUND? is for NASHUA

 

85f74361-3230-49eb-a55c-67739f105072.jpg

 

which is clearly a RESET disk that is not mentioned in the history

 

TJ0049 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1934 MONUMENTED CGS

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1948 GOOD NGS

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1980 MARK NOT FOUND NGS

TJ0049 HISTORY - 1981 GOOD LOCSUR

 

but the Box Score lists reference objects RM 3 (found yesterday) & RM 4 (new AZ - not found yesterday) that clearly were part of the 1973 RESET.

 

TJ0049| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az |

TJ0049| dddmmss.s |

TJ0049| TJ0050 NASHUA RM 1 16.867 METERS 09148 |

TJ0049| TJ0602 FORT PECK USBR RAD MAST APPROX.11.5 KM 1670258.2 |

TJ0049| CQ6235 NASHUA RM 4 AZIMUTH 17819 |

TJ0049| CQ6234 NASHUA RM 3 10.668 METERS 17842 |

TJ0049| TJ0051 NASHUA RM 2 20.212 METERS 18241 |

TJ0049| TJ0594 NASHUA N GAB FARM PROD CO ELEV APPROX. 0.7 KM 2904208.0 |

TJ0049| TJ0591 NASHUA N GAB OCCID FLOUR ELEV APPROX. 0.5 KM 2950435.1 |

TJ0049| TJ0052 NASHUA AZ MK 2994137.5 |

TJ0049| TJ0593 NASHUA CROSS ON CATH CH SPIRE APPROX. 0.8 KM 3094414.7 |

TJ0049|---------------------------------------------------------------------|

TJ0049

 

Is this a clerical error that left out a few paragraphs or might there be another PID out there somewhere? Both the 1980 and 1981 recoveries would have been a good time to clarify this situation.

 

Need to get a bit closer to Two Harbors, MN today so might not get any more photos posted for this complex of PID's for a few days.

 

kayakbird

 

Not sure but, since there is an underground mark they may not feel it necessary to call it a reset, if the underground mark has not been disturbed. Maybe one of the pros will give an answer to that aspect of just resetting a surface mark and not resetting the underground mark.

 

I'd say it is a found mark.

 

John

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That circle sure looks like it held a benchmark at one time. I'd measure the diameter and see if it matches existing local BMs. FWIW, my luck with anything railroad related has been terrible around here. Tracks have been replaced or removed, and typically the BMs are removed at the same time. There's invariably new construction near the tracks and a fair share of marks are gone due to that. I notice the relatively new buildings in the background of the photos. Electrical stuff has been updated, so enclosures have been replaced or moved. My guess is the box and foundation were moved. I'm a bit surprised that anybody would set a mark in something as non-substantial as that box foundation appears to be, unless it was much better anchored at one time. My experience is that perpendicular dimensions such as listed tend to be very accurate and if the mark isn't where it's supposed to be, assuming streets haven't been shifted over the years, something bad happened. I think it was in that hole, but little can be proven and it has to be a not-found.

Edited by Photobuff

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Mike, I consulted with Deb Brown about a similar situation (disk reset but reset not documented) with regard to DU2086 SUPERSTITION, and was advised that a found it log describing the discrepancy was appropriate. Here's the text of my NGS log:

 

It appears that sometime after the last recovery report in 1946 the original aluminum station disk was damaged, and the disk was reset by the USGS in 1965 without being documented with the USC&GS. The three reference marks are still in place as originally described when set, and field measurements from each reference mark to the station were all accurate to within .01 meters, indicating that the reset station is very likely in the same location as the original disk. The reset station disk is a standard USGS Bench Mark disk stamped 1910 SUPERSTITION RESET 1965 U.S.C.G.S 1946.

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Thanks John & Bobby,

 

I'll recover it, and RM 1 TJ0050 (it is at the calls, but I should have stretched a tape), as found.

 

A walk along the bearings with a metal detector might pull up RM 2 and RM 4 (new AZ). Rather tall Bilby towers will be required to sight back to TJ0052 - the original AZ.

 

kayakbird

Edited by kayakbird

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The RR signal device structure that msrubble started this thread about does not appear to have been moved,

 

e26150bc-b629-4f43-b858-7909dcef3118.jpg

 

QP2005

 

even though the distances do not match the DS. Electrical cables still run underground from it and a light on the front of it is lit.

 

msrubble's photo of the bent down tang created an optical illusion making it appear to be of the solid shank

with fluted sides style, but when straightened it can be seen to be of the hollow brass tube type.

 

Original photo:

99c3cbc5-fa7b-4f4f-baeb-7d40713e1fd0.jpg

 

Today's photo:

e7d5c798-4259-4f17-ac50-f73ffda4a14f.jpg

I will recover it as POOR, tang only, estimated good to +/- 0.05 Ft.

 

I did come out of Wisconsin with several questions. Does anyone recognize this washer nail? It has the letters P and K on the head.

