60csx or pn-40

[+BAPMAN CREW]

I'm kind of new to caching (200 in 3 months) and am about to puchase my first real GPS. I've been working off the satilite page of a TomTom. I've read some post in here and am not looking to stir up trouble. Just looking for a fair comparison of the 60csx and the PN-40. Money is tight and I can't afford to make a purchase that does not fit me. I'm in Michigan and most of my caching will be throughout the state.

Things I am looking at:

12 channel v 32 channel

ease of use, both the accual opperation of unit and computer interface.

I'm not that computer savy but not stupid either. just not experianced.

extra $ involved in keeping updated. Maps and upgrades.

Speed of coord lock.

Abilitiy to hold coords.

Do compasses real work.

I'm not into cross country hiking so do I realy need or want to get this technical.

I want the unit just for caching.

Readability (is that a word.LOL) of cache pages. Does all information show up and easy to read.

Does screen size make that much differance between the 2.

 

I know garmin and Pn users are loyal to thier brands but please just an honest comparision. I trying to learn.

[+dakboy]

Just looking for a fair comparison of the 60csx and the PN-40. Money is tight and I can't afford to make a purchase that does not fit me. I'm in Michigan and most of my caching will be throughout the state.

Things I am looking at:

12 channel v 32 channel

ease of use, both the accual opperation of unit and computer interface.

I'm not that computer savy but not stupid either. just not experianced.

extra $ involved in keeping updated. Maps and upgrades.

Speed of coord lock.

Abilitiy to hold coords.

Do compasses real work.

I'm not into cross country hiking so do I realy need or want to get this technical.

I want the unit just for caching.

Readability (is that a word.LOL) of cache pages. Does all information show up and easy to read.

Does screen size make that much differance between the 2.

 

I know garmin and Pn users are loyal to thier brands but please just an honest comparision. I trying to learn.

The PN-40 does pure paperless caching. Load the full cache description into the unit (ok, up to 15,000 characters - VERY few caches approach this), find the cache, mark it found, enter a note in the GPS itself, and then upload to geocaching.com when you get home. The 60CSx requires you have a PDA to do "full paperless."

 

The PN-40 comes with 1:100K topo maps of the entire continental US. 1:24K maps, as well as high-resolution aerial imagery, can be acquired with the DeLorme $30/year Map Library subscription. All you can download, $30/year. Garmin can't touch this, from what I've gathered.

 

Some say that the PN-40 and Topo7 (which is what you use to access the Map Library) have a "steep learning curve" but really, if you're coming from no GPS experience at all, it probably won't be a big deal.

 

As for screen size/readability, the best thing you can do is get to a store that carries both and see for yourself. What I consider readable may be useless to you.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

I know garmin and Pn users are loyal to thier brands but please just an honest comparision. I trying to learn.

A very perceptive comment, I perceive. I respect that to the extent that I will describe the characteritics of those that I have actually touched and held in my hands while I use them. Regarding those that I have not actually touched, I will pass on information that I trust as reliable, but will note as such. Additionally, I will not speak disparagingly of those of which I have no hands-on experience.

 

With that as background, I think the most telling recommendations come from those that have actually used both. Shortly after the PN-40s were available at retail and reports started coming in here and at the DeLorme forums, I made a little tally of the opinions of those who had used both. The results were astonishing, 15 respondents preferred the DeLorme PN-40, 2 preferred the Garmin with one fence sitter.

 

I might add to the comment of Dakboy regarding the need to use a PDA for paperless caching with the 60CSx. That is that most of the 60CSx also use third party software, namely Cachemate and, or GSAK for a more complete and convenient paperless geocaching experience. I don't use either of these for paperless geocaching.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Money is tight and I can't afford to make a purchase that does not fit me.

Oh-oh, I overlooked this first time by. The DeLorme carries a 100% money back, if not satisfied, return policy for the first 30 days when purchased from an authorized retailer.

 

The compass does work, but I don't use it. I started geocaching with the PN-20, which does not have one. I did just fine without it and now with the -40, I don't even think about having it and using it.

[+BAPMAN CREW]

Thank you, How about 12 v 32 cahannel? Does that mean your working with more satilites? And does that mean much?

[+dakboy]

The more satellites you can track, the more stable your position calculations can be (note I didn't say you'll necessarily be more accurate). There are only 24-32 GPS satellites in total (according to Wikipedia), so you won't ever use all 32 channels, and seeing more than 12 simultaneously is pretty rare if not impossible.

[+bluemustangpride]

Having held both in my hands and used them, I would say the PN-40 hands down. The 60csx is a great unit, and possibly one of the best Garmin ever made, but the new technology in the PN-40, the customer support from DeLorme, their presence on the formums to help with problems, coupled with the paperless caching capabilities, places the PN-40 at the top of the list. I bought it in a Black Friday sale to use as a backup to my Colorado, and with every update it has slowly taken over the playing time from the Colorado. I, too, would go to a store and ask to hold one of each in my hands, power it on, and even ask if the salesman will accompany you outside for a walk-around with them. Again, the 60 is the BEST of a past generation, but no way I would choose it today over some of the new units. I am sorry that I can't help with the "technology" questions. I am simply basing my opinion on performance from box to field. Good luck.

[+BAPMAN CREW]

I'm starting to think I shouldn't be comparing the two. Maybe a fair comparision would be the Pn-20 and the 60csx or a PN-40 against the Colorado/Oregon because of the paperless abilities.

[+dakboy]

I'm starting to think I shouldn't be comparing the two. Maybe a fair comparision would be the Pn-20 and the 60csx or a PN-40 against the Colorado/Oregon because of the paperless abilities.

All the paperless capabilities the PN-40 has right now, will be delivered to the PN-20 as well.

 

The Oregon uses the same GPS chipset as the PN-40.

 

The Colorado seems to be spotty as far as quality. Check the posts on these boards. Lots of complaints.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Bapman, are you going to the Perplexing event Monday in Ann Arbor?? I am and I would be more than happy to show off demonstrate my PN-40!

 

One of the best features I can see is the maps. You get all the maps you'll need for routing right in the box...BUT, you can also buy a subscription to the map library (NOAA charts, color aerial imagery, sat imagery etc) which is truly SWEET!! Imagine having someone fly overhead and take imagery for you so that when you arrive at a site, you can see what you'll be getting into before leaving the vehicle!

 

Now, I also very much enjoy the completely paperless feature of the PN-40!! Load the GPS up with caches, head out on the trails, find the caches, log finds from the cache site and then upload to the computer, no more fiddling with notes, no need to make notes even!! It's all right there and easy to keep track of!

 

The size of screen...almost the same size between the two units, so this isn't really a factor IMHO. Also, with the better maps and imagery, you'll not need to worry about screen size!!

 

The 60CSx is an awesome unit, some see it as the best there is...but the PN-40 is miles ahead of it technically and feature-wise!! The 60CSX needs maps to be bought if you want routing, paperless is possible (but not nearly as good as the PN-40), IF you can figure out GSAK and other 3rd party software. Even with that, you still can't log your finds from the cache site!! Also, the cache pages are NOT shown on the 60CSx, only snippets of info.

 

Last, price!! The price of the two are nearly the same, except you get everything you'll need right in the box with the PN-40!!

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'm starting to think I shouldn't be comparing the two. Maybe a fair comparision would be the Pn-20 and the 60csx or a PN-40 against the Colorado/Oregon because of the paperless abilities.

 

You should ask yourself, if you have to "handicap" the PN-40 in order to find a fair comparisson, what does this tell you?? Some say the CO or OR are better units, this is merely preference. With either of these Garmins, you'll still need to purchase maps for the same features the PN-40 has right in the box. The biggest bonus between the Garmins and the PN-40 is the size of screen. Sure, the CO and OR have a bigger screen, but is this truly a problem? I say the maps more than make up for screen size!

[+Johnal]

I have the PN-40 and the 60csx. Then PN-40 is the one I carry most.

The more I use it the more I like it. I think Delorme has a rebate going now.

Still the 60csx is a very good unit. Good luck with your choice.

[+BAPMAN CREW]

Try this again. I pushed wrong button first time.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts and time.

