share my outrage

[+TrailGators]

This is the third site or group of this type that I've seen. Here is the emoticon that I <3 for this subject:

 

There's a difference between working with a few friends to share knowledge on puzzles that you then go out and find together, vs. posting on a website for all to see. Since few people would endorse the latter approach, prior cheat sites have died a quick death from lack of interest. I hope this one follows suit.

 

Rather than archive my puzzle caches, I would join the group so I could see the membership list, then add an ALR to my puzzles stating that all logs from members of the cheat group would be deleted.

Good idea!

[+suz55tbird]

It really bothers me when someone shares info about some of my "difficult" caches. I don't mind cachers asking me for a hint, but asking others...that's just rude.

A yahoo group to share solutions--that's not acceptable. I can't even figure out what puzzle solvers would get out of putting solutions there, unless it's to purposfully tick off the CO!

 

We have a little trend going in our area, started by one of our most prolific finders, of going to find a cache, not finding it, so "replacing" the cache and claiming a smiley! Can you believe that!

She's gone so far as to go to disabled caches (only ones she hasn't found) that the hider has confirmed are missing, replacing them "for" the owner, and claiming a find. And the COs thank her! aaaaaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!!!!!!

[+Team Placeway]

If the hints or log entries can't help you, then you probably need to log a and move on to another cache. No biggie.

 

In my opinion, the only people that would need a puzzle cheat group are those that cache for numbers.

[+tozainamboku]

When did this become a moral issue? It is immoral to seek the answer to a puzzle through any available means? So, all those years that I have glanced to the back of the book for crossword puzzle answers that really stumped me I have been performing immoral acts?!?

I look at it from this angle: this site allows you to pretty much certify you've completed a particular hunt. On puzzle caches that includes solving the puzzle or what ever other obstacle was placed in front of the final treasure. There are "points" awarded to each of these cache in the form of stars. In the case of a hike up a mountain, it's a high terrain rating. You haul your butt up the mountain to put your name in the logbook. You put in that effort.

 

However, on the difficulty rating side there is a lot of mental that goes into the rating. It could be a brilliant camouflage job, a wicked riddle, or obscure code. The mental part is easily shared through a medium designed to share ideas. A 5 star hike remains a 5 star hike no matter what. A 5 star puzzle becomes 1 star when someone hands you just 15 digits (in many case a lot less), BUT you're still saying it was a 5 star cache for you. It wasn't.

 

Going and finding a 5 star difficulty cache when you've been handed the solution is well and fine, but when you log it as a find--a 5 star difficulty find--you're saying you've worked* through those five stars when you didn't. IMHO, it's on a similar level of false logging a find.

 

* Let's not get bogged down with being part of a team and you didn't pull your weight, or puzzles are a lot easier for some and impossible for others. We're talking about simply being handed the solution to a puzzle.

The use of the word "points" bothers me here. The points don't matter and CR bringing up points bothers me because he should know better. The object of geocaching is to have fun and not to rack up the most "points" and experienced geocachers should stop making arguments about the "points" to validate that it may be worth cheating to get more points.

 

I think CR really is objecting to lying. If someone uses a cheat site to find a puzzle cache and then logs "Really great puzzle", it is basically announcing that they solved the puzzle. Even a "TFTC" log could be interpreted as having done the puzzle - at least it doesn't preclude that the person solved the puzzle. A log that said "I used the cheat site to get the coordinates and then found the cache" would be a honest log and not a problem. Now we have had discussion before about whether lying is morally wrong or not. Some people were taught in school or church that lying is always wrong while others have pointed times when a lie would be the morally right thing to do. There are those that believe a lie can be neutral. In this case a person who lies about solving a puzzle or fails to reveal that they used a cheat site is probably a neutral lie. So long as people are aware there is a cheat site or the possibility of getting hints and answers from friends, they can decide if they really think all the finders solved the puzzle or not. I guess the danger would be that someone thought all those finders must mean the puzzle is easy and they hurt themselves trying work the solution for something that is really much harder .

 

I also have to wonder just what makes a cheat site cheating. What if I use this site or this one to solve a sudoku puzzle? What if I use this one to find the answers for a trivia puzzle? I use this one for puzzles that use the Vigenere cipher. I'm having trouble figuring out where do you draw the line?

[+flask]

i draw the line where they publish coordinates to the cache.

 

that seems pretty simple.

 

as for sites that help, many of the puzzle are all about figuring out where to search and where to find the answers. that's a lot different than going to a database and looking up the coordinates to puzzles listed by their gc.numbers.

 

i have a chemistry based puzzle. if you write to me for help, i will send you the link to a site that will give you many of the answers. you still have to rub your own two brain cells together, though.

