share my outrage

[+ImaMystic]

 

it's like when your domestic partner breaks up with you and then leaves you alone it his apartment while he goes on a date. on your way out the door, do you scrub the toilet with his toothbrush, or do you just let him think you did?

 

Flask ... a girl with consequences. Bravo, keep 'em guessing.

[+niraD]

One word comes to mind for this issue ... Integrity.

Sure. If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

 

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

 

If someone claims only to have found the cache, then does it really matter how they obtained the puzzle solution? Does it matter if they found the cache without the puzzle solution?

[+KBI]

One word comes to mind for this issue ... Integrity.

Sure. If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

 

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

 

If someone claims only to have found the cache, then does it really matter how they obtained the puzzle solution? Does it matter if they found the cache without the puzzle solution?

Very well put.

[AZcachemeister]

I want to chime in here...as a person who is just terrible at solving puzzles, I have to say don't "get" the cheat sites. I suppose it's really that I just don't understand the mentality of the folks who think they 'have' to get every cache, even the ones they don't enjoy doing.

 

I don't dislike puzzles--really I don't--I am just awful at them. I either see right away what to do or I am as dense as a rock. I do solve the ones I can and keep them in a file to do when I'm nearby for other caches, and that is a pleasant pastime for a windy snowy day I won't be out caching...but those other puzzles....

 

...well, I don't know where to start on a lot of them. Nothing, and I mean nothing springs to mind as "a thing to try" on some of the puzzles. And some of them just seem like waaaaayyy too much work double-decoding this or learning how to manipulate my computer to do that, etc. I don't have a problem with people who do enjoy that sort of thing, it just isn't for me.

 

So I just don't do them.

 

Just like I don't do 5 terrain caches that call for rappelling equipment or a canoe, because I don't own those things and I don't know how to use them. Just like I avoid the 10 mile hike caches, because I can't hike 10 miles without extreme pain. Just like I avoid the multis that don't tell me how many stages there are when I'm on vacation, because I don't like to start something I might not be able to finish or go back to to try again. I don't have a problem with people who do enjoy those things, it just isn't for me.

 

But, I also don't "get" cache hiders who mind if someone gets the solution to their puzzle cache via a shortcut. The only person being cheated is the cacher who doesn't get to have the sense of pride that comes with solving the puzzle. Isn't that the point of wanting to do that type of cache?

 

I agree with the person who said they would just let them cheat themselves of the fun of solving the puzzle and let the puzzle lovers who don't take shortcuts still have that cache to enjoy as well.

 

Of course, I don't understand why anyone would want to delete a find if someone stumbled across their cache accidentally while looking for another one or if it was a PMO cache and it was found by a non-premium member caching with someone who was premium, either. So maybe I'm just not qualified to get up a good head of steam on the outrage train, because I'm not into the whole being a stickler for details sort of person.

 

Pretty much my feelings as well...other than I CAN do the 10 mile hike, and I OWN climbing gear and know how to use it.

[+niraD]

The feel good mentality is always expressed when other "feel good" variations of geo-cheating are discussed in the forum.

To have geo-cheating, you need to violate the geo-rules. According to the FAQ, the rules are:

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

Nowhere does it say that you must solve the puzzle of a puzzle cache yourself. Again, if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

[jholly]

I use to have a picture on my wall at work. It was from the National Geographic and it was a picture of the universe with expanded view of the Milky Way. Out on the eastern limb I put a small yellow sticky with the words "You are here". It helps me keep things in perspective. Now with that thought in mind, what was the problem again?

 

Jim

[Mushtang]

The cancer of the "liberal mentality" has permeated geocaching. Many people here believe whatever feels good is ok, as long as nobody gets hurt. The feel good mentality is always expressed when other "feel good" variations of geo-cheating are discussed in the forum.

I'm one of those that think it's okay that people play their own way as long as they don't hurt anyone else's caches, numbers, fun, etc. If I place a puzzle and Sbell gets the coordinates from KBI and logs the find while he's in town, I just don't see how that action has taken anything away from anyone except maybe Sbell. So in my mind it's up to him as to how much he wants to hurt himself. I don't want to try and save him from a bad decision.

 

The best examples of feel gooders arguing against playing with integrity are all the past discussions regarding "number padding schemes" like:

 

* Logging multiple attended logs on events, to get credit for temporary caches.

* Finding your own caches.

* Retirement cards

* Pocket Caches

The bolded part tells me that you have no idea at all what you're talking about. The "feel gooders", of which apparently I'm one, have never said that people SHOULDN'T play with integrity. It's not about what people should or shouldn't do, it's about what the results are if they DECIDE on their own to play a certain way. If the results are that nobody else is adversly effected, that's okay with me. If the results are that someone else's game is effected in a way that keeps them from playing the way they want to, that's not okay with me.

 

But nobody has argued against playing with integrity. If you've decided what counts as playing with integrity for you, knock yourself out. Play that way and, by god, don't let yourself play otherwise! Nobody really cares if you think the way you play is the right way or not. Plenty of people care if you start telling someone else they're playing the game wrong, just because it doesn't match the way you play.

[+DarkZen]

i'm a big fan of revenge. i prefer vengeance to almost anything, including breathing.

 

self-destruction is more fun if you take down as many people as you can when you go.

 

So sad.

 

-More pathetic than sad. And when the tide turns she'll run back in yelling, "hyperbole, hyperbole!"

[+Vater_Araignee]

once i'm banned, my sport changes from "geocaching" to "cache maggoting". it's basically the same activity, but i don't get to log my finds online.

 

what i DO get to do is submarine the spoiler group.

 

In the hierarchy of unethical things to do, what you're planning on doing is WAY higher than a cheatsite giving out coordinates.

 

But you will have exacted revenge. That should feel good.

 

i view it as exactly equivalent.

 

for each puzzle cache made into a regular, there ought to be one regular made into a puzzle. it's equilibrium.

 

and yes, i'm a big fan of revenge. i prefer vengeance to almost anything, including breathing.

 

self-destruction is more fun if you take down as many people as you can when you go.

