+flask Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 this morning my geocaching group received this message: I've been thinking about something for a while, a place to share hints and solutions to puzzles. As an example, I have set up a Yahoo group to show what it could look like: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoPuzzleSpoiler/join The idea is to first provide a *useful* hint, and then the answer. Check out the database on the group site. It would be like an on-going virtual version of the "(name removed) Event" I expect to get some negative feed back from the prolific puzzle creators out there. The NOMEX suit is on, flame away! i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play. Quote Link to comment
Fonzeroth Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 While I agree with you on the outrage part, I don't think you should archive any caches. There are allways going to be people that don't want to work to hard for a cache, and they're not going to simply limit themselves to easy caches. But there are those of us out there that love a good puzzle and want to be stumped once in a while (how else will we learn?). There might be people who are are just cheating and finding spoilers on some yahoo group to find a cache, but archiving a good cache would also hurt fellow puzzle lovers, probably more than it would hurt the cheaters. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Sorry, it may be unAmerican of me, but a thorough search failed to reveal any actual "outrage". I reckon I won't be archiving my puzzles. Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 i wouldn't expect you to be archiving YOUR puzzles; it's my local group that's doing this. Quote Link to comment
+WatchDog2020 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 i wouldn't expect you to be archiving YOUR puzzles; it's my local group that's doing this. I agree it's not very nice of them. If I were you I'd make a 5/5 puzzle cache that was impossible to solve just to drive them nuts. When I say Impossible, I mean there is no way to solve it because there is no solution. OK, that isn't ethical I guess either Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) . When I say Impossible, I mean there is no way to solve it because there is no solution. OK, that isn't ethical I guess either i've thought of that, and i've also thought of moving the caches every few weeks. we already have a cacher in our neck of the woods that puts out puzzles for which you have to recognize his mother and know what restaurant he likes. for a while i toyed with hiding a cache for which you could only get the solution by calling me at home. i have an unlisted number and i habitually do not answer it. the cache page would have some garbled nonsense that doesn't lead to anything at all, but looks like it does. edit to add: oooh! or i could put out a puzzle called "let's play ESP" and you have to sense what coordinates i'm thinking of! Edited February 21, 2009 by flask Quote Link to comment
+Pax42 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I have a local group of cachers that also like to provide one another with the answers to puzzle caches. I know each one of them well and have even been asked for assistance and offered answers. I helped one time awhile back and felt bad about it afterword. Since then, I politely turn down all of the requests and all though it does annoy me a little, especially when its one of mine they're trying to figure out, I've learned to accept they're going to continue doing it. Having said that, I really would be PO'd if someone set up a website giving away all the puzzle cache coords in the area! Quote Link to comment
CoyoteRed Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 As the hobby evolves it is clear that it sometimes evolves in an unwanted direction. This is the second cheat site I've heard of. Some have expressed that they will archive any cache they become aware that the finder used a cheat off that site. That is their prerogative. That might be where the game takes us. The only person you can control is yourself. You can attempt to persuade others to varying degrees, but you can't control them. Of course, you can delete any log you deem necessary on your cache page, but you can't prevent them from logging again. You certainly can't prevent folks from sharing puzzle solutions, but you can discourage it. If you're so inclined, there are various remedies beyond simple archiving of caches. Some may even be considered draconian. It's up to you to figure out how far you want to go. Here's the thing, enforcement of "no cheating" is about as effective and difficult as stopping a maggot. Once it goes underground how are you going to determine who cheated and who didn't? Quote Link to comment
+Too Tall John Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) Flask, I really think you need to go with the flow with this. I mean, this happens all the time in geocaching backrooms anyways. Why fight it? There is only one solution. Congratulate them on their clever trickery. Join their group. Post solutions to all your own puzzles. Make sure the solutions are wrong. Seriously, if you archive your puzzles, you'll only be punishing the true puzzlers, who are your audience when you create a puzzle in the first place. (I wasn't going to post any smiley in this response, but I decided someone had to make up for the lack of smileys in flask's posts not to mention some people don't seem to understand that you are joking unless you use them. Well, maybe I wasn't joking about the posting wrong solutions part...) Edited February 21, 2009 by Too Tall John Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 The only person you can control is yourself. You can attempt to persuade others to varying degrees, but you can't control them. yep. that's why i've come to the conclusion that it's time for me to pick up my caches and move on. i can't control the cheating, but i CAN control whether or not people will cheat on MY caches. Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 This is the third site or group of this type that I've seen. Here is the emoticon that I <3 for this subject: There's a difference between working with a few friends to share knowledge on puzzles that you then go out and find together, vs. posting on a website for all to see. Since few people would endorse the latter approach, prior cheat sites have died a quick death from lack of interest. I hope this one follows suit. Rather than archive my puzzle caches, I would join the group so I could see the membership list, then add an ALR to my puzzles stating that all logs from members of the cheat group would be deleted. Quote Link to comment