[+sbell111]

This is the third site or group of this type that I've seen. Here is the emoticon that I <3 for this subject:

 

There's a difference between working with a few friends to share knowledge on puzzles that you then go out and find together, vs. posting on a website for all to see. Since few people would endorse the latter approach, prior cheat sites have died a quick death from lack of interest. I hope this one follows suit.

 

Rather than archive my puzzle caches, I would join the group so I could see the membership list, then add an ALR to my puzzles stating that all logs from members of the cheat group would be deleted.

Good idea!

The problem with that plan is that Yahoo isn't owned by Groundspeak. Therefore, the member names used by each may not be the same.

Edited February 22, 2009 by sbell111

[+flask]

This is the third site or group of this type that I've seen. Here is the emoticon that I <3 for this subject:

 

There's a difference between working with a few friends to share knowledge on puzzles that you then go out and find together, vs. posting on a website for all to see. Since few people would endorse the latter approach, prior cheat sites have died a quick death from lack of interest. I hope this one follows suit.

 

Rather than archive my puzzle caches, I would join the group so I could see the membership list, then add an ALR to my puzzles stating that all logs from members of the cheat group would be deleted.

Good idea!

The problem with that plan is that Yahoo isn't owned by Groundspeak. Therefore, the member names used by each may not be the same.

 

well, they're my local cachers, so they're pretty easy to sort out.

[CoyoteRed]

The use of the word "points" bothers me here. The points don't matter and CR bringing up points bothers me because he should know better. The object of geocaching is to have fun and not to rack up the most "points" and experienced geocachers should stop making arguments about the "points" to validate that it may be worth cheating to get more points.

You miss the "point." I'm not talking about aggregate find counts. I'm talking about the number of stars assigned to a cache hunt.

 

Say someone uses the coordinates to the final from a cheat site. That cache is rated a 5/1. They go and put their name in the logbook. They come to this site and log a find. They just claimed they found a 5/1. They didn't. They found a 1/1 and were handed the extra four stars. They didn't work for those four stars. They didn't work through the obstacle as the owner planned nor did they use their own ingenuity to get around the obstacle. Someone else did the work, not them. They weren't even part of a team that got around or through the obstacle. Yet, they still claim those four stars.

 

Additionally, if they use that cache as a means to fulfill a challenge, then the challenge becomes tainted. A Fizzy challenge where the only cache in that slot is that unearned find, then the claim to challenge is false.

 

If you're going to claim you've found some particularly challenging cache, then, well, you'd better have put in the effort--and not cheated.

[+KBI]

Stars are not points. Geocaching is not a competition.

 

Geo-cheaters are only cheating themselves.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

Give it up.

Geo-cheating is a little like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder or in this case the hands of the geocacher. Cheating is all around us. Why would geocaching be any different? One problem with puzzles, once they are initially solved, the word 'gets' around. It is for that reason and the solution usually leading you to the same old phone booth and/or guardrail is why I gave up on puzzles. I solve puzzles, as AARP says, to keep my brain active, but not for geocaching.

Heck, doesn't most groups have formal or informal "phone-a-friend" list? Just what are they for, weather reports? Is that cheating?

When people geocache as a large group and ONE person finds the cache, is that cheating when all claim to have found the cache? Is this a group, drive your numbers up, form of cheating?

Some purest never use a cache hint. Do those who do, cheat?

Another group situation, there is a wild dash for the FTF by the whole group but only one cacher finds the cache but all share as Co-FTF! Is that cheating?

Another group situation, the group gets to town and then sped out and separately log caches for each other. Is that cheating?

I wouldn't dare to attempt to answer my own questions but a long time ago we decided to not be geopolice. If people want to cheat, so be it. It's kind of like someone playing golf by themselves and then write down a score of 6 shots on a hole when they actually shot 8! They are only cheating themselves.

You will enjoy the game more and lose less sleep if you just forget about it. All of the above is another reason why one cacher's numbers cannot really be compared to another's. It's how you play the game.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

[CoyoteRed]

Give it up.

Kind of sounds like some folks have.

 

Because folks will cheat at some level does not mean it's okay to cheat at every level. That's a "can't stop it so I condone it" sort of attitude.

 

Sorry, I find it hard to accept cheating as okay.

[+flask]

people keep asking where to draw the line, but i keep saying that i draw the line at the point where someone creates a public database of cache solutions.

 

here's the DB creator's justifcation:

 

Basically, in my opinion, if it takes more than 20 or 30 minutes to solve then it's not worth my time. But I do try to solve them. So if I start ignoring puzzle caches then I have to start traveling farther and farther to get to the non-puzzle caches on my "filter out finds" list.

 

and his later comment:

 

Why is it so important to the puzzlers that someone solves your puzzle? If you want to create puzzles, great! If people want to solve your puzzles, great! If people want to geocache why should solving puzzles be a prerequisite?

 

and

 

Big deal, someone chose to obfuscate the coordinates with a puzzle. Some people choose to geocache without being encumbered by that choice. At the end of the day it's still a geocache that was meant to be found, outside.