 

it will be lovely.

I close every show with...

 

Ya know kiddies, suicide is a waste. I'm not saying don't do it, but if you are...

 

TAKE OUT AT LEAST ONE PERSON YOU REALLY @#$%^&* HATE FIRST!

 

Who knows, you may find life worth living afterward. Good niiiight.

[Clan Riffster]

If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

Exactly. It seems that, in this game, terms like "integrity" and "cheating" are naught but buzzwords utilized by folks who wish to control how others enjoy themselves.

Have any rules been broken? No? Tell me again how it could be cheating?

Has anyone acted with the intent to deceive another? No? Tell me again how this demonstrates a lack of integrity?

Stealing someone's cache would show a lack of integrity.

Logging a find on a cache you've never been to would show a lack of integrity.

Finding a puzzle using methods not approved by the cache owner does not show a lack of integrity.

 

If I should ever become so anal as to become "outraged" because people play this game, (a game utterly void of rules), differently than I do, I hope someone will beat me repeatedly about the head and shoulders with a dead lemming. (Gaia, I hope this doesn't make me a Liberal)

[+ImaMystic]

One word comes to mind for this issue ... Integrity.

Sure. If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

 

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

 

If someone claims only to have found the cache, then does it really matter how they obtained the puzzle solution? Does it matter if they found the cache without the puzzle solution?

 

Geocaching is a game. How I play reflects my integrity.

 

Integrity ~ the quality of being honest

Honest ~ 1. truthful 2. fairly earned [Oxford Dictionary]

 

By creating a caching adventure that includes a puzzle as part of the challenge, you become the cache owner. The puzzle is implicit in the challenge, otherwise the cache would be traditional.

 

By accepting the challenge you become the cache finder.

 

That puzzle comes with some choices: Solve it yourself. Ask for hints or clues and then solve it yourself. Ask another player for the whole answer. Skip the puzzle component and just go for the 'hike'.

 

Have you fairly earned your find or just scooped the prize?

What's the honesty yardstick look like ... well that depends on the words you choose for the cache log.

 

Maybe the CO doesn't give a fig that you solved the puzzle and were thrilled that you went for a walk. You get a smiley. Maybe the CO deleted your log because you didn't have time for the puzzle and just the walk. That's their choice.

 

So yes it does matter ~ to the cache owner and the cache finder.

Edited February 24, 2009 by ImaMystic

[CoyoteRed]

Wow! You guys almost have me convinced you don't even need to find the cache to claim the smilie! I mean who does it hurt? Why should actually going in the field to sign a logbook get my way of claiming I found the cache? So what if someone might think the cache is there because I say I found and really didn't.

 

How about getting to the area and claiming a smilie? Thinking I see the cache and claiming the smilie? Etc.

 

 

On second thought, nope. Claiming a smilie means you're saying you overcome the obstacle that was put in front of the cache. YOU. It could be a collective "you" as in you and your team. Not "you" as in the community or cheating sub-section of the community.

[+Kit Fox]

The cancer of the "liberal mentality" has permeated geocaching. Many people here believe whatever feels good is ok, as long as nobody gets hurt. The feel good mentality is always expressed when other "feel good" variations of geo-cheating are discussed in the forum.

I'm one of those that think it's okay that people play their own way as long as they don't hurt anyone else's caches, numbers, fun, etc. If I place a puzzle and Sbell gets the coordinates from KBI and logs the find while he's in town, I just don't see how that action has taken anything away from anyone except maybe Sbell. So in my mind it's up to him as to how much he wants to hurt himself. I don't want to try and save him from a bad decision.

 

The best examples of feel gooders arguing against playing with integrity are all the past discussions regarding "number padding schemes" like:

 

* Logging multiple attended logs on events, to get credit for temporary caches.

* Finding your own caches.

* Retirement cards

* Pocket Caches

The bolded part tells me that you have no idea at all what you're talking about. The "feel gooders", of which apparently I'm one, have never said that people SHOULDN'T play with integrity. It's not about what people should or shouldn't do, it's about what the results are if they DECIDE on their own to play a certain way. If the results are that nobody else is adversly effected, that's okay with me. If the results are that someone else's game is effected in a way that keeps them from playing the way they want to, that's not okay with me.

But nobody has argued against playing with integrity. If you've decided what counts as playing with integrity for you, knock yourself out. Play that way and, by god, don't let yourself play otherwise! Nobody really cares if you think the way you play is the right way or not. Plenty of people care if you start telling someone else they're playing the game wrong, just because it doesn't match the way you play.

 

In the topic being discussed the solution and the mechanics of a puzzle cache are being displayed on the internet, to allow others "freebie" coordinates.

 

Mushtang,

 

Would you care if you hid a cache at the top of a tree (terrain 5), and a large group of geocachers went for your cache, and one person climbed the tree, then they lowered the cache to the ground for all the other geocachers to find?

 

Imagine if a "feel gooder" posted spoiler pictures / logs to everyone of the Indymagicman "Shelter" series. Some of those caches have over two hundred dnfs. Many geocachers enjoy going back to try again.

 

 

One word comes to mind for this issue ... Integrity.

Sure. If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

 

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

 

If someone claims only to have found the cache, then does it really matter how they obtained the puzzle solution? Does it matter if they found the cache without the puzzle solution?

 

Geocaching is a game. How I play reflects my integrity.

 

Integrity ~ the quality of being honest

Honest ~ 1. truthful 2. fairly earned [Oxford Dictionary]

 

By creating a caching adventure that includes a puzzle as part of the challenge, you become the cache owner. The puzzle is implicit in the challenge, otherwise the cache would be traditional.

 

By accepting the challenge you become the cache finder.

 

That puzzle comes with some choices: Solve it yourself. Ask for hints or clues and then solve it yourself. Ask another player for the whole answer. Skip the puzzle component and just go for the 'hike'.

 

Have you fairly earned your find or just scooped the prize?

What's the honesty yardstick look like ... well that depends on the words you choose for the cache log.

