share my outrage

[+Arrow One]

If you're going to put a puzzle cache out there, reguardless of how hard it may be. You better have thick skin and an open mind. I'm not very good a puzzles, but have solved some. I dont like or dislike them. If I can figure it out, cool. If not, oh well. If I'm with someone who has figured out a puzzle that I havent, and we find the cache, I'm gonna log it. I was there, I signed the log. If thats "cheating", so be it, and why would anyone care?

[+Harry Dolphin]

There are usually multiple ways to solve the puzzle. Is it cheating if you solve it using a technique that is easier than the one the CO anticipated? Is it cheating to create a tool to solve the puzzle, rather than solving it manually? Is it cheating to use someone else's tool to solve the puzzle? Is it cheating if you solve only enough of the puzzle to get the most significant digits of the coordinates, and then use your geosense to come up with the container? Is it cheating if you brute-force the cache location, without solving the puzzle at all? Is it cheating if you stumble upon the cache location, without even being aware of the puzzle?

 

And, yet, I agree with Flask that it is outrageous that someone has set up a website to give the final location to mystery caches to any and all. I feel her outrage!

I do realize that PAF is common in some areas. One person solves the mystery, and everyone else logs it. That's pretty sad. I've seen it on some of my mystery caches. Two or three people solve the puzzle. 35 people log it. But I work on the premise: Sign log, get smiley.

Have I brute forced a mystery cache? Hee hee hee. Got FTF on it too! Used alternate methods? You'd be surprised what you can find on Google streets. PAF? Only once. Solved the puzzle, but the coords and hints were atrociously off. I'm still embarassed about using PAF on that one.

There is one local cache that requires professional tree-climbing gear, with the caveat that, in order to log te cache, one must retrieve it from its location, sign the log and return it to that location. No lowering the cache down from the tree. Needless to say, I have to attempted that one.

I will, and have, sought help solving puzzles. Though never from someone who has already found the cache.

But, what flask outlines is outrageous! Setting up a website to give the final coords to any and all who wish to cheat is utterly outrageous! Cheat. Cheat. Dolphin feet!

[+DarkZen]

some of my positions i adopt BECAUSE they are outrageous for three reasons:

 

taking an outrageous stance in an argument is very liberating for me and is helpful in sorting out what i really do and do not believe.

 

taking an outrageous stance in a argument is not only entertaining, but it really warms up a discussion.

 

taking an outrageous stance keeps people guessing. for the purposes of practical application in my local community, it is advantageous for me if nobody really knows what i'm capable of, or what i'm willing to do. in this particular case being a loose cannon is strategically sound.

The above is commonly referred to, in internet parlance, as trolling.

 

You asked for everyone to join your discussion. You don't like it that some disagree with you so you adopt a destructive, childish stance. I'll give you the last word on this, I'm done.

[Mushtang]

some of my positions i adopt BECAUSE they are outrageous for three reasons:

 

taking an outrageous stance in an argument is very liberating for me and is helpful in sorting out what i really do and do not believe.

 

taking an outrageous stance in a argument is not only entertaining, but it really warms up a discussion.

 

taking an outrageous stance keeps people guessing. for the purposes of practical application in my local community, it is advantageous for me if nobody really knows what i'm capable of, or what i'm willing to do. in this particular case being a loose cannon is strategically sound.

The above is commonly referred to, in internet parlance, as trolling.

 

You asked for everyone to join your discussion. You don't like it that some disagree with you so you adopt a destructive, childish stance. I'll give you the last word on this, I'm done.

Agreed. Flask has now admitted that she's merely trolling in this thread to stir up conversation without really intending to follow through with her claims.

 

That's too bad. I was curious to find out how many caches she'd have to pirate before her profile was banned permanently.

[+pengwn2]

I've tried to read all of the replies but wow...there are a lot which tells me this is a tender point with so many folks. It just seems to me that if you have to have the most caches in the shortest time you are in it to 'win', whatever that is. IMHO that's sad! But we all aren't the same and will never agree on this topic. Yes, I can understand the outrage when you have worked so very hard to make your caches and someone exposes all of the answers. The words "intellectual property" comes to mind here, but is it worth it to react to those who feel they must cheat to be the 'winners'

 

Who are the winners anyway. We who enjoy the hunt, the hike, the sun on our backs and hopefully a find at the end of the trail. We cache for the enjoyment, not the numbers, for the challenge of being able to figure out something that another member has devised, not bragging rights; and most of all for the journey together,at least for hubby and I, not who "wins". For in the long run those who need to cheat have to look at themselves in the mirror every day. That's not the face of a winner.

 

I do believe most cachers are good, honest people. Let's not let a few bad apples spoil our fun.

 

Keep on Caching!

Pengwn2

[Motorcycle_Mama]

....

 

some of my positions i adopt BECAUSE they are outrageous for three reasons:

 

taking an outrageous stance in an argument is very liberating for me and is helpful in sorting out what i really do and do not believe.