 

 

i find it difficult to consider that decent behavior. i have a lot of time on my hands and this ugly little thing needs to be pasted.

[+Vater_Araignee]

Big deal, someone chose to obfuscate the coordinates with a puzzle. Some people choose to geocache without being encumbered by that choice. At the end of the day it's still a geocache that was meant to be found, outside.

 

That one really burns me! Who is this person to say somebodies cache was meant to be found?

Maybe I want a cache where I measure my hiding skill buy an extremely high DNF ratio!

Who is this person to say somebodies cache was meant to be found by everyone?

Maybe I only intend a cache to be found by a specific mentality of cacher.

Who is this person to say somebodies cache was meant to be found outside?

Most indoor locations I go to, I can get a lock in.

 

Do the work to get the coords by the intended method, find the cache, sign the log, get the smilie or you my as well just armchair log it and be a massive lamer.

 

If you don't want to be encumbered by mystery/puzzle caches then chose NOT to do them.

[+flask]

the irony for me is that i had already ignored some of the caches to which he objects because i just don't care to solve them.

 

i think my area is too puzzle-dense.

 

i also resent the attitude that we should just circumvent whatever we do not like. there is no entitlement to find every cache.

 

i've created a very big stink about it, but it gets the quieter, politer people talking.

[+niraD]

Say someone uses the coordinates to the final from a cheat site. That cache is rated a 5/1. They go and put their name in the logbook. They come to this site and log a find. They just claimed they found a 5/1. They didn't. They found a 1/1 and were handed the extra four stars. They didn't work for those four stars.

IMHO, stars aren't something a cacher earns or is awarded or is given. They're just an easy way for the cache owner to communicate the general terrain and hide difficulty to potential finders.

 

No, I don't really like the way challenge caches emphasize the idea that stars are something to be "earned". It promotes a meta-game that encourages people to choose difficulty/terrain ratings for reasons other than communicating with potential finders.

 

With that said, I think using someone else's answer is similar to brute-forcing a puzzle cache. People who find puzzle caches that way are playing a different game. They aren't cheating anyone else. They are merely denying themselves the experience of solving the puzzle, in exchange for the experience of finding the cache a different way.

 

If a person claims to have solved the puzzle when they didn't, then they're lying. If a person merely claims to have found the cache, then the only thing they can be accused of is finding the cache in a manner different from that intended by the owner.

[+briansnat]

Geocaching is not a competition.

 

 

For you it might not be. For many it is.

[CoyoteRed]

I think using someone else's answer is similar to brute-forcing a puzzle cache.

There's a massive difference. In the first, you do no work as you are handed the answer. In the later, you do all the work and you provide the answer.

 

It's kind of like you either provided your own answer on a test or looked over your neighbor's shoulder.

[+sbell111]

Geocaching is not a competition.

For you it might not be. For many it is.

Yet it's been repeatedly stated by the owners of this site that GC.com is not intended to promote competition. If some players still compete with one another, that's fine. However, I am not swayed by their argument that things must change simply because they use the site for an unintended purpose.

Say someone uses the coordinates to the final from a cheat site. That cache is rated a 5/1. They go and put their name in the logbook. They come to this site and log a find. They just claimed they found a 5/1. They didn't. They found a 1/1 and were handed the extra four stars. They didn't work for those four stars.

IMHO, stars aren't something a cacher earns or is awarded or is given. They're just an easy way for the cache owner to communicate the general terrain and hide difficulty to potential finders.

 

No, I don't really like the way challenge caches emphasize the idea that stars are something to be "earned". It promotes a meta-game that encourages people to choose difficulty/terrain ratings for reasons other than communicating with potential finders.

 

With that said, I think using someone else's answer is similar to brute-forcing a puzzle cache. People who find puzzle caches that way are playing a different game. They aren't cheating anyone else. They are merely denying themselves the experience of solving the puzzle, in exchange for the experience of finding the cache a different way.

 

If a person claims to have solved the puzzle when they didn't, then they're lying. If a person merely claims to have found the cache, then the only thing they can be accused of is finding the cache in a manner different from that intended by the owner.

Awesome post. I agree with it completely.

 

The fact is, I'm not in love with the concept of 'cheat' sites. On a very personal level, I would probably be a little peaved if my cache showed up on one. Still, I don't see a reason to be so upset by them that any extraordinary measures need to be taken to do away with them.

 

They really are no different than phone-a-friends, when you come right down to it. If I use a cheat site (or a phone-a-friend) to locate a cache, I am not damaging any one else's experience in any way. The only person that I may be negatively impacting in any real way is myself because I have failed to solve the puzzle on my own.

 

It really is just like working a crossword puzzle. If I complete the crossword without looking in the back of the book, the sense of accomplishment is greater for me. However, whether I 'cheat' on a crossword, do it on my own, or don't finish it at all affects no one else.

