60csx or pn-40

4.3k · March 1, 2009

The reason I keep responding is I see misrepresentations like the Delorome 24K topos are the best thing since sliced bread and no info on their drawbacks.

Myotis, please stop putting words in other people's mouths and ignoring what HAS been said.

I never said DeLorme's maps were better than other vendors'. I've pointed out that in their favor, DeLorme offers a wide variety of imagery types for the entire United states, in one place for download, with software they directly support. But I have also pointed out the most significant drawbacks with DeLorme's offerings, most notably the tedium of getting large areas downloaded, how much space they take up on the GPS, and the fact that bitmaps don't look great at all zoom levels.

I believe even your chief nemesis here has conceded all of those points, and nobody is insisting DeLorme's maps are the greatest and without drawbacks. It would be just as silly to insist that maps available for Garmin (either directly from Garmin or provided by 3rd party open-source contributors) were perfect.

But it would be hard to read every single word (or even FIND everything) in this thread because some folks don't know how to keep it short.

Can we please move on? Do you have anything new to add?

2.1k · March 1, 2009

File it all under OBVIOUS, stop trying to gouge each others eyes out, and move on to ANYTHING else? PLEASE?

I would be DELIGHTED to find something new, useful, and relevant in this or any thread around here

10-4, happy to comply!

My 4WD will get me to back country caches faster than yours can!

2.1k · March 1, 2009

...(Delorme's map data) are not huge.
Huge is not a technical term.

How about the often repeated itty bitty?

2.1k · March 1, 2009

.... all these Delorome Beta testers have no bias!

Thanks!

Furthermore, are you going to retract the accusation that we are liars?

Reference to accusation here in Post #76:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...15010&st=50

2.1k · March 2, 2009

....Delorome .....DeLorome. ....Delorome. Delorome ...Delorome .....

...... Delorome GPSs, ......Garmin on .....Garmin .....Delorome ......

What I've noticed regarding this poster's responses is that while Garmin is spelled correctly, there is a total misspelling of DeLorme, without exception.

For completeness, I might refer to other posts in this thread, specifically numbers 17, 20, 21, 35, 44, 46, 50, 51, 62, 107, 128, 142, 146 and 148, with many of these posts also having multiple misspellings.

Given the choice in assuming the cause as being purposeful or accidental, I prefer to choose the accidental as being motiveless. If so, I might be able to identify a possible cause and effect and then offer a subsequent plan of recovery to enhanced spelling.

As to cause and effect, my first guess would be that it is an issue of eye to hand coordination.

That being the case, would you like me to recommend an optometrist or a chiropractor? Both?

1.2k · March 2, 2009

...(Delorme's map data) are not huge.
Huge is not a technical term. But DeLorme's map data do take up a lot more space than Garmin's for any given area of coverage.

The Topo7 data files for the US take up 4.53 GB of disk space. Exported to the GPS would take 20.80 GB. And what's in the box is the most "compact" data you can get from DeLorme -- every other type of imagery downloadable from the subscription service is larger for a given amount of square mile coverage.

Embra and I exchanged notes with another user about this who wanted all of Michigan in USGS 1:24K topos from DeLorme -- we estimated Michigan's topos would take over 20GB alone: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=3847695. And those downloaded maps are scanned images that become pixelated at high zoom levels.

I'm not saying DeLorme's material isn't useful -- but I'd concede the point about "bitmaps" and "huge" to M. and move on to something else.

Got anything new on this subject?

That is really strange. For comparision on the Garmin, TopoUSA2008 takes up less than 3 gigs on the GPS and that includes DEM data. But it does not include route calculation data. On the Delorome, does the the topo data also have the road data-can you load Street Atlas? On the Garmin, City Navigator (road navigation) for the entire US and Canada takes less than 2 gig. So for Garmin, you could load all of TOPOUSA, City Navigator, and 24K data for the entire country in less that half the space the topo maps would take on the PN40. Is not the TOPO7 data vector? Does Delorome not compress the data or is there some other reason why the files are so much bigger?

1.2k · March 2, 2009

The reason I keep responding is I see misrepresentations like the Delorome 24K topos are the best thing since sliced bread and no info on their drawbacks.
Myotis, please stop putting words in other people's mouths and ignoring what HAS been said.

I never said DeLorme's maps were better than other vendors'. I've pointed out that in their favor, DeLorme offers a wide variety of imagery types for the entire United states, in one place for download, with software they directly support. But I have also pointed out the most significant drawbacks with DeLorme's offerings, most notably the tedium of getting large areas downloaded, how much space they take up on the GPS, and the fact that bitmaps don't look great at all zoom levels.

I believe even your chief nemesis here has conceded all of those points, and nobody is insisting DeLorme's maps are the greatest and without drawbacks. It would be just as silly to insist that maps available for Garmin (either directly from Garmin or provided by 3rd party open-source contributors) were perfect.

But it would be hard to read every single word (or even FIND everything) in this thread because some folks don't know how to keep it short.

Can we please move on? Do you have anything new to add?

That reference was not refering to you

1.2k · March 2, 2009

....Delorome .....DeLorome. ....Delorome. Delorome ...Delorome .....

...... Delorome GPSs, ......Garmin on .....Garmin .....Delorome ......

What I've noticed regarding this poster's responses is that while Garmin is spelled correctly, there is a total misspelling of DeLorme, without exception.

For completeness, I might refer to other posts in this thread, specifically numbers 17, 20, 21, 35, 44, 46, 50, 51, 62, 107, 128, 142, 146 and 148, with many of these posts also having multiple misspellings.

