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60csx or pn-40


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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention backlit buttons. My Magellan 330 had those years ago!

 

Yep, we had a Magellan Map 330 also ... top notch GPSr and a leader in its time. It was the first GPSr I used for directions (it didn't do routing). I was on a business trip in Los Angeles. A co-worker was driving and got turned around. I pulled it out of my briefcase and in minutes we were fine. My wife and I also used it hiking glaciers in Washington State (don't have many of those in the southeast!). We didn't much care whether it was vectorized, rastorized, or scrambled ... it just worked!

 

The Map 330 also ran great on ... ahmmm ... alkaline batteries. :)

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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention backlit buttons. My Magellan 330 had those years ago!

 

Yep, we had a Magellan Map 330 also ... top notch GPSr and a leader in its time. It was the first GPSr I used for directions (it didn't do routing). I was on a business trip in Los Angeles. A co-worker was driving and got turned around. I pulled it out of my briefcase and in minutes we were fine. My wife and I also used it hiking glaciers in Washington State (don't have many of those in the southeast!). We didn't much care whether it was vectorized, rastorized, or scrambled ... it just worked!

 

The Map 330 also ran great on ... ahmmm ... alkaline batteries. :)

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If you have a couple hundreds caches on the PN40 how do you know one has been disabled or had the coordinates changed so you can deal with it?

 

For the CO/OR you can simply take the PQ directly from GC.com and drag and drop it to the GPS. It will then overwrite the previous PQ (if the file name is the same otherwise you need to manually delete it). When the GPS reboots, it will just load the caches in the current PQ so you get only caches you have not found that are active with changed coordinates. The problem with just using the PQ straight from gc.com is they only have the last 5 logs, no corrected coordinates or user notes. Using macros in GSAK deals with all of that resulting in GSAK replacing the PQ on the GPS with a new one with accumulated logs, corrected coord etc. Since it replaces the file on the GPS, it starts from scratch and every cache is up to date.

 

It sounds like the PN40 is loading a separate file for each cache. So what sounds like a problem is once they are on the GPS it would seem to be very difficult to easily identify and deal with these problems that regulalrly occur with being disabled, etc.. When I first started using GSAK to load my caches on my CO, I did not get the macros right and on multiple occasions I went to caches that were not active and 2 times I searched and searched at the wrong coordinates not realizing they had moved. One time I did not realize the cache description had changed and got a DNF as a result. I also discovered sometimes the hints changes. But adding Lock=$d_name;$d_Latitude;$d_Longitude;$d_LongDescription;$d_Hints to the macro I used fixed all of this.

 

To update the cache on the PN40, do you have to go to each cache page and download it again? Or is there a shortcut? If you download it again, will it accumulate logs or does it replace the previous 5 logs?

 

 

FWIW I have a PN-40 and use GSAK to manage my PQs. I can "Send to GPS" for brand new caches. For all others I generate GPX files out of GSAK (maintained using nightly PQs that are retrieved by GSAK from custom email addresses) and transfer them to my PN-40 using some tools that folks (Tigerz above among them) developed pending the DeLorme Cache Register being released. Works fine for my uses and lets me continue to manage things with GSAK. I get the long logs, the extra GSAK data (user fields, etc.).

Edited by Oreb
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If you have a couple hundreds caches on the PN40 how do you know one has been disabled or had the coordinates changed so you can deal with it?

 

blah....blah.....

 

It sounds like the PN40 is ... blah....blah.....

 

To update the cache on the PN40, do you have to blah .... blah....

(Please note: This person has NO actual, hands-on experience. Just bad mouthing on guesswork and hearsay.)

 

FWIW I have a PN-40.... (Please note: This person has actual, hands-on experience.)

 

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How's this (screen shot of Mt Tabor)
Looks nice at first glance, but you're missing some roads. Don't know if that's just a zoom level matter on the screen shot though. Can I get that complete map from you, or at least the Mt Tabor area, to inspect in more detail?

 

There is already a free 24K map for part of OR
"Part of OR" means still not done yet. Let me know when it's finished.

 

You can download the map at:

 

http://www.aracnet.com/~seagull/ORTopo/ but you have to have mapsource installed first-gpsfile depot has directions on how to install it without purchasing a Garmin map.

 

How about posting a PN40 Screen shot showing the roads you are talking about. It would be good to see a comparision anyway.

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How about posting a PN40 Screen shot showing the roads you are talking about. It would be good to see a comparison anyway.
Jim, I gotta hand it to you, that IS a beautiful map. In MapSource where I can zoom in and adjust the detail, I don't see any major flaws or omissions in the Mt Tabor area. And at a comparable zoom level it is nicer looking and easier to read than the USGS 1:24K scanned map. Also better than the contours included with Topo7.

 

But -- I know you said this wasn't finished -- and it's not even close. Only a few tens of miles around metro Portland? Truth, I can pedal from the center of this map past the edges of this map before lunch time. On a fixed gear bike :). When's the rest of it gonna be done?