+WatchDog2020 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) GC1GNH8 was just shut down by the CO because of the cheat site Edit - the person running the group is listing the caches by number and providing 'clues'. If you don't want to do the puzzle even with the 'clue', you just click the file and it gives the final coords. Edited February 21, 2009 by WatchDog2020 Quote Link to comment
+Team O-Zone Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Please don't archive your puzzles!!! Some people will always take the "short cuts" in life and never know the true satisfation of using your brain to locate the answers. Some people like Sudoku or the Sunday Cross Word in the news paper. Some people will save that paper 1 week and "do" the puzzle with the answers in hand. I personally like the advise from Too Tall John. Join the group and "give the answers" out. When they figure our that it's incorrect, someone will have to "use their bain" to get the right answers. Maybe then you can comment on how good it was to get the real satisfaction of doing it yourself. Quote Link to comment
Neos2 Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I want to chime in here...as a person who is just terrible at solving puzzles, I have to say don't "get" the cheat sites. I suppose it's really that I just don't understand the mentality of the folks who think they 'have' to get every cache, even the ones they don't enjoy doing. I don't dislike puzzles--really I don't--I am just awful at them. I either see right away what to do or I am as dense as a rock. I do solve the ones I can and keep them in a file to do when I'm nearby for other caches, and that is a pleasant pastime for a windy snowy day I won't be out caching...but those other puzzles.... ...well, I don't know where to start on a lot of them. Nothing, and I mean nothing springs to mind as "a thing to try" on some of the puzzles. And some of them just seem like waaaaayyy too much work double-decoding this or learning how to manipulate my computer to do that, etc. I don't have a problem with people who do enjoy that sort of thing, it just isn't for me. So I just don't do them. Just like I don't do 5 terrain caches that call for rappelling equipment or a canoe, because I don't own those things and I don't know how to use them. Just like I avoid the 10 mile hike caches, because I can't hike 10 miles without extreme pain. Just like I avoid the multis that don't tell me how many stages there are when I'm on vacation, because I don't like to start something I might not be able to finish or go back to to try again. I don't have a problem with people who do enjoy those things, it just isn't for me. But, I also don't "get" cache hiders who mind if someone gets the solution to their puzzle cache via a shortcut. The only person being cheated is the cacher who doesn't get to have the sense of pride that comes with solving the puzzle. Isn't that the point of wanting to do that type of cache? I agree with the person who said they would just let them cheat themselves of the fun of solving the puzzle and let the puzzle lovers who don't take shortcuts still have that cache to enjoy as well. Of course, I don't understand why anyone would want to delete a find if someone stumbled across their cache accidentally while looking for another one or if it was a PMO cache and it was found by a non-premium member caching with someone who was premium, either. So maybe I'm just not qualified to get up a good head of steam on the outrage train, because I'm not into the whole being a stickler for details sort of person. Quote Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I just heard that Microsoft is going to discontinue the Xbox because they found out about this website. And Will Shortz is outraged over this one. One can find cheat sites for almost anything on the internet. When people get stuck working a puzzle or playing a video game, they are naturally going to look for help. People who enjoy puzzles will often help them because part of doing puzzles is learning how to solve them and the hope is that people will learn from the hints and cheats and be able to solve the next puzzle without these. I understand that a geocaching puzzle is only one part of finding the geocache. After getting the solution you then need to go an find the cache. And I suppose that there may be people who measure their geocaching experience by the number of finds they have instead of by how much fun they had. So anything to short circuits a find is good for these people. People who enjoy the puzzle solving part will ignore the cheat site because it will take away from the fun and satisfaction they get from solving the puzzle. In fact I see from the recent thread about requiring coordinate verification for all puzzles, I got the impress that some people don't even check the coordinates if there is a verification link because they get even more satisfaction when they can only get verification because they found the cache. Everyone has their own rules about what is fair for claiming a find on a puzzle. When I am with a group and I haven't solved the puzzle yet, I'll post a note and only change this to a find when I have figured out the puzzle. But I'm in the minority because most of the people in the group go ahead and claim a find. I'm also not averse to asking for a hint or from working on the solution with another cacher. As a puzzle hider, I'm not about to go check that everyone that claims a find on my caches has solved the puzzle. I suspect that in one case at least, the cache was found after the person hid a cache nearby that got turned down because of the 528 ft. rule. He then went back to pick up his cache and searched around the area till he found my cache. I don't really care how people find my caches. The puzzles are there for people who like challenging puzzles and these people will continue to do the puzzle whether or not there is a cheat site or a way to brute force the coordinates. Quote Link to comment