From all that I've read it sounds like mybe the 60csx is a little easier to use But the PN-40 has alot more features. More feature means more complicated. Part of the reason I am comparing the 2 units is price at the moment. Tiger is offering the PN at $339.99 - 5% ( the 5% is today only) plus a $50 rebate from Delorme. Bring it down to $273 and I can't find a 60csx for less than $299. It looks like I just missed out on a nice rebate from Garmin.

Even the Garmin users seem to complain about support. Delorme seems to use a very good marketing strategy by being in the forums and using the blogs. Does that mean they have less problems or just that they are getting to their customers. I think this might change now that GC has truely added Delorme as a working partner and Garmin doesn't have them to theirselves.

One thing I've notice it that there are no used PNs available on ebay or craigslist. That sugest that Delorme user don't like parting with them yet there are many used Colo's and Origons for sale and a few used 60csx.

If paperless caching is coming to the PN-20s then I may get what I need in that and save few $.

 

I guess I am leaning to the Delormes. At the moment anyways it looks like I can get more bang for my buck. We're going to brave the snowstorm and go see if we can put some units in our hands to campare. Any shopping hints would be appreciated.

Maybe I can make it to Ann Arbor but I thought that was Wensday night. I'll check on that.

Thank you all.

[+dadude712]

Try this again. I pushed wrong button first time.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts and time.

From all that I've read it sounds like mybe the 60csx is a little easier to use But the PN-40 has alot more features. More feature means more complicated. Part of the reason I am comparing the 2 units is price at the moment. Tiger is offering the PN at $339.99 - 5% ( the 5% is today only) plus a $50 rebate from Delorme. Bring it down to $273 and I can't find a 60csx for less than $299. It looks like I just missed out on a nice rebate from Garmin.

Even the Garmin users seem to complain about support. Delorme seems to use a very good marketing strategy by being in the forums and using the blogs. Does that mean they have less problems or just that they are getting to their customers. I think this might change now that GC has truely added Delorme as a working partner and Garmin doesn't have them to theirselves.

One thing I've notice it that there are no used PNs available on ebay or craigslist. That sugest that Delorme user don't like parting with them yet there are many used Colo's and Origons for sale and a few used 60csx.

If paperless caching is coming to the PN-20s then I may get what I need in that and save few $.

 

I guess I am leaning to the Delormes. At the moment anyways it looks like I can get more bang for my buck. We're going to brave the snowstorm and go see if we can put some units in our hands to campare. Any shopping hints would be appreciated.

Maybe I can make it to Ann Arbor but I thought that was Wensday night. I'll check on that.

Thank you all.

 

I had this question a few weeks ago, and bought both. Then I sold the 60CSx a week later.

 

Good Luck!

dc

[+TotemLake]

Try this again. I pushed wrong button first time.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts and time.

From all that I've read it sounds like mybe the 60csx is a little easier to use But the PN-40 has alot more features. More feature means more complicated. Part of the reason I am comparing the 2 units is price at the moment. Tiger is offering the PN at $339.99 - 5% ( the 5% is today only) plus a $50 rebate from Delorme. Bring it down to $273 and I can't find a 60csx for less than $299. It looks like I just missed out on a nice rebate from Garmin.

Even the Garmin users seem to complain about support. Delorme seems to use a very good marketing strategy by being in the forums and using the blogs. Does that mean they have less problems or just that they are getting to their customers. I think this might change now that GC has truely added Delorme as a working partner and Garmin doesn't have them to theirselves.

One thing I've notice it that there are no used PNs available on ebay or craigslist. That sugest that Delorme user don't like parting with them yet there are many used Colo's and Origons for sale and a few used 60csx.

If paperless caching is coming to the PN-20s then I may get what I need in that and save few $.

 

I guess I am leaning to the Delormes. At the moment anyways it looks like I can get more bang for my buck. We're going to brave the snowstorm and go see if we can put some units in our hands to campare. Any shopping hints would be appreciated.

Maybe I can make it to Ann Arbor but I thought that was Wensday night. I'll check on that.

Thank you all.

The beauty about the PN-40 and with most technology you buy now, is you can use the part you understand and grow into the features you don't.

 

The 60csx is yesterday's technology which means it is more mature in terms of firmware updates which helped to solve issues that it came out with making it a very reliable and stable GPS. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

The PN-40 is using a relatively new technology, is immature in firmeware updates and surprisingly capable already. The momentum the PN-40 developers had in fixing the WAAS issues was probably the push Garmin needed to get their firmware updates out to do the same thing. (I'm indicating collaboration so don't flame me guys.)

 

Depending on the model Garmin you buy, will too, but not with PC loadable software. That's extra. The PN-40 comes out of the box with the software to load onto your PC as well as precut maps for the PN-40 if you choose not to load the software onto the PC.

 

The question you have to ask yourself is what bells and whistles are going to be important for you versus how much money you're willing to spend. You can always disable features you don't plan on using right away, but you can't add them to a GPS that didn't have them in the first place.

 

I was recently asked if money was no object would I still buy the PN-40. My answer was without a doubt there is no question that I would.

[+Pax42]

Best shopping tip I can offer: Find a store which will let you take each unit out into direct sunlight to observe the displays.

[+myotis]

I'm starting to think I shouldn't be comparing the two. Maybe a fair comparision would be the Pn-20 and the 60csx or a PN-40 against the Colorado/Oregon because of the paperless abilities.

 

Yes I agree if you want to compare that is the way to compare. It is not a fair comparison to compare Delorome's news techonologhy to Garmin's yesterday's technology.

 

The CO/OR are far superior to the PN40. But they cost more. If you cannot afford the CO/OR, the PN40 could be a good choice-but if you want paperless the 60CSX and PDA is better than the PN40's so-called paperless caching. But if you can afford the CO/OR that is the way to go.

 

I read all the posts talking about the PN40's paperless capabilities. But nobody told you how it works. I got my CO about 1 year ago. I download my PQs, save them to my computer, open GSAK, push a macro button and in a couple of minutes I have on my CO about 2,000 active caches that I have not found with corrected coordinates (when you solve a puzzle cache you can enter the actual location in GSAK and GSAK will change the cache's location), user notes (if someone gives you a better hint you can enter it as a user note in GSAK), and accumulated logs (PQs and send to GPS only will give you the last 5 logs, GSAK will accumulate logs so you can have as many logs as you want loaded on the GPS-I cannot count the times what I used to find the cache was in a log older than the last 5). The PN40 cannot even do most of this-and to get paperless caching you have to manually enter EACH cache separately by going to the cache page and select send to GPS. To update what is on the GPS (i.e., get new caches, remove ones you have found, are disabled or achieved, and deal with caches that have thier coordinates changed) with the CO/OR pushing the macro button in GSAK takes care of it. Maybe some of the Delorome users will tell you how they deal with figuring out which caches have been disabled, archived, or had their coordinates changed after they loaded them and what they have to do to replace the caches with updated logs. Maybe someday the PN40 will have a reasonable paperless caching system, but Garmin has one now.

 

The PN40 does not support Wherigo caches since it does not have a Wherigo player. These Wherigo caches are loads of fun as the Wherigo can do lots of really neat things.

 

Another major advantage is screen size. The Deloromes and 60CSX have itty bitty screens. The CO/OR screen is about 2 times as big and it makes a huge difference. With the little screen you cannot get the big picture. When I used my 60CSX many times I would need to bring a paper topo map to get the big picture. You can see where you are at OK, but it was hard to use it to figure out where to go. With geocaching many times you just select go to nearest cache. But many times you need to see the big picture as many times the closest cache is not the one you want to go to next. Before I got my CO, unless I was caching locally, I would bring my laptop. I have never needed a paper topo map since I got my CO and the CO works better than my laptop for figuring out the big picture. With the big screen you can see twice as much and get a better feel of the land and see issues sooner. I have no problem see the screen on my CO even with sunglasses on.