Given the choice in assuming the cause as being purposeful or accidental, I prefer to choose the accidental as being motiveless. If so, I might be able to identify a possible cause and effect and then offer a subsequent plan of recovery to enhanced spelling.

As to cause and effect, my first guess would be that it is an issue of eye to hand coordination.

That being the case, would you like me to recommend an optometrist or a chiropractor? Both?

You are getting really creepy and obsessive. I woul suggest it might be more fun to try to find a cache than try to find misspellings.

4.3k · March 2, 2009

...On the Delorome, does the the topo data also have the road data-can you load Street Atlas?

I don't know what is this "Delorome" of which you speak :laughing:

The software included with the DeLorme PN-40 is called Topo 7 USA. Includes street data, POIs, and topo contours of approximately 1:100000 quality. All of the data can be displayed on the PC and loaded to the GPS from this one program.

The supplied data is vector based. However, I believe (and some folks tell me I'm wrong about this) that when exported to the GPS it is composited as a set of layered bitmaps for each zoom level. Bitmaps or not, exported T7 data takes up about 4.5 times more space on the GPS than on the hard drive, and resides in two files -- one with an extension of PM0 and another of type YBR. I think the PM0 contains the basic map images and the YBR contains routing and POI info.

All of the other imagery you can download from the optional subscription service (like USGS 1:24K topos) are bitmaps, and is exported as PM0 files.

But I am just guessing on some of the "how it works" details and would be delighted if someone who actually works for DeLorme or has real access to technical details would chime in. Without that kind of source material, what anyone else tells you here is just a guess

I do not know if you can load detail maps from the Street Atlas (a different DeLorme program) or if there would be any need to.

Edited March 2, 2009 by lee_rimar

1.2k · March 2, 2009

...On the Delorome, does the the topo data also have the road data-can you load Street Atlas?
I don't know what is this "Delorome" of which you speak

The software included with the DeLorme PN-40 is called Topo 7 USA. Includes street data, POIs, and topo contours of approximately 1:100000 quality. All of the data can be displayed on the PC and loaded to the GPS from this one program.

The supplied data is vector based. However, I believe (and some folks tell me I'm wrong about this) that when exported to the GPS it is composited as a set of layered bitmaps for each zoom level. Bitmaps or not, exported T7 data takes up about 4.5 times more space on the GPS than on the hard drive, and resides in two files -- one with an extension of PM0 and another of type YBR. I think the PM0 contains the basic map images and the YBR contains routing and POI info.

All of the other imagery you can download from the optional subscription service (like USGS 1:24K topos) are bitmaps, and is exported as PM0 files.

But I am just guessing on some of the "how it works" details and would be delighted if someone who actually works for DeLorme or has real access to technical details would chime in. Without that kind of source material, what anyone else tells you here is just a guess

I do not know if you can load detail maps from the Street Atlas (a different DeLorme program) or if there would be any need to.

So is what you are saying is for each zoom level, a separate bitmap is created? That would explain why it takes so much space. But to me it does not make sense to convert the topo and street vector data into bitmaps.

The reason I brought up Street Atlas is I have seen some people complain about the street data (no one ways, accuracy, etc.) and remember how good of street data Street Atlas has always had (but it was certainly not perfect-nothing is). Before I got my CO I would cache with my laptop, Street Atlas, and my Delorome usb GPS. I really liked how with Street Atlas and GSAK you could click on the cache and get the cache page. Can you do that with TopoUSA 7 (can you click on the cache in topoUSA and have an option to view the cache page)?

Street Atlas would also let you export maps to a PDA (which could have a GPS connected) and use the SA maps. It would do routing and worked well. The maps loaded on the PDA appeared to be vector.

I have an earlier version of Delorome's TopoUSA. I found it hard to use, but for many things it was the best thing available. I also found issues with the accuracy of the way it dealt with topo data-for example bluffs would look like a hill. Another issue I had with it was the hydrology was equivalent to 100K. Does it still have 100K hydrology? But it gave a general ideal and was very helpful. I also spent like $100 for the USGS 24K maps for MO that could be displayed in TopoUSA. They worked well but that was pre DVD and being able to load stuff on a harddrive. The biggest pain was if you had the wrong CD in you would get an error message but it would not tell you which CD you need and it was difficult to get the right CD. But I guess with the subscription, you no longer have that problem. But can you transfer the map data from one computer to the other-if you download it on your desktop, can you transfer it to your laptop?

4.3k · March 2, 2009

...So is what you are saying is for each zoom level, a separate bitmap is created?

No. Why don't you go read my earlier message (which you quoted in its entirety) to see what I really did say?

What I am saying is that the exported files on the GPS are much larger than the files on hard disk. This is a simple, observable fact. I also offered some guesses why -- but admitted that any ideas I have about how they store the files is a GUESS. I haven't had anyone who works for DeLorme or has access to internal technical details to brief me on how it really works.

What part of that didn't you get the first several times I explained it?

Edited March 2, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 2, 2009

... I also spent like $100 for the USGS 24K maps for MO that could be displayed in TopoUSA.... if you had the wrong CD in you would get an error message...I guess with the subscription, you no longer have that problem. But can you transfer the map data from one computer to the other-if you download it on your desktop, can you transfer it to your laptop?

The license for Topo 7 allows installation on two computers. The Data subscription can likewise be enabled on two computers.