 

7be680d1-2539-4dc6-a99d-8f54b9aa3543.jpg

 

Two undocumented trees in the vicinity of USLS DETOUR are tagged like this. Also found an undocumented Carsonite WP pulled up and broken about 80 ft away.

 

ASHLAND CITY HALL

d6303ca8-9485-45d5-a9e4-220b96800cf2.jpg

 

This is not the disk recovered in 1934.

 

And finally at USLS CLAY BANKS the 26.4 distance from RM 1 is right on, RM 2 is four feet off.

 

d2792519-38e8-463a-8c81-58cf54126ce7.jpg

 

 

kayakbird

Edited by kayakbird

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Parker-Kalon (P-K) is a manufacturer of fastening devices, now owned by Emhart Technologies. Their masonry nails are a standard with surveyors for setting marks for local use. I would think the nail and washer would mark a street feature or be a reference tie to a property corner.

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Parker-Kalon (P-K) is a manufacturer of fastening devices, now owned by Emhart Technologies. Their masonry nails are a standard with surveyors for setting marks for local use. I would think the nail and washer would mark a street feature or be a reference tie to a property corner.

 

Thanks, Bill93,

 

My Apostle Islands National Lakeshore map shows that to be NPS land for at least a quarter of mile in all directions along the mainland so I do think that the two trees were tagged in reference to the USLS station. Quess I'm most curious about the Carsonite WP being way out there.

 

Mike

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Parker-Kalon (P-K) is a manufacturer of fastening devices, now owned by Emhart Technologies. Their masonry nails are a standard with surveyors for setting marks for local use. I would think the nail and washer would mark a street feature or be a reference tie to a property corner.

 

Thanks, Bill93,

 

My Apostle Islands National Lakeshore map shows that to be NPS land for at least a quarter of mile in all directions along the mainland so I do think that the two trees were tagged in reference to the USLS station. Guess I'm most curious about the Carsonite WP being way out there.

 

Mike

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Mike, it looks from your photo like the P-K and washer is on a tree, and looking at the topo map for the nearby mark you cited, I see a section line intersecting the lake nearby. My guess is that the nails mark bearing trees for a meander corner (which would be located where the section line intersects the Ordinary High Water Mark of the lake) or a witness corner for a meander corner. See 1973 BLM Manual, ss 3-115 to 3-123 Meandering.

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Mike, it looks from your photo like the P-K and washer is on a tree, and looking at the topo map for the nearby mark you cited, I see a section line intersecting the lake nearby. My guess is that the nails mark bearing trees for a meander corner (which would be located where the section line intersects the Ordinary High Water Mark of the lake) or a witness corner for a meander corner. See 1973 BLM Manual, ss 3-115 to 3-123 Meandering.

 

RM0781 STATION TO CONIFER ADDED TODAY

90cad77f-ab29-4a6b-90da-ea9e2b01b406.jpg

 

Bobby,

 

Thanks for the suggestion that the missing iron pipe with cap is a cadastral mark - I was thinking USGS - too bad it wasn't identified in the 1977 recovery (below). Maybe I can find a tie to USLS DETOUR on a plat map on my next visit there.

 

Other problems in the 77 description is that only one post (the station) can be six feet (now four feet) from the edge. I found the east post at 19.8 FT SSE from the current bluff, 13.8 SW of the blazed & tagged birch, and 14.7 ENE of the tagged conifer. The south post (RM 2) is 16.3 SSE from the bluff, 21.35 FT from the east post, and 28.9 FT from the birch (did not record distance to the conifer). I have photo pairs of these measurements.

 

HH2 was very unreliable under the tree canopy.

 

kayakbird

 

RM0781 STATION RECOVERY (1977)

RM0781

RM0781'RECOVERY NOTE BY NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY 1977 (WOM)

RM0781'STATION, REFERENCE MARKS 1,2,3 WERE RECOVERED, THE STATION MARK IS

RM0781'6 FEET SOUTHEAST OF THE EDGE OF BLUFF, 13 FEET SOUTHWEST OF AN 8

RM0781'INCH BIRCH TRIANGULAR BLAZED TREE, REFERENCE MARK NUMBER 1 IS ABOUT

RM0781'6 FEET FROM THE EDGE OF BLUFF,

 

2 FEET SOUTHEAST OF A 2 INCH IRON

RM0781'PIPE WITH CAP AND ABOUT 2 FEET HIGH,

 

REFERENCE MARK NUMBER 2 IS

RM0781'NEAR THE EDGE OF BLUFF, REFERENCE MARK NUMBER 3 IS IN THE EDGE OF

RM0781'THE BLUFF AND IS IN DANGER OF FALLING INTO THE LAKE.

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OK, did the college surveying class blotch, re-brand and number this 193 STATE SURVEY mark

 

PR0214

cea69500-46e6-4059-910c-b194e9730e38.jpg

 

before or after the 1990 recovery?

 

PR0214 HISTORY - 19900718 MARK NOT FOUND NGS

 

kayakbird

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