 

Maybe the CO doesn't give a fig that you solved the puzzle and were thrilled that you went for a walk. You get a smiley. Maybe the CO deleted your log because you didn't have time for the puzzle and just the walk. That's their choice.

 

So yes it does matter ~ to the cache owner and the cache finder.

 

Great post.

[+sbell111]

Geocaching is not a competition.

For you it might not be. For many it is.

Yet it's been repeatedly stated by the owners of this site that GC.com is not intended to promote competition. If some players still compete with one another, that's fine. However, I am not swayed by their argument that things must change simply because they use the site for an unintended purpose.

Interesting how you had the opposite take on the abuse of the hint field on the cache page.

I've posted in a number of threads over the last seven or eight years. Perhaps you could share a link if you think that my positions are being inconsistent, rather than just making accusations.

[+KBI]

In the topic being discussed the solution and the mechanics of a puzzle cache are being displayed on the internet, to allow others "freebie" coordinates.

 

Mushtang,

 

Would you care if you hid a cache at the top of a tree (terrain 5), and a large group of geocachers went for your cache, and one person climbed the tree, then they lowered the cache to the ground for all the other geocachers to find?

Bad analogy.

 

- Removing the obstacle (as in taking the cache down out of the tree) destroys the challenge as designed, and irreparably spoils the hunt for the next cacher.

 

- Posting hints or spoilers on the Internet (as in the Yahoo Group linked in the OP) has absolutely zero effect on those who do not actively choose to read the spoilers, or who are unaware of the spoilers.

 

The former is cache vandalism. The latter is merely a harmless display of cluelessness.

 

Can you present a better analogy, one that is both relevant AND illustrates your reasons for sharing Flask's outrage? I'd like to better understand.

[+KBI]

Geocaching is a game. How I play reflects my integrity.

 

Integrity ~ the quality of being honest

Honest ~ 1. truthful 2. fairly earned [Oxford Dictionary]

 

By creating a caching adventure that includes a puzzle as part of the challenge, you become the cache owner. The puzzle is implicit in the challenge, otherwise the cache would be traditional.

 

So yes it does matter ~ to the cache owner and the cache finder.

Claiming a smilie means you're saying you overcome the obstacle that was put in front of the cache. YOU. It could be a collective "you" as in you and your team. Not "you" as in the community or cheating sub-section of the community.

I once found a cache hidden on an island in a man-made mountain lake. Had been meaning to do it for a while, but didn’t have a boat. One day, however, I was in the area and noticed the lake was waaay down. Sure enough, my caching buddies and I were able to walk from the shore to the cache and back without ever getting our feet wet.

 

I found the cache. I signed the log. I described the entire adventure, in detail, in my online log.

 

I was therefore able to completely bypass the intended challenge by simply taking advantage of an unexpected man-made opportunity.

 

According to your reasoning, you guys must now question my integrity.

 

Knock yourselves out. I’ve got some long overnights this week. While you’re here enjoying your hand-wringing moral outrage, I’ll be out caching.

[+bflentje]

Sorry, it may be unAmerican of me, but a thorough search failed to reveal any actual "outrage".

I reckon I won't be archiving my puzzles.

 

I find myself agreeing with the Clanster.

 

It might be wise to lighten up. For the largest network of puzzle hints and cheats already exists today. It's called the P-a-F network. And it's alive and well. And it won't go away. You have to accept it or leave caching altogether. The sooner you accept it the better of you'll be.

 

Although having said all that, I'd hate for there to be an "official" cheat repository. That's just wrong. But it certainly isn't something to lose sleep over.

[+sbell111]

In the topic being discussed the solution and the mechanics of a puzzle cache are being displayed on the internet, to allow others "freebie" coordinates.

 

Mushtang,

 

Would you care if you hid a cache at the top of a tree (terrain 5), and a large group of geocachers went for your cache, and one person climbed the tree, then they lowered the cache to the ground for all the other geocachers to find?

Bad analogy.

 

- Removing the obstacle (as in taking the cache down out of the tree) destroys the challenge as designed, and irreparably spoils the hunt for the next cacher.

 

- Posting hints or spoilers on the Internet (as in the Yahoo Group linked in the OP) has absolutely zero effect on those who do not actively choose to read the spoilers, or who are unaware of the spoilers.

 

The former is cache vandalism. The latter is merely a harmless display of cluelessness.

 

Can you present a better analogy, one that is both relevant AND illustrates your reasons for sharing Flask's outrage? I'd like to better understand.

A more apt analogy would be if one person lowers the cache for others in his group to log, but then replaces it afterwards. However, I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged by this.

[+sbell111]

Geocaching is a game. How I play reflects my integrity.

 

Integrity ~ the quality of being honest

Honest ~ 1. truthful 2. fairly earned [Oxford Dictionary]

 

By creating a caching adventure that includes a puzzle as part of the challenge, you become the cache owner. The puzzle is implicit in the challenge, otherwise the cache would be traditional.

 

So yes it does matter ~ to the cache owner and the cache finder.

Claiming a smilie means you're saying you overcome the obstacle that was put in front of the cache. YOU. It could be a collective "you" as in you and your team. Not "you" as in the community or cheating sub-section of the community.

I once found a cache hidden on an island in a man-made mountain lake. Had been meaning to do it for a while, but didn’t have a boat. One day, however, I was in the area and noticed the lake was waaay down. Sure enough, my caching buddies and I were able to walk from the shore to the cache and back without ever getting our feet wet.

 

I found the cache. I signed the log. I described the entire adventure, in detail, in my online log.

 

I was therefore able to completely bypass the intended challenge by simply taking advantage of an unexpected man-made opportunity.

 

According to your reasoning, you guys must now question my integrity.

 

Knock yourselves out. I’ve got some long overnights this week. While you’re here enjoying your hand-wringing moral outrage, I’ll be out caching.

I am embarressed to know you. However you can make it up to me by emailing me the coordinates to Mushtang's puzzles.

[+KBI]

If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

Exactly. It seems that, in this game, terms like "integrity" and "cheating" are naught but buzzwords utilized by folks who wish to control how others enjoy themselves.