Data files, once downloaded and cut for export to GPS, can be archived on any hard drive, DVD, or media of your choice. And since the PN-40 mounts like a disk drive on your computer, once you have those files built you can copy them to the GPS without having to fire up T7.

Edited March 2, 2009 by lee_rimar

8.9k · March 2, 2009

About the no one way roads thought, if you search T7's options, I believe you can choose to show one way roads. Whether that also means on the GPS, I don't know!

March 2, 2009

Wait... before you got your Colorado you cached with a notebook at Street Atlas USA? I can't resist... how did you manage dealing with that itty bitty screen on the Colorado after using a notebook computer? Oh the humanity!

As requested, here is a further zoom on that location from the PN-40 using DeLorme topo maps. 20' was overzoomed so I did 40'...

The Garmin maps I've been posting may indeed be 1:100K but that's all I have on my 60CSx. It would be very enlightining if you posted a screen shot from your Colorado of the same location at similar zoom levels.

Looking back at some of your previous posts, it seems like you're still missing the main point of my original post. Neither the Garmin or gpsfiledepot topo maps (nor the DeLorme topo maps for that matter) had the mine adit I was looking for on them. 1:100K, 1:24K, it doesn't matter. If the point of interest you need are not on the map, the resolution of the data is irrelevant. I needed to find something that was not in my GPS as a waypoint. I had a basic idea of where it was but not enough to navigate using the compass, in the fog and dark, over hilly terrain. The USGS quads I had loaded into my PN-40 did have the mine adit on it, along with several others nearby that were helpful for navigation. USGS quads almost always have more data on them compared to vectorized products from DeLorme, Garmin and National Geographic. That can (and in my case did) make a huge difference. The monochrome aerial photography was the icing on the cake because it showed both the trestle I knew led to the adit and the ore bins of the nearby mine.

I would rather have 1:100K vector topos along with the raster USGS quads and other georeferenced imagery data than 1:24K vector topos alone. That's one of the reasons I bought a PN-40 to succeed my 60CSx instead of a Colorado or Oregon. I was tempted by the Oregon. I like the touchscren and the size of the display. I also really like the shaded terrain and 3D DEM view. However, in the end, the capabilities of the PN-40 won out. The significantly lower cost was a factor, but not the deciding one. If I used my GPS mainly for caching, my decision might have been different.

The reason I brought up Street Atlas is I have seen some people complain about the street data (no one ways, accuracy, etc.) and remember how good of street data Street Atlas has always had (but it was certainly not perfect-nothing is). Before I got my CO I would cache with my laptop, Street Atlas, and my Delorome usb GPS. I really liked how with Street Atlas and GSAK you could click on the cache and get the cache page. Can you do that with TopoUSA 7 (can you click on the cache in topoUSA and have an option to view the cache page)?

March 2, 2009

Argh! Double post. Sorry.

Edited March 2, 2009 by OpenTrackRacer

4.3k · March 3, 2009

Neither the Garmin or gpsfiledepot topo maps (nor the DeLorme topo maps for that matter) had the mine adit I was looking for on them. 1:100K, 1:24K, it doesn't matter. If the point of interest you need are not on the map, the resolution of the data is irrelevant...

And ... if you can't even FIND a map or imagery for your GPS at all... the fact that someone made great topos for the state next door does you no good either.

That might seem obvious to some, but the wide coverage of DeLorme's data subscription, for all imagery types, is one of its biggest selling points. I'm sometimes annoyed and discouraged by how tedious it can be to get the maps I want, and trying to figure out what will fit on my "itty bitty" 16GB SDHC card :laughing: -- but at least the maps and imagery I want are all available from one place and only cost me $30/yr for access.

Garmin's commercially available maps and open source at gpsfiledeopt can't touch that (yet).

1.2k · March 3, 2009

Neither the Garmin or gpsfiledepot topo maps (nor the DeLorme topo maps for that matter) had the mine adit I was looking for on them. 1:100K, 1:24K, it doesn't matter. If the point of interest you need are not on the map, the resolution of the data is irrelevant...
And ... if you can't even FIND a map or imagery for your GPS at all... the fact that someone made great topos for the state next door does you no good either.

That might seem obvious to some, but the wide coverage of DeLorme's data subscription, for all imagery types, is one of its biggest selling points. I'm sometimes annoyed and discouraged by how tedious it can be to get the maps I want, and trying to figure out what will fit on my "itty bitty" 16GB SDHC card -- but at least the maps and imagery I want are all available from one place and only cost me $30/yr for access.

Garmin's commercially available maps and open source at gpsfiledeopt can't touch that (yet).

It is getting close to having the entire country in 24K. In the last 3 days 5 new states have been added to GPSFileDepot. And don't forget, anything you can load on the PN40, you can load on a Garmin. Rasters are harder but they can be loaded. IMHO, it is easier to trip plan and look at the topos/aerials before you go and if there is something you need, trace it and add it to the map as a vector than having to deal with loading all that stuff.

4.3k · March 3, 2009

It is getting close...

Another way of saying "not there yet." What does gpsfiledepot have for Oregon (the state, not the GPS)? Today when I need it, not maybe next week/month/year?

DeLorme has, in one place, multiple forms of aerial imagery and USGS 1:24K for the entire USA, available now. Garmin doesn't.

Edited March 3, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 3, 2009

...IMHO, it is easier to trip plan and look at the topos/aerials before you go and if there is something you need, trace it and add it to the map as a vector than having to deal with loading all that stuff.

Yes, it is easier to plan a trip ahead of time on the computer.