 

One beautifully detailed section:

quickshot.jpg

 

But this is all the coverage we get?

coverage.jpg

Edited by lee_rimar
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Oh no there ace, don't feel sorry for me. Calling a spade a spade isn't attacking. It's obvious to everyone what your M.O. is. All you want to do is dance and redirect. Any point that shows an advantage to something like the PN-40 you just try and turn around the other way. There are a good four pages of examples in this thread alone. I just love that you have the gall to accuse me of not debating the facts. I almost choked when I read that little gem. You'll probably accuse me of being with the Forrest Service next!

 

You have implied multiple times that the Garmin comes with 1:24K topo maps...

 

Garmin has the best 24K topo maps-it is not even a close comparison.

 

Notwithstanding Garmin 24Ks are more accurate and up to date than Delorome's...

As I said, I am a map person and the 24K topo maps on the Garmin is far superior to the 24K maps on the Delorome.
One of the really nice things about Garmin is you get much better 24K topos...

 

You fail to mention that actual Garmin 1:24K topo maps can only be obtained at an additional cost. Free user generated topo maps are not the same thing as a commercial product. I have the gpsfiledepot 1:24K topo map for California. I'd rather use the 1:100K that I have on my 60GSx or my PN-40. The quality is better as is the information content. If all you're looking for are contours, the free 1:24K might hold an advantage bit that's it. Besides, the 1:100K maps I have on my PN-40 are routeable, something you have to pay for with Garmin and can't get from gpsfiledepot.

 

One can certainly create 1:24K topos for the PN-40 and PN-20 if they wanted. I imagine the reason we don't see them is because there is no need. People make them for the Garmin units to avoid paying Garmin's exorbitant map product prices. The size of the Garmin installed base is obviously a factor as well.

 

I've run into fanboy trolls on forums, newsgroups and BBS'es plenty of times in the past 25 years but you just about take the cake. At least you have something you can hang your hat on.

 

I feel sorry for you. It seems like with your inferior techonology you cannot accept the facts and attack people and make stuff up instead of addressing the facts to compensate for your inferior techonology. It seems you cannot have a debate on the facts.

 

All you do is name call and make stuff up-just like you have here where you claim I am making peole think the CO/OR come with the 24K maps. I notice you don't cite where I supposedly did this-obvioulsy you know it is not true. Just like many other things you keep saying.

 

And you go about your misleading claims again-what is your basis about the unknown quality of the free Garmin maps? And lets get real on the USGS maps many of these maps are decades old. The topograpphy and hydrology of the Garmin maps are more up to date and accurate than what is on the USGS maps. We also know many times the USGS maps are wrong. Many times I have compared my track to where the map shows the trail and it was way off or did not show the trailo at all? Many times I you found something on the map is no longer there or the location is way off.

 

Let's examine the ways you are lying again. Perhaps you should get a CO or OR and you won't feel the need to lie anymore!

 

First here is what you actually said, "I just realized something else tonight when I saw his post in another thread. He really does love to mislead and obscure the facts. From reading his posts in this thread, he'll have you believe that the Colorado and Oregon 400t models come with 1:24K topo maps."

 

Even out of context none of the things you quote indicate what you state. I also note everything you quote refers to the brand Garmin not the CO/OR. So how can discussing the maps for Garmin possibly imply the CO/OR come with 24K maps?

 

But if you examine what I said in context it really demonstrates you are lying AGAIN.

 

“One of the really nice things about Garmin is you get much better 24K topos that take up 1/120th the sapce of the Delorome 24K topos and not only can you load all you need on your GPS, it is simple to get the maps on the GPS. For garmin, you run a set up file to install a mapset into MapSource. If you get a new mapset, you just download and run the install. In MapSource, you select the mapset you want (for example City Navigator for street navigation) then select the segments of the map you want (real simple there is a tool), then slect another mapset (for example a 24K vector topo map for a certian state) you want to install, select the map with the select tool and then push the send to GPS tool. Since the Garmin maps are vector, they take 1/120th the space of the Delorome maps, so unlike with the PN40, you can fit all the maps you will ever need on your GPS. So once you install the maps, you always have everything you need on your GPS.”

 

So how does saying download and install indicate they come with 24K topo maps?

 

You quote out of context, “As I said, I am a map person and the 24K topo maps on the Garmin is far superior to the 24K maps on the Delorome.”

 

“As I said” was referring to my previous post:

 

“For comparision, I just went to http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/ download the FREE Washington 24K Topo and the FREE NW Trails, installed them and had the entire state of Washtion on my GPS within 15 minutes of going to the gpsfiledepot site (and almost all the time was waiting for the file to download and upload to the GPS. It took about a minute of mouse clicks). The entire state of Washingtom is less than 250 megs. As I said one of the many advantages of vector maps is they are much smaller. I like to have what I need on my GPS and am glad I don't have to make sure what I need is there everytime I go somewhere.”

 

So how does this indicate these maps come on the Garmin?

 

Your other example is, “Garmin has the best 24K topo maps-it is not even a close comparison. Notwithstanding Garmin 24Ks are more accurate and up to date than Delorome's...” There is no way to construe that as indicating the maps come on the CO/OR.