Have any rules been broken? No? Tell me again how it could be cheating?

Has anyone acted with the intent to deceive another? No? Tell me again how this demonstrates a lack of integrity?

Stealing someone's cache would show a lack of integrity.

Logging a find on a cache you've never been to would show a lack of integrity.

Finding a puzzle using methods not approved by the cache owner does not show a lack of integrity.

 

If I should ever become so anal as to become "outraged" because people play this game, (a game utterly void of rules), differently than I do, I hope someone will beat me repeatedly about the head and shoulders with a dead lemming. (Gaia, I hope this doesn't make me a Liberal)

I think the word you're looking for is "libertarian."

 

And yes, it does.

 

Welcome.

[+bflentje]

Does anyone remember the Metalica / Napster "scandal"? To me, this cheat site situation is very similar to it. Get it for free or pay(work) for it! The Cache Owner has put in a lot of time and effort into creating these puzzle caches with I'm sure of visions of cache seekers enjoying the journey of the hunt. Now to have someone "give away" the end result after the hard work the CO did, can leave the CO with a feeling of being 'robbed'. For those of you who have a feeling of "oh well..." or "yeah, ok, so..."; great I'm glad it does have any effect on you. For those who feel bothered by this, I think that the general feeling about these cheaters is that of a lack of integrity. A puzzle cache is suppose to take you on a journey, whether it be mental at your desk in front of your computer or physical, going from site to site. How many cool "places" will these cheaters miss out on because of a lack of integrity!

 

It is about the journey, not the destination! If you focus on the destination, you will miss out on the journey!

 

HUGE EYEROLL

[+KBI]

I am embarressed to know you. However you can make it up to me by ....

If I had to cache in such a way as to maintain the approval of every single person who frequents this board, I would have to stop caching, permanently.

 

... which would also outrage someone out there, come to think of it. Kind of a paradox, eh?

 

So since that is not an available option, I think I’ll instead continue to worry only about my own ethics, and to be rather proud that my point of view is outraging the self-appointed hand-wringers of integrity.

[+Kit Fox]

A more apt analogy would be if one person lowers the cache for others in his group to log, but then replaces it afterwards. However, I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged by this.

 

That is what I meant, but failed to convey in my post. I remember a thread (but don't feel like searching for it) where a 70 yr old lady stood at the bottom of a tree, with the rest of a group, while one person climbed the tree, then lowered the cache to the group. Oddly enough, the lady put as much effort into her log as she did into finding the cache.

 

I never said I was outraged, but the topic accurately reflects on society in general.

[Mushtang]

Mushtang,

 

Would you care if you hid a cache at the top of a tree (terrain 5), and a large group of geocachers went for your cache, and one person climbed the tree, then they lowered the cache to the ground for all the other geocachers to find?

Assuming the person returned the cache to the tree after they were done, I wouldn't care. If someone in their group decided not to sign until they'd climbed the tree themselves, they still have that option. However, if you mean to ask how I'd feel if they left the cache on the ground, I'd be upset. In that case they're changing the cache for everyone without giving them the option.

 

If someone chooses to look on a spoiler web site, that's their choice right? Nobody has spoiled the cache for them.

 

Imagine if a "feel gooder" posted spoiler pictures / logs to everyone of the Indymagicman "Shelter" series. Some of those caches have over two hundred dnfs.

Imagine that these spoiler pictures were posted on a cheating site and someone had the choice to either look or not to look. How is that different than someone choosing to either ask a friendly previous finder for the answer or not? If they have a friend that they know will share the solution if asked, then they're deciding what to do with that available spoiler.

 

Many geocachers enjoy going back to try again.

How will the fact that some 3rd cacher had found it without the struggle change the cache for those that want to keep at it until they find it?

[+sbell111]

I am embarressed to know you. However you can make it up to me by ....

If I had to cache in such a way as to maintain the approval of every single person who frequents this board, I would have to stop caching, permanently.

 

... which would also outrage someone out there, come to think of it. Kind of a paradox, eh?

 

So since that is not an available option, I think I’ll instead continue to worry only about my own ethics, and to be rather proud that my point of view is outraging the self-appointed hand-wringers of integrity.

Two thoughts:

 

1) I should have included a smiley in my post.

 

2) You didn't read Mushtang's earlier post.

[Mushtang]

A more apt analogy would be if one person lowers the cache for others in his group to log, but then replaces it afterwards. However, I can't imagine why anyone would be outraged by this.

That is what I meant, but failed to convey in my post. I remember a thread (but don't feel like searching for it) where a 70 yr old lady stood at the bottom of a tree, with the rest of a group, while one person climbed the tree, then lowered the cache to the group. Oddly enough, the lady put as much effort into her log as she did into finding the cache.

So why does this bother you? You've given the eye roll and I'm taking that to indicate your disapproval, so why do you disapprove of them helping a 70 year old lady not risk her life?

 

I never said I was outraged, but the topic accurately reflects on society in general.

I like a society that is willing to help folks not break their necks if that's what they want. You're really confusing me over here as to what bothers you about certain things.

[+sbell111]

< Mushtang put it better>

Edited February 24, 2009 by sbell111

[Mushtang]

Wow! You guys almost have me convinced you don't even need to find the cache to claim the smilie! I mean who does it hurt? Why should actually going in the field to sign a logbook get my way of claiming I found the cache?

I think you're correct. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if you claimed a smiley on a cache you didn't find. Go right ahead. The logging a find online without actually finding the cache has been debated over and over, but I still don't see that if someone cheats themselves out of the fun of finding the cache I should care if they log someone else's cache online, as long as they don't hurt anyone else's game by doing it. If the cache owner knows it's a bogus Find and decides to leave it, I don't care.

 

So what if someone might think the cache is there because I say I found and really didn't.

In that rare case you're going to hurt someone elses game, but who is to say that the cache wasn't actually there when you found it and it went missing after you faked your find? This is another topic that has been beaten up quite a lot. If a cache is missing, and a string of DNFs is broken by a Find log, I sure as heck wouldn't rush out there to find it assuming that the owner replaced it and didn't indicate the maintenance visit online. I'd want to verify it with him first. If you're going to take such a big chance then are you really surprised when it doesn't work out?