But the second part of your opinion confuses me. If "there is something I need" I think it would be a lot easier to load the exact map I'm using from the PC to the GPS.

Edited March 3, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 3, 2009

[deleted]

Edited March 3, 2009 by lee_rimar

1.2k · March 3, 2009

OpenTrackRacer is in blue

Wait... before you got your Colorado you cached with a notebook at Street Atlas USA? I can't resist... how did you manage dealing with that itty bitty screen on the Colorado after using a notebook computer? Oh the humanity!

I can remember what a pain it was when I had an itty bitty screen so I can understand why you react like this with such inferior techonology. A couple of points, if you compare the CO's screen to my laptop in the number of dots, the laptop has 5 times as many. Certinaly a laptop screen can have its advantages, but you cannot take it with you in the field or hold it in your hand while driving. You also cannot operate it while you are driving, if you are navigating, it is hard to operate the touch pad and the screen can be hard to see when the sun hits it, and it gets hot. Then there is the problem of having to hide and secure it everytime you get a cache. Street Atlas also had the problem of not marking the caches as found. But the CO crosses the threshold of haivng enough sreen dots to be able to get the big picture. The PN40/20 60CSX, etc, do not have the screen dots to be able to see ehough to get the big picture. Nuvi's have bigger screens, but they are not an easy unit to carry around in your hand. IMHO, for a handheld GPS, if you get a screen much bigger than the CO has, the GPS itself will get too big.

As requested, here is a further zoom on that location from the PN-40 using DeLorme topo maps. 20' was overzoomed so I did 40'...

That is the 100K vector, what I was wanting to see you do is show a 24K map zoomed in that far.

The Garmin maps I've been posting may indeed be 1:100K but that's all I have on my 60CSx. It would be very enlightining if you posted a screen shot from your Colorado of the same location at similar zoom levels.

Actually one of your posts you had the free 24K topo on your GPS. It is like that but twice as big on the CO (well on the 60CSX I found the zoom level of 300 ft was the best, but on the CO 500 ft works the best)

Looking back at some of your previous posts, it seems like you're still missing the main point of my original post. Neither the Garmin or gpsfiledepot topo maps (nor the DeLorme topo maps for that matter) had the mine adit I was looking for on them. 1:100K, 1:24K, it doesn't matter. If the point of interest you need are not on the map, the resolution of the data is irrelevant. I needed to find something that was not in my GPS as a waypoint. I had a basic idea of where it was but not enough to navigate using the compass, in the fog and dark, over hilly terrain. The USGS quads I had loaded into my PN-40 did have the mine adit on it, along with several others nearby that were helpful for navigation. USGS quads almost always have more data on them compared to vectorized products from DeLorme, Garmin and National Geographic. That can (and in my case did) make a huge difference. The monochrome aerial photography was the icing on the cake because it showed both the trestle I knew led to the adit and the ore bins of the nearby mine.

No I got your point. I just do not believe the story you are telling to make your point-there are too many holes in your story. But there certainly is no doubt that there are some very limited circumstances where the actual USGS map can have stuff that is not on the Garmin vector map. Buildings are another example-some times you can find an old cabin with the dot on the map. But anything that is on a USGS map or aerial, I can trace/waypoint in ExpertGPS or GoogleEarth and add it as a vector to an overlay map that will show on top of the topomap. The process to do this is much easier and faster than getting the USGS map on the Delorome. After I trace and waypoint in ExpertGps or GE, I can have it in a vector map in less than 5 minutes. And another big advantage for Garmin is all the people like me working to get all this data together and sharing it in free maps.

Another problem with the USGS maps is a GPS is much more accurate than you can read a 24K map. The USGS maps are not exactly accurate. Have you walked a trail on a USGS and noticed how far off they normally are (if they are even on the map). I remember the days of using the UTM grid and a UTM reader to get the coordinates of something like a cave or spring and then using the GPS to find it. Lots of times these things are quite a ways off. And there is also the problem of the symbols being big and not knowing the exact location. What we really need is more people getting trail and POI actual locations and sharing them for maps. The Garmin community is doing a real good job of this and hopefully more people will get involved .

I would rather have 1:100K vector topos along with the raster USGS quads and other georeferenced imagery data than 1:24K vector topos alone. That's one of the reasons I bought a PN-40 to succeed my 60CSx instead of a Colorado or Oregon. I was tempted by the Oregon. I like the touchscren and the size of the display. I also really like the shaded terrain and 3D DEM view. However, in the end, the capabilities of the PN-40 won out. The significantly lower cost was a factor, but not the deciding one. If I used my GPS mainly for caching, my decision might have been different.

If the USGS 24K and aerials where as easy to load as the Garmin 24K maps and did not have the huge space problems I would load them. But they are not. My preference is always have everything I need on the GPS and trip plan to get anything else I may need from tracing. What happens if you forget a place to download a map for or if you do not have the space for everywhere on your trip?

1.2k · March 3, 2009

...IMHO, it is easier to trip plan and look at the topos/aerials before you go and if there is something you need, trace it and add it to the map as a vector than having to deal with loading all that stuff.
Yes, it is easier to plan a trip ahead of time on the computer.