 

What does it take to get you to stop lying?

 

You also state, “I've run into fanboy trolls on forums, newsgroups and BBS'es plenty of times in the past 25 years but you just about take the cake.” Trolls? This is a geocaching forum- you don’t seem to be much of a geocacher-45 finds? Seems more like you are the troll.

 

I am not going to address any of the other stuff you say as you are nothing but a liar.

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lee_rimar,

 

If you go on GPSFILEDEPOT, there is a map for SothEast, South Central, and SouthWest. The person who is doing the maps is the one working on the 48 state project. About a month ago he posted on the gpsfiledepot forum he was working on the PNW and it was running slower than he liked and wanted the maps now. So he asked for some help. I would think it would be coming out soon. That map you have is not part of that project it is some map someone started a long time ago. I found that map the last time I was in the PNW. The quality of that map is simular to other 24K maps. Also many of these maps go through updates to improve them. After he gets all 48 states done, he plans to do a version 2 of the maps adding better local data.

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Wow, you were on that one pretty fast! I didn't post anything out of context, just some of the many comments where you implied that Colorado/Oregon models came with 1:24K topos and how Garmin's maps were better. Misinformation by omission is no excuse.

 

Promoting your favorite product while bashing a competing product is nothing new. You've elevated it to a new art form by automatically including expensive additional software and use at your own risk free maps in your arguments while at the same time discounting all the items included with the other product in question. It's even more amusing since you have no valid experiences with the PN-40 (and yes, I've spent some quality time with the Oregon 400t so I do have some context on the subject to draw upon when I state my opinions).

 

Oh, and yes... troll. You didn't used to be so bad when Garmin was the only player in town (however, some of your past harsh criticism of Garmin with regard to maps and the Colorado is amusing in light of your current position) but since the PN-40 came onto the scene you've been pretty relentless. Shilling constantly for the Colorado and gpsfiledepot (and your own) maps in general and PN-40 threads is being a troll.

 

That's right by the way, 45 finds (and one hide) in about a year of Geocaching. I'm pretty pleased with that number. I Geocache with my family (mainly my seven year old daughter). It's great to spend time together with my family doing something fun that is outdoors and requires cooperation and thinking. I'm sorry you can't relate. I know it's about the numbers for you. I thought it was hilarious when I saw your map page where you said that you don't like puzzle caches but would appreciate if people would send you solutions "to pay me back for the hundreds of hours spent making the maps" so you could log them anyway. Whatever floats your boat pal.

 

Lee really has it spot on about The Little Price. You might want to check it out sometime. In the meantime, bang on, your posts are amusing and break up the day.

 

Let's examine the ways you are lying again. Perhaps you should get a CO or OR and you won't feel the need to lie anymore!

 

First here is what you actually said, "I just realized something else tonight when I saw his post in another thread. He really does love to mislead and obscure the facts. From reading his posts in this thread, he'll have you believe that the Colorado and Oregon 400t models come with 1:24K topo maps."

 

Even out of context none of the things you quote indicate what you state. I also note everything you quote refers to the brand Garmin not the CO/OR. So how can discussing the maps for Garmin possibly imply the CO/OR come with 24K maps?

 

But if you examine what I said in context it really demonstrates you are lying AGAIN.

 

“One of the really nice things about Garmin is you get much better 24K topos that take up 1/120th the sapce of the Delorome 24K topos and not only can you load all you need on your GPS, it is simple to get the maps on the GPS. For garmin, you run a set up file to install a mapset into MapSource. If you get a new mapset, you just download and run the install. In MapSource, you select the mapset you want (for example City Navigator for street navigation) then select the segments of the map you want (real simple there is a tool), then slect another mapset (for example a 24K vector topo map for a certian state) you want to install, select the map with the select tool and then push the send to GPS tool. Since the Garmin maps are vector, they take 1/120th the space of the Delorome maps, so unlike with the PN40, you can fit all the maps you will ever need on your GPS. So once you install the maps, you always have everything you need on your GPS.”

 

So how does saying download and install indicate they come with 24K topo maps?

 

You quote out of context, “As I said, I am a map person and the 24K topo maps on the Garmin is far superior to the 24K maps on the Delorome.”

 

“As I said” was referring to my previous post:

 

“For comparision, I just went to http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/ download the FREE Washington 24K Topo and the FREE NW Trails, installed them and had the entire state of Washtion on my GPS within 15 minutes of going to the gpsfiledepot site (and almost all the time was waiting for the file to download and upload to the GPS. It took about a minute of mouse clicks). The entire state of Washingtom is less than 250 megs. As I said one of the many advantages of vector maps is they are much smaller. I like to have what I need on my GPS and am glad I don't have to make sure what I need is there everytime I go somewhere.”

 

So how does this indicate these maps come on the Garmin?

 

Your other example is, “Garmin has the best 24K topo maps-it is not even a close comparison. Notwithstanding Garmin 24Ks are more accurate and up to date than Delorome's...” There is no way to construe that as indicating the maps come on the CO/OR.