 

We also have to consider whether using a 'cheat' site differes at all from merely going out and finding a puzzle cache with your puzzle guru friend. If I go caching with a puzzle solving friend, I will earn a smiley once I have signed the logbook. It makes no difference that I would never be able to solve the puzzle myself.

Edited February 23, 2009 by sbell111

[+HockeyPuck]

Flask,

 

I share your outrage. A mystery / puzzle cache isn't created with the intentions of one person to solve and share the coordiantes with the remaining caching world. I also believe that if someone is struggling with a puzzle they should contact the cache owner with their thought process and not their buddy. Unfortunately, social engineering is a part of our hobby.

 

Although these are not solutions, I have a couple suggestions:

 

#1: Add an ALR requesting a detailed e-mail explanation of the solvers thought process. This probably won't stop the social engineering but will make it more difficult.

 

#2: Create a whole bunch of puzzle / mystery caches to be released in conjunction with the event. I'm sure your local reviewer would be glad to work with you on this. . You would probably be honored with a IHP tribute cache of your very own!

 

#3: Attend the event and help the struggling cachers solve your puzzles.

[+sbell111]

... #1: Add an ALR requesting a detailed e-mail explanation of the solvers thought process. This probably won't stop the social engineering but will make it more difficult.

I'm not sure that this type of ALR would be permissible. Perhaps a reviewer could chime in with his/her thoughts.

[+Tequila]

... #1: Add an ALR requesting a detailed e-mail explanation of the solvers thought process. This probably won't stop the social engineering but will make it more difficult.

I'm not sure that this type of ALR would be permissible. Perhaps a reviewer could chime in with his/her thoughts.

 

Even if it was, don't you think they could share that information as well??

[NH Zamboni]

From the cache listing guidelines.

 

Caches with mandatory requirements in addition to signing the logbook should be listed as mystery caches. Examples include sending the cache owner a verification codeword found inside the logbook, performing some task at the cache location and taking a photograph, or writing the online log in a format or with content that satisfies the cache requirements. The mystery cache designation assists finders in identifying that something extra is required in order to log a find.

 

I'm making the assumption that e-mailing your solution thought process might fall under the bold quoted above (bold added by me). It's probably hardly worth is, at Tequila mentioned above. This can easily be circumvented.

[+Konnarock Kid & Marge]

Give it up.

Kind of sounds like some folks have.

 

Because folks will cheat at some level does not mean it's okay to cheat at every level. That's a "can't stop it so I condone it" sort of attitude.

 

Sorry, I find it hard to accept cheating as okay.

Where did I say that cheating is OK? I only wanted to state how subjective the 'crime' may be! Look if you want to tilt at windmills then have at it. Does that mean that anyone should condone any form of cheating, NO! Does that mean that geocaching ranks at the top of the World list of opportunities for cheating? I think not or at least not in any meaningful way!

Share someone's outrage, good grief! All you have to do is look at our economy and see how insignificant cheating is in geocaching. Most don't do it and to h___ with the rest.

You can do all of the policing that you want but if people want to cheat, they will find a way. If you want to police geocache cheating activities then your cause is hopeless. 99.999% of geocachers are really nice and don't cheat. I am not going to put on the geocaching police badge and post wanted posters on the remaining .001%!

Edited February 23, 2009 by Konnarock Kid & Marge

[+Vater_Araignee]

Give it up.

Kind of sounds like some folks have.

 

Because folks will cheat at some level does not mean it's okay to cheat at every level. That's a "can't stop it so I condone it" sort of attitude.

 

Sorry, I find it hard to accept cheating as okay.

Where did I say that cheating is OK? I only wanted to state how subjective the 'crime' may be! Look if you want to tilt at windmills then have at it. Does that mean that anyone should condone any form of cheating, NO! Does that mean that geocaching ranks at the top of the World list of opportunities for cheating? I think not or at least not in any meaningful way!

Share someone's outrage, good grief! All you have to do is look at our economy and see how insignificant cheating is in geocaching. Most don't do it and to h___ with the rest.

You can do all of the policing that you want but if people want to cheat, they will find a way. If you want to police geocache cheating activities then your cause is hopeless. 99.999% of geocachers are really nice and don't cheat. I am not going to put on the geocaching police badge and post wanted posters on the remaining .001%!

So what you are saying is that a person can/should only be outraged at one thing at a time.

Sorry but concerning geocaching the only reason one should be outraged by the economy is its limiting effect and that has nothing to do with cheating a CO out of their sought after effort.

If you wanna find a traditional cache then hunt a traditional cache not a puzzle cache.

If you want puzzle caches to go away then show the puzzle makers that they are unwanted by cheating.

[+rjb43nh]

... #1: Add an ALR requesting a detailed e-mail explanation of the solvers thought process. This probably won't stop the social engineering but will make it more difficult.