 

taking an outrageous stance in a argument is not only entertaining, but it really warms up a discussion.

 

taking an outrageous stance keeps people guessing. for the purposes of practical application in my local community, it is advantageous for me if nobody really knows what i'm capable of, or what i'm willing to do. in this particular case being a loose cannon is strategically sound.

 

This sounds exactly like someone I know personally who is currently locked down in a mental health facility and is a ward of the state.

 

Thanks for clearing up exactly the level of credibility that should be afforded to your postings.

[+flask]

Flask has now admitted that she's merely trolling in this thread to stir up conversation without really intending to follow through with her claims.

 

That's too bad. I was curious to find out how many caches she'd have to pirate before her profile was banned permanently.

 

i have a new puzzle sitting on my desk waiting for the cheat group to spoil a puzzle.

 

edit to add: you can troll for trolling's sake, or you can troll to help you work out what you really think.

 

 

This sounds exactly like someone I know personally who is currently locked down in a mental health facility and is a ward of the state.

 

Thanks for clearing up exactly the level of credibility that should be afforded to your postings.

 

and yet, they let me out.

Edited February 25, 2009 by flask

[+J-Way]

Escalating scenarios:

1. One person in a group "finds" the cache and shows everyone else the hiding spot. Others in the group didn't actually find the cache, but sign their name anyway because they know where it is hidden.
   
2. Only one person in a group of power-cachers jumps out at the LPC to sign the log, but all in the group have participated in planning/navigating/driving for the run.
   
3. One person in a group "finds" the cache and grabs it. Others in the group sign their name but didn't find the cache and never saw the hiding spot.
   
4. Some stay on the trail and send the youngest/fittest to climb down the steep slope to the cache. Cache is brought up to the trail for everyone to sign.
   
5. Some stay on the ground and send the youngest/fittest to climb up a cliff/tree with the required equipment. Climber lowers the cache to the ground using a rope so all can sign the log and claim to have "found" the 5-star cache without leaving the ground.
   
6. Some stay on the trail and send the youngest/fittest to climb down the steep slope to the cache. They yell down "I can see it from here, sign my name!"
   
7. One person solves a ridiculously hard puzzle located hundreds of miles away, then gives the coordinates to a local who finds the cache. The solver logs as a "Found It" because he contributed to the final, even though he never got within 500 miles of ground zero.
   
8. A member of a caching team (each member logs individually) claims finds even though he was home sick when the rest of the crew went on a run. He was there "in spirit" because he was talking to them on the phone when they made the finds.
   
9. A person uses the internet to research answers to Virtual caches before posting "Found It" logs.
   
10. A person starts picking caches at random and logs as "Found It" without leaving home.
    

I have personally witnessed or read about each of the scenarios. People have claimed finds for each of them. Different people have different levels where they would claim a find. Personally, I would claim a find under scenario 1 or 2 only (although I don't see myself participating on a mass numbers run anytime soon). I always at least insist on seeing where the cache was hidden.

 

What's your level?

 

[Edit: I forgot to say that I personally don't care which number anyone picks (especially Vinnie), or even if you refuse to pick a number. Everybody plays by their own rules. Unless it affects me... see below.]

Edited February 25, 2009 by J-Way

[+sbell111]

Tampering with someone else's cache is disgusting.

 

You are gonna lose a lot of support if you start doing stupid things like that.

one might make a case that making cache solutions publicly available is already tampering with a cache.

 

you may or may not have gathered that i don't give a wet slap about support. i don't rely on anyone here for anything, and i'm not in the running for "miss congeniality".

You aren't looking for support? Really? How do you explain the thread's title? Isn't it a plea for the rest of us to support your position by 'sharing your outrage'?

Flask has now admitted that she's merely trolling in this thread to stir up conversation without really intending to follow through with her claims.

 

That's too bad. I was curious to find out how many caches she'd have to pirate before her profile was banned permanently.

i have a new puzzle sitting on my desk waiting for the cheat group to spoil a puzzle.

 

edit to add: you can troll for trolling's sake, or you can troll to help you work out what you really think

Either way, you are in violation of the forum guidelines.

[+sbell111]

... Some finders don't understand this and impose their own non existant rules on how finds should really happen. They are wrong but don't understand how and why and it's really not worth explaining to those particular doofies. It's easier as an owner to just archive a cache if it's not fun to own anymore. ...

I wonder if you wouldn't mind delving into this position a little further.

 

From reading your post, I think you are saying that if a few people fail to find your puzzle cache in the way that you intended that you would archive the cache. Wouldn't this merely harm those cachers who want to find the cache the way you intend while not affecting those that would choose to circumvent your preferred method? After all, those people don't want to solve puzzles. Why should they care if there are fewer of them?

[+team moxiepup]

It seems that interfering with the offending members caches would be exacting revenge on people looking for the hides, more than the cache owners.

 

Hacking into the cheat site would be more precise.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Escalating scenarios:

• . . .
  