 

On maps, Garmin and Delorome are about the same on road maps and 100K topos. But if you want quality maps, Garmin's 24K maps are light years better than the 24K maps from Delorome. With the Delorome, you have 24K USGS maps that are bitmap/raster maps (i.e, it is just a picture of the map). The 24K maps for Garmins are VECTOR which has momentual advantages over raster maps. Additionally, the Garmin maps are more accurate and up to date than the Delorome maps. But Delorome does aerial/sat photos better and much easier than Garmin. But I am a map person and a good quality map is almost always better than a aerial photo.

 

On ease of use, CO/OR wins hands down. Their biggest advantage for ease of use is profiles. You can set up a profile for the various ways you use your GPS (geocaching, driving, flying, hiking, etc). Once you set up a profile (where you can change almost anything), in a couple of seconds you can switch profiles and the setting are optimized for the use you are using it for. I have used many different GPSs and the CO is much easier to use than any GPS I have ever used. Besides the profiles, it has three big buttons (far apart) and the rock n roller (which I love). All the other GPSs I have had had small buttons and many times (particularly driving at night) it was hard to figure out which button you need to press. The CO is extremely easy to operate with one hand and not looking at it. For example, if the CO is giving me driving directions to the cache when I get close I switch to off road navigation. All I do is press the right button, turn the rock n roller one click and then push the select button twice. On the CO you select the various functions of the GPS by turning the rock n roller. One of the options is other and you can move any function you rarely use to other (and this can vary by profile). That makes it easy to quickly reach the functions you use most often.

[+benjamin921]

Just a quicky on the PN-40's paperless caching abilities.

 

Screen shots of a cache. Past logs and all. (Don't pay attention to the backround color on this shot - it was the converter I used).

 

Screen shot of my current cache listing.

 

It is true that, at the moment, you have to load these one at a time using the Send to GPS to get true paperless. You can use TopoUSA to load up to 1000 caches right now and the Cache Register will change all that.

 

As far as the maps go, DeLorme has the best around.

 

Screen size has been beaten to death here and the general consensus has been that the screen size has not been an issue at all for most folks. The maps make up for it IMHO.

 

Garmin does have an edge up on DeLorme for Geocaching but DeLorme is catching up and doing it quickly. I do like the idea of having different profiles to switch back and forth, would be a great feature on the 40.

Edited February 22, 2009 by benjamin921

[+Rockin Roddy]

Right. While myotis is a good and loyal Garmin customer, he lacks in the ability to be unbiased. He is also either mis-informed or misleading with some of his statements!

 

As I have said before, the buyer is the one who needs to be happy, so asking others' opinion only helps so far. A buyers' best bet IMHO is to go to amazon.com and search out all the various units you want to research and read the descriptions and reviews in there. Amazon.com has a very detailed listing for most GPS units.

 

A good indicator of a happy customer is when the product isn't showing up on ebay or other sales sites...someone pointed that out recently!

 

Hey Benjamin, could you post a screen shot of the maps, and a screenshot of the field notes option? I would but am not computer savvy (but I can figure out how to use this complicated PN-40)

[+myotis]

Yes but am I correct that when you load the caches with topoUSA you do not get paperless geocaching? Also when you use topoUSA how do you deal with getting caches that have been disabled or archived off the GPS and how do you deal with caches that have had the coordinates changed?

 

Inferior maps do not make up for a screen half the size. Garmin has the best 24K topo maps-it is not even a close comparison. Here is a screen shot of N38 58.439 W90 28.025 (red lines are trails which stand out when looking at the GPS):

 

 

So lets see some screen shots of superior Delorome maps of the spot!

 

Notwithstanding Garmin 24Ks are more accurate and up to date than Delorome's, can you really say with a straight face that a bit map is better than a vector map?

 

Raster map file size are much bigger than a vector map and vector maps draw much faster.

 

Rasters are a picture/graphic. Vector maps are objects. So in a Garmin map you can put the cursor on any feature and it will tell you what it is. For example, if you click on a stream in a Garmin, the name of the stream will be identified. In the Delorome, you have to move the map around on the small screen until you find a place where the stream is identified on the map. On a Garmin if you want to tell the difference in elevation in two places, you click on the topo line at one point and the topo line at the other point. On the Delorome, you first have to find a place on the map where you can determine the contour interval (i.e., where you can see two contour lines with the elevation is identified and then do the math to figure out the interval), then you have to go and count the number of contour lines and multiply them by the contour interval. When you can only see a very small section of the topo map, some times it is hard to tell which way is up and which way is down. And Delorome does not support shaded relief so that does not help in telling up from down. Since rasters are just a picture of the map, when you zoom in they get blurry and pixulate. Since Garmin maps are vectors (described mathematically so the GPS draws the object), you can zoom down to 20 feet and they are sharp and clear as can be. Also rasters are just a picture of the map, you cannot search for features on the map with the find command. Since Garmin's are vectors, you can use the find command to find objects on the map.

[+myotis]

After singing the praises of the PN40's so-called paperless caching without disclosing all its major deficiencies and limitations, Rockin Roddy, says, "While myotis is a good and loyal Garmin customer, he lacks in the ability to be unbiased. He is also either mis-informed or misleading with some of his statements!" But he fails to identify (much less present any evidence) of anything I have said that is not correct. By the way the fist GPS I ever owned was a Delorome and I currently own a Delorome and Garmin. I have also purchased many versions of Street Altas, TopoUSA, and Delrome's 24K topoMaps for MO.

[+Hrethgir]

Yes but am I correct that when you load the caches with topoUSA you do not get paperless geocaching?

 

No, you are not correct. It limits the description to 800 characters, and places the hint at the top, but you still get pretty much all the stuff you need, unless the hider rambled on. But the upcoming Cache Register will take care of that.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'm starting to think I shouldn't be comparing the two. Maybe a fair comparision would be the Pn-20 and the 60csx or a PN-40 against the Colorado/Oregon because of the paperless abilities.

 

Yes I agree if you want to compare that is the way to compare. It is not a fair comparison to compare Delorome's news techonologhy to Garmin's yesterday's technology.

 

The CO/OR are far superior to the PN40. But they cost more. If you cannot afford the CO/OR, the PN40 could be a good choice-but if you want paperless the 60CSX and PDA is better than the PN40's so-called paperless caching. But if you can afford the CO/OR that is the way to go.

 

I read all the posts talking about the PN40's paperless capabilities. But nobody told you how it works. I got my CO about 1 year ago. I download my PQs, save them to my computer, open GSAK, push a macro button and in a couple of minutes I have on my CO about 2,000 active caches that I have not found with corrected coordinates (when you solve a puzzle cache you can enter the actual location in GSAK and GSAK will change the cache's location), user notes (if someone gives you a better hint you can enter it as a user note in GSAK), and accumulated logs (PQs and send to GPS only will give you the last 5 logs, GSAK will accumulate logs so you can have as many logs as you want loaded on the GPS-I cannot count the times what I used to find the cache was in a log older than the last 5). The PN40 cannot even do most of this-and to get paperless caching you have to manually enter EACH cache separately by going to the cache page and select send to GPS. To update what is on the GPS (i.e., get new caches, remove ones you have found, are disabled or achieved, and deal with caches that have thier coordinates changed) with the CO/OR pushing the macro button in GSAK takes care of it. Maybe some of the Delorome users will tell you how they deal with figuring out which caches have been disabled, archived, or had their coordinates changed after they loaded them and what they have to do to replace the caches with updated logs. Maybe someday the PN40 will have a reasonable paperless caching system, but Garmin has one now.

 

First, I want everyone to understand that Myotis is a pureblood Garmin loyalist...good for him, but his posts are a bit biased, please keep this in mind. If the 60CSx were all that Garmin had in this race, he'd be telling us the same thoughts about it! Each individual buyer should research each product and weigh the needs they have. Coming in here will get you opinion, mostly biased. This is good, but no two buyers are the same, we all have different needs. Compare and buy according to your needs.