But the second part of your opinion confuses me. If "there is something I need" I think it would be a lot easier to load the exact map I'm using from the PC to the GPS.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Lets look at this screen shot:

In the screen shot the red lines are trails that I have GPSed. The things like the campsite, cave, picnic, parking, shelter, etc are all things I waypointed (the cave is gated). All of these waypoints and trails are a transparent map layer that shows on top of the other maps. When I GPS something or someone gives me something I GPSed, I add it to the map. If there is something like the mine audit on the USGS map, I can mark it as a waypoint in ExpertGPS. If there is something like a bike trail that shows up in Google Earth, I can trace it in GE. Then I just add what I waypointed or traced to the overlay map. It is real simple to do this-much easier than loading the USGS for the PN40. After I do this, it is also in vector. It also has the advantage of having everything you need on one map.

If you want to see more, download gpsmapedit here:

http://www.geopainting.com/en/

then go here

http://mapcenter.cgpsmapper.com/maplist.php?id=2549

and download the build source and open it in gpsmapedit. Press ctrl 0 and everything in the map will display.

4.3k · March 3, 2009

Myotis, you're talking about marking up maps as if it's a unique feature in gpsmapedit or the Garmin. I can add any number of trails, waypoints, etc to my maps on the PN-40 using Topo 7. Bike trail in Google Earth? Waypoints, mine or someone elses? Export as GPX, import to Topo 7 and exchange to GPS as a drawing layer.

Which is not saying anything special or unique about Topo 7 or the PN-40. EVERY mapping GPS I have ever had has come with software that let me add my own data to display on the GPS. Didn't yours?

Edited March 3, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 3, 2009

Myotis -- do yourself (and all of us) all a favor....

Go to REI and buy a PN-40. Learn to use it and give it a good work out for a couple of weeks. Try out the stuff people here tell you about, and anything else you'd be interested in. If you really hate it - REI has very liberal return policies and you're not out anything except time spent learning something.

But at the very worst, you'll end up better informed about what your talking about. If you still want to argue Garmin vs DeLorme, at least you would be arguing from a position of experience with both current products.

1.2k · March 3, 2009

Myotis, you're talking about marking up maps as if it's a unique feature in gpsmapedit or the Garmin. I can add any number of trails, waypoints, etc to my maps on the PN-40 using Topo 7. Bike trail in Google Earth? Waypoints, mine or someone elses? Export as GPX, import to Topo 7 and exchange to GPS as a drawing layer.

Which is not saying anything special or unique about Topo 7 or the PN-40. EVERY mapping GPS I have ever had has come with software that let me add my own data to display on the GPS. Didn't yours?

So why did you ask the quesiton? I answered. Why would I want to spend all the time to load a USGS map when I can have a map like this much easier and not have to switch maps?

March 3, 2009

I think it's hopeless. Myotis isn't interested in facts, he's only interested in arguing and promoting his hidebound beliefs. Everytime someone makes a point that refutes what he's posted, he ignores the information and attacks from a different direction. His arguments are so circular that I'm getting dizzy.

Face it, he will not concede an inch. The only answer that will satisfy him is that the PN-40 is inferior to the Colorado/Oregon products.

I just realized something else tonight when I saw his post in another thread. He really does love to mislead and obscure the facts. From reading his posts in this thread, he'll have you believe that the Colorado and Oregon 400t models come with 1:24K topo maps. They don't. The preloaded topo maps on those models are based on 1:100K data. That's the same resolution as you get standard with the PN-40 (for $300 less than an Oregon 400t). To get 1:24K maps you have to buy additional DVD or MicroSD card map sets from Garmin or download free maps (some made by myotis) of unknown quality and accuracy from a place like gpsfiledeopt. He blasts and discounts the fact that you can get excellent raster USGS quads with 1:24K resolution for the entire U.S. for only $30 a year from DeLorme (along with four kinds of aerial and satellite imagery plus NOAA charts). In short, he lies and distorts information to fit his views.

There is no point in debating the facts with him because he refuses to be bound by them. He just wants to dance around the truth and argue some more.

Pathetic.

4.3k · March 3, 2009

Why would I want to spend all the time to load a USGS map when I can have a map like this much easier and not have to switch maps?

We live in different places, literally and philisophically.

For you, "all the time to load and switch maps" is inconvenient. For me, it would be inconvenient to have to locate, buy, or make and markup a map that nobody else has made yet for where I live. Free topos for the Garmin don't exists for the state of Oregon yet. Garmin's 1:24K topos that DO exist for Oregon+Washington cost an additional $90-$100. Aerial imagery that I can load on the Garmin? Find and compile it myself?

Your Garmin solution would be less convenient and take more time and money for me than just downloading available maps and imagery direct from DeLorme.

As for "switching maps" -- I don't have to. On any given day, I'm only likely to be in Oregon or Washington. All of the maps and aerial imagery I need, for places I can get to in a day or two of walking/bicycling/driving, fits on my GPS without having to switch anything out. If I take a longer trip, I guess "get maps" would be on my trip planning check list - but it always has been, whether traveling with GPS or paper maps <_<

Being able to load the whole USA (or world, or galaxy) might sound cool - but only for bragging rights if 99.99% of the maps are for places you aren't going.

Edited March 3, 2009 by lee_rimar

8.9k · March 3, 2009

As for "switching maps" -- I don't have to. On any given day, I'm only likely to be in Oregon or Washington. All of the maps and aerial imagery I need, for places I can get to in a day or two of walking/bicycling/driving, fits on my GPS without having to switch anything out. If I take a longer trip, I guess "get maps" would be on my trip planning check list - but it always has been, whether traveling with GPS or paper maps

Being able to load the whole USA (or world, or galaxy) might sound cool - but only for bragging rights if 99.99% of the maps are for places you aren't going.