+Tequila Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 this morning my geocaching group received this message: I've been thinking about something for a while, a place to share hints and solutions to puzzles. As an example, I have set up a Yahoo group to show what it could look like: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoPuzzleSpoiler/join The idea is to first provide a *useful* hint, and then the answer. Check out the database on the group site. It would be like an on-going virtual version of the "(name removed) Event" I expect to get some negative feed back from the prolific puzzle creators out there. The NOMEX suit is on, flame away! i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play. Are we due for another geocide????? Quote Link to comment
+DarkZen Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play. I do not understand your logic at all, you're punishing the good guys. I was never a big video game fan but I played a bit. A lot of my friends went to cheat sites or got cheat codes, I never did... what was the fun in that? I worked out the games on my own. I don't like puzzle caches because I suck at them, so I just don't log them. Not a biggie. Sorry, I don't share your rage. For me it only warrants a... meh. Cheaters happen, don't take it personally. I bet the majority of future loggers will not have cheated. Don't punish the masses because a few bad apples got under your skin. Quote Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 This is the third site or group of this type that I've seen. Here is the emoticon that I <3 for this subject: There's a difference between working with a few friends to share knowledge on puzzles that you then go out and find together, vs. posting on a website for all to see. Since few people would endorse the latter approach, prior cheat sites have died a quick death from lack of interest. I hope this one follows suit. Rather than archive my puzzle caches, I would join the group so I could see the membership list, then add an ALR to my puzzles stating that all logs from members of the cheat group would be deleted. I like the ALR angle. Quote Link to comment
+JoesBar Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 (edited) How many times have you read this in a log, "We searched various spots for awhile and then used, phone a friend.?" (emphasis added.) What's the difference between seeking help from an internet site or calling another cacher that has found the one you are seeking? The 'phone a friend' is accepted practice, getting a hint or location for a puzzle isn't. Seems like the same thing to me. Edited February 21, 2009 by JoesBar Quote Link to comment
+Isonzo Karst Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I do share your outrage. It's outrageous. I own no puzzle caches, and rarely find them; but I do own a number of long multi-caches. If there were a Yahoo group listing the final coords, I suspect I'd just archive them. The heck with it. Quote Link to comment
+Dedmedic Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 this morning my geocaching group received this message: I've been thinking about something for a while, a place to share hints and solutions to puzzles. As an example, I have set up a Yahoo group to show what it could look like: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoPuzzleSpoiler/join The idea is to first provide a *useful* hint, and then the answer. Check out the database on the group site. It would be like an on-going virtual version of the "(name removed) Event" I expect to get some negative feed back from the prolific puzzle creators out there. The NOMEX suit is on, flame away! i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play. Im surprised you havent gotten any messages from the regulars such as ...don't worry about it, its just a game...or..that subject has been brought up before..you need to check the thread history and not rehash and old subject. Quote Link to comment
+Vater_Araignee Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 ALRing "Any one that is a member of X, Y and Z cheat sites will be deleted" well my name on those cheat sites isn't going to be this one. See how pointless that ALR will become? I agree with flask, if I made a puzzle and it started getting cheated on, I would archive it too. tozainamboku, Your video game analogy is worse than weak. If you can't see the difference between a programmer purposefully adding exploits and a CO not, well lets just say you need to bring everything of worth you have to a poker game against me and my slight of hand. Oh yeah, we will use my decks also. Quote Link to comment
+Too Tall John Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 The 'phone a friend' is accepted practice, getting a hint or location for a puzzle isn't. Seems like the same thing to me.PAF can be a useful tool. I've been caching with the OP. We searched and searched for one cache in particular. Finally, she gave a call to someone she knew who had found it. He confirmed that we were looking in the right places, and yet weren't finding it. Instead of wasting more time in the woods, we moved on. There is a big difference between that and a site that lists cheats for a puzzle. First off, you aren't in the middle of the woods wasting time while you're "solving" the puzzle, you're sitting in the relative comfort of a chair and the glow of a computer monitor. Secondly, you've actually put some effort into looking for the cache before you use a PAF, while using the cheat site (to it's fullest extent) requires no effort before being rewarded. What I would be interested in is a site that offered only hints to the puzzle, but the hints would be added by the cache owner. There's nothing wrong with getting hints from the CO. Come to think of it, after a day of caching with flask, we went out to dinner with a group of other cachers from the area. Our PAF (DJ) was asking me for hints on one of my caches, which I was more than happy to give. Of course, the whole table of cachers went silent when I told DJ, rather loudly that "Blackheart Joe isn't kidding when he says YOU'LL ROT BEFORE YOU FIGURE THIS OUT!" As everyone else gave us startled looks, DJ's face lit up with recognition. If there were a local "Puzzle Hints" site, I'd post hints to that cache in a heartbeat. It's been out for just under a year and only has 2 finds. While it was meant to be a challenge, it was also meant to be found. Speaking of which, flask, do you know if DJ's made any progress on that? Quote Link to comment