• A member of a caching team (each member logs individually) claims finds even though he was home sick when the rest of the crew went on a run. He was there "in spirit" because he was talking to them on the phone when they made the finds.
  
• A person uses the internet to research answers to Virtual caches before posting "Found It" logs.
  
• A person starts picking caches at random and logs as "Found It" without leaving home.
  
• A person logs five thousand finds/attends for a single event, one find for every second that they spent at the event.
  

Hello? Hello? Earth to J-Way! What the heck? You mean that you seriously feel that there is something wrong with those four scenarios above which I have marked in bold font? Huh? Finds such as those four types comprise 90% of all my thousand of finds! And now you are trying to tell me that this might be problematic? Who would have known? Who could possibly suspected that anyone would have a problem with this? Wow! You ultra-right-wing fascist fundamentalist law-and-order fanatics just blow my mind! You and your fascist fundamentalist law-and-order rules about how to log finds are gonna destroy this sport! Sheesh!

 

I am a victim, I tell you! I am a victim of cold-hearted ultra-right-wing fascist fanatics who want to impose their artificial rules about what constitutes a find upon poor little innocent me! I am a victim! They want to steal all my heard-earned finds! I need bailout money! I need stimulus funds! I need victims compensation funds! Now!

Edited February 25, 2009 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+sbell111]

Geocaching is not a competition.

For you it might not be. For many it is.

Yet it's been repeatedly stated by the owners of this site that GC.com is not intended to promote competition. If some players still compete with one another, that's fine. However, I am not swayed by their argument that things must change simply because they use the site for an unintended purpose.

Interesting how you had the opposite take on the abuse of the hint field on the cache page.

I've posted in a number of threads over the last seven or eight years. Perhaps you could share a link if you think that my positions are being inconsistent, rather than just making accusations.

Still waiting... Edited February 25, 2009 by sbell111

[+J-Way]

Normally, I agree with the "there's no way to cheat in geocaching" crowd. If someone wants to log false "finds" on a thousand LPCs, or log that they "Attended" an event 80 times, or log a find when they think they found an empty hiding spot, then who cares. I've long since stopped caring about YOUR numbers, and instead focus on MY numbers, or more specifically, on how much fun I'm having. I assume that your numbers are based on your logging criteria which are different from mine (see my previous post) and cannot be compared to my numbers.

 

But in some cases, yes, false logging DOES hurt some people. The OP actually addresses one of them: hard puzzles. Also similar are extreme terrain caches. How does it hurt? If only 3 people in a year are capable of successfully completing all the requirements for an extreme cache with insane requirements then those people have something to brag about. They are part of an elite group. If the third person publishes coordinates and answers to a public web site enabling 47 other people to log finds in the next year then that destroys the bragging rights of the first three. Being one of only three is worth something; being one of 50 isn't worth anything.

 

Yes, the original finders can claim that they solved it on their own while the others didn't, but who is going to believe them? Yes, they do still have memories and the "smiles" they earned (as opposed to "smilies"); nothing can take that away. But they were "hurt" because people "cheated".

 

Another case is the cache "Oh so blue". It's the oldest active cache that still hasn't been found. It's being watched by 141 people and is on 10 bookmarked lists. Some of you are saying that it's ok for anyone to post a false "Found It" log to this cache. It won't hurt anyone, right? If you think that, then I dare you to do it. Post a false "Found It" log and see what kind of a firestorm you'll ignite.

Edited February 25, 2009 by J-Way

[+J-Way]

I am a victim, I tell you! I am a victim of cold-hearted ultra-right-wing fascist fanatics who want to impose their artificial rules about what constitutes a find upon poor little innocent me! I am a victim! They want to steal all my heard-earned finds! I need bailout money! I need stimulus funds! I need victims compensation funds! Now!

In an effort to avoid being forced to stimulate Vinnie I edited my post above to clearly state that I don't care what requirements he uses to claim a find. Edited February 25, 2009 by J-Way

[+flask]

 

[*]A person uses the internet to research answers to Virtual caches before posting "Found It" logs.

 

 

i used to do this all the time!

 

dear (insert virtual owner here),

 

i will be visiting your virtual next week and logging it properly. in the meantime, since you state on your cache page that the information is not available anywhere on the web, i went ahead and found it on the web.

 

here are the links: (insert relevant links)

 

it's tons of fun.

 

You aren't looking for support? Really? How do you explain the thread's title? Isn't it a plea for the rest of us to support your position by 'sharing your outrage'?

 

it's not a request for you to share; it's an offer for those of you who would like to share.

 

it's not like i've created an issue out of thin air and stirred up controversy where none existed; it's current events. are we not about discussion here? do we not come to understandings about what our community standards are? obviously this is a topic of some importance to a number of people.

 

so no, i don't really want your support. what i wanted was an opportunity to discuss the issue. your support, when it comes down to it, doesn't mean squat. what would i do with it if i had it? go running to some imaginary body and wave a copy of this page in my hand, yelling "everybody, STOP! sbell111 thinks this is bad!"