 

How about getting to the area and claiming a smilie? Thinking I see the cache and claiming the smilie? Etc.

If you can show me how that hurts anyone, I'll share in your eye roll. In the mean time...

 

 

On second thought, nope. Claiming a smilie means you're saying you overcome the obstacle that was put in front of the cache. YOU. It could be a collective "you" as in you and your team. Not "you" as in the community or cheating sub-section of the community.

That's what it means to you. YOU. That's also pretty much what it means to me too. But if that's not what it means to someone else I just don't see that it makes a difference to my game.

[+KBI]

I am embarressed to know you. However you can make it up to me by ....

If I had to cache in such a way as to maintain the approval of every single person who frequents this board, I would have to stop caching, permanently.

 

... which would also outrage someone out there, come to think of it. Kind of a paradox, eh?

 

So since that is not an available option, I think I’ll instead continue to worry only about my own ethics, and to be rather proud that my point of view is outraging the self-appointed hand-wringers of integrity.

Two thoughts:

 

1) I should have included a smiley in my post.

 

2) You didn't read Mushtang's earlier post.

1) I saw the unseen smiley. I answered in kind.

 

2) Yes, I did.

[+sbell111]

I am embarressed to know you. However you can make it up to me by ....

If I had to cache in such a way as to maintain the approval of every single person who frequents this board, I would have to stop caching, permanently.

 

... which would also outrage someone out there, come to think of it. Kind of a paradox, eh?

 

So since that is not an available option, I think I’ll instead continue to worry only about my own ethics, and to be rather proud that my point of view is outraging the self-appointed hand-wringers of integrity.

Two thoughts:

 

1) I should have included a smiley in my post.

 

2) You didn't read Mushtang's earlier post.

1) I saw the unseen smiley. I answered in kind.

 

2) Yes, I did.

So, are you going to send me those coordinates?

[+RobDJr]

I do not care how people play the game. I play the game for myself, I take pride in what I do, in what I accomplish, and in how I accomplish it. After all, at the end of the day the only face I see in a mirror is my own, and I am able to meet my own eyes with a clear conscience.

 

But I wouldn't be human if I didn't admit that in my weaker moments, it galls me to think there might be people out there claiming 'free' finds on puzzle caches that I had to work very hard to get.

 

Speaking only for myself, the heart of the matter is the perceived prestige of a difficult cache. Those who did the work can't rightly be expected to enjoy sharing the rewards, whatever they may be, with those who did nothing. And, intentional or not, the star ratings do have value beyond informing on how much effort may need be expended in search of the cache. Is there anyone out there who places the same value and takes the same pride in a 1/1 park and ride magnetic that they drove up to, as in a difficult 4/4 puzzle multi night cache that took hours of effort? And having made the effort, paid my dues on a difficult puzzle cache, shouldn't it at least vex me a little if there are people who did nothing but sign the log going around telling of how they found the cache (with the implication, spoken or not, that the puzzle was solved)?

 

As I said, those are my weaker moments, and I like to think they are few and far between (though probably not as few or as far as I would hope them to be...). In those moments, I can only tell myself that if someone needs huge find counts, or puzzle finds done by circumventing the puzzle, to validate themselves, it reflects on them not on me. As Shakespeare said, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves..."

 

So from this particular geocacher, no outrage. Merely sporadic flare-ups of mild vexation.

[+Kit Fox]

I do not care how people play the game. I play the game for myself, I take pride in what I do, in what I accomplish, and in how I accomplish it. After all, at the end of the day the only face I see in a mirror is my own, and I am able to meet my own eyes with a clear conscience.

 

But I wouldn't be human if I didn't admit that in my weaker moments, it galls me to think there might be people out there claiming 'free' finds on puzzle caches that I had to work very hard to get.

 

Speaking only for myself, the heart of the matter is the perceived prestige of a difficult cache. Those who did the work can't rightly be expected to enjoy sharing the rewards, whatever they may be, with those who did nothing. And, intentional or not, the star ratings do have value beyond informing on how much effort may need be expended in search of the cache. Is there anyone out there who places the same value and takes the same pride in a 1/1 park and ride magnetic that they drove up to, as in a difficult 4/4 puzzle multi night cache that took hours of effort? And having made the effort, paid my dues on a difficult puzzle cache, shouldn't it at least vex me a little if there are people who did nothing but sign the log going around telling of how they found the cache (with the implication, spoken or not, that the puzzle was solved)?

 

As I said, those are my weaker moments, and I like to think they are few and far between (though probably not as few or as far as I would hope them to be...). In those moments, I can only tell myself that if someone needs huge find counts, or puzzle finds done by circumventing the puzzle, to validate themselves, it reflects on them not on me. As Shakespeare said, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves..."

 

So from this particular geocacher, no outrage. Merely sporadic flare-ups of mild vexation.

 

Best post in this thread, by far!

[+flask]

i'm a big fan of revenge. i prefer vengeance to almost anything, including breathing.

 

self-destruction is more fun if you take down as many people as you can when you go.

 

So sad.

 

-More pathetic than sad. And when the tide turns she'll run back in yelling, "hyperbole, hyperbole!"

 

which tide, exactly, do you envision turning?

 

the one where we don't make personal attacks? i notice that the cheerfulness police have no problem calling me personally "sad" and "pathetic."

 

come on, you can do better than that! where's your super-happy attitude? your feel-goodness? no one can make you judge another person without your permission, and the away you feel about it is entirely your responsibility, not mine. doesn't everyone get to play in the fashion they like best? this is the way i like best. i therefore have a right to do it. if i'm honest about doing it, i am a perfect model of integrity.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Someone once pointed out something to be so profound that it has forever altered my life and my outlook on life. He said "You don't own anything. You're only borrowing it for awhile. When you're gone, other people will borrow it for awhile. Eventually they'll be gone, too. In the end, they only thing that can't be taken away is the stories." It struck me because it pretty much summed up most of my life.