+wkmccall Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 this morning my geocaching group received this message: I've been thinking about something for a while, a place to share hints and solutions to puzzles. As an example, I have set up a Yahoo group to show what it could look like: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoPuzzleSpoiler/join The idea is to first provide a *useful* hint, and then the answer. Check out the database on the group site. It would be like an on-going virtual version of the "(name removed) Event" I expect to get some negative feed back from the prolific puzzle creators out there. The NOMEX suit is on, flame away! i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play. Well, you could aways create a sock-puppet account in the group and watch for answers to any of your caches, then delete the logs of the cheaters. Quote Link to comment
+Urubu Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 If you don't like long hikes, don't seek caches that involve long hikes. If you don't like boats, don't seek caches that require boats. If you don't like solving puzzles at home, don't seek puzzle caches that you have to solve at home. A geocacher has no more right to find all the puzzle caches in their area than they do all the boat/scuba/ski/caving/snowmobile/whatever caches. The fact that it's easy to cheat on this one kind doesn't make it ok. Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 What I would be interested in is a site that offered only hints to the puzzle, but the hints would be added by the cache owner. Cache owners can add whatever level of hint(s) they want to the cache page. No need for any other website. Back on topic: Like DarkZen, I'm still at "Meh". I'm trying my darndest to be outraged, so I can hop on the bandwagon, but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe I need some stimulus? A whonk on the head with a hammer? Maybe? (OK, that didn't work... but it hurt like the dickens... Still looking for the rage...) Quote Link to comment
Clan Riffster Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 If you don't like long hikes, don't seek caches that involve long hikes. If you don't like boats, don't seek caches that require boats. If you don't like solving puzzles at home, don't seek puzzle caches that you have to solve at home. Adding another: If you don't like folks finding your puzzles & multis without going thru the same steps you did, don't hide them.Once a puzzle or multi has been found/solved by a single person, it's possible to have your final found by methods outside your control. The most productive thing we as cache owners can do decide how we're going to feel about it. We can be "outraged", if we wish. I've been outraged in the past, and it's not an emotion I care to feel again, if I don't have to. Post script: Flask, I love the ESP ALR idea. Quote Link to comment
+Urubu Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 If you don't like long hikes, don't seek caches that involve long hikes. If you don't like boats, don't seek caches that require boats. If you don't like solving puzzles at home, don't seek puzzle caches that you have to solve at home. Adding another: If you don't like folks finding your puzzles & multis without going thru the same steps you did, don't hide them.Once a puzzle or multi has been found/solved by a single person, it's possible to have your final found by methods outside your control. The most productive thing we as cache owners can do decide how we're going to feel about it. We can be "outraged", if we wish. I've been outraged in the past, and it's not an emotion I care to feel again, if I don't have to. Post script: Flask, I love the ESP ALR idea. CR, you're absolutely right. I am slightly less outraged already, and calming down fast. ...it's just a game...it's just a game...it's just a game... Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 you know, i've really worked hard to provide puzzles that are interesting and fun. i am generous with hints if i need to be, and i don't mind at all if a group of finders tag along with a legitimate solver. i don't even mind if they give each other hints or if they're clever enough to shortcut a stage. what i mind so terribly is having the coords to these caches published somewhere. it's kind of like publishing the specific details about regular caches, and maybe even photos. or marking them with flagging tape. there's no geocide coming; i'll continue to find caches as happily as before. i just won't leave my hides out there. i don't have the energy to police the cheat group as a sock puppet, or to delete logs of people who belong to it. if they want to give out the coords to my caches, fine. they're not going to get a smilie out of it. Quote Link to comment
Mushtang Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 After you archive all your clever puzzles create a really hard one where it will be easy for you to change the final answer from time to time. Every time the solution appears on the cheat site, move the cache 100'. Quote Link to comment