 

although i sometimes need a sounding board to come to my own conclusions, once i have formed them it does me no good at all to have the "support" of the imaginary people who live inside my computer.

 

i feel no obligation to share with you what those conclusions are, or how my thinking has changed over the course of this discussion.

 

but thanks for taking part.

[+sbell111]

... Another case is the cache "Oh so blue". It's the oldest active cache that still hasn't been found. It's being watched by 141 people and is on 10 bookmarked lists. Some of you are saying that it's ok for anyone to post a false "Found It" log to this cache. It won't hurt anyone, right? If you think that, then I dare you to do it. Post a false "Found It" log and see what kind of a firestorm you'll ignite.

I don't believe that anyone has taken that position in this thread.

[+sbell111]

 

[*]A person uses the internet to research answers to Virtual caches before posting "Found It" logs.

 

 

i used to do this all the time!

 

dear (insert virtual owner here),

 

i will be visiting your virtual next week and logging it properly. in the meantime, since you state on your cache page that the information is not available anywhere on the web, i went ahead and found it on the web.

 

here are the links: (insert relevant links)

 

it's tons of fun.

 

You aren't looking for support? Really? How do you explain the thread's title? Isn't it a plea for the rest of us to support your position by 'sharing your outrage'?

 

it's not a request for you to share; it's an offer for those of you who would like to share.

 

it's not like i've created an issue out of thin air and stirred up controversy where none existed; it's current events. are we not about discussion here? do we not come to understandings about what our community standards are? obviously this is a topic of some importance to a number of people.

 

so no, i don't really want your support. what i wanted was an opportunity to discuss the issue. your support, when it comes down to it, doesn't mean squat. what would i do with it if i had it? go running to some imaginary body and wave a copy of this page in my hand, yelling "everybody, STOP! sbell111 thinks this is bad!"

 

although i sometimes need a sounding board to come to my own conclusions, once i have formed them it does me no good at all to have the "support" of the imaginary people who live inside my computer.

 

i feel no obligation to share with you what those conclusions are, or how my thinking has changed over the course of this discussion.

 

but thanks for taking part.

As many times as you've posted in this thread (your thread), you don't feel the need to share your position? Really? What has all the blah blah been about then?

[+flask]

 

As many times as you've posted in this thread (your thread), you don't feel the need to share your position? Really? What has all the blah blah been about then?

 

helping me find my position.

 

duh. don't i keep saying that?

 

sharing my position here would be, uh, strategically disadvantageous out here on the ground.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

 

As many times as you've posted in this thread (your thread), you don't feel the need to share your position? Really? What has all the blah blah been about then?

 

helping me find my position.

 

duh. don't i keep saying that?

 

sharing my position here would be, uh, strategically disadvantageous out here on the ground.

 

As I said on one of my earlier posts..............don't lose any sleep and get over it! This thing has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime!

Edited February 25, 2009 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

[+tozainamboku]

Yes, the original finders can claim that they solved it on their own while the others didn't, but who is going to believe them? Yes, they do still have memories and the "smiles" they earned (as opposed to "smilies"); nothing can take that away. But they were "hurt" because people "cheated".

I think most people will believe the original finders' claims that they really did solve the puzzle and did not use the cheat site. Most people will take a cacher at their word. The people who use the cheat site would likely not make the claim that they solved the puzzle on their own because they don't gain anything by doing this. Their goal was to be able to go out and find another cache without spending the time and effort solving a puzzle which, in their belief, has nothing to do with finding caches. Puzzles are ok for people who like puzzles and they are free to work the puzzle to get the final coordinates, but for geocachers who like finding caches the puzzle just gets in the way. If these people are setting a cheat site just so everyone can claim they are smart enough to solve puzzles they are certainly going about it wrong. The community will know who actually solves puzzle and who doesn't and the fact the after some real puzzle solvers found the cache, a bunch of "cheaters" use a cheat site doesn't matter. If it does it will only be because people will speculate which of the finders gave away the answer. I'm going to paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt and say "No one can take away your satisfaction that you solved the puzzle without your permission".

[+KBI]

You have a "right" to play the game any way you want to as long as you abide by the rules. Moving someone else's cache breaks the rules, publishing a cheat site does not.

oooh, ooh! i've been waiting for someone to say this!

 

where exactly in the rules does it say it's against the rules to move a cache? you will find that just as absent from the rules as running a cheat site.

 

what it is against is common practice, and maybe common decency. if people want to toss out decency, though, i'll go whole hog and fight fire with fire.

 

i'm not, after all, going to steal any caches. i'm just going to turn some traditional caches into puzzle caches. they're still caches. you can still find them. just because you don't find them the way the owner intended doesn't make it wrong.

 

i'm just playing the game in a way that pleases me. nearly everybody here seems to think it's an entitlement. why SHOULDN'T i turn caches into puzzle caches? everyone plays the game the way they want. what's up with cache owners who need to control how people find their caches?

You compare the two acts as if they are equivalent. They are not.