I'm not sure that this type of ALR would be permissible. Perhaps a reviewer could chime in with his/her thoughts.

Having a little inside information about the poster of the inner quote makes me chuckle.

 

As someone who has hidden a number of puzzle caches, I know that not everyone solves my puzzles-never will, and some have told me so. I freely give out hints, some cryptic, some easy, to help cachers solve the puzzles and the 'hints' can be rather explicit if need be. I also know that cachers have discussed my puzzles in groups and traded information and they mention this in their logs because they know I don't mind. I also know there are some cachers who do not want any hints because they want to solve my puzzles on their own no matter how long it takes.

 

I also have many puzzle finds but I haven't solved all those on my own although I do get a pretty high percentage of them. No one can be an expert on every type of puzzle and if it wasn't for Google and other references I know my percentage would drop noticeably. I guess the bottom line is where you draw the line about getting information. I personally don't like the whole idea of a site set up for the sole purpose of giving answers to puzzles and I know lots of cachers won't go there for the same reason. On the other hand I don't feel guilty about using Googlet or asking the owner or fellow cacher for a nudge but that's just how I choose to play my game. Even if there were solutions to my puzzle caches posted, they will stay active as long as I feel there are cachers out there that get enjoyment from them.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Here's a thought. Randomly change a puzzle in the final cache container that must be solved as an ALR. So even if they find it by going straight to it, they'll still have to solve a puzzle. By changing the puzzle at random intervals it will make the cheat site useless.

[+flask]

Flask,

 

I share your outrage. A mystery / puzzle cache isn't created with the intentions of one person to solve and share the coordiantes with the remaining caching world. I also believe that if someone is struggling with a puzzle they should contact the cache owner with their thought process and not their buddy. Unfortunately, social engineering is a part of our hobby.

 

Although these are not solutions, I have a couple suggestions:

 

#1: Add an ALR requesting a detailed e-mail explanation of the solvers thought process. This probably won't stop the social engineering but will make it more difficult.

 

#2: Create a whole bunch of puzzle / mystery caches to be released in conjunction with the event. I'm sure your local reviewer would be glad to work with you on this. . You would probably be honored with a IHP tribute cache of your very own!

 

#3: Attend the event and help the struggling cachers solve your puzzles.

 

thanks, hockeypuck.

 

i'm actually not terribly concerned with the event. while it has the possibility of people picking up full spoilers, i think it will mostly only give hints. there's no reason that people shouldn't work together to solve puzzles.

 

i'm also not opposed to slitting workload, as n "you solve this one and i'll solve that one and then we'll go find them together".

 

what i am concerned with is a website where you can go and just get the coordinates to the caches. the particular site i'm talking about seems to be falling apart in its own stink.

[+Team Black-Cat]

i have a lot of time on my hands and this ugly little thing needs to be pasted.

 

 

Nothing useful to add. I just though this was really funny.

[+KBI]

Geocaching is not a competition.

For you it might not be. For many it is.

Only if they choose to make a competition out of something that was never intended to be one.

 

Some folks also like to compete with others to see who can tie their shoes the fastest. That doesn’t make the rest of us shoe-wearers competitors. It also doesn’t make us "cheaters" if we wear loafers.

 

For those who do not choose to join the informal and unofficial ad-hoc contests that spring up among Geocachers, any discussion of "cheating" is meaningless.

 

Those who do choose to compete should probably decide beforehand among themselves what the rules are going to be – and should also brace themselves for inevitable disappointment if they truly expect ALL geocachers to follow their made-up rules.

 

Anything can be made into a competition, a contest, a race or a rivalry, but Geocaching is not inherently competitive.

 

 

On the other hand:

 

here's the DB creator's justifcation:

 

Why is it so important to the puzzlers that someone solves your puzzle? If you want to create puzzles, great! If people want to solve your puzzles, great! If people want to geocache why should solving puzzles be a prerequisite?

and

 

Big deal, someone chose to obfuscate the coordinates with a puzzle. Some people choose to geocache without being encumbered by that choice. At the end of the day it's still a geocache that was meant to be found, outside.

I think anyone who bypasses a puzzle just to get to a cache container out of a sense of entitlement is completely missing the point of puzzle caches, and they have my deepest sympathy for their cluelessness.

 

No one has an inherent right to find a puzzle cache.

[Clan Riffster]

Where did I say that cheating is OK?

Just wanted to address this bit, extracted from a well written response.

The term "Cheating" typically implies that rules are being broken in such a way as to give a player an advantage.

Are there any rules being broken here? I remember there used to be a little quip in the Getting Started section, which read to the effect of, "What are the rules of Geocaching?" which mentioned finding the cache, signing the log and trade ethics, but I can't find that quip right now. No mention of puzzle solving moral dilemmas. So, I had to revert to the guidelines. I don't see anything in the guidelines which requires that I discover the solution to a puzzle using the methods employed by the hider.