+BBWolf+3Pigs Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 After you archive all your clever puzzles create a really hard one where it will be easy for you to change the final answer from time to time. Every time the solution appears on the cheat site, move the cache 100'. I was thinking the same thing! But why just 100'?!? Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 After you archive all your clever puzzles create a really hard one where it will be easy for you to change the final answer from time to time. Every time the solution appears on the cheat site, move the cache 100'. already thought of it. thought of doing it with all my puzzles. i just don't have the energy. i also thought of devising a very difficult and time-consuming puzzle that has no solution, and maybe i was going to make it one of those reserved FTFs as well. delete every find log before a certain cacher gets his FTF. of course the certain cacher will never show up and the cache will remain permanently unsolved and unfound. Quote Link to comment
+Team O-Zone Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Does anyone remember the Metalica / Napster "scandal"? To me, this cheat site situation is very similar to it. Get it for free or pay(work) for it! The Cache Owner has put in a lot of time and effort into creating these puzzle caches with I'm sure of visions of cache seekers enjoying the journey of the hunt. Now to have someone "give away" the end result after the hard work the CO did, can leave the CO with a feeling of being 'robbed'. For those of you who have a feeling of "oh well..." or "yeah, ok, so..."; great I'm glad it does have any effect on you. For those who feel bothered by this, I think that the general feeling about these cheaters is that of a lack of integrity. A puzzle cache is suppose to take you on a journey, whether it be mental at your desk in front of your computer or physical, going from site to site. How many cool "places" will these cheaters miss out on because of a lack of integrity! It is about the journey, not the destination! If you focus on the destination, you will miss out on the journey! Quote Link to comment
+DarkZen Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 PAF can be a useful tool. I've been caching with the OP. We searched and searched for one cache in particular. Finally, she gave a call to someone she knew who had found it. The irony is so thick here you can cut it with a sledgehammer. This is a VERY slippery slope, my friend. And given it, I could understand the OP's annoyance - but outrage? Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 PAF can be a useful tool. I've been caching with the OP. We searched and searched for one cache in particular. Finally, she gave a call to someone she knew who had found it. The irony is so thick here you can cut it with a sledgehammer. This is a VERY slippery slope, my friend. And given it, I could understand the OP's annoyance - but outrage? you'll notice that we used the PAF not to give us the cache, but to help us judge that it was time to go. the cache was there; we just didn't find it. it goes kind of like this: "you've found it; are we missing something?" "nope, you're in the right place" "are there any hints on the cache page that we've missed?" "nope." "ok, then. see you at supper." the cache is still there. i still haven't found it. another time i used a PAF to ask "do i really have to walk a mile and a half up the mountain and bushwhack 700 feet?" the answer did not supply me with the cache. in case you care, the answer is "no. you have to walk up the mountain, but not a mile and a half." what would be equivalent to the cheat group would have been for someone to have told me "walk up the mountain about a quarter mile from the first stage and then be sure you take the left fork. go a hundred feet or so up the trail and the cache will be hanging twenty feet in the air to the left of the trail." or actually, what would have been equivalent would have been for someone to post that information on an indexed website and invite everyone to see it. i'm toasty with hints. i'm even toasty if you want to tell your friend where a cache is, provided he's made SOME effort. if you call my house to ask me where one of my caches is because you can't find it, i will ask you how detailed you wish me to be. depending on the cache, i may tell you exactly where it is. publishing solutions goes beyond what's acceptable. as for my use of the word "outrage", have you guys heard of hyperbole? it's an interesting literary device that you might be interested to learn about. Quote Link to comment
+DarkZen Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 you'll notice that we used the PAF not to give us the cache, but to help us judge that it was time to go. the cache was there; we just didn't find it. Not quite sure of your point, but just because someone publishes your coordinates online doesn't mean someone can use them to find your cache, just as you had coords and DNF. another time i used a PAF to ask "do i really have to walk a mile and a half up the mountain and bushwhack 700 feet?" the answer did not supply me with the cache. in case you care, the answer is "no. you have to walk up the mountain, but not a mile and a half." Sorry, I'm not seeing the huge difference. Myself, I would rather mis-solve a puzzle than bush-whack 700 ft for nothing. what would be equivalent to the cheat group would have been for someone to have told me "walk up the mountain about a quarter mile from the first stage and then be sure you take the left fork. go a hundred feet or so up the trail and the cache will be hanging twenty feet in the air to the left of the trail." I understand. You continue to try to justify your actions by contrasting them with theirs. They cheated a lot, you only cheated a little so it's OK. as for my use of the word "outrage", have you guys heard of hyperbole? it's an interesting literary device that you might be interested to learn about. Ironic (and funny) coming from someone who tried to accuse me of comparing apples to oranges when I clearly said it was a slippery slope. Look, I think what they are doing is wrong and not in the spirit of the game. I don't care if you take all of your marbles and go home. I have no dog in that fight - just offering MHO. But at least acknowledge that your actions and theirs are two side of the same coin. I'm sorry that's happening in your area. Find peace. ~DarkZen~ Quote Link to comment