This is what gets me on myotis' argument...so you can have the whole USA on your GPS....and? I'll be lucky if I can get out of Michigan this year for any fun and caching, so having Michigan on my GPS is pretty much all I'll need! As well, I have not only the TOPO on there, I also have the 24k, the color aerial and a few hi-res city images loaded...with plenty of room for more on my 1G card! I've yet to even bother buying a 16G card, but I will soon, want all of Michigan and Ohio on my GPS in case I do go south of the border (I'm a mere 20 miles or so from Ohio).

1.2k · March 3, 2009

Why would I want to spend all the time to load a USGS map when I can have a map like this much easier and not have to switch maps?
We live in different places, literally and philisophically.

For you, "all the time to load and switch maps" is inconvenient. For me, it would be inconvenient to have to locate, buy, or make and markup a map that nobody else has made yet for where I live. Free topos for the Garmin don't exists for the state of Oregon yet. Garmin's 1:24K topos that DO exist for Oregon+Washington cost an additional $90-$100. Aerial imagery that I can load on the Garmin? Find and compile it myself?

Your Garmin solution would be less convenient and take more time and money for me than just downloading available maps and imagery direct from DeLorme.

As for "switching maps" -- I don't have to. On any given day, I'm only likely to be in Oregon or Washington. All of the maps and aerial imagery I need, for places I can get to in a day or two of walking/bicycling/driving, fits on my GPS without having to switch anything out. If I take a longer trip, I guess "get maps" would be on my trip planning check list - but it always has been, whether traveling with GPS or paper maps

Being able to load the whole USA (or world, or galaxy) might sound cool - but only for bragging rights if 99.99% of the maps are for places you aren't going.

There is a free 24K topo map for the PNW which includes all of OR/WA that is being conpiled right now as part of the project that will cover all the 48 states. Right now only the Southern half is covered by the project and the PNW is next. There is already a map for Hawaii and a good part of AK is already covered. So within a few months people will be able to get free 24K quailty topo maps for all of Canada and all of the US except part of AK.

Well how much space do you need on your GPS to cover all of WA/OR with the topos and the various aerial shots?

I live in IL. if I wanted to take a trip to CA going via AR TX, AZ,NM and then take the I-70 route through UT CO, KS MO? What would I have to do to get maps for all the areas I might end up going to. What if I did not have a laptop to switch maps? On my CO, I would not have to do anything. Or what if you wanted to fly to DC from OR and wanted to have maps loaded so you can see what you are flying over? I enjoy looking at the maps when I fly to see what I am looking at below. So how do you know what to load and would you be able to fit everything you needed?

8.9k · March 3, 2009

I live in IL. if I wanted to take a trip to CA going via AR TX, AZ,NM and then take the I-70 route through UT CO, KS MO? What would I have to do to get maps for all the areas I might end up going to. What if I did not have a laptop to switch maps? On my CO, I would not have to do anything. Or what if you wanted to fly to DC from OR and wanted to have maps loaded so you can see what you are flying over? I enjoy looking at the maps when I fly to see what I am looking at below. So how do you know what to load and would you be able to fit everything you needed?

Just a guess here since I don't know anything for sure, but that'd all fit on a 16G with plenty of room for aerial imagery to boot. Probably could throw in some hi-res city images and some 24k too, if you want!

Edited March 3, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

1.2k · March 3, 2009

I think it's hopeless. Myotis isn't interested in facts, he's only interested in arguing and promoting his hidebound beliefs. Everytime someone makes a point that refutes what he's posted, he ignores the information and attacks from a different direction. His arguments are so circular that I'm getting dizzy.

Face it, he will not concede an inch. The only answer that will satisfy him is that the PN-40 is inferior to the Colorado/Oregon products.

I just realized something else tonight when I saw his post in another thread. He really does love to mislead and obscure the facts. From reading his posts in this thread, he'll have you believe that the Colorado and Oregon 400t models come with 1:24K topo maps. They don't. The preloaded topo maps on those models are based on 1:100K data. That's the same resolution as you get standard with the PN-40 (for $300 less than an Oregon 400t). To get 1:24K maps you have to buy additional DVD or MicroSD card map sets from Garmin or download free maps (some made by myotis) of unknown quality and accuracy from a place like gpsfiledeopt. He blasts and discounts the fact that you can get excellent raster USGS quads with 1:24K resolution for the entire U.S. for only $30 a year from DeLorme (along with four kinds of aerial and satellite imagery plus NOAA charts). In short, he lies and distorts information to fit his views.

There is no point in debating the facts with him because he refuses to be bound by them. He just wants to dance around the truth and argue some more.

Pathetic.

I feel sorry for you. It seems like with your inferior techonology you cannot accept the facts and attack people and make stuff up instead of addressing the facts to compensate for your inferior techonology. It seems you cannot have a debate on the facts.

All you do is name call and make stuff up-just like you have here where you claim I am making peole think the CO/OR come with the 24K maps. I notice you don't cite where I supposedly did this-obvioulsy you know it is not true. Just like many other things you keep saying.

And you go about your misleading claims again-what is your basis about the unknown quality of the free Garmin maps? And lets get real on the USGS maps many of these maps are decades old. The topograpphy and hydrology of the Garmin maps are more up to date and accurate than what is on the USGS maps. We also know many times the USGS maps are wrong. Many times I have compared my track to where the map shows the trail and it was way off or did not show the trailo at all? Many times I you found something on the map is no longer there or the location is way off.

March 3, 2009

Sounds like some of you guys have way to much time on your hands. Maybe you can recommend some good stocks to buy?