 

What does it take to get you to stop lying?

 

You also state, “I've run into fanboy trolls on forums, newsgroups and BBS'es plenty of times in the past 25 years but you just about take the cake.” Trolls? This is a geocaching forum- you don’t seem to be much of a geocacher-45 finds? Seems more like you are the troll.

 

I am not going to address any of the other stuff you say as you are nothing but a liar.

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There have been a lot of claims and counter claims that Brand X maps are better than Brand Y maps but not a lot of comparisons. (The one posted overnight for Mt Tabor in Oregon was an exception) So I took a look at the free 24K free maps for Garmin next to DeLorme's Topo's for the area I live, southern New Jersey. Here are some impressions of the free maps.

 

+ For a free map project the quality of the maps was impressive.

+ Free maps appear to render the contour lines with higher fidelity than the DeLorme maps.

- The lakes and ponds were less faithful to actual shapes and shorelines on the free maps than the DeLorme map.

- The lakes and ponds were not always identified on the free maps.

- Identification of main roads and secondary roads on the free maps was inconsistent. A series of ditches for firebreaks in the Wharton State Forest were incorrectly identified as roads on the free maps. Let me assure you these are not roads and are barely passable on foot.

- Ground features such as forest, swamp, open fields, developed areas, etc. were not identified on the free maps while they were identified on the DeLorme topos.

- Other than contour lines, roads, streams and ponds and a few points of interest the free maps were deficient in detail vs. the DeLorme Topos

 

So IMO the free maps are a useful rendering of the free topographic information sources on the web. If you had a Garmin and there was a budget constraint these would be a viable option. However unless these maps have been field verified, caution should be exercised. They are not an end all map - just another resource for your bag of tricks. You alone can determine what map is best for you based on your needs and equipment.

 

And one final question. This term 24K maps has been thrown around quite a bit. What exactly is meant by that? Are they a best approximation of the USGS 7.5 minute topographical quads? Or are there specific standards of accuracy for the elevation and topographical feature data?

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...on GPSFILEDEPOT, there is a map for SothEast, South Central, and SouthWest ... That map you have ... is some map someone started a long time ago...
That's sad :) I'd have been delighted to have that on my Garmin -- if it covered all of Oregon instead of just Portland metro. I plan to bicycle to the coast this year, and out to Mt. Hood (Government Camp, at least) and I'd much rather use my Legend HCx than my PN-40 for that.

 

But back on topic, and unfinished map project is not a point in Garmin's favour TODAY, is it?

 

DeLorme's PN-40 selling point is that 100% of the USA street maps and contours at 1:100K come in the box with the GPS; and 100% of the USGS 1:24K are available optionally for $30 -- along with all of the aerial imagery you have the patience to download. From one place, supported by the device manufacturer. The maps are NOT always beautiful, but they are pretty good, adequate, on par with what I've seen from other GPS vendors.

 

Garmin's 60csx deal is that you pay $80-$100 or so for each map package you want, above the price of the 60csx. You get "pretty good, adequate" maps from Garmin. Optionally you can try to find those beautiful free or open source projects from places like gpsfiledepot. SE, S. Central, SW? If you live someplace not covered, you might get lucky and find someone knows some someone who did a spot-coverage map for your area.

 

The maps you've shown are beautiful, no doubt - but they're not a complete package, and not as beautiful on the 60csx screen as on the CO screen shots you've been posting. And since they're not available for the where I live - they're not a selling point to me. Nor would they be to anyone else in the half of the coutry that isn't covered.

 

Steering back on topic, do you have anything else on the subject of "60csx or PN-40" for geocaching?

 

Oh, by the way: Thank you for not quoting my last note to you in it's entirety :anicute:

Edited by lee_rimar
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...not a lot of comparisons. (The one posted overnight for Mt Tabor in Oregon was an exception)
I was actually planning to post the same area out of DeLorme's Topo 7, but had reservations about copyright issues. Not sure if I could post high enough detail to be useful here and still consider it "fair use."

 

Looking at Mt. Tabor in T7, I'd give the nod to the open source map, it was impressive and I already said so. But Myotis says it's not part of the project files you got from gpsfiledepot. I'm seriously disappointed that it's only a spot-coverage map and not a full map of Oregon.

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...This term 24K maps has been thrown around quite a bit. What exactly is meant by that? Are they a best approximation of the USGS 7.5 minute topographical quads? Or are there specific standards of accuracy for the elevation and topographical feature data?
1:24000 and 1:100000 are simply scales of the printed source map. 1:63360 is the same as 1 inch on a paper map being 1 mile over the ground.

 

USGS 7.5 minute quads were printed at 1:24000 scale. An older series of maps, the 15-minute series, was once used to map the contiguous 48 states at a scale of 1:62,500.

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topographic_map

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That's an interesting point Frodo. I didn't want to say anything until I did some more testing but the topo maps I download for California was almost totally devoid of labels. The roads seemed to be there but they weren't marked. It made it pretty much useless from my point of view.

 

I want to go back and check my installation but it was a pretty simple process and I don't think I missed any steps.