ao318 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I agree that I do not like the idea of having a site that gives the answers to puzzles and multi's but I don't condemn it either. I think a better use for that site would be to have links to common ciphers, puzzle sites, history sites, or anything that would assist in solving puzzles without actually naming the cache or solving it for you. Another thing would be links to things like fizzycalc to assist in figuring these things out. Every-time I solve a puzzle I save the the link or links that helped me in a folder in my bookmarks. This would be something I would not object too. Quote Link to comment
CLV3 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I guess my attitude is that it is really the cheaters loss. I mean, I love puzzle caches. To me, it would take the fun away from the puzzle if I went to some site and someone else gave me the answer. Hints are one thing, but I much rather get those from the creator of the puzzle so I can solve it the way it was intended to be solved. Quote Link to comment
+BBI Dragon Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) ...as a person who is just terrible at solving puzzles, I have to say don't "get" the cheat sites. I suppose it's really that I just don't understand the mentality of the folks who think they 'have' to get every cache, even the ones they don't enjoy doing. I don't dislike puzzles--really I don't--I am just awful at them. I either see right away what to do or I am as dense as a rock. I am in the same page with the above post/quote. Being new to caching I have just started to take a look at the puzzle caches. Some of them are just a matter of doing the time to research at home or in the field. I get those. But others are just beyond me, at least at this point. This whole topic reminds me of the "Phone A Friend" issue. Is it cheating or just getting a little help, a hint from someone else you know that's already made the find? I understand the frustration of someone creating the puzzle cache only to have some cheat at it. Bottom line, it's our cache, if this is irritating enough do what you want, archive if that's the way you feel. Good topic, I just started a yahoogroup for my area's cachers and after reading this, I've added a note that the group is NOT to be posting puzzle coordinates, and that hints to all caches will be monitored closely. I hope that there will still be puzzle caches for those of us that enjoy the challenge, and frustration of trying to solve them. Edited February 22, 2009 by BBI Dragon Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 . Myself, I would rather mis-solve a puzzle than bush-whack 700 ft for nothing. what would be equivalent to the cheat group would have been for someone to have told me "walk up the mountain about a quarter mile from the first stage and then be sure you take the left fork. go a hundred feet or so up the trail and the cache will be hanging twenty feet in the air to the left of the trail." I understand. You continue to try to justify your actions by contrasting them with theirs. They cheated a lot, you only cheated a little so it's OK. oh, wait... did i mention that i made that call after i had already walked a mile and a half up the mountain and bushwhacked 700 feet? and searched the resulting area for three hours? and that i had gone to all the locations that might result from confusing a 6 with a 7 with an 8 with a 9? and that after i made the call i still didn't know where the cache was and hadn't asked for that information, just that it wasn't at the first place? there's not much cheating in that, if any. if i tell you "it's not a mile and a half from here", that leaves a LOT of places it might be. if someone had said "why, yes. it is a mile and a half up that mountain", i'd have stayed there until i found the blasted thing. Quote Link to comment
+Team Black-Cat Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I've gotten over the fact that when a certain cacher finds one of my puzzles, there will be a rash of three or four more finds within a few days. It's always the same ones. I guess this isn't the same as having the coords posted on the web somewhere for everyone to see. It doesn't bother me too much because I'm not going to join the group to see if my caches are on the list. The ones that cheat the puzzle probably wouldn't ever solve it. Whether they can't or don't want to is irrelevant. So they get a smiley. It didn't cost me anything. The puzzle is still valid for those that choose to solve it. Did the puzzle take them to a nice place? Maybe a nice hike? Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 this morning my geocaching group received this message: I've been thinking about something for a while, a place to share hints and solutions to puzzles. As an example, I have set up a Yahoo group to show what it could look like: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoPuzzleSpoiler/join The idea is to first provide a *useful* hint, and then the answer. Check out the database on the group site. It would be like an on-going virtual version of the "(name removed) Event" I expect to get some negative feed back from the prolific puzzle creators out there. The NOMEX suit is on, flame away! i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play. Well, you could aways create a sock-puppet account in the group and watch for answers to any of your caches, then delete the logs of the cheaters. I could join that Yahoo group right now, and I guarantee you'd never connect my yahoo Id with "TheWhiteUrkel" on geocaching.com But you probably could in most cases. Yes, I actually would archive a puzzle cache if it's solution appeared on a yahoo group. I would not, however, bulk archive all my puzzle caches if I knew such a group existed in my area. So yeah, I share in your outrage. Literary term and all. Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 i've realized that one of the objectives of the cheat group is to get puzzles either cleared by cheating, or archived to make room for traditionals. one guy actually said that he doesn't see why his geocaching should be encumbered just because someone chose to obfuscate the coordinates. i have a fun idea: certain traditional caches in my area might suddenly become puzzles: the guardrail cache you are looking for has been moved. you can find it here: (insert puzzle) muahaahaaahaahaaaaaa. Quote Link to comment