 

More profound than the not owning stuff was the idea that in the end you only have the stories. Let the cheaters cheat, no one will be impressed with their stories or deeds. I'll recount the hours spent disecting a puzzle, the hours spent hiking the trails, the hours spent looking for the cache that I didn't find the first or even the second time. I'll recount the people who worked to solve the puzzle with me. I'll recount the friends I made on the trail. I'll recount the laughs we had when we finally found the cache and the stories we told over drinks later that night. In the end I'll have great stories, new friends and memories for a lifetime. The cheater will have to live with the truth that they truly accomplished nothing and that's just sad.

[+Vater_Araignee]

If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

Exactly. It seems that, in this game, terms like "integrity" and "cheating" are naught but buzzwords utilized by folks who wish to control how others enjoy themselves.

Have any rules been broken? No? Tell me again how it could be cheating?

Has anyone acted with the intent to deceive another? No? Tell me again how this demonstrates a lack of integrity?

Stealing someone's cache would show a lack of integrity.

Logging a find on a cache you've never been to would show a lack of integrity.

Finding a puzzle using methods not approved by the cache owner does not show a lack of integrity.

 

If I should ever become so anal as to become "outraged" because people play this game, (a game utterly void of rules), differently than I do, I hope someone will beat me repeatedly about the head and shoulders with a dead lemming. (Gaia, I hope this doesn't make me a Liberal)

OK, we are agreed that if somebody places a traditional, their intents is for you to find it, correct?

Correct.

So if a person does not find it and claims a find log, their intent is to deceive, correct?

Correct.

If a CO finds an armchair log, they have the right to delete it because it breaks the basic rule, correct?

Correct.

 

Now if somebody creates a puzzle to obfuscate cache coordinates, their intent is for you to solve the puzzle then find the cache, correct?

Correct.

Now you get the answer for their cache from a cheat site and find the cache, then you log (logging on a puzzle typically implies you solved it) it but you don't tell them how you got the answer, your intent is to deceive.

 

By the very act of implying you solved without doing so shows a lack of integrity.

 

OK,

You decide to admit in your log you didn't solve it there by breaking the rules the CO set up and that shows a lack of whaaaat?

[+sbell111]

If someone claims to have solved the puzzle, but hasn't, then they lack integrity.

But if someone claims only to have found the cache, and they did indeed find the cache and sign the log, then where is the lack of integrity?

Exactly. It seems that, in this game, terms like "integrity" and "cheating" are naught but buzzwords utilized by folks who wish to control how others enjoy themselves.

Have any rules been broken? No? Tell me again how it could be cheating?

Has anyone acted with the intent to deceive another? No? Tell me again how this demonstrates a lack of integrity?

Stealing someone's cache would show a lack of integrity.

Logging a find on a cache you've never been to would show a lack of integrity.

Finding a puzzle using methods not approved by the cache owner does not show a lack of integrity.

 

If I should ever become so anal as to become "outraged" because people play this game, (a game utterly void of rules), differently than I do, I hope someone will beat me repeatedly about the head and shoulders with a dead lemming. (Gaia, I hope this doesn't make me a Liberal)

OK, we are agreed that if somebody places a traditional, their intents is for you to find it, correct?

Correct.

So if a person does not find it and claims a find log, their intent is to deceive, correct?

Correct.

If a CO finds an armchair log, they have the right to delete it because it breaks the basic rule, correct?

Correct.

 

Now if somebody creates a puzzle to obfuscate cache coordinates, their intent is for you to solve the puzzle then find the cache, correct?

Correct.

Now you get the answer for their cache from a cheat site and find the cache, then you log (logging on a puzzle typically implies you solved it) it but you don't tell them how you got the answer, your intent is to deceive.

 

By the very act of implying you solved without doing so shows a lack of integrity.

 

OK,

You decide to admit in your log you didn't solve it there by breaking the rules the CO set up and that shows a lack of whaaaat?

This is not a universal truth. Others would disagree in your assumption that when you log a find that you are implying that you did anything beyond signing the log. Further, you can not assume that someone's intent when logging a cache is to do anything beyond implying that they signed the log. Edited February 24, 2009 by sbell111

[Mushtang]

So if a person does not find it and claims a find log, their intent is to deceive, correct?

Correct.

I've been in the field lots of times and have looked as long as it was fun, and then decided to phone a friend. In some cases I've made multiple trips before phoning a friend. In some cases I've make multiple trips and was able to find the cache all my myself. But in the cases where a friend had to tell me where to look I still logged it as a Find.

 

I didn't find it, I was told where it was. Was I intending to deceive?

 

I've been in the field lots of times with groups of people and one of us found the cache first and then everyone signed it. Sometimes I've been the one that finds it, other times I saw someone else find it. On the times where I didn't find it myself I still logged it as a Find.

 

I didn't find it, I was shown where it was. Was I intending to deceive?

 

Now you get the answer for their cache from a cheat site and find the cache, then you log (logging on a puzzle typically implies you solved it) it but you don't tell them how you got the answer, your intent is to deceive.

What about when I'm working on a puzzle, can't solve it, and phone a friend for a hint? What if I phone a friend for a spoiler? Am I intending to deceive?

 

And in all of the cases I mentioned above, has the fact that I've logged a Find on a cache I has help with have any real negative effect on anyone else's enjoyment of the game?

[+CurmudgeonlyGal]

If you are outraged by the fact that someone may now be availing themselves of the sheep mentality to cheat on YOUR puzzle cache, all the while knowing it's been going on in OTHER areas without making a fuss... what does that say, exactly?

 

It's ok in someone else's backyard, but not your own? Puh-leeze. Either the same moral outrage applies universally, or not at all.