 

Second, as Myotis knows (or maybe he doesn't...therein is why I say either misleading or mis-informed), the ways we load our caches is TEMPORARY!! Myotis might forget to tell you this, but it's not like Delorme just quit on it's product. DeLorme is working on a fix that'll truly make the PN-40 THE GPS for almost any outdoor activity. And before Myotis posts something to dispair the work DeLorme is doing, did Garmin get their product right the first time?? I would also add that Myotis is wrong about the limited amount of logs, maybe Garmin has a 5 log limit per cache, but the PN-40 has as many logs as the 15,000 character limit (WOW) will allow. I just checked a few caches, one had 9 logs, another had 7 and another had 14! Also, screen shots in previous posts will give you a better idea of what the paperless feature is like!

 

The PN40 does not support Wherigo caches since it does not have a Wherigo player. These Wherigo caches are loads of fun as the Wherigo can do lots of really neat things.

 

I've found a Wherigo cache, not impressed and not caring to do them. Also, I've yet to see more than the 1 I did anywhere around me, so unless these are going to be the next big thing in caching, I will pass. Others' opinions may differ. Again, something the buyer needs to consider. If (and that's a big if) Wherigo becomes a big hit, maybe this will be something I worry about...and maybe DeLorme as well??

 

Another major advantage is screen size. The Deloromes and 60CSX have itty bitty screens. The CO/OR screen is about 2 times as big and it makes a huge difference. With the little screen you cannot get the big picture. When I used my 60CSX many times I would need to bring a paper topo map to get the big picture. You can see where you are at OK, but it was hard to use it to figure out where to go. With geocaching many times you just select go to nearest cache. But many times you need to see the big picture as many times the closest cache is not the one you want to go to next. Before I got my CO, unless I was caching locally, I would bring my laptop. I have never needed a paper topo map since I got my CO and the CO works better than my laptop for figuring out the big picture. With the big screen you can see twice as much and get a better feel of the land and see issues sooner. I have no problem see the screen on my CO even with sunglasses on.

 

On maps, Garmin and Delorome are about the same on road maps and 100K topos. But if you want quality maps, Garmin's 24K maps are light years better than the 24K maps from Delorome. With the Delorome, you have 24K USGS maps that are bitmap/raster maps (i.e, it is just a picture of the map). The 24K maps for Garmins are VECTOR which has momentual advantages over raster maps. Additionally, the Garmin maps are more accurate and up to date than the Delorome maps. But Delorome does aerial/sat photos better and much easier than Garmin. But I am a map person and a good quality map is almost always better than a aerial photo.

 

Says the guy who can't get the aerial imagery!! Don't be fooled by the map talk Myotis brings, this isn't accurate at all. The one thing told rightly here is the screen size, but the maps and imagery DeLorme offers FAR makes up for the screen size! And, the DeLorme is crystal clear as opposed to some of the Garmins, especailly in sunlight. All these are factors each individual buyer needs to consider.

 

On ease of use, CO/OR wins hands down. Their biggest advantage for ease of use is profiles. You can set up a profile for the various ways you use your GPS (geocaching, driving, flying, hiking, etc). Once you set up a profile (where you can change almost anything), in a couple of seconds you can switch profiles and the setting are optimized for the use you are using it for. I have used many different GPSs and the CO is much easier to use than any GPS I have ever used. Besides the profiles, it has three big buttons (far apart) and the rock n roller (which I love). All the other GPSs I have had had small buttons and many times (particularly driving at night) it was hard to figure out which button you need to press. The CO is extremely easy to operate with one hand and not looking at it. For example, if the CO is giving me driving directions to the cache when I get close I switch to off road navigation. All I do is press the right button, turn the rock n roller one click and then push the select button twice. On the CO you select the various functions of the GPS by turning the rock n roller. One of the options is other and you can move any function you rarely use to other (and this can vary by profile). That makes it easy to quickly reach the functions you use most often.

 

The old fall-back....it's soooo hard to use the PN-40. OK! I am a genius then, because I have it nearly mastered and am very happy with my PN-40. My post is biased toward the PN-40, but I felt someone should maybe give a more accurate report! The Garmin OR and CO are great units and do things the PN-40 won't, the PN-40 does things the Garmins don't. It's up to each individual to compare and buy according to their need! For a really good way to compare these and other units, go to amazon.com and search out each unit then read the descriptions. I've never seen a better description (including reviews and feedback) than on amazon.com! Also, if you want a true review of the PN-40, buy one! DeLorme will return your money should you decide you don't like it (30 day)!

 

 

My answers are in blue.

[+Hrethgir]

When I get home, I'll try to find some time and DL the imagery and stuff for that location, myotis, and I'll post a comparison of what the Garmin can show and what the DeLorme can show. But if I don't get it done tonight, I will do it soon, unless someone else beats me to it.

 

And why do people only talk about the screen size of the PN-xx, but never anything about the eTrex series? They are the exact same size, yet it seems that the only one ever bashed is the DeLorme. Which is crap, by the way, it's a great screen. And if my car units with touchscreens (Garmin Streetpilot C210 and Navigon 2100) are anything like the Oregon touchscreen in direct sun, I'm glad I passed, they get washed out and very dificult to read when the sun is right on them.

[+BAPMAN CREW]

Truly thank you all for your inputs. And for keeping fairly civil as we tried to find our way thru the jungle. We took many of your advice and went to A Bass Pro Shop that had just about every model. We drove thru a hellofa snow here in the Detroit area so we could go to the one store that had them all. They wouldn’t let us take them out but they did have batteries in them so we could see them in their Demo modes.

 

First off. I was not handicapping the 40. Thanks to you all I now know this was not an apples against apples comparison. This was just 2 items in the same $ bracket. Because of the current & upcoming abilities, the PN-40 and the Colo are closer in amenities.

 

Well as I went to check my email earlier today I had one from my wife that had a link to the delivery date of our NEW PN-40. I Love You Babe.

 

From this thread and the others we have read these are the things we came up with. Oh yea, we also looked thru different blogs.

People are Brand Loyal.

Getting away from paper and ink means more to us than we thought.

Delorme seems more responsive to their customers.

Though the 60 series are great units, the Colorado & Oregon users seem to have a lot of problems.

If money were no object it would have been a harder choice between a Colorado/Oregon and the PN -40.

With both the 60csx and PN-40 around $300, for Geocaching it comes up the DeLorme.

GC and Delorme are now working together just like GC and Garmin work together.

 

This is the unit we feel will fit us best.

 

Thank you all for your input.

 

Bapman and The Lady J

[+TotemLake]

I think you made an excellent choice.

 

Gotta love it when the wife pre-empts your decision process.

[+user13371]

NOTE: Someone is sure to label me as a Delorme "basher" or Garmin "fanboy" for this post. But I own models from both maufacturers -- and have others as well. I just call 'em like I see 'em...

 

...The PN-40 comes with 1:100K topo maps of the entire continental US. 1:24K maps, as well as high-resolution aerial imagery, can be acquired with the DeLorme $30/year Map Library subscription. All you can download, $30/year. Garmin can't touch this, from what I've gathered.

I've been playing with Delorme's map subscription and I have to caution that some people might find it's not the great bargain it seems.

 

Where the map subscription shines is the wide availability of topo and aerial data. If you don't mind pre-planning trips, and only downloading the maps and imagery you need for each excursion -- and you can afford ot spend a couple hours of trip planning to get each set of maps and imaery you need -- then yes, it's a great deal and Garmin can't touch it.

 

But if you're thinking you can just pay $30 for all the maps you want -- you're being optimistic.

 

It's more like an all you can eat buffet. That only serves soup. By the teaspoon.

 

I thought that it would be a great way for me to get complete USGS 1:24K topos for Washington and Oregon. The $30 is better than $87 for Garmin's Topo 24K product on microSD (http://www.amazon.com/GARMIN-010-C0948-00-...n/dp/B001AQOHOI), right?

 

But to download that much data from Delorme's subscription service requires outlining by hand 440 sections you want to download, using a somewhat tedious interface in their software. It would take around 147 hours to download 12 gigabytes of data. And then you have to select the regions AGAIN in a different grouping to copy them to the GPS. And the complete set won't fit on even a 16 gigabyte card, because map files prepped for the GPS are bigger than the raw downloaded data.

 

Over on the Delorme forums I asked how some users had managed to do this, and the answer was "obsessive compulsive disorder." I can't disagree there.