 

Is cheating really an appropriate term?

 

We've got a local who has risen to fame on his ability to circumvent puzzles and multis, ferreting out the final with no outside help.

How he does this is beyond me, but he certainly earns my respect. Conducting a thorough search of a 6000 acre wilderness area seems a lot harder than working through most puzzles I've seen. For those whose kilts are wadded in outrage, would you say this cacher was cheating? I wouldn't. On the other end of the spectrum are these folks who are getting the final locations to puzzles from a secondary website. Since there are absolutely no rules or guidelines even hinting that this behavior is verboten, I wouldn't apply the cheating label to them either.

 

Do I agree with this behavior? Definitely not. Would I peruse a Yahoo group for puzzle solutions? Definitely not. Is doing so cheating? Absolutely not.

Boorish maybe, but not likely to earn them an eternity in a lake of fire.

[Quizes]

Like another poster before me, I'm just no good at puzzles. I don't know any other geocachers, so I could not phone a friend or "cheat" if I wanted to. I just skip those caches.

 

I hope that all puzzle cache owners share the OP's outrage and permanently archive ALL puzzle caches. Maybe even geocaching.com could outlaw puzzle caches because of rampant cheating.

 

Where is the group? I want to join, if only for the slim possibility that puzzle caches will fall out of favor forever.

 

Up with the cheaters....down with puzzle caches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hell no, we won't solve!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Free the caches!!!!!!!!!!

 

Power to the puzzled!!!!!!!

 

Cheaters always win, winners always cheat!!!!!!!!!!

[+Kit Fox]

Could this be a new plot to increase the Maximum Smilies per Hour. When "power cachers" runout of 1/1s and 1.5/1.5s to find, what do they have left to find? I've known for many years that a certain group would plan a power caching trip, and they would beg the solutions to puzzle caches from previous finders. They would then share the solution with the entire group. I've had days where a group found a difficult puzzle cache of mine, because someone shared the answer. They signed the log, not much I could do at that point.

 

My solution to foil the maximum smile per hour crowd is to hide more caches that require hiking this weeded out 99% of the group from finding these caches.

[+flask]

 

 

My solution to foil the maximum smile per hour crowd is to hide more caches that require hiking this weeded out 99% of the group from finding these caches.

 

yeah, but the cheat group has no aversion to long walks.

 

that's why for every puzzle solution they post, i'll be moving one of their caches closer to the parking lot.

 

...and putting a really hard puzzle in its former location, so they can (maybe ) find it and put it back.

[Mr.Yuck]

Flask,

 

I share your outrage. A mystery / puzzle cache isn't created with the intentions of one person to solve and share the coordiantes with the remaining caching world. I also believe that if someone is struggling with a puzzle they should contact the cache owner with their thought process and not their buddy. Unfortunately, social engineering is a part of our hobby.

 

Although these are not solutions, I have a couple suggestions:

 

#1: Add an ALR requesting a detailed e-mail explanation of the solvers thought process. This probably won't stop the social engineering but will make it more difficult.

 

#2: Create a whole bunch of puzzle / mystery caches to be released in conjunction with the event. I'm sure your local reviewer would be glad to work with you on this. . You would probably be honored with a IHP tribute cache of your very own!

 

#3: Attend the event and help the struggling cachers solve your puzzles.

 

thanks, hockeypuck.

 

i'm actually not terribly concerned with the event. while it has the possibility of people picking up full spoilers, i think it will mostly only give hints. there's no reason that people shouldn't work together to solve puzzles.

 

i'm also not opposed to slitting workload, as n "you solve this one and i'll solve that one and then we'll go find them together".

 

what i am concerned with is a website where you can go and just get the coordinates to the caches. the particular site i'm talking about seems to be falling apart in its own stink.

 

I don't know why, but I can read the messages in the puzzle cheater group without joining. I do have a Yahoo account, but I didn't think I'd be able to read them. It pretty much looks like the work of one guy, who seems to be pretty new to geocaching. He talks in one post how he's never placed a cache. I think it will die out no problem. The actual posting of the solution to the one cache seems to have gone over like a lead balloon.

 

I can also read the Vermont geocaching Yahoo group, which is referenced plenty in the cheater group. Lots o' drama there, and Flask is getting surprisingly little support.

 

Just some observations from an outsider, thought I'd share.

[+KBI]

My solution to foil the maximum smile per hour crowd is to hide more caches that require hiking this weeded out 99% of the group from finding these caches.

yeah, but the cheat group has no aversion to long walks.

 

that's why for every puzzle solution they post, i'll be moving one of their caches closer to the parking lot.

 

...and putting a really hard puzzle in its former location, so they can (maybe ) find it and put it back.

And get yourself permanently banninated from the website? Yep, that’ll teach 'em a lesson.