4.3k · March 3, 2009

There is a free 24K topo map for the PNW which includes all of OR/WA that is being conpiled right now...

Cool. When it's finished, show me a screen shot of Mt Tabor, Portland Oregon. That's what I usually look at for comparisons.

...how much space do you need on your GPS to cover all of WA/OR with the topos and the various aerial shots?

Oregon and Washington, street detail and the included 1:100K topos, fill about 1.5 gig. I've only downloaded the USGS 1:24K topos for the Portland metro area and don't have that size number right in front of me (will post it later).

I only "spot download" aerial shots when I need them. Preview first on my computer to see what's useful for any place I'm going. Size varies, but the question is moot because you don't carry a lot of aerial imagery routinely on your Garmin either - do you?

I live in IL. if I wanted to take a trip to CA going via AR TX, AZ,NM and then take the I-70 route through UT CO, KS MO? What would I have to do to get maps for all the areas I might end up going to. What if I did not have a laptop to switch maps?

Carry the three Topo 7 "precut" DVDs with you, and stop at library, cyber cafes, Fed-Ex kinkos and use a computer for a while? Or carry the states you need on a 16GB SDHC card (which costs about $26 now). 16GB is more than enough for all of Topo 7's street detail and 1:100K topos for lower 48. Maybe you'll need a second card if your itinerary includes Alaska <_<

But what if you didn't have a computer AT ALL? It's be a lot quieter here all around. It's a silly question to ask because it's not the case -- I'd wager you take your laptop with you on long trips and to argue otherwise is a straw man. You'd either take it with you or make sure you had everything you needed before you left.

Edited March 3, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 3, 2009

... lets get real on the USGS maps many of these maps are decades old...

Have you ever read "The Little Prince"? I recommend chapter 15 to you specifically.

You'll find errors in the USGS maps - and Garmin's commercial maps - and any open source project maps. But for topographical data, MOST of the details are not "ephemeral" -- and I say that even as I sit within sight of a few volcanoes. The one closest to me is extinct - though one never knows...

Edited March 3, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 3, 2009

Maybe you can recommend some good stocks to buy?

I'm long on Apple, how about you? Garmin's looking good also (at least the stock does).

March 3, 2009

Sounds like some of you guys have way to much time on your hands. Maybe you can recommend some good stocks to buy?

9.5k · March 3, 2009

... lets get real on the USGS maps many of these maps are decades old...
Have you ever read "The Little Prince"? I recommend chapter 15 to you specifically.

You'll find errors in the USGS maps - and Garmin's commercial maps - and any open source project maps. But for topographical data, MOST of the details are not "ephemeral" -- and I say that even as I sit within sight of a few volcanoes. The one closest to me is extinct - though one never knows...

<_<

9.5k · March 3, 2009

Well you heard the reason why the screen size stayed small when you postulated the need on the DeLorme site and it was valid to maintain a cost benefit ratio by using the same form factor as the PN-20. They didn't rule out the big screen on future releaases and frankly your call for a boycott then was a bit out of line that late in production tool up. Perceptually, you put a chip on your shoulder since then and came out with claws. Your tone has changed in this current post which makes it easier to discuss without getting on the defensive.

Myotis,

I finally found the time to look for the link on the statement I made quoted above regarding something I attributed to you. It wasn't you and I apologize for making these statements in error.

1.2k · March 3, 2009

How's this:

There is already a free 24K map for part of OR

Lots of people cannot afford a laptop and people like that are more likely to buy the less expensive PN40. So it is a reasonable problem.

It sounds to me the procudure you use to get the aerial photos takes aobut as much time as it does for me to look at them and add what I need to a map. So I really do not see much of an advantage for the aerial photos.

Lots of the water details on USGS maps is out of date and the topo data on the Garmin maps is higher resolution that what is on the USGS. But you are right nothing is perfect.

4.3k · March 3, 2009

Lots of people cannot afford a laptop and people like that are more likely to buy the less expensive PN40. So it is a reasonable problem.

Ah, but that's not you or I, is it?

These hypothetical people who cannot afford a laptop - the price difference between a 2GB SD card and a 16GB card is under $20. They got a $300+ PN-40, must have SOME computer to use it, and you suggest they're going on a multi-state road trip or flight -- and they can't afford a spare SD card for $26?

The argument is a straw man -- not a problem for most people interested in this discussion.

Edited March 4, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 3, 2009

It sounds to me the procedure you use to get the aerial photos takes about as much time as it does for me to look at them and add what I need to a map. So I really do not see much of an advantage for the aerial photos.

Yeah, it's a pick and choose thing. Large areas of aerial do take a long time to get and cut to the GPS, but the download and cut time is an unattended effort (click and go do something else while the computer does its thing). As I said I only "spot load" areas of interest and only replied on that because you asked me how much time and effort it was to get aerials.

If you don't use them much either, I would drop them from the debate - it's not an issue for either of us.

Edited March 4, 2009 by lee_rimar

4.3k · March 3, 2009

How's this (screen shot of Mt Tabor)

Looks nice at first glance, but you're missing some roads. Don't know if that's just a zoom level matter on the screen shot though. Can I get that complete map from you, or at least the Mt Tabor area, to inspect in more detail?

There is already a free 24K map for part of OR

"Part of OR" means still not done yet. Let me know when it's finished.

4.3k · March 4, 2009

I'm glad somebody got it :anicute:

2.1k · March 4, 2009

The argument is a straw man -- not a problem for most people interested in this discussion.

Huge 10-4! And that goes for 99% of this thread.