 

Posting puzzle spoilers only spoils the puzzle for those who actively chose to seek out the spoilers. Each new seeker remains free to ignore the spoiler, and to solve the puzzle in the conventional way.

 

Moving the container of a traditional cache away from its published location, on the other hand, ruins the hunt for everyone.

 

i'm just playing the game in a way that pleases me. nearly everybody here seems to think it's an entitlement.

You are still missing the point.

 

Nobody here is saying you should play the game ANY way you like. That would be asinine. It’s "Play the game any way you like as long as you’re not harming anyone else."

 

See the difference?

[+KBI]

If only 3 people in a year are capable of successfully completing all the requirements for an extreme cache with insane requirements then those people have something to brag about. They are part of an elite group. If the third person publishes coordinates and answers to a public web site enabling 47 other people to log finds in the next year then that destroys the bragging rights of the first three. Being one of only three is worth something; being one of 50 isn't worth anything.

 

Yes, the original finders can claim that they solved it on their own while the others didn't, but who is going to believe them? Yes, they do still have memories and the "smiles" they earned (as opposed to "smilies"); nothing can take that away. But they were "hurt" because people "cheated".

Speak for yourself.

 

My pride in my caching accomplishments does not depend on comparing myself to others. (Does yours?)

 

I have solved dozens of puzzle caches. There is a good chance some -- or all -- of those puzzles were also logged by cachers who bypassed the puzzles. Their "cheats" have caused me exactly ZERO harm.

 

I have enjoyed every single one of the puzzle caches I have conquered, some immensely. I don’t give a flying handshake whether anyone else cheated on those puzzles. Their "cheats" have caused me exactly ZERO harm.

 

Being one of only three is worth something; being one of 50 isn't worth anything.

It isn't? How do you figure that?

 

Cheaters or not, what the heck does it matter how many other people logged the super-tough cache in your example? I take pride in what I can do, not in what others can't do.

[+the pooks]

I agree a website supplying answers (cheat site) will spoil the game. I'm all for phoning/emailing cache owners/friends/other caches exchanging information as seen fit, but a public site will just spoil it. It would be difficult to resist the temptation to peek at the site when you are stuck on a puzzle, and that would reduce the satisfaction of solving it. Half the fun about puzzles in my book is communication with others and/or the owners about the puzzle. Communicationg privately allows one to dictate the amount of information you want to exchange. With a cheat site you have no control. A cheat site is really disrespectful to all the puzzle setters and solvers.

[+Klondike Mike]

I will get outraged when they start posting spoilers/solutions to your puzzles on the cache page

 

 

[*]A person uses the internet to research answers to Virtual caches before posting "Found It" logs.

 

 

i used to do this all the time!

 

dear (insert virtual owner here),

 

i will be visiting your virtual next week and logging it properly. in the meantime, since you state on your cache page that the information is not available anywhere on the web, i went ahead and found it on the web.

 

here are the links: (insert relevant links)

 

it's tons of fun.

 

On second thought, maybe not.

 

I assume that, like you, they are having tons of fun.

[My Name is Earl]

Puzzle cache cheats will receive bad karma. That'll show 'em.

[+sbell111]

Geocaching is not a competition.

For you it might not be. For many it is.

Yet it's been repeatedly stated by the owners of this site that GC.com is not intended to promote competition. If some players still compete with one another, that's fine. However, I am not swayed by their argument that things must change simply because they use the site for an unintended purpose.

Interesting how you had the opposite take on the abuse of the hint field on the cache page.

I've posted in a number of threads over the last seven or eight years. Perhaps you could share a link if you think that my positions are being inconsistent, rather than just making accusations.

Still waiting...

Still waiting...

 

If you could at least point out the thread in which you think you found the inconsistent post, I'd happily try to help you find it.

[+Castle Mischief]

Geocaching is not a competition.

For you it might not be. For many it is.

Yet it's been repeatedly stated by the owners of this site that GC.com is not intended to promote competition. If some players still compete with one another, that's fine. However, I am not swayed by their argument that things must change simply because they use the site for an unintended purpose.

Interesting how you had the opposite take on the abuse of the hint field on the cache page.

I've posted in a number of threads over the last seven or eight years. Perhaps you could share a link if you think that my positions are being inconsistent, rather than just making accusations.

Still waiting...

Still waiting...

 

If you could at least point out the thread in which you think you found the inconsistent post, I'd happily try to help you find it.

 

Freaking let it go already. As much as I enjoy your unwavering opinions and briansnat's encyclopedic memory of every post you've ever made maybe it's just time to move on?

 

Back on topic:

 

Flask, I hope you figure out what your position is. Good luck in your search and its hopefully non-desasterous yet somehow productive results. On a diminished level I share your outrage. More accurately, I can imagine an understanding of your outrage. I'm not marching shoulder to shoulder with you to the brink, but I'm curious as to your progress from afar.

[+sbell111]

Geocaching is not a competition.

For you it might not be. For many it is.