[+briansnat]

Yet it's been repeatedly stated by the owners of this site that GC.com is not intended to promote competition. If some players still compete with one another, that's fine. However, I am not swayed by their argument that things must change simply because they use the site for an unintended purpose.

 

Interesting how you had the opposite take on the abuse of the hint field on the cache page.

[+flask]

My solution to foil the maximum smile per hour crowd is to hide more caches that require hiking this weeded out 99% of the group from finding these caches.

yeah, but the cheat group has no aversion to long walks.

 

that's why for every puzzle solution they post, i'll be moving one of their caches closer to the parking lot.

 

...and putting a really hard puzzle in its former location, so they can (maybe ) find it and put it back.

And get yourself permanently banninated from the website? Yep, that’ll teach 'em a lesson.

 

once i'm banned, my sport changes from "geocaching" to "cache maggoting". it's basically the same activity, but i don't get to log my finds online.

 

what i DO get to do is submarine the spoiler group.

[+niraD]

I think using someone else's answer is similar to brute-forcing a puzzle cache.

There's a massive difference. In the first, you do no work as you are handed the answer. In the later, you do all the work and you provide the answer.

 

It's kind of like you either provided your own answer on a test or looked over your neighbor's shoulder.

Except that geocaching isn't a test.

 

Yes, there's a difference between using someone else's solution and brute-forcing a puzzle. And scraping puzzle solutions from a "cheat" site is different from finding a cache while tagging along with someone who solved the puzzle, which is different from finding a cache using your spouse's puzzle solution and signing the log with the handle that the two of you share, which is different from finding the cache while looking for a place to hide your own, and so on.

 

But all these experiences share one thing: they are not the "solve the puzzle yourself" experience. Actually, they share another thing: the cacher found the container and signed the log.

 

I personally enjoy puzzle caches, and I haven't logged any that I haven't solved. I hope that others enjoy solving my puzzles and finding my caches. But I'm not outraged when someone logs a puzzle cache without solving the puzzle, any more than I would be outraged by someone using their PAF, or by one person finding a cache and letting everyone else in the group sign it without actually finding it themselves.

[+DarkZen]

that's why for every puzzle solution they post, i'll be moving one of their caches closer to the parking lot.

 

...and putting a really hard puzzle in its former location, so they can (maybe ) find it and put it back.

::nevermind::

Edited February 24, 2009 by DarkZen and Beautiful

[+KBI]

My solution to foil the maximum smile per hour crowd is to hide more caches that require hiking this weeded out 99% of the group from finding these caches.

yeah, but the cheat group has no aversion to long walks.

 

that's why for every puzzle solution they post, i'll be moving one of their caches closer to the parking lot.

 

...and putting a really hard puzzle in its former location, so they can (maybe ) find it and put it back.

And get yourself permanently banninated from the website? Yep, that’ll teach 'em a lesson.

 

once i'm banned, my sport changes from "geocaching" to "cache maggoting". it's basically the same activity, but i don't get to log my finds online.

 

what i DO get to do is submarine the spoiler group.

I don’t share your outrage, but if I were troubled about anything, I’d be far more concerned about your joking about vandalizing caches – and giving the real cache maggots ideas – than about people swapping around puzzle solutions.

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

once i'm banned, my sport changes from "geocaching" to "cache maggoting". it's basically the same activity, but i don't get to log my finds online.

 

what i DO get to do is submarine the spoiler group.

 

In the hierarchy of unethical things to do, what you're planning on doing is WAY higher than a cheatsite giving out coordinates.

 

But you will have exacted revenge. That should feel good.

[+ImaMystic]

One word comes to mind for this issue ... Integrity.

 

Clues are hints. Answers are solutions. One choice makes it easier ... the other lacks integrity.

 

Looking up a single word for the crossword isn't the same as filling in all the blanks from the solution. I might PAF for a clue but not the location.

 

Cheating is subjective. I think being given all the answers stinks. Why even do it if you don't want to participate? But that is a personal choice.

 

For many years I've worked with teenagers and have observed that many kids like to cheat. It's easy and it brings immediate rewards. But it lacks integrity. On an assignment cheaters get the same mark as the kid who did the work for themselves. Come test or exam the kid who did the work will pass and the kid who charmed the homework or essay out of their friends will usually flunk.

 

Integrity, if you've got it ... well you get it. If you don't got it, you might wonder what all the fuss was about.

[+flask]

once i'm banned, my sport changes from "geocaching" to "cache maggoting". it's basically the same activity, but i don't get to log my finds online.

 

what i DO get to do is submarine the spoiler group.

 

In the hierarchy of unethical things to do, what you're planning on doing is WAY higher than a cheatsite giving out coordinates.

 

But you will have exacted revenge. That should feel good.

 

i view it as exactly equivalent.

 

for each puzzle cache made into a regular, there ought to be one regular made into a puzzle. it's equilibrium.