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That's an interesting point Frodo. I didn't want to say anything until I did some more testing but the topo maps I download for California was almost totally devoid of labels. The roads seemed to be there but they weren't marked. It made it pretty much useless from my point of view.

 

I want to go back and check my installation but it was a pretty simple process and I don't think I missed any steps.

Is this the map you posted the screen shots from?

http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/28/

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...This term 24K maps has been thrown around quite a bit. What exactly is meant by that? Are they a best approximation of the USGS 7.5 minute topographical quads? Or are there specific standards of accuracy for the elevation and topographical feature data?
1:24000 and 1:100000 are simply scales of the printed source map. 1:63360 is the same as 1 inch on a paper map being 1 mile over the ground.

 

USGS 7.5 minute quads were printed at 1:24000 scale. An older series of maps, the 15-minute series, was once used to map the contiguous 48 states at a scale of 1:62,500.

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topographic_map

 

Lee,

 

Thanks for the info on the map scales, it is helpful. What I was curious about was what standards of accuracy were being used in compiling the free Garmin 24K maps. They seem to excel in their contour lines which leads to the question of what data source they are using. On the National Map Seamless server, there are three sets of elevation data which are designated as 1 arc second, 1/3 arc second and 1/9 arc second. I am presuming the designation is for the spacing of the data points with closer spacing implying greater precision. I tried bringing the 1 arc second data into XMap using some of the techniques described for the Garmin free maps. Actually got the data in and it produced some very interesting contours. However they were displaced from the actual locations by 500 to 1000 ft so there is some problem in how I converted the data. However viewing these contours on a DeLorme map lead me to the conclusion the free maps render the contours with greater fidelity - if only i could figure out how to get them properly located. However the DeLorme maps are more than adequate for my purposes and much easier to load onto the GPS than brewing your own maps. Interesting to know it can be done.

 

(By the way the DeLorme maps are correct as I have been to the locations that I was examining and the DeLorme maps match what you see in the field)

 

But the point of all this is to get to the factual heart of the matter of how good are the 24k Garmin maps. Which I believe for most purposes are adequate but I would like to see more data to support the assumption.

 

Frodo

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That's the one!

 

Is this the map you posted the screen shots from?

http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/28/

OK, I thought so. That map was made well before gpsfiledepot.com and any of the high rez data was available. Back when Garmin didn't have any full state 24K maps, only the National Parks series. Sometimes it's not about the cost, but the availability. In Fact that map is really from here:

http://www.vr6.com/gps/map-bg.htm

Gpsfiledepot decompiled that map and wrote an installer for Windows and the Mac to make it more accessible.

 

There is a v1.00 SW States map that covers that area and was made by a nubie here:

http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/109/

I have found some street data in my area in error as far as labels/type, as it is just the first version, and the map author would love to have comments if you happen to field check it for him. I'm looking to see the map updated. It might be worth your time to give it a look.

Edited by coggins
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"Part of OR" means still not done yet. Let me know when it's finished.
Hi Lee, there is an gpsfiledepot Oregon map in production and it is planned on being available in a format that can be used on both Delorme and Garmin units. At this time, the files are only available to the people involved in the project, and not to the general public.

 

The build thread is here: http://forums.gpsfiledepot.com/index.php/topic,168.0.html

Edited by coggins
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Ahhh! Interesting. That explains a lot.

 

I'll check out the other map if I have time but I probably won't be able to give it much of a field test. With the new firmware, I've decided that I'm happy with the PN-40 so I'm going to sell off my 60CSx shortly.

 

Thanks for the info!

 

OK, I thought so. That map was made well before gpsfiledepot.com and any of the high rez data was available. Back when Garmin didn't have any full state 24K maps, only the National Parks series. Sometimes it's not about the cost, but the availability. In Fact that map is really from here:

http://www.vr6.com/gps/map-bg.htm

Gpsfiledepot decompiled that map and wrote and installer for Windows and the Mac to make it more accessible.

 

There is a v1.00 SW States map that covers that area and was made by a nubie here:

http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/maps/view/109/

I have found some street data in my area in error as far as labels/type, as it is just the first version, and the map author would love to have comments if you happen to field check it for him. I'm looking to see the map updated. It might be worth your time to give it a look.

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Oh no there ace, don't feel sorry for me. Calling a spade a spade isn't attacking. .......

 

 

Let's examine the ways you are lying again. Perhaps you should get a CO or OR and you won't feel the need to lie anymore!

 

......

 

But if you examine what I said in context it really demonstrates you are lying AGAIN.

 

......

 

What does it take to get you to stop lying?

 

.......

 

I am not going to address any of the other stuff you say as you are nothing but a liar.

Congratulations, OTR! :o

 

By accusing you of lying he has now placed you in a very esteemed postion - along side me! :)

 

That's because he has previously accused me (and others) of lying here in Post #76:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...15010&st=50

 

QUOTE of myotis in the link above

....Nor does listening to beta testers that do not give the whole truth. ....

 

See, the problem here is that if I've been successful of lying by omission, that is, not telling the whole truth, how does this false accuser of me know that?