+Team Black-Cat Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Evil, evil Flask. One of my puzzles doesn't really start until after they get to the first stage... The funny part is, it took the first finders two days to figure out that they had to go there.. Back on topic... I hope you don't kill your puzzles, Flask. Think of it this way. If you had made the caches traditionals to start with, I'm sure they would still be good caches. Adding the puzzle is just a bonus to those that enjoy them. I have a nagging suspicion that you might not be quite as upset about this as you're leading us to believe... Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I'm also having a difficult time getting properly upset by this. After all, isn't there already a couple other 'cheat' sites out there? Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) I'm also having a difficult time getting properly upset by this. After all, isn't there already a couple other 'cheat' sites out there? dunno. there might be. this would be the first one specifically intended to target my home area and my caches (among others). while i AM upset about it, why shouldn't i enjoy pulling up for a really good fight? i adore a good fight and am adept at all sorts of sneaky tactics, which i hardly ever get use on account of having to be all nice and moral and everything. if some moral defective with an entitlement complex wants to start a fight by publishing cache solutions, i'm prepared to make a "march to atlanta". this includes wild hyperbole and fictive accounts. my first shot in the battle is to have invited the entire mailing list to an impromptu event: hey everybody! tomorrow i'm going to collect up a bunch of traditional caches. anyone who wants to sign those logs should meet me at the kmart plaza on shelburne road at 1830. i'll have the logbooks there for anyone who wants to sign them, and we may or may not be returning them to their proper places sometime monday. hope to see you all there! anyone who wants to know if i'm willing to do such a thing will have to come to the kmart plaza at 1830. the solid and sober citizens whose cache solutions are being published do not have the luxury of fighting dirty, or being so wildly unpredictable. me, i'm already a loose cannon. nobody quite knows what i'm capable of. that's the whole fun of being an escaped mental patient. sure, i can't purchase firearms in any state in the US, but that's such a small thing compared to being able to keep the cheaters guessing. it's fun to hotfoot people. edit to add: the cache you are looking for has been moved. you can find it here. Edited February 22, 2009 by flask Quote Link to comment
+Star*Hopper Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Hi Flask; Haven't thought that 'deeply' on the subject/your plight, but just for some thoughts on how to deal with it: It might be affected by the numbers in your home grounds - # of cachers; # of those that are involved in this 'cult'; # of caches; # of those caches that are puzzles, etc etc. First thought that came to mind was - fight fire with fire. Just as 'they' are trying to organize a cheat system, consider maybe trying to organize an 'anti-system' yourself. Contact all the puzzle-cache owners in your area (I think there's more'n an even chance they're also miffed at the idea of the 'cheat club', or will be) and advise them of what's going on.....and work out a common solution of how to deal with it. One method might be, get all of them (puzzle owners) to temporarily disable all the puzzle caches in the area. Even if you can't get ALL of 'em, maybe you'd get enough 'off the playing field' to make what benefits the cheaters would have to offer, miniscule. Seems to me it'd be equally as frustrating for the cheaters to not have any 'scores' to score, or at least, an extreme scarcity of possibilities. And who wants to be part of something from which there'd be little to gain -- ie, anyone joining the 'cheaters' should quickly discover they can only gain a couple or so Smileys by participating (and I'd try to make those couple of Smileys a real DOG, if ya get my drift -- leaky 35mm can in a cave floor of bat guano type caches) . In other words, leave such a paucity of benefits to be gained by cheating, and they'd likely quickly lose interest in being part of it. Just my way of thinkin'. But good luck in your endeavor -- I'm in your boat on this'n. ~* Quote Link to comment
+KBI Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 i believe my response will be to archive my caches. if they're going to cheat -and not only just cheat, but create a cheater's database, i don't want to play. I do not understand your logic at all, you're punishing the good guys. I was never a big video game fan but I played a bit. A lot of my friends went to cheat sites or got cheat codes, I never did... what was the fun in that? I worked out the games on my own. I don't like puzzle caches because I suck at them, so I just don't log them. Not a biggie. Sorry, I don't share your rage. For me it only warrants a... meh. Cheaters happen, don't take it personally. I bet the majority of future loggers will not have cheated. Don't punish the masses because a few bad apples got under your skin. I agree. Some folks cheat on newspaper crosswords. I am very grateful to the writers of those wonderful puzzles for not quitting out of protest. Cache finders sometimes help cache seekers. It’s an intractable fact. As long as those who choose not to bypass a challenge are not receiving unrequested spoilers from those who do, then I don’t see the harm. I understand that each cache seeker has his own unique standard when it comes to exactly how much assistance to use when overcoming a challenge created by a cache