Yet it's been repeatedly stated by the owners of this site that GC.com is not intended to promote competition. If some players still compete with one another, that's fine. However, I am not swayed by their argument that things must change simply because they use the site for an unintended purpose.

Interesting how you had the opposite take on the abuse of the hint field on the cache page.

I've posted in a number of threads over the last seven or eight years. Perhaps you could share a link if you think that my positions are being inconsistent, rather than just making accusations.

Still waiting...

Still waiting...

 

If you could at least point out the thread in which you think you found the inconsistent post, I'd happily try to help you find it.

 

Freaking let it go already. As much as I enjoy your unwavering opinions and briansnat's encyclopedic memory of every post you've ever made maybe it's just time to move on?

I think not.

[+Stargazer22]

Sorry, but I just don't have any 'outrage' against people who cheat puzzle caches. I reserve outrage for true injustices in life, not the way someone else plays a game.

I don't cheat puzzle caches, I like to solve them if I can. If someone else does, why should I care?

I'm only responsible for my own actions, and my own opinion of myself. I don't measure myself by what others do, I measure myself by what I do.

 

That being said, I don't agree with someone starting a website specifically to circumvent someone's geocache puzzle. While I think it's a foolish thing to do and will reflect badly on them, I don't feel outrage over it.

 

I have more feelings about some of the petty bickering that goes in in the forums that is so counter productive to useful dialogue. But some people live to bicker. Some people live to cheat. C'est la Vie.

[+flask]

I will get outraged when they start posting spoilers/solutions to your puzzles on the cache page

 

 

[*]A person uses the internet to research answers to Virtual caches before posting "Found It" logs.

 

 

i used to do this all the time!

 

dear (insert virtual owner here),

 

i will be visiting your virtual next week and logging it properly. in the meantime, since you state on your cache page that the information is not available anywhere on the web, i went ahead and found it on the web.

 

here are the links: (insert relevant links)

 

it's tons of fun.

 

On second thought, maybe not.

 

I assume that, like you, they are having tons of fun.

 

well, i didn't post it on the cache page. i sent it in an email to the cache owner.

 

of course, i got some legitimate logs deleted just for having been a smartypants, but it was worth the price.

 

at one particular cache the subject of the virtual was a beautiful bronze sculpture depicting an historic incident. the CO wanted to know some very specific information about it that he was certain could only be gathered at the site. of course i found it all online. additionally, i discovered that one of the CO's answers (an interpretation of the meaning of part of the sculpture) was just plain wrong.

 

i told him what the correct answer was.

 

he told me that i was wrong.

 

finally i told him that i was pretty sure my source was correct.

 

he wanted to know what my source was.

 

"i asked the artist".

 

the following week i went to the site and took a picture of me and my GPS with the sculpture.

 

my log was deleted.

[+sbell111]

When will people learn that overly snarky are likely to be deleted with great speed and pleasure? Of course, that's a different whiny thread.

[Clan Riffster]

When will people learn that overly snarky are likely to be deleted with great speed and pleasure? Of course, that's a different whiny thread.

Logs are being deleted because of excess snarkiness? I'm outraged! Outraged, I tell ya! There aughta be a law!

[Quizes]

Other than me, has anyone taken the position that puzzle caches are not true caches? After all, the "game" is geocaching, no puzzle solving. Putting a cache out there with an intricate puzzle challenge is someone's way of "cheating" true geocachers out of a wonderful outdoor experience by making their brains hurt. The devils do it because they want to feel superior when they see all the DNFs logged and get the frantic calls for assistance.

 

If I want to solve a puzzle, I'll do the crossoword/soduko in the newspaper.

 

If I want to geocache, I'll skip the ones listed as "?"

[jholly]

When will people learn that overly snarky are likely to be deleted with great speed and pleasure? Of course, that's a different whiny thread.

Logs are being deleted because of excess snarkiness? I'm outraged! Outraged, I tell ya! There aughta be a law!

 

And just who do you suggest would enforce that law?

 

Jim

[+flask]

When will people learn that overly snarky are likely to be deleted with great speed and pleasure? Of course, that's a different whiny thread.

 

my log was polite and contained all the requisite elements.

 

i'm not complaining; having the artist's word that the overly pedantic CO was wrong was worth more than a smilie.

 

is there a different thread for crowing over deleted logs?

 

you're really reaching to come after me lately. this isn't up to even your usual standard. am i getting under your skin?

[+bluegrassfan]

In my area they simply call one another on with cell phones and ask where the caches are. The sad thing is some of those are geacachers who don't want that done with their own caches. I put them out, if they want to cheat, so be it. Some of them probably cheat at crossword puzzles. I have spent as much as 6 hours looking for extremely difficult caches and was finally successful at finding them. If a puzzle cache is too difficult for me, I simply look for others. I've been at this for over 6 years and nothing surprises me anymore. Nothing says I have to find all 700,000+ geocaches.

[+sbell111]

I cheat at crossword puzzles.