 

See also: http://forums.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?t=17548

[+BAPMAN CREW]

we had decided but I was going to wait till monday morning to make sure my ducks were in a row on the rebate. She just couldn't wait. It's all good.

PS. Love to meet other cachers no matter whats in there hand ... referring to GPS ofcourse.

[+Rockin Roddy]

NOTE: Someone is sure to label me as a Delorme "basher" or Garmin "fanboy" for this post. But I own models from both maufacturers -- and have others as well. I just call 'em like I see 'em...

 

...The PN-40 comes with 1:100K topo maps of the entire continental US. 1:24K maps, as well as high-resolution aerial imagery, can be acquired with the DeLorme $30/year Map Library subscription. All you can download, $30/year. Garmin can't touch this, from what I've gathered.

I've been playing with Delorme's map subscription and I have to caution that some people might find it's not the great bargain it seems.

 

Where the map subscription shines is the wide availability of topo and aerial data. If you don't mind pre-planning trips, and only downloading the maps and imagery you need for each excursion -- and you can afford ot spend a couple hours of trip planning to get each set of maps and imaery you need -- then yes, it's a great deal and Garmin can't touch it.

 

But if you're thinking you can just pay $30 for all the maps you want -- you're being optimistic.

 

It's more like an all you can eat buffet. That only serves soup. By the teaspoon.

 

I thought that it would be a great way for me to get complete USGS 1:24K topos for Washington and Oregon. The $30 is better than $87 for Garmin's Topo 24K product on microSD (http://www.amazon.com/GARMIN-010-C0948-00-...n/dp/B001AQOHOI), right?

 

But to download that much data from Delorme's subscription service requires outlining by hand 440 sections you want to download, using a somewhat tedious interface in their software. It would take around 147 hours to download 12 gigabytes of data. And then you have to select the regions AGAIN in a different grouping to copy them to the GPS. And the complete set won't fit on even a 16 gigabyte card, because map files prepped for the GPS are bigger than the raw downloaded data.

 

Over on the Delorme forums I asked how some users had managed to do this, and the answer was "obsessive compulsive disorder." I can't disagree there.

 

See also: http://forums.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?t=17548

 

You can save the entire USA to TOPO7 and then use it as you want, I don't see this as a problem! For example, I knew I was going to Ann Arbor tomorrow, so I loaded the area I am going to and a bit around that (in color aerial imagery). The whole thing downloaded quickly while I had lunch and then I saved it before sending it on to the GPS. Whole process was under an hour and a half!

 

Since I'm laid off, I have the ability to download as many maps as I desire, they stay mine and I can use them as I need, even over and over again! I had a huge section of my home area in aerial imagery, but wanted other maps, so I merely deleted the files from the card and started again!! If I decide I want the aerial imagery over my home area again, I can load it again (or load different areas to different cards like a card library)!!

 

I agree though, you do need time and a bit of patience in order to benefit from the maps!! The beauty is, maps can load while you sleep!!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Truly thank you all for your inputs. And for keeping fairly civil as we tried to find our way thru the jungle. We took many of your advice and went to A Bass Pro Shop that had just about every model. We drove thru a hellofa snow here in the Detroit area so we could go to the one store that had them all. They wouldn’t let us take them out but they did have batteries in them so we could see them in their Demo modes.

 

First off. I was not handicapping the 40. Thanks to you all I now know this was not an apples against apples comparison. This was just 2 items in the same $ bracket. Because of the current & upcoming abilities, the PN-40 and the Colo are closer in amenities.

 

Well as I went to check my email earlier today I had one from my wife that had a link to the delivery date of our NEW PN-40. I Love You Babe.

 

From this thread and the others we have read these are the things we came up with. Oh yea, we also looked thru different blogs.

People are Brand Loyal.

Getting away from paper and ink means more to us than we thought.

Delorme seems more responsive to their customers.

Though the 60 series are great units, the Colorado & Oregon users seem to have a lot of problems.

If money were no object it would have been a harder choice between a Colorado/Oregon and the PN -40.

With both the 60csx and PN-40 around $300, for Geocaching it comes up the DeLorme.

GC and Delorme are now working together just like GC and Garmin work together.

 

This is the unit we feel will fit us best.

 

Thank you all for your input.

 

Bapman and The Lady J

 

Congrats!! When does it arrive???

[+user13371]

You can save the entire USA to TOPO7 and then use it as you want, I don't see this as a problem!

Well, you could - but it would take 3 to 4 months of continuous downloading, 24 hours a day to get all of it of the 1:24K topos. Longer for color aerial imagery.

 

It makes only slightly more sense to spend "a couple of hours" downloading the data you'll use for a day trip, only when you need it.

 

If you really needed the data, it makes the most sense to pay DeLorme to deliver it on disc ($50 per state for 1:24K topos - don't know what they get for aerial imagery). Might take the shine off of the subscription, but it's still a good deal for some users (those without as much time on their hands as you) -- and good business sense for Delorme.

Edited February 23, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Rockin Roddy]

You can save the entire USA to TOPO7 and then use it as you want, I don't see this as a problem!

Well, you could - but it would take 3 to 4 months of continuous downloading, 24 hours a day to get all of it of the 1:24K topos. Longer for color aerial imagery.

 

It makes only slightly more sense to spend "a couple of hours" downloading the data you'll use for a day trip, only when you need it.

 

If you really needed the data, it makes the most sense to pay DeLorme to deliver it on disc ($50 per state for 1:24K topos - don't know what they get for aerial imagery). Might take the shine off of the subscription, but it's still a good deal for some users (those without as much time on their hands as you) -- and good business sense for Delorme.

 

I'll test this for you, I am in the process of loading the limit and will continue to and see where zi get in a week or so of simply doing these every night. As I remember to, of course. I am thinking it's not going to be a problem since they load at night and then you can load them to GPS as needed! Let's see how long it takes to map Michigan in color aerial imagery. Ok, just received the download back and am loading it to TOP7 now. It'll take awhile, but I'm able to do other things, or I can wait until night. No, if I didn't have cable internet... I'll be around for a bit longer, maybe I'll update the progress soon.

 

A mistake I made, I only selected 1 section to download and am now unable to select more while loading to TOPO7. A lesson learned, pick a few sections to load a night! It's been 7 minutes and 18% has loaded, not too bad. I might be able to select a few sections yet tonight!

Edited February 23, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+myotis]

You can save the entire USA to TOPO7 and then use it as you want, I don't see this as a problem!

Well, you could - but it would take 3 to 4 months of continuous downloading, 24 hours a day to get all of it of the 1:24K topos. Longer for color aerial imagery.

 

It makes only slightly more sense to spend "a couple of hours" downloading the data you'll use for a day trip, only when you need it.

 

If you really needed the data, it makes the most sense to pay DeLorme to deliver it on disc ($50 per state for 1:24K topos - don't know what they get for aerial imagery). Might take the shine off of the subscription, but it's still a good deal for some users (those without as much time on their hands as you) -- and good business sense for Delorme.

 

For comparision, I just went to http://www.gpsfiledepot.com/ download the FREE Washington 24K Topo and the FREE NW Trails, installed them and had the entire state of Washtion on my GPS within 15 minutes of going to the gpsfiledepot site (and almost all the time was waiting for the file to download and upload to the GPS. It took about a minute of mouse clicks). The entire state of Washingtom is less than 250 megs. As I said one of the many advantages of vector maps is they are much smaller. I like to have what I need on my GPS and am glad I don't have to make sure what I need is there everytime I go somewhere.

[+Rockin Roddy]

First download complete and I'm plotting more to load overnight. I would guess I could fet a big chunk of Michigan in just a few days, probably all of Michigan in less than a week!

[+myotis]

Rockin Roddy's comments are in blue

 

First, I want everyone to understand that Myotis is a pureblood Garmin loyalist...good for him, but his posts are a bit biased, please keep this in mind. If the 60CSx were all that Garmin had in this race, he'd be telling us the same thoughts about it! Each individual buyer should research each product and weigh the needs they have. Coming in here will get you opinion, mostly biased. This is good, but no two buyers are the same, we all have different needs. Compare and buy according to your needs.