 

If you don't want someone to 'cheat' to find your cache -- and I use 'cheat' very liberally here, because people 'cheat' all the time -- piggybacking on someone else's Mad Puzzle Solving Skillz when you're going on a group hunt, but you haven't solved it yourself; sending someone else to get the 5* terrain cache while you loaf on the ground and have them either a ) lower it to you or b ) just sign your name while they're up there; calling up someone to have them tell you where the cache is; blah blah blah -- then you have to decide how you're going to make that happen. There are plenty of options.

 

This kind of crap happens ALL THE TIME (all of it) and nothing you do is going to stop it on any kind of universal level. You control how flask caches, and you can control, to some point, how people find flask caches. Other than that, it's beyond you.

 

Personally, I've had great success by simply ASKING that people find and log the cache in the manner that it was intended. But, I can't stop them from doing something I would consider untoward, and I wouldn't delete a log from someone who didn't play in the way I intended.

 

I've certainly had my own stroke of brilliance while out and abouting that, for instance, led to my finding a multi-stage cache in 2 stages instead of 15. The cache owner was kind enough not to delete my log... and hopefully changed the info in his cache page to eliminate the chance that another cacher might be smarter than the cache page itself.

 

Ultimately, I play the game how I want to play the game (or sport or hobby or whatever we're calling it this month), and I don't care how anyone else manages to keep their conscience clean.

 

If someone wants to "cheat", please, have at it. Set up a local group page that gives away hints and answers on the local puzzle caches. I don't care. I filter them all out anyway... and the only thing it would do in MY area would eliminate all the phone calling that's done when someone can't figure out the coordinates or find the cache anyway.

 

 

michelle

[+flask]

 

It's ok in someone else's backyard, but not your own? Puh-leeze. Either the same moral outrage applies universally, or not at all.

 

This kind of crap happens ALL THE TIME (all of it) and nothing you do is going to stop it on any kind of universal level. You control how flask caches, and you can control, to some point, how people find flask caches. Other than that, it's beyond you.

 

 

it's not that i don't care if someone publishes solutions to caches far from here. i think that's just as wrong.

 

the fact that this database is by cachers near me and about caches near me makes it possible for me to DO something about it, and therefore more worth getting worked up about.

 

plus this thread is very amusing, so i get to toss around ideas about what i'll do AND i get hours and hours of entertainment.

 

the discussion has been very helpful in terms of clarifying for me what i should do next, and, well, i can always use entertainment.

[+Renegade Knight]

...i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play.

 

Me neither. Archiving is exaclty what I've done when finders manage to short circut the intended caching experience and turned the cache into a number. If I had wanted that cache to be a number I would have just tossed it out the window. Sometimes you feel a lot better taking your ball and going home. Plus you don't have to read the logs where they brag about it.

[+DarkZen]

which tide, exactly, do you envision turning?

the one where we don't make personal attacks? i notice that the cheerfulness police have no problem calling me personally "sad" and "pathetic."

Where have I attacked you personally? I don't even know you. I can comment on your attitude which you have provided. Nor have I ever even hinted at being the "cheerfulness police". Or is that some more hyperbole? To clarify for you, I did not call you pathetic, I called your responses (the ones in which you suggested you were going to break the rules) pathetic. Two very different things.

 

doesn't everyone get to play in the fashion they like best? this is the way i like best. i therefore have a right to do it.

You have a "right" to play the game any way you want to as long as you abide by the rules. Moving someone else's cache breaks the rules, publishing a cheat site does not.

 

if i'm honest about doing it, i am a perfect model of integrity.

This is not true. Being honest about performing an illegal act does not bring integrity to that act.

[+niraD]

The puzzle is implicit in the challenge, otherwise the cache would be traditional.

Sure. But the ultimate challenge is still the same as a traditional: find the cache and sign the log.

 

There are usually multiple ways to solve the puzzle. Is it cheating if you solve it using a technique that is easier than the one the CO anticipated? Is it cheating to create a tool to solve the puzzle, rather than solving it manually? Is it cheating to use someone else's tool to solve the puzzle? Is it cheating if you solve only enough of the puzzle to get the most significant digits of the coordinates, and then use your geosense to come up with the container? Is it cheating if you brute-force the cache location, without solving the puzzle at all? Is it cheating if you stumble upon the cache location, without even being aware of the puzzle?

 

Geocaching is also a social activity. Some groups search huckle-buckle-beanstalk style. Others search three musketeers style. Is it cheating to log a cache that someone else found and retrieved? Why is the puzzle solution any different from finding and retrieving of the container?

 

Have you fairly earned your find or just scooped the prize?

Maybe that's part of it. I don't consider a find or a smiley to be a prize to be earned. Edited February 24, 2009 by niraD

[Clan Riffster]

Now if somebody creates a puzzle to obfuscate cache coordinates, their intent is for you to solve the puzzle then find the cache, correct?

Not that I'm aware of. When I create a puzzle cache, my "intent" is to create another cache for people to find, in the manner best suited for them, not to control their individual experience.

 

(logging on a puzzle typically implies you solved it)

I thought that, logging a find on a cache, (be it a traditional, a multi, a puzzle, et. al), implied that I had found the cache?

Perhaps, as a controlling type personality, your implications are not the same as mine?

If so, that's OK. Play the game however you wish. Get as "outraged" as you need to be. Just don't tell me how I need to feel about other people breaking a nonexistent rule, whose breakage does not have a negative impact on anyone else, other than those folks who are constantly in search of things to be "outraged" about.

[+flask]

 

You have a "right" to play the game any way you want to as long as you abide by the rules. Moving someone else's cache breaks the rules, publishing a cheat site does not.

 

 

oooh, ooh! i've been waiting for someone to say this!

 

where exactly in the rules does it say it's against the rules to move a cache? you will find that just as absent from the rules as running a cheat site.

 

what it is against is common practice, and maybe common decency. if people want to toss out decency, though, i'll go whole hog and fight fire with fire.

 

i'm not, after all, going to steal any caches. i'm just going to turn some traditional caches into puzzle caches. they're still caches. you can still find them. just because you don't find them the way the owner intended doesn't make it wrong.

 

i'm just playing the game in a way that pleases me. nearly everybody here seems to think it's an entitlement. why SHOULDN'T i turn caches into puzzle caches? everyone plays the game the way they want. what's up with cache owners who need to control how people find their caches?