That is, aquistion of the facts of a successful lie of that nature is impossible.

 

It's a contradiction it terms - the accusation that I lied is a lie in and of itself.

 

Falsely accusing me of lying is one of two things, a mistake out of ignorance or a malicious lie in itself.

Your choice, was the accusation against me of being a liar:

1. An irrational act out of stupidity due one's failure to think rationally and logically, or

2. A vituperative, malevolent act of lying?

 

Outside of that, my conscience is clean. :anicute:

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... there is an gpsfiledepot Oregon map in production and it is planned on being available in a format that can be used on both Delorme and Garmin unit
Good to know, thanks!

 

And steering back on topic, choosing a 60Csx vs. PN-40 (or more generically, Garmin vs. DeLorme): If it is being built in both formats, it doesn't weigh for or against either model :)

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... there is an gpsfiledepot Oregon map in production and it is planned on being available in a format that can be used on both Delorme and Garmin unit
Good to know, thanks!

 

And steering back on topic, choosing a 60Csx vs. PN-40 (or more generically, Garmin vs. DeLorme): If it is being built in both formats, it doesn't weigh for or against either model :)

I would think it would favor the PN-40 in this case.
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That's a very accurate assessment. DeLorme does not offer any international maps (not even for Canada). It's very unfortunate (and I believe shortsighted). For international use, a DeLorme product would not be the way to go.

 

Among all the 'pimping' of the pn-40, it's amazing to me that people don't drill this fact into the ground.... however thank you for answering this question!

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Even though Geocaching is international, I believe a high percentage of forum users are in the States. Add to that the fact that a high percentage of that group never travels outside the lower 48 and you see the result. As you probably know, a lot of people don't exactly have the broadest of horizons.

Edited by OpenTrackRacer
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That's a very accurate assessment. DeLorme does not offer any international maps (not even for Canada). It's very unfortunate (and I believe shortsighted). For international use, a DeLorme product would not be the way to go.

 

Among all the 'pimping' of the pn-40, it's amazing to me that people don't drill this fact into the ground.... however thank you for answering this question!

Yes, it is amazing. Not withstanding the USA in the title of the mapping software Topo USA 7.0:

http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtp...;minisite=10020

Although I strongly support truth in labeling, I guess that the fact needs to be spammed hourly. :)

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That's a very accurate assessment. DeLorme does not offer any international maps (not even for Canada). It's very unfortunate (and I believe shortsighted). For international use, a DeLorme product would not be the way to go.

 

Among all the 'pimping' of the pn-40, it's amazing to me that people don't drill this fact into the ground.... however thank you for answering this question!

Yes, it is amazing. Not withstanding the USA in the title of the mapping software Topo USA 7.0:

http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtp...;minisite=10020

Although I strongly support truth in labeling, I guess that the fact needs to be spammed hourly. :)

 

i believe he is talking about the fact that there are no delorme maps for outside the u.s. for example when i went on the delorme website i didn't just see the topo usa and think that was all there was, i kept looking for a while to find what other maps they had. i do a fair bit of traveling myself and not having other countries maps available for the pn-40 would be a deal breaker for me.

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i believe he is talking about the fact that there are no delorme maps for outside the u.s. for example when i went on the delorme website i didn't just see the topo usa and think that was all there was, i kept looking for a while to find what other maps they had. i do a fair bit of traveling myself and not having other countries maps available for the pn-40 would be a deal breaker for me.

Actually, I'm rather clueless regarding the implication of the post. Perhaps some elaboration of pimping and drill down accompanied with some example text.......

Edited by Team CowboyPapa
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That's a very accurate assessment. DeLorme does not offer any international maps (not even for Canada). It's very unfortunate (and I believe shortsighted). For international use, a DeLorme product would not be the way to go.

I think it's more a matter of resources and manpower. DeLorme is a very small company, so they have to focus on their primary market first - US customers.

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That's a very accurate assessment. DeLorme does not offer any international maps (not even for Canada). It's very unfortunate (and I believe shortsighted). For international use, a DeLorme product would not be the way to go.

 

Among all the 'pimping' of the pn-40, it's amazing to me that people don't drill this fact into the ground.... however thank you for answering this question!

Perhaps a little reSEARCH would have turned up this reference of mine in Post #10:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=215714

....the bundled Topo USA 7.0 mapping application ....

Where I refer to the product as Topo USA 7.0. Or, is that not sufficient?

 

So please help me here, am I remiss in:

1. Pimping and drilling down?

2. Pimping but not drilling down?

3. Not pimping but drilling down?

4. Neither pimping nor drilling down?

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A few quick points:

 

The 1/3 arc second topo data is used. It has 9 times the resolution as the data that was used to create the USGS 24K Topo maps. When processing the data, you can also choose what ever contour interval you want.

 

The CA topo map discussed is an old map that was made by a search and rescue team. So the road data is not very good. The SW USA topo map has good road data for CA. For the maps, generally one of two sources is used for the roads: TIGER Census data or State DOT files. The most accurate available is usually obtained.