 

and yes, i'm a big fan of revenge. i prefer vengeance to almost anything, including breathing.

 

self-destruction is more fun if you take down as many people as you can when you go.

 

it will be lovely.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

So sad.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Motorcycle_Mama

[+flask]

So sad.

 

hey, with a little attitude adjustment i bet you can manage to be happy about it.

 

come on, where's your enthusiasm? let's see that sunny smile!

[Mr.Yuck]

once i'm banned, my sport changes from "geocaching" to "cache maggoting". it's basically the same activity, but i don't get to log my finds online.

 

what i DO get to do is submarine the spoiler group.

 

In the hierarchy of unethical things to do, what you're planning on doing is WAY higher than a cheatsite giving out coordinates.

 

But you will have exacted revenge. That should feel good.

 

i view it as exactly equivalent.

 

for each puzzle cache made into a regular, there ought to be one regular made into a puzzle. it's equilibrium.

 

and yes, i'm a big fan of revenge. i prefer vengeance to almost anything, including breathing.

 

self-destruction is more fun if you take down as many people as you can when you go.

 

it will be lovely.

 

Surely, you can't be serious. As I said after reading the cheater groups message board, it's really very small, with only a handful of people expressing the desire to cheat. I believe it's almost dead already, and will fade into oblivion like, oh say, about 1,000,000 other Yahoo Groups.

[+flask]

 

Surely, you can't be serious.

 

that right there is the key.

 

i am both dead serious and not serious at all, running concurrently. for those of you whose minds didn't blow apart a few years back, you may have trouble grasping that.

 

it's like when your domestic partner breaks up with you and then leaves you alone it his apartment while he goes on a date. on your way out the door, do you scrub the toilet with his toothbrush, or do you just let him think you did?

[+Kit Fox]

One word comes to mind for this issue ... Integrity.

 

Clues are hints. Answers are solutions. One choice makes it easier ... the other lacks integrity.

 

Looking up a single word for the crossword isn't the same as filling in all the blanks from the solution. I might PAF for a clue but not the location.

 

Cheating is subjective. I think being given all the answers stinks. Why even do it if you don't want to participate? But that is a personal choice.

 

For many years I've worked with teenagers and have observed that many kids like to cheat. It's easy and it brings immediate rewards. But it lacks integrity. On an assignment cheaters get the same mark as the kid who did the work for themselves. Come test or exam the kid who did the work will pass and the kid who charmed the homework or essay out of their friends will usually flunk.

 

Integrity, if you've got it ... well you get it. If you don't got it, you might wonder what all the fuss was about.

 

The cancer of the "liberal mentality" has permeated geocaching. Many people here believe whatever feels good is ok, as long as nobody gets hurt. The feel good mentality is always expressed when other "feel good" variations of geo-cheating are discussed in the forum.

 

The best examples of feel gooders arguing against playing with integrity are all the past discussions regarding "number padding schemes" like:

 

* Logging multiple attended logs on events, to get credit for temporary caches.

* Finding your own caches.

* Retirement cards

* Pocket Caches

Edited February 24, 2009 by Kit Fox

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

 

Surely, you can't be serious.

 

that right there is the key.

 

i am both dead serious and not serious at all, running concurrently. for those of you whose minds didn't blow apart a few years back, you may have trouble grasping that.

 

it's like when your domestic partner breaks up with you and then leaves you alone it his apartment while he goes on a date. on your way out the door, do you scrub the toilet with his toothbrush, or do you just let him think you did?

Hmmm... I must say... that particularly with the latest wave of posts from flask, this thread has taken a turn for the weird, and also toward a tenor of hostility. To me, this is very strange. In fact, in light of these peculiar developments in the thread, I must say that it appears to me as if an occult hand had reached down from above and moved the players like pawns upon some giant chessboard, all for the sole purpose of turning this tone of thread toward the macabre accompanied by a tinge of hostility.

 

In fact, I am feeling ever so slight a case of vertigo and emotional discomfort due to this latest turn of events, and I find that I must go into my laboratory forthwith and drink an 18 ounce mugful of highly radioactive water, enriched with radon and radon progeny, and exhibiting a radiance of at least 140,000 pCi/L, from my radioactive water percolator/dispenser. God bless those little chunks of uranium ore and thorium ore sitting faithfully in my water dispenser, for the progeny of the radon that they steadily and faithfully emit help to soothe my frazzled nerves!

 

.

[+MountainRacer]

Hmmm... I must say... that particularly with the latest wave of posts from flask, this thread has taken a turn for the weird, and also toward a tenor of hostility. To me, this is very strange. In fact, in light of these peculiar developments in the thread, I must say that it appears to me as if an occult hand had reached down from above and moved the players like pawns upon some giant chessboard, all for the sole purpose of turning this tone of thread toward the macabre accompanied by a tinge of hostility.

(gasp) Another member of the Order!