 

loosen up, people! just because the cache owner didn't have the foresight to make a puzzle cache doesn't mean i should have to leave it without a puzzle to solve. i like it that way.everybody gets to cache the way they want, and this is the way i want to cache. if you don't like it, you can make some puzzles into traditionals.

 

 

oh, wait... that's what started this in the first place...

[+Tequila]

Tampering with someone else's cache is disgusting.

 

You are gonna lose a lot of support if you start doing stupid things like that.

[+Fugglestone]

 

You have a "right" to play the game any way you want to as long as you abide by the rules. Moving someone else's cache breaks the rules, publishing a cheat site does not.

 

 

oooh, ooh! i've been waiting for someone to say this!

 

where exactly in the rules does it say it's against the rules to move a cache? you will find that just as absent from the rules as running a cheat site.

 

 

If I may:

 

Make sure to seal the cache and place it back exactly where and how you found it. If it had some rocks covering it, please replace those.

 

Taken from the Getting Started -> Finding your First Geocache page of geocaching.com.

 

While not necessarily listed as a RULE OF GEOCACHING!!!! I would still consider it to be a prescribed guideline set by the site.

[+flask]

Tampering with someone else's cache is disgusting.

 

You are gonna lose a lot of support if you start doing stupid things like that.

 

one might make a case that making cache solutions publicly available is already tampering with a cache.

 

you may or may not have gathered that i don't give a wet slap about support. i don't rely on anyone here for anything, and i'm not in the running for "miss congeniality".

 

if caches can be "improved" by eliminating the puzzles, they can be "improved" by adding puzzles.

 

 

some of my positions i adopt BECAUSE they are outrageous for three reasons:

 

taking an outrageous stance in an argument is very liberating for me and is helpful in sorting out what i really do and do not believe.

 

taking an outrageous stance in a argument is not only entertaining, but it really warms up a discussion.

 

taking an outrageous stance keeps people guessing. for the purposes of practical application in my local community, it is advantageous for me if nobody really knows what i'm capable of, or what i'm willing to do. in this particular case being a loose cannon is strategically sound.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Perhaps, as a controlling type personality, your implications are not the same as mine?

If so, that's OK. Play the game however you wish. Get as "outraged" as you need to be. Just don't tell me how I need to feel about other people breaking a nonexistent rule, whose breakage does not have a negative impact on anyone else, other than those folks who are constantly in search of things to be "outraged" about.

Owners cache. Owners rules. Simple as that.

That said. There is no means for an owner enforce finders following the intent. Finders can jump to the last cache of a mutli, skip the puzzle, write on the outside of the cache instead of signing the log, find the area and claim a find or nullify the owners intent any number of ways.

 

When you say the rule is non existant, that's not true. Merely unenforcable as a practical matter. Some finders don't understand this and impose their own non existant rules on how finds should really happen. They are wrong but don't understand how and why and it's really not worth explaining to those particular doofies. It's easier as an owner to just archive a cache if it's not fun to own anymore.

 

I've got a mystery cache I'll probably place this summer. If you follow the clues, and solve the mystery it should be a lot of fun. If you don't and just get the final cache location from the phone a friend network, the work I put into it was for nothing. The fun I get MIA and the finders missing the point. Some will get in the forums and complain about a lack of cache quality later. "I hate park and bags. They won't notice the irony that they can't be bothered to do anything but lazy mans caches.

 

Enough ranting.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

Give it up.

Kind of sounds like some folks have.

 

Because folks will cheat at some level does not mean it's okay to cheat at every level. That's a "can't stop it so I condone it" sort of attitude.

 

Sorry, I find it hard to accept cheating as okay.

Where did I say that cheating is OK? I only wanted to state how subjective the 'crime' may be! Look if you want to tilt at windmills then have at it. Does that mean that anyone should condone any form of cheating, NO! Does that mean that geocaching ranks at the top of the World list of opportunities for cheating? I think not or at least not in any meaningful way!

Share someone's outrage, good grief! All you have to do is look at our economy and see how insignificant cheating is in geocaching. Most don't do it and to h___ with the rest.

You can do all of the policing that you want but if people want to cheat, they will find a way. If you want to police geocache cheating activities then your cause is hopeless. 99.999% of geocachers are really nice and don't cheat. I am not going to put on the geocaching police badge and post wanted posters on the remaining .001%!

So what you are saying is that a person can/should only be outraged at one thing at a time.

Sorry but concerning geocaching the only reason one should be outraged by the economy is its limiting effect and that has nothing to do with cheating a CO out of their sought after effort.

If you wanna find a traditional cache then hunt a traditional cache not a puzzle cache.

If you want puzzle caches to go away then show the puzzle makers that they are unwanted by cheating.

 

What I am saying.....NO, don't condone cheating but remember there are degrees of it! By the way, what rules were violated by so-called cheating? If you want to be the geopolice, have at it, but remember that sucking noise you'll hear is the fun of your game being sucked out of it!

Edited February 25, 2009 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

[+Tequila]

Tampering with someone else's cache is disgusting.

 

You are gonna lose a lot of support if you start doing stupid things like that.

 

one might make a case that making cache solutions publicly available is already tampering with a cache.

 

you may or may not have gathered that i don't give a wet slap about support. i don't rely on anyone here for anything, and i'm not in the running for "miss congeniality".

 

if caches can be "improved" by eliminating the puzzles, they can be "improved" by adding puzzles.

 

 

some of my positions i adopt BECAUSE they are outrageous for three reasons:

 

taking an outrageous stance in an argument is very liberating for me and is helpful in sorting out what i really do and do not believe.

 

taking an outrageous stance in a argument is not only entertaining, but it really warms up a discussion.

 

taking an outrageous stance keeps people guessing. for the purposes of practical application in my local community, it is advantageous for me if nobody really knows what i'm capable of, or what i'm willing to do. in this particular case being a loose cannon is strategically sound.

 

That makes you no better than the people who started the puzzle group.