 

Typical Deloromer on this forum-when the facts are not on your side, attack the truth teller by making stuff up about them. As I pointed out in a previous post, the first GPS I ever owned was a Delorome and I currently own a Delorome GPS and a Colorado. I have also owned many Delorome mapping programs and I have always been extremely happy with everything from Delorome I have owned. You can search the forums and find many examples of me bashing Garmin. For example, I was very irriated at Garmin with the problems of the CO before they were fixed with firmware fixes. But even with all the problems the CO had, it was still far superior to anything else on the market. But its problems have been fixed now. Setting the record straight is not biased, misrepresenting is.

 

Second, as Myotis knows (or maybe he doesn't...therein is why I say either misleading or mis-informed), the ways we load our caches is TEMPORARY!! Myotis might forget to tell you this, but it's not like Delorme just quit on it's product. DeLorme is working on a fix that'll truly make the PN-40 THE GPS for almost any outdoor activity.

 

See there you go making stuff up, I stated, "Maybe someday the PN40 will have a reasonable paperless caching system, but Garmin has one now."

 

On the 5 log limit, PQs and send to GPS only have 5 logs in them. GSAK accumulates them and with the CO you can have an unlimited number (no character limit). I have had over 100 logs for a cache with no problem.

 

So how do you deal with caches loaded that get disabled, archived, or their coordinates changed?

 

You are right there are not many Wherigo caches yet. I think the problem is the software to create them needs lots of work. But Wherigo has lots of potential and the 3 I have done have all be great.

 

Says the guy who can't get the aerial imagery!! Don't be fooled by the map talk Myotis brings, this isn't accurate at all. The one thing told rightly here is the screen size, but the maps and imagery DeLorme offers FAR makes up for the screen size! And, the DeLorme is crystal clear as opposed to some of the Garmins, especailly in sunlight. All these are factors each individual buyer needs to consider.

 

I can get aerial imagery for my CO. There are two programs that will georeference it. The CO also has a picture viewer so you can save a jpg from googlearth, ExpertGPS, or other sources and view it on the CO (not georeferenced). I saved some on my GPS a couple of times but never had a need for it. As I said, I am a map person and the 24K topo maps on the Garmin is far superior to the 24K maps on the Delorome. But if it was as easy on the Garmin, I would probably load some photos as I can think of some very limited circumstances where it could be useful.

 

I posted a screen shot and I am anxiously awaiting to see the screen shots of the supposedly superior

delorome maps.

 

My CO is crystal clear in direct sunlight even with sunglasses on.

 

The old fall-back....it's soooo hard to use the PN-40. OK! I am a genius then, because I have it nearly mastered and am very happy with my PN-40.

 

I did not say it was hard to use the PN40, I said the CO/OR is much easier to use. The hardware set up makes it much easier to operate particularly with one hand and not looking at it. I certainly do not miss having to spend all the time adjusting setting for different uses or accepting less than optimized configuration because it takes to long to change all the settings.

 

But I agree people need to compare the units. The PN40 is definitely cheaper (but there are lots more Garmin users and there are all kinds of free maps available for Garmin from dedicated users). It also does aerial photos better and has a better magnetic compass. But the biggest advantage for the CO is the screen size-after over a decade of suffering with small screens like the PN40s/60CSX, I would never go back to the smaller screen.

 

What happens if your harddrive dies or you get another computer? Can you backup and restore the stuff you spent months downloading? Can one user download it and share it with another user?

 

It also sounds like it would be about as easy to create a Garmin 24K topo map for an entire state tas it is to download the maps from Delorome!

[+Rockin Roddy]

Rockin Roddy's comments are in blue

 

First, I want everyone to understand that Myotis is a pureblood Garmin loyalist...good for him, but his posts are a bit biased, please keep this in mind. If the 60CSx were all that Garmin had in this race, he'd be telling us the same thoughts about it! Each individual buyer should research each product and weigh the needs they have. Coming in here will get you opinion, mostly biased. This is good, but no two buyers are the same, we all have different needs. Compare and buy according to your needs.

 

Typical Deloromer on this forum-when the facts are not on your side, attack the truth teller by making stuff up about them. As I pointed out in a previous post, the first GPS I ever owned was a Delorome and I currently own a Delorome GPS and a Colorado. I have also owned many Delorome mapping programs and I have always been extremely happy with everything from Delorome I have owned. You can search the forums and find many examples of me bashing Garmin. For example, I was very irriated at Garmin with the problems of the CO before they were fixed with firmware fixes. But even with all the problems the CO had, it was still far superior to anything else on the market. But its problems have been fixed now. Setting the record straight is not biased, misrepresenting is.

 

Second, as Myotis knows (or maybe he doesn't...therein is why I say either misleading or mis-informed), the ways we load our caches is TEMPORARY!! Myotis might forget to tell you this, but it's not like Delorme just quit on it's product. DeLorme is working on a fix that'll truly make the PN-40 THE GPS for almost any outdoor activity.

 

See there you go making stuff up, I stated, "Maybe someday the PN40 will have a reasonable paperless caching system, but Garmin has one now."

 

On the 5 log limit, PQs and send to GPS only have 5 logs in them. GSAK accumulates them and with the CO you can have an unlimited number (no character limit). I have had over 100 logs for a cache with no problem.

 

So how do you deal with caches loaded that get disabled, archived, or their coordinates changed?

 

You are right there are not many Wherigo caches yet. I think the problem is the software to create them needs lots of work. But Wherigo has lots of potential and the 3 I have done have all be great.

 

Says the guy who can't get the aerial imagery!! Don't be fooled by the map talk Myotis brings, this isn't accurate at all. The one thing told rightly here is the screen size, but the maps and imagery DeLorme offers FAR makes up for the screen size! And, the DeLorme is crystal clear as opposed to some of the Garmins, especailly in sunlight. All these are factors each individual buyer needs to consider.

 

I can get aerial imagery for my CO. There are two programs that will georeference it. The CO also has a picture viewer so you can save a jpg from googlearth, ExpertGPS, or other sources and view it on the CO (not georeferenced). I saved some on my GPS a couple of times but never had a need for it. As I said, I am a map person and the 24K topo maps on the Garmin is far superior to the 24K maps on the Delorome. But if it was as easy on the Garmin, I would probably load some photos as I can think of some very limited circumstances where it could be useful.

 

I posted a screen shot and I am anxiously awaiting to see the screen shots of the supposedly superior

delorome maps.

 

My CO is crystal clear in direct sunlight even with sunglasses on.

 

The old fall-back....it's soooo hard to use the PN-40. OK! I am a genius then, because I have it nearly mastered and am very happy with my PN-40.

 

I did not say it was hard to use the PN40, I said the CO/OR is much easier to use. The hardware set up makes it much easier to operate particularly with one hand and not looking at it. I certainly do not miss having to spend all the time adjusting setting for different uses or accepting less than optimized configuration because it takes to long to change all the settings.

 

But I agree people need to compare the units. The PN40 is definitely cheaper (but there are lots more Garmin users and there are all kinds of free maps available for Garmin from dedicated users). It also does aerial photos better and has a better magnetic compass. But the biggest advantage for the CO is the screen size-after over a decade of suffering with small screens like the PN40s/60CSX, I would never go back to the smaller screen.

 

What happens if your harddrive dies or you get another computer? Can you backup and restore the stuff you spent months downloading? Can one user download it and share it with another user?

 

It also sounds like it would be about as easy to create a Garmin 24K topo map for an entire state tas it is to download the maps from Delorome!

 

Whatever you say, my friend. I'd take a second to respond, but your statements are full of holes which have been pointed out before. And I'm sorry. You're not a loyal Garmin, you're just anti-anything you aren't currently for!! One thing's for sure, you're mis-informed and anti-PN-40. Hardly makes for a unbiased review!

Edited February 23, 2009 by Rockin Roddy

[+user13371]

...guess I could get a big chunk of Michigan in just a few days, probably all of Michigan in less than a week!