 

These maps are not for street navigation, they are off road maps. And lets get real most of these USGS maps are decades old so their road data leaves lots to be desired.

 

For the hydrologhy the high resolution USGS data is used. It normally has lakes and stuff labeled as well as the USGS maps.

 

The free garmin maps get updated when there is better data.

 

No land use data yet-but I have found the USGS maps not to be very accurate since they are so old. There has been some work on trying to get some of the more recent landuse data vectorized. But I do not think it has been figured out yet.

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That's a very accurate assessment. DeLorme does not offer any international maps (not even for Canada). It's very unfortunate (and I believe shortsighted). For international use, a DeLorme product would not be the way to go.

 

Among all the 'pimping' of the pn-40, it's amazing to me that people don't drill this fact into the ground.... however thank you for answering this question!

Actually, it s mentioned in this thread and others. It is brought up to anybody outside the USA when they mention they might go after it.

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Even though Geocaching is international, I believe a high percentage of forum users are in the States. Add to that the fact that a high percentage of that group never travels outside the lower 48 and you see the result. As you probably know, a lot of people don't exactly have the broadest of horizons.

That's not a fair assesment. There are many reasons for not traveling outside the lower 48. Not having broad horizons would be the least of them.

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...This term 24K maps has been thrown around quite a bit. What exactly is meant by that? Are they a best approximation of the USGS 7.5 minute topographical quads? Or are there specific standards of accuracy for the elevation and topographical feature data?
1:24000 and 1:100000 are simply scales of the printed source map. 1:63360 is the same as 1 inch on a paper map being 1 mile over the ground.

 

USGS 7.5 minute quads were printed at 1:24000 scale. An older series of maps, the 15-minute series, was once used to map the contiguous 48 states at a scale of 1:62,500.

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topographic_map

 

Lee,

 

Thanks for the info on the map scales, it is helpful. What I was curious about was what standards of accuracy were being used in compiling the free Garmin 24K maps. They seem to excel in their contour lines which leads to the question of what data source they are using. On the National Map Seamless server, there are three sets of elevation data which are designated as 1 arc second, 1/3 arc second and 1/9 arc second. I am presuming the designation is for the spacing of the data points with closer spacing implying greater precision. I tried bringing the 1 arc second data into XMap using some of the techniques described for the Garmin free maps. Actually got the data in and it produced some very interesting contours. However they were displaced from the actual locations by 500 to 1000 ft so there is some problem in how I converted the data. However viewing these contours on a DeLorme map lead me to the conclusion the free maps render the contours with greater fidelity - if only i could figure out how to get them properly located. However the DeLorme maps are more than adequate for my purposes and much easier to load onto the GPS than brewing your own maps. Interesting to know it can be done.

 

(By the way the DeLorme maps are correct as I have been to the locations that I was examining and the DeLorme maps match what you see in the field)

 

But the point of all this is to get to the factual heart of the matter of how good are the 24k Garmin maps. Which I believe for most purposes are adequate but I would like to see more data to support the assumption.

 

Frodo

 

I use dem2topo which also requires ID4 virtual machine. Both are freeware. When I use it, I create a mp file but it also has an option to create a shape file.

 

One thing to bear in mind is you need different contour intervals for different zoom levels. If your map had a 10 ft contour interval at a .5 mile zoom, your screen would show nothing but contour lines. The way Garmin maps handle this is they have four vector layers that show at different zoom levels. So when you are using the garmin techiniques, you are creating 4 maps. I think I created a shapefile in dem2topo once and it created a shapfile that had the contours for the highest zoom (i.e., all the contour lines). However, if you zoom out and display the map all the contour line would show. But then again I am not sure how Delorme would handle the shapefile at various zooms-maybe since (I have been told) it converts the vectors to raster, zooming out may not be a problem. But perhaps understanding the Garmin maps have four different layers that display at various zoom levels might help you figure out a way to get it into the Delorome.

 

The water data that is used in the garmin maps is free on USGS servers and it is shapfile. But it is much harder to downlaod than the DEM data.

 

One thing I am curious about is if someone can figure out how to get the data to work on the Delorome, could a user created map like that be shared?

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:) I almost choked on my pretzels with latest missive. Note to self: from now on, don't eat or drink while reading myotis' posts!

 

So, what he's saying is that Garmins are much better because you get updated, excellent quality 1:24K topo maps... except when they're old, inaccurate and lacking map labels. Oh, and they're not routeable and have no POI's. Other than that, they're way better than anything available for the PN-40.

 

Will the fun ever end?

 

A few quick points:

 

The 1/3 arc second topo data is used. It has 9 times the resolution as the data that was used to create the USGS 24K Topo maps. When processing the data, you can also choose what ever contour interval you want.

 

The CA topo map discussed is an old map that was made by a search and rescue team. So the road data is not very good. The SW USA topo map has good road data for CA. For the maps, generally one of two sources is used for the roads: TIGER Census data or State DOT files. The most accurate available is usually obtained.

 

These maps are not for street navigation, they are off road maps. And lets get real most of these USGS maps are decades old so their road data leaves lots to be desired.