[+Mudfrog]

While i wouldn't be outraged if someone set up a cheat site for caches in our area, i'd certainly be displeased. I've never minded anyone claiming a find on any of my puzzle caches using "other" techniques but i would NOT want coordinates posted on a website for someone to simply click on and look at.

 

I'm sure there are a few puzzle cache owners who wouldn't care if their puzzles were listed on a cheat site, but i suspect that the majority of owners would object to it. This being the case, a website like that should be respectful of owners and let them have the option of passing on having their coordinates listed if they want.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

When will people learn that overly snarky are likely to be deleted with great speed and pleasure? Of course, that's a different whiny thread.

 

my log was polite and contained all the requisite elements.

 

i'm not complaining; having the artist's word that the overly pedantic CO was wrong was worth more than a smilie.

 

is there a different thread for crowing over deleted logs?

 

you're really reaching to come after me lately. this isn't up to even your usual standard. am i getting under your skin?

Did I hear correctly that flask and sbell111 will be fighting each other on the Cage Fight Arena show on Saturday night?

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I cheat at crossword puzzles.

That is soooo wrong! In fact, behaviors such as this, since they violate some of the basic fundamental laws of the universe, can actually undermine the laws of the universe, and can cause the entire unknown universe to catastrophically collapse into a tiny pinpoint; all of time would also grind to a halt. If this came to pass, it would be as if an occult hand had reached down from above and squeezed all of the entire universe into a mass the size of a tiny dot. In fact, it would appear to an outside observer as if it had disappeared into the void.

 

This would, of course, play havoc not only with geocache containers, but with the entire GPS system and with much of reality as we have known it. I beg you to stop before it is too late!

 

.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Other than me, has anyone taken the position that puzzle caches are not true caches?

 

Nope. You're the only one.

[+Harry Dolphin]

 

i told him what the correct answer was.

 

he told me that i was wrong.

 

finally i told him that i was pretty sure my source was correct.

 

he wanted to know what my source was.

 

"i asked the artist".

 

the following week i went to the site and took a picture of me and my GPS with the sculpture.

 

my log was deleted.

 

Flask,

I like your style! Somethings are more fun than smileys! Persnicketyness can be fun! I had one log deleted for mentioning that the final was 170' off from the coords. Oh, well.

[+sbell111]

I cheat at crossword puzzles.

That is soooo wrong! In fact, behaviors such as this, since they violate some of the basic fundamental laws of the universe, can actually undermine the laws of the universe, and can cause the entire unknown universe to catastrophically collapse into a tiny pinpoint; all of time would also grind to a halt. If this came to pass, it would be as if an occult hand had reached down from above and squeezed all of the entire universe into a mass the size of a tiny dot. In fact, it would appear to an outside observer as if it had disappeared into the void.

 

This would, of course, play havoc not only with geocache containers, but with the entire GPS system and with much of reality as we have known it. I beg you to stop before it is too late!

I figure that crossword creators will get peaved at my cheating and give up making new crosswords long before the universe collapses.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I cheat at crossword puzzles.

That is soooo wrong! In fact, behaviors such as this, since they violate some of the basic fundamental laws of the universe, can actually undermine the laws of the universe, and can cause the entire unknown universe to catastrophically collapse into a tiny pinpoint; all of time would also grind to a halt. If this came to pass, it would be as if an occult hand had reached down from above and squeezed all of the entire universe into a mass the size of a tiny dot. In fact, it would appear to an outside observer as if it had disappeared into the void.

 

This would, of course, play havoc not only with geocache containers, but with the entire GPS system and with much of reality as we have known it. I beg you to stop before it is too late!

I figure that crossword creators will get peaved at my cheating and give up making new crosswords long before the universe collapses.

Or, what it they think like flask, and decide that they so resent your cheating on their crossword puzzles that they will come to your house in the middle of the night and move all the food originally found in your fridge into the freezer, and all the food originally found in your freezer into your fridge, reset your alarm clock to go off four hours later than normal, and hide your car?

[+sbell111]

I cheat at crossword puzzles.

That is soooo wrong! In fact, behaviors such as this, since they violate some of the basic fundamental laws of the universe, can actually undermine the laws of the universe, and can cause the entire unknown universe to catastrophically collapse into a tiny pinpoint; all of time would also grind to a halt. If this came to pass, it would be as if an occult hand had reached down from above and squeezed all of the entire universe into a mass the size of a tiny dot. In fact, it would appear to an outside observer as if it had disappeared into the void.

 

This would, of course, play havoc not only with geocache containers, but with the entire GPS system and with much of reality as we have known it. I beg you to stop before it is too late!

I figure that crossword creators will get peaved at my cheating and give up making new crosswords long before the universe collapses.

Or, what it they think like flask, and decide that they so resent your cheating on their crossword puzzles that they will come to your house in the middle of the night and move all the food originally found in your fridge into the freezer, and all the food originally found in your freezer into your fridge, reset your alarm clock to go off four hours later than normal, and hide your car?

Their loved ones will miss them and I'll have to replace my carpet?