Yes, or the whole country in just a few months

 

D's data subscription is good value if you need some of the imagery D offers that you can't get on any other GPS (e.g., 1-foot resolution aerial photos of selected cities, or 1-metre aerials every where else). And if you can afford the time to plan and download what you need in advance.

 

But for the USGS 1:24K topos, the first thing I looked at -- not so much. Faster, easier to buy G's topo. Or as myotis keeps pointing out, there are numerous free/open-source products available.

 

I'm the biggest cheapskate around ("Hey Lee, why is your nose so big?" "Because air is FREE!"), but I value my spare time highly enough that downloading D's topos doesn't seem like a bargain.

[+Rockin Roddy]

...guess I could get a big chunk of Michigan in just a few days, probably all of Michigan in less than a week!

Yes, or the whole country in just a few months

 

D's data subscription is good value if you need some of the imagery D offers that you can't get on any other GPS (e.g., 1-foot resolution aerial photos of selected cities, or 1-metre aerials every where else). And if you can afford the time to plan and download what you need in advance.

 

But for the USGS 1:24K topos, the first thing I looked at -- not so much. Faster, easier to buy G's topo. Or as myotis keeps pointing out, there are numerous free/open-source products available.

 

I'm the biggest cheapskate around ("Hey Lee, why is your nose so big?" "Because air is FREE!"), but I value my spare time highly enough that downloading D's topos doesn't seem like a bargain.

 

That's cool. I'm more than happy to work a little bit to get exactly what I want! Seeing the end results and getting it how I want it...priceless! The 1:24 looked much better than Garmin's, but that's JMHO. Also, didn't someone have to do all the work so others could benefit? Where'd those free Garmin maps come from?

[+user13371]

The 1:24 looked much better than Garmin's, but that's JMHO

Which Garmin topos are you comparing?

 

...didn't someone have to do all the work so others could benefit? Where'd those free Garmin maps come from?

Yes, work from people who spend their time contributing instead of just downloading. Go read any of the project websites.

[+TotemLake]

Yes, work from people who spend their time contributing instead of just downloading. Go read any of the project websites.

Right. DeLorme IS the new kid on the block and it appears sometimes they are knocked for it when it comes to the sweat off of others backs "free" downloads for Garmin.

 

I've stated it before, but I'll post it here again. The differences are there but the gap is closing.

Edited February 23, 2009 by TotemLake

[+briansnat]

As a long time 60CSX user and recent PN40 owner here is my take.

 

For automotive navigation: Garmin wins hands down. When turns come up, Garmin's backlight comes on and a closeup view of the intersection pops up. This is a key feature for a unit with a fairly small screen and the PN40 doesn't do it.

 

If you miss a turn the Garmin starts recalculating the route immediately. The PN40 just chugs merrily along and you have to ask it to recalculate the route.

 

Garmin's icon driven menu for POIs, businesses and services is far easier to use than the PN40's somewhat clunky menu.

 

Garmin beeps twice. First as a turn approaches, then again right at the turn. the DeLorme just beeps once just before the turn.

 

For pure geocaching: DeLorme wins. The paperless feature is very useful and is supposed to get even better.

 

For maps: DeLorme wins. The maps are far more detailed than Garmins and the sat imagery is a very nice touch, though it doesn't zoom in clearly close enough to make it particularly useful. Also the topo maps are routable. With Garmin if you want topo information and routable maps you need to buy two map apps and that runs into bucks. DeLorme's maps are free with the unit.

 

Reception: Garmin wins. Testing the 60CSX vs PN50 on a hike and again sitting in my living room, the 60CSX consistently had more sats and a stronger signal.

 

Ease of use: Garmin wins. It took me a full day to figure out how get my PN40 up and running correctly with Topo 7 and when I went to the DeLorme forums "trial and error" was the bulk of the advice I received.

Garmin also allows for a number of ways to upload waypoints. You can use Mapsource, GSAK, EasyGPS or any number of similar products. With the DeLorme, you are pretty much tied to their Topo 7 app, which comes with little documentation.

 

Also under ease of use, Garmin's icon driven menu system is much easier to figure out than DeLorme's.

 

Support: Garmin has always been well known for great customer support. DeLorme has fortunately followed their model and then some, with support team members who lurk this forum and help out. When I sent my Garmin unit back they wouldn't send me a replacement until they received my unit, but I had new unit in my hands within 5 days of returning it. DeLorme put a new unit in the mail (so they said) and the only question they asked was what model and what my address was. If the unit arrives tomorrow as promised I'd have to give a slight edge to DeLorme, though both companies know the meaning of customer service.

 

Convenience: Garmin has been around a while and there are a good number of after market cases and holders. I especially like Garmin's 6oCSX clip mount that puts the unit at your side and releases it with the press of a button. Extremely convenient. Right now the only option for the DeLorme is a case. Constantly taking a unit out of it and putting it back into a case is somewhat inconvenient while geocaching. Hopefully someone will come up with a decent holder for the DeLorme.

 

Screen size: The DeLorme screen is small, really small. The 60CSX's screen isn't all that large but it's about 25 percent larger than the DeLorme's.

 

Compass: I like DeLorme's triaxial compass. With Garmin you need to hold the unit perfectly flat for it to work correctly, yet flat is not the best position for reception (this was more of an issue with the 60CS than the 60CSX). I don't see why Garmin can't use a triaxial compass after all these years.

 

Battery Life: Garmin wins this one hands down. The PN40 battery life borders on unacceptable for an outdoor appliance. On a recent hike I had to change batteries twice in the DeLorme. The same, well worn rechargables last all day in the 60CSX

 

I like the DeLorme a lot and it will only get better with time. It will probably become my primary geocaching unit once I get it back and set up. But if someone told me I could only choose one unit to use for the rest of my life it would be the 60CSX, no question.

Edited February 23, 2009 by briansnat

[+benjamin921]

 

Hey Benjamin, could you post a screen shot of the maps, and a screenshot of the field notes option? I would but am not computer savvy (but I can figure out how to use this complicated PN-40)

 

A few shots that I have laying around.

 

[+Team CowboyPapa]

With the DeLorme, you are pretty much tied to their Topo 7 app, which comes with little documentation.

 

Yes, it's not in the box. Separate download of 300 pages:

http://www.delorme.com/support/downloads/TopoUSA/Topo7.pdf

 

Just don't ask me how much I've read.

 

Ease of use: Garmin wins. It took me a full day to figure out how get my PN40 up and running correctly with Topo 7 and when I went to the DeLorme forums "trial and error" was the bulk of the advice I received.

I confess without retraction. I neither practice nor preach uniformity for all.

[+myotis]

New kid on the block???? I bought my first Delorome GPS in April 1997!

 

I think the issue is a few Delorome users (esp beta testers) on this forum tend to disparage Garmin by misrepresentation and overstate and misrepresent what the Delorome do. The absurd contention that the Delorome 24K topos are superior to the Garmin 24K topos is a great example. I hear this over and over. Other good examples is what does not get dislcosed by those praising the PN40. A good example is how what a royal pain it is to download the maps and how you have to go to the cache page to use the new geocahing features. Those who keep praising ad praising the PN40 did not disclose this. I just do not see fair and complete information coming from some of the Deloromers. You can find numerous examples of me blasting Garmin on these forums over the CO before they fixed the significant problems (or there are ways to deal with them). I have never beta tested for Garmin or tried to. My opinions are based on over a decade of using various GPSs.

 

Yes Delorome is making progress on some things like geocaching-maybe someday they will catch up with Garmin. The only current issue with Garmin's system is multicaches-but that is easily dealt with by using the profile feature. (Oh yea it would be nice to be able to save a cache as a waypoint.)

 

But Garmin's screen size is the best advantage and that cannot be fixed with firmware. The Rock N Roller and big buttons is also a major hardware advantage.

 

Yes someone has to do the work for the free Garmin maps-I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours GPSing trails, getting trail data, and making free maps. There are lots of other people that do this. That is another major advantage of Garmins. I have even made some of my trail data available to Delorome users. But I have not seen anything to demonstrate a 24K vector quality topo map could posibily be made for Delorome. It sounds like a 24K Vector quality map can be made for a Garmin in about the same amount of time it takes to download 24K for the entire state.