 

For the hydrologhy the high resolution USGS data is used. It normally has lakes and stuff labeled as well as the USGS maps.

 

The free garmin maps get updated when there is better data.

 

No land use data yet-but I have found the USGS maps not to be very accurate since they are so old. There has been some work on trying to get some of the more recent landuse data vectorized. But I do not think it has been figured out yet.

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Fair enough but I still disagree (as do most surveys of Americans). Most of us do not have broad horizons and many are barely aware that there is a world outside of their town, let alone the country itself.

 

For a very publicized example, see Sarah Palin.

 

That's not a fair assesment. There are many reasons for not traveling outside the lower 48. Not having broad horizons would be the least of them.

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Fair enough but I still disagree (as do most surveys of Americans). Most of us do not have broad horizons and many are barely aware that there is a world outside of their town, let alone the country itself.

 

For a very publicized example, see Sarah Palin.

 

That's not a fair assesment. There are many reasons for not traveling outside the lower 48. Not having broad horizons would be the least of them.

You ping the Americans pretty hard for their failure to travel outside the country and come up with that as an example? I don't see you pinging other countries' country bound the same way with the same reasoning.

 

There was a study showing a very small percentage of all people travel outside their country. The majority of the world actually stays within a small commute distance from where they hang their hat for the night. The American population is not the exception. Your perception is askewed.

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Even though Geocaching is international, I believe a high percentage of forum users are in the States. Add to that the fact that a high percentage of that group never travels outside the lower 48 and you see the result. As you probably know, a lot of people don't exactly have the broadest of horizons.

That's not a fair assesment. There are many reasons for not traveling outside the lower 48. Not having broad horizons would be the least of them.

10-4. Like not wanting some semi-English speaking, IQ of 85, TSA agent commanding me to take my boots off.

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Other countries bounded the same or other first world countries bounded the same way? There's a big difference. That also applies to general mobility away from where people live and work. My example was not ideal... just a well known one. Americans are pretty insular. It's not simply that most of us don't travel outside the country. Many barely think about the world outside the country. This is not just my perception.

 

We're gonna get yelled at soon for being off topic! Wait for it...

 

You ping the Americans pretty hard for their failure to travel outside the country and come up with that as an example? I don't see you pinging other countries' country bound the same way with the same reasoning.

 

There was a study showing a very small percentage of all people travel outside their country. The majority of the world actually stays within a small commute distance from where they hang their hat for the night. The American population is not the exception. Your perception is askewed.

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One thing I am curious about is if someone can figure out how to get the data to work on the Delorome, could a user created map like that be shared?

That's a good question...the Delorme maps have a serial number or some such identifier emebedded in the map file to allow it to run on a particular PN device. A single TopoUSA installation can create maps for as many PN devices as are registered with it (register in the sense of telling the TopoUSA program "Hey, make it work for me!", not registering with Delorme).

 

If the map is installed via Topo7 or XMap, I'm pretty sure it would work...but that implies that the programs would need to recognize the data. They use a different format, of course. Are these maps being made for viewing and conversion in Topo7? If the maps are being made and distributed in PN format, I'm doubtful that they would work.

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:) I almost choked on my pretzels with latest missive. Note to self: from now on, don't eat or drink while reading myotis' posts!

 

So, what he's saying is that Garmins are much better because you get updated, excellent quality 1:24K topo maps... except when they're old, inaccurate and lacking map labels. Oh, and they're not routeable and have no POI's. Other than that, they're way better than anything available for the PN-40.

 

Will the fun ever end?

 

A few quick points:

 

The 1/3 arc second topo data is used. It has 9 times the resolution as the data that was used to create the USGS 24K Topo maps. When processing the data, you can also choose what ever contour interval you want.

 

The CA topo map discussed is an old map that was made by a search and rescue team. So the road data is not very good. The SW USA topo map has good road data for CA. For the maps, generally one of two sources is used for the roads: TIGER Census data or State DOT files. The most accurate available is usually obtained.

 

These maps are not for street navigation, they are off road maps. And lets get real most of these USGS maps are decades old so their road data leaves lots to be desired.

 

For the hydrologhy the high resolution USGS data is used. It normally has lakes and stuff labeled as well as the USGS maps.

 

The free garmin maps get updated when there is better data.

 

No land use data yet-but I have found the USGS maps not to be very accurate since they are so old. There has been some work on trying to get some of the more recent landuse data vectorized. But I do not think it has been figured out yet.

 

Liar, most people with a little intelligence can figure out how to use the other map that has the road data and the POI data. But then again you chose to use an inferior GPS, I guess it follows that you also chose to use the map without the better road data and POIs. What else should I expect from a liar and PN40 owner-particularly one that cannot open their mouth without lying. And since the Garmin maps are vector, I can have Street navigation for all of US and Canada and all the 24K topo maps I want loaded on my GPS. Maybe if you did not have to spend so much time dealing with getting the maps on the GPS you could find more caches! A CO would help find more caches too! So with your inferior technology and inability to tell the truth, I expect nothing less from you.

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