[+KBI]

Other than me, has anyone taken the position that puzzle caches are not true caches? After all, the "game" is geocaching, no puzzle solving. Putting a cache out there with an intricate puzzle challenge is someone's way of "cheating" true geocachers out of a wonderful outdoor experience by making their brains hurt. The devils do it because they want to feel superior when they see all the DNFs logged and get the frantic calls for assistance.

 

If I want to solve a puzzle, I'll do the crossoword/soduko in the newspaper.

 

If I want to geocache, I'll skip the ones listed as "?"

Other than me, has anyone taken the position that caches requiring long difficult hikes are not true caches? After all, the "game" is Geocaching, not Wilderness Trudging. Putting a cache out there with a strenuous terrain challenge is someone's way of "cheating" true geocachers out of a wonderful treasure-hunting experience by making their muscles hurt. The devils do it because they want to feel superior when they see all the DNFs logged by out of shape weenies.

 

If I want to march like a soldier, I'll join the army and go to boot camp.

 

If I want to geocache, I'll skip the ones with so many freaking terrain stars.

[greenworldfeather]

I just heard that Microsoft is going to discontinue the Xbox because they found out about this website. And Will Shortz is outraged over this one. One can find cheat sites for almost anything on the internet. When people get stuck working a puzzle or playing a video game, they are naturally going to look for help. People who enjoy puzzles will often help them because part of doing puzzles is learning how to solve them and the hope is that people will learn from the hints and cheats and be able to solve the next puzzle without these.

 

I understand that a geocaching puzzle is only one part of finding the geocache. After getting the solution you then need to go an find the cache. And I suppose that there may be people who measure their geocaching experience by the number of finds they have instead of by how much fun they had. So anything to short circuits a find is good for these people. People who enjoy the puzzle solving part will ignore the cheat site because it will take away from the fun and satisfaction they get from solving the puzzle. In fact I see from the recent thread about requiring coordinate verification for all puzzles, I got the impress that some people don't even check the coordinates if there is a verification link because they get even more satisfaction when they can only get verification because they found the cache.

 

Everyone has their own rules about what is fair for claiming a find on a puzzle. When I am with a group and I haven't solved the puzzle yet, I'll post a note and only change this to a find when I have figured out the puzzle. But I'm in the minority because most of the people in the group go ahead and claim a find. I'm also not averse to asking for a hint or from working on the solution with another cacher. As a puzzle hider, I'm not about to go check that everyone that claims a find on my caches has solved the puzzle. I suspect that in one case at least, the cache was found after the person hid a cache nearby that got turned down because of the 528 ft. rule. He then went back to pick up his cache and searched around the area till he found my cache. I don't really care how people find my caches. The puzzles are there for people who like challenging puzzles and these people will continue to do the puzzle whether or not there is a cheat site or a way to brute force the coordinates.

 

I have to say something about all this. I love caching, so I naturally have to solve puzzles. Here is my viewpoint. Unless you really have a puzzle that is practically out of your league, and no one would know how to solve it except for a geocacher, you are just doing yourself a big non-favor. I have come across a couple that deal with computer stuff, and the only way I would ever go to one of thpose is if I absolutely can't figure it out even with hel;p from the owner themselves and usually also other cachers. Most of the one that I do are pretty straightforward: Put a difficult puzzle or a part of a puzzle in there, but then put at least halfway clear instructinons as well as hints on how to do it. Then I put out a fun unique container in a fun unique place. I try to keep the container size a small or larger so there can be TB's and GC's in it, as well as somne other fun stuff. THen I try to put something fun in the description as well as in the additional logging requirement, if there is one. It is usually related to the cache in question. I try to keep the caches fun and unique. So far, for my 10 or so caches I have put out, I have not used a single ammo can or tupperware container. I have only used one bison tube, and I am just putting out my first cache that features a film container. EVERYTHING ELSE has come from containers around the house. And I am putting out several more this summer using unique stuff. One of my missions in doing geocaching is to find and make a lot of interesting, unique caches that are fun, easy or challenging, AND rewarding for the finder. I go frequently across the web to find interesting containers and ideas, some ordered, some made myself and with others. With most of my puzzles I try to put something fun in it. I am currently working on a series of difficult but fun caches. Most of the puzzle caches that I do, are somewhat hard to solve and find, but there are always good hints, as well as other fun stuff wound into it. I love being creative. So usually unless I absolutely cannot solve one I DO NOT go to sites that offer cheats for them. Hopefully this will tell other people that you can put out fun difficult ones, and solve difficult ones without a step-by-step guide by your side for anything that you cannot figure out in aboout 30 seconds. Thanks. Have agreat day. gwf

[+briansnat]

Other than me, has anyone taken the position that puzzle caches are not true caches?

 

There are others. In fact they formed a club and meet every Tuesday in a telephone booth.

[+bflentje]

I don't care who cheats or how often. As long as the FTF isn't cheated and the cheats aren't stored publicly. In other words, cheat covertly all you want. Case close.