Lookee here, I just referred back to Post #1 that started this thread:

I'm kind of new to caching (200 in 3 months) and am about to puchase my first real GPS. ...

Do you think that whether or not one can get all of the USofA but Newark, New Jersey and Detroit City as 1:67K maps on a 19GB SDHC card is factored into the OP's buy this or buy that decision?

Which question had nothing to do with the Colorado whatsoever, if I can read English, that is.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Team CowboyPapa

March 4, 2009

Oh no there ace, don't feel sorry for me. Calling a spade a spade isn't attacking. It's obvious to everyone what your M.O. is. All you want to do is dance and redirect. Any point that shows an advantage to something like the PN-40 you just try and turn around the other way. There are a good four pages of examples in this thread alone. I just love that you have the gall to accuse me of not debating the facts. I almost choked when I read that little gem. You'll probably accuse me of being with the Forrest Service next!

You have implied multiple times that the Garmin comes with 1:24K topo maps...

Garmin has the best 24K topo maps-it is not even a close comparison.

Notwithstanding Garmin 24Ks are more accurate and up to date than Delorome's...

As I said, I am a map person and the 24K topo maps on the Garmin is far superior to the 24K maps on the Delorome.

One of the really nice things about Garmin is you get much better 24K topos...

You fail to mention that actual Garmin 1:24K topo maps can only be obtained at an additional cost. Free user generated topo maps are not the same thing as a commercial product. I have the gpsfiledepot 1:24K topo map for California. I'd rather use the 1:100K that I have on my 60GSx or my PN-40. The quality is better as is the information content. If all you're looking for are contours, the free 1:24K might hold an advantage bit that's it. Besides, the 1:100K maps I have on my PN-40 are routeable, something you have to pay for with Garmin and can't get from gpsfiledepot.

One can certainly create 1:24K topos for the PN-40 and PN-20 if they wanted. I imagine the reason we don't see them is because there is no need. People make them for the Garmin units to avoid paying Garmin's exorbitant map product prices. The size of the Garmin installed base is obviously a factor as well.

I've run into fanboy trolls on forums, newsgroups and BBS'es plenty of times in the past 25 years but you just about take the cake. At least you have something you can hang your hat on.

I feel sorry for you. It seems like with your inferior techonology you cannot accept the facts and attack people and make stuff up instead of addressing the facts to compensate for your inferior techonology. It seems you cannot have a debate on the facts.

All you do is name call and make stuff up-just like you have here where you claim I am making peole think the CO/OR come with the 24K maps. I notice you don't cite where I supposedly did this-obvioulsy you know it is not true. Just like many other things you keep saying.

And you go about your misleading claims again-what is your basis about the unknown quality of the free Garmin maps? And lets get real on the USGS maps many of these maps are decades old. The topograpphy and hydrology of the Garmin maps are more up to date and accurate than what is on the USGS maps. We also know many times the USGS maps are wrong. Many times I have compared my track to where the map shows the trail and it was way off or did not show the trailo at all? Many times I you found something on the map is no longer there or the location is way off.

9.5k · March 4, 2009

I'm glad somebody got it

I do sit near the shadow.

4.3k · March 4, 2009

I do sit near the shadow.

Oh. I thought you had read The Little Prince and caught all of the references: geographer, ephemeral, and volcanoes. But one never knows...

4.3k · March 4, 2009

Do you think that whether or not one can get all of the USofA but Newark, New Jersey and Detroit City as 1:67K maps on a 19GB SDHC card is factored into the OP's buy this or buy that decision?

Well, if you want to go right back to the topic of this thread (how quaint, staying on topic)...

At this point in time and at its price point, I think the PN-40 the best GPS available for a serious geocacher. It's accurate, has nationwide street and topo maps in the box and option for loading more at a very modest price. Variety of maps and imagery available is without peer for what can be downloaded from one place.

And they ALMOST have the paperless thing nailed -- certainly closer to paperless caching than you'll get on anything other than an iPhone -- but the iPhone isn't suitable for hard core geocaching for other reasons.

That's not the same thing as saying it's the best GPS for every possible use, but DeLorme is definitely playing to the Groundspeak audience.

And lest Halitosis or anyone else accuse me of being a fan boy, I could give you a long list of things that are WRONG about the PN-40 in general, and why it might not be the best choice for the OP (Original Poster or Other Purposes). I'd really like a smaller case, a bigger screen, longer battery life, lanyard connection on the bottom instead of top, GPSBabel support, and so on... And even though I can afford the unit, a big SD card and a good set of NiMH batteries -- some folks can't. Last but not least, it IS a newer piece of hardware and I think it's fair to say they still have some basic QC issues; see DeLorme's own support forums on potential issues (WAAS, power-up problems, etc). Those will probably be worked out eventually. But there's no way this thing would suit everybody.

By comparison: My iPhone is my urban navigating companion, my eTrex Legend HCx still reigns supreme on my handlebars, and for road trips I'd prefer a nuvi or even an old Street Pilot. Except that I don't own a car

Is that clear, fair, and on-topic?

Edited March 4, 2009 by lee_rimar

March 4, 2009

And how!

I'm still annoyed that my "In" and "Out" buttons are wearing at the corners of my almost new PN-40 while my two year old 60CSx looks great. I think we'd all like a bigger screen. I know I'd like backlit buttons too.

It's not perfect. No product is. It's pretty darn good however!

4.3k · March 4, 2009

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention backlit buttons. My Magellan 330 had those years ago!

60csx or pn-40

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