owner. Puzzles, obstacles, mysteries, terrain, camouflage – all of these things can be defeated via the help of previous finders. I have my own standards. Sometimes I like help; sometimes I don’t. What I do NOT understand is why some cache owners feel the need to try to control how much help other cachers give or receive. As a cache owner, I don’t begrudge those who choose to use their friends to bypass my challenges instead of using their own skills or wits to defeat them head-on. I may pity them, but I never resent them. To each his own. This hobby is just a pleasant pastime; a leisure diversion. It’s not my job to decide for other people what is fun for them and what isn’t. Similarly: If I work hard to defeat a tough challenge and then sign the log as my proud reward, only to discover that some other cacher essentially had the same smiley handed to him, that doesn’t bother me either. One player’s "cheating" does NOT remove another player’s accomplishment. It may work that way in competitive games, but not Geocaching. I like puzzle caches. I really like solving them without help. Seeking help or not seeking help is my choice. Until someone invents a way to force me to read a cheat site, the mere existence of those cheat sites will not bother me. Yes, sometimes puzzle-cache finders help their buddies. There is no way to prevent that. As cache owners, the question is not how organized we should allow folks to be when passing around clandestine help among themselves; the question is whether we should be troubled by the so-called "cheating" in the first place. In my opinion the answer to the second question is no. Which makes the first question moot. Quote Link to comment
+Fugglestone Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 So, if I am reading the gist of this thread correctly, it seems that people would rather that no one find their caches than have some people "cheat" their way to the answers. Why is this true? Sure, it would be entertaining to punish someone who you felt acted unfairly and make the puzzles they are trying to solve unsolvable. But what am I supposed to do when I solve it legitimately? How will I know that what I solved isn't just someone's revenge tactic to get back at the faceless masses. Or how will I know that the puzzle I am working on has no solution at all? I know! Make it a logging requirement that in order to find the cache you first have to solve the puzzle. Then you have to e-mail the owner and tell them exactly how you solved it, what you got for coordinates, how long it took and what you were wearing while you did it! That should stop those sneaky cheaters. Until of course, they figure out that they can pass that information amongst themselves as well. Darn! Back to the drawing board. I don't see any way to single out those that people feel have cheated in some way without punishing all who may be out to find the caches placed. And really, wasn't that why you put them out in the first place? To be found. Maybe not. Maybe you just want people to be impressed at how hard your puzzle is and the cache itself is secondary. I can understand that you put alot of effort into the puzzle, but if finding the coordinates becomes that much more important than finding the cache, maybe you should just cut out the cache altogether and shift it to a more puzzle oriented site. Now let me say that I do enjoy a good puzzle cache. I don't solve most of the ones I look at, but I do have a good time working my way through the ones I have solved. But it really wouldn't take too many instances of solving a puzzle, heading out, searching for a while, and finding just a note that says "Sorry! No cache here! Too many cheaters so I changed the hide. You will never find me!" for me to decide that maybe they aren't worth the effort after all. if some moral defective with an entitlement complex . . . And since nitpicking word choices seems to be a favorite pastime of many here I do have to quible a bit here. When did this become a moral issue? It is immoral to seek the answer to a puzzle through any available means? So, all those years that I have glanced to the back of the book for crossword puzzle answers that really stumped me I have been performing immoral acts?!? Darn! Well, I guess I am off to church to confess my sins and hope God forgives me for my wicked, wicked ways. Quote Link to comment
CoyoteRed Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 When did this become a moral issue? It is immoral to seek the answer to a puzzle through any available means? So, all those years that I have glanced to the back of the book for crossword puzzle answers that really stumped me I have been performing immoral acts?!? I look at it from this angle: this site allows you to pretty much certify you've completed a particular hunt. On puzzle caches that includes solving the puzzle or what ever other obstacle was placed in front of the final treasure. There are "points" awarded to each of these cache in the form of stars. In the case of a hike up a mountain, it's a high terrain rating. You haul your butt up the mountain to put your name in the logbook. You put in that effort. However, on the difficulty rating side there is a lot of mental that goes into the rating. It could be a brilliant camouflage job, a wicked riddle, or obscure code. The mental part is easily shared through a medium designed to share ideas. A 5 star hike remains a 5 star hike no matter what. A 5 star puzzle becomes 1 star when someone hands you just 15 digits (in many case a lot less), BUT you're still saying it was a 5 star cache for you. It wasn't. Going and finding a 5 star difficulty cache when you've been handed the solution is well and fine, but when you log it as a find--a 5 star difficulty find--you're saying you've worked* through those five stars when you didn't. IMHO, it's on a similar level of false logging a find. * Let's not get bogged down with being part of a team and you didn't pull your weight, or puzzles are a lot easier for some and impossible for others. We're talking about simply being handed the solution to a puzzle. Quote Link to comment
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