[+benjamin921]

Yes someone has to do the work for the free Garmin maps-I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours GPSing trails, getting trail data, and making free maps. There are lots of other people that do this.

I applaud your tireless efforts to make those available to the users. Acquiring trail data is fun

[+myotis]

When I get home, I'll try to find some time and DL the imagery and stuff for that location, myotis, and I'll post a comparison of what the Garmin can show and what the DeLorme can show. But if I don't get it done tonight, I will do it soon, unless someone else beats me to it.

 

And why do people only talk about the screen size of the PN-xx, but never anything about the eTrex series? They are the exact same size, yet it seems that the only one ever bashed is the DeLorme. Which is crap, by the way, it's a great screen. And if my car units with touchscreens (Garmin Streetpilot C210 and Navigon 2100) are anything like the Oregon touchscreen in direct sun, I'm glad I passed, they get washed out and very dificult to read when the sun is right on them.

 

I anxiously await the comparison.

 

I have the CO not the OR. The OR does have issues with screen visibility. I can see a major difference between it and the CO, that is why I have the CO. (But some people say they don't have a problem-I guess their eyes are better than mine.) The CO excels in direct sunlight. When you are driving into the sun is the only time I have issues with seeing the screen but I can hold it so I can see it better than my speedometer!

 

Yes the Etrex (and 60CSX) also have small screens, but they are not Garmin's top of the line and they are previous generation technology. The technology was not as good as it is now when the 60CSX and Etrex were developed. Garmin's do not have a 3 axis compass which I think is inexcusable, but I do not think it is as inexcuesable as Delorome's top of the line having such a small screen.

[+Hrethgir]

When I get home, I'll try to find some time and DL the imagery and stuff for that location, myotis, and I'll post a comparison of what the Garmin can show and what the DeLorme can show. But if I don't get it done tonight, I will do it soon, unless someone else beats me to it.

 

And why do people only talk about the screen size of the PN-xx, but never anything about the eTrex series? They are the exact same size, yet it seems that the only one ever bashed is the DeLorme. Which is crap, by the way, it's a great screen. And if my car units with touchscreens (Garmin Streetpilot C210 and Navigon 2100) are anything like the Oregon touchscreen in direct sun, I'm glad I passed, they get washed out and very dificult to read when the sun is right on them.

 

I anxiously await the comparison.

 

I have the CO not the OR. The OR does have issues with screen visibility. I can see a major difference between it and the CO, that is why I have the CO. (But some people say they don't have a problem-I guess their eyes are better than mine.) The CO excels in direct sunlight. When you are driving into the sun is the only time I have issues with seeing the screen but I can hold it so I can see it better than my speedometer!

 

Yes the Etrex (and 60CSX) also have small screens, but they are not Garmin's top of the line and they are previous generation technology. The technology was not as good as it is now when the 60CSX and Etrex were developed. Garmin's do not have a 3 axis compass which I think is inexcusable, but I do not think it is as inexcuesable as Delorome's top of the line having such a small screen.

 

The small screen doesn't bother me, it shows me what I need, and it's bright and clear, works just fine. And I'd rather have a smaller form factor than a big screen. And I'm not a fan of Garmins controls, the click stick on my eTrex Legend makes me cover the screen to use it, and I've not spent much time with the CO, but the rock and roller control didn't impress me, either. I like DeLormes setup with the controls under the screen where you can easily use them without blocking the screen. Anyways, here are my screen caps of the area you posted before:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do agree that the Garmin Topos are much nicer han the DeLorme topos, but I like having all the different options of what you can DL, and then layering them to more and more detail showing as you zoom farther and farther in. Hard to show it with screencaps, but I'm more than happy with my PN-40.

[+Rockin Roddy]

When I get home, I'll try to find some time and DL the imagery and stuff for that location, myotis, and I'll post a comparison of what the Garmin can show and what the DeLorme can show. But if I don't get it done tonight, I will do it soon, unless someone else beats me to it.

 

And why do people only talk about the screen size of the PN-xx, but never anything about the eTrex series? They are the exact same size, yet it seems that the only one ever bashed is the DeLorme. Which is crap, by the way, it's a great screen. And if my car units with touchscreens (Garmin Streetpilot C210 and Navigon 2100) are anything like the Oregon touchscreen in direct sun, I'm glad I passed, they get washed out and very dificult to read when the sun is right on them.

 

I anxiously await the comparison.

 

I have the CO not the OR. The OR does have issues with screen visibility. I can see a major difference between it and the CO, that is why I have the CO. (But some people say they don't have a problem-I guess their eyes are better than mine.) The CO excels in direct sunlight. When you are driving into the sun is the only time I have issues with seeing the screen but I can hold it so I can see it better than my speedometer!

 

Yes the Etrex (and 60CSX) also have small screens, but they are not Garmin's top of the line and they are previous generation technology. The technology was not as good as it is now when the 60CSX and Etrex were developed. Garmin's do not have a 3 axis compass which I think is inexcusable, but I do not think it is as inexcuesable as Delorome's top of the line having such a small screen.

 

I'm sorry, wasn't the 60CSx the top of the line for Garmin? How dare they throw out a small screen on thier unit and call it top of the line! In fact, some still call the 60CSx top of the line, even with the smaller screen and the choice of a bigger screen. Go figure!

[+briansnat]

Yes the Etrex (and 60CSX) also have small screens, but they are not Garmin's top of the line and they are previous generation technology.

 

The eTrex H line is actually newer than the 60CSX. The form factor is similar to the old eTrex units but internally they are an entirely different animal.

 

People here keep calling the 60CSX "older technology". The 60CSX uses SiRf III technology which is the still gold standard for consumer grade GPS units. Many of these newer units use chipsets that might be newer and are definitely cheaper but it doesn't necessarily make them better.

Edited February 23, 2009 by briansnat

[+myotis]

HondaH8er thanks for posting the screen shots. It was also refreshing for a Delorome user to admit, "that the Garmin Topos are much nicer han the DeLorme topos."! I understand your point, "but I like having all the different options of what you can DL, and then layering them to more and more detail showing as you zoom farther and farther in." The USGS 24K is clearly inferior to the Garmin map (that I made) and while there are multiple additional views available, none of them really provide any info that you cannot get from the USGS map. IMHO, a good quality map is a better option than multiple inferior views. The only reason I coulod think of where I would like to have aerial photography was if you needed to see where there was and was not vegetation. But I have never ran into a circumstance where I needed that info so I have never pursued the options to put aerial photography on my CO.

 

Your screen shots also demonstrate one thing that used to really irriate my about the 60CSX. The thing that used to bother me the most was screen size and the data fields were not transparent so they cut down the amount of the map displayed. I also hated how when you schrolled screen space would be taken up by the coordiantes. One of the nice things about the CO is all of the fields are transparent so you can see the map under them. When you scroll somewhere on the map, it does not show the coordiantes on the screen. If you need that you can click and it will give you the info. You should push Delorome to make these changes to help compensate for the small screen. Here are some screen shots to see what I mean. This one is the automitive navigation screen (it shows the road in perceptive like the nuvi) but it does not look as good as normal since I am sitting in my home.

 

 

This one I took yesterday when I was geocaching. This is the default geocaching screen-you have five options. This also shows off the quality of the Garmin 24K maps (I made the map):

 

 

Years ago I had a vista and it had the same conroller as the etrex. I agree I did not like it. The rock n roller is so radically different than anything out there when you are used to other techonology, it take a while to get used to. But once you get used to it, it is very easy to use. Other than a touch screen, it is the easiest system I have ever used on a GPS.

 

briansnat, yes the 60CSX has sirf techonology, but when you compare it to the CO/OR, it is yesterday's techonology. I got my CO when there were still major problems with it. Even with these majors problems I felt it was light years ahead of the 60CSX. Other than wanting exit services, after I got my CO I had absolutely no desire to use my 60CSX. I took it as a back up the first few times i went caching with the CO, but I never needed it or used it.

 

Rockin Roddy you continue to demostrate you have no credibility.