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My tunnel exploration.


Crab_Soul

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ee77144f-955c-4148-aca9-38650f069f5a.jpg

a view of the tunnel with us in it. you can see that it has dry spots. and that water is pretty clean it just looks nasty becouse its dark.

a129ca15-91ae-4945-bce0-190fabd87e11.jpg

a really cool fenced in area between two entry ways. would be a good place to put a cache since the water cant rise up to the high part of the wall unless it was the end of the world lol.

0ba98186-28d3-4df8-92a3-474a06476be9.jpg

an odd headstone we found. it looked like it was placed there on purpose. but the person would have to have been burried before tunnel was made. i think it may be about a hobo. but then again 1930s was the great depression... hmmm...

 

oh and i didnt disturb the stone or its surroundings.

 

the tunnel was completely spray and tag free.

 

we did notice alot of racoon tracks but no racoons.

also no insects or rodents. only a few spider webs.

 

no real sign of any humans down there at all but a few random bits of trash.

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A quick hint on how to survive the review process from one who has hidden many 5/5 extreme caches in weird settings, including storm drains:

  • Do not ever place an actual cache container in a storm drain pipe, and rather, emplace only signage for stages of a multi-stage cache; the signage will normally contain waypoint coordinates for the next stage and the stage signs should be printed in waterproof ink on weatherproof/waterproof vinyl adhesive labels which will be affixed to obscure spots on surfaces inside the tunnel.
  • The actual cache container should be emplaced as the final stage and located outside the tunnels.
  • I suggest strongly that you you make great effort to be brutally honest with your reviewer about the exact facts of the placements, and particularly, do not hide any possibly adverse information, and rather, highlight it, along with presenting your reasons why you feel those factors are not a problem. Once you build rapport and trust with your reviewers, your cache placements will get approved far more easily and quickly, and conversely, if you ever become known as a cache hider (and there are many who fit this description) who engages in duplicity, lies or misinformation in dealing with reviewers, your reputation will be forever stained and you will have a hard time getting even the simplest cache published.
  • be extremely clear and honest with your reviewers about the exact level and type of permission that you have obtained.
  • be ABSOLUTELY sure to assign an appropriately high Difficulty and Terrain rating on the cache listing page, and be sure that the cache page description fully reveals that stages are located in storm drains, and be sure to disclose explicitly any problems, challenges or hassles (i.e., flooding, death, disease-bearing rodents or insects, rabid bats, hostile and violent homeless people camping in the tunnels, etc.) that might be encountered in the tunnels.
  • list the cache only as a Premium member only cache; this will drastically cut down on potential visitations by the types of cachers who might compromise the cache or its setting or who might draw undue and unwanted attention to the cache.

Also, I am aware of a vast number of extreme Terrain 5 caches that have been emplaced by cachers in storm drains and that have been soundly and firmly refused publication by reviewers, almost always because of violations of the commonsense principles listed above. In fact, a vast majority of these refused-publication storm drain caches that have been brought to my attention were in major violation of a number of commonsense rules, some of which are listed above, and in many of these cases, it was almost as if an occult hand had reached down from above and somehow transformed these hiders into incompetent, bumbling, babbling and lying buffoons.

 

Hope this helps! Have fun!

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re: the headstone

 

When I first saw that, I thought it must be a pet`s grave marker. Someone`s beloved mutt Rags lived to the ripe old age of 16 before passing away, and years later the grave marker was disturbed from its resting place and ended up there.

 

Yeah that's what I thought as well. Rags sure sounds like a pet name to me. In fact I used to know a dog named Rags...

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re: the headstone

 

When I first saw that, I thought it must be a pet`s grave marker. Someone`s beloved mutt Rags lived to the ripe old age of 16 before passing away, and years later the grave marker was disturbed from its resting place and ended up there.

 

Yeah that's what I thought as well. Rags sure sounds like a pet name to me. In fact I used to know a dog named Rags...

 

check this out!

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...r&GRid=1828

very odd isnt it? look at the date of birth and death.

Edited by Crab_Soul
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I'd love to find a cache like that!

 

My favourite cache is 'Subway Cache' in Rochester, NY!

 

One of the members of our local community recently tried to pull the wool over the eyes of one of our local reviewers. One of the other reviewers immediately archived it, when he saw it (as it was basically a duplicate of a very nice cache that got archived because it was on private property)

 

Anyway, if you do place that one, like Vinny said, use common sense and you should be fine

 

I hope I get a chance to find it one day!

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ee77144f-955c-4148-aca9-38650f069f5a.jpg

I would be a bit concerned about those random legs and feet. Seems kinda creepy!

 

And Vinny's advice is really good. Just read the last paragraph with a big filter. :laughing:

 

that would be of my brothers and his friend tim. another one of his friends walter is takeing the picture and i am sitting on the other side of tim but cant be seen.

 

you can see how wet my brothers pants legs got. it was never that deep. highest was about six inches. he was useing plastic bags in his shoes. near the end it had the opposite effect by trapping the water in his shoes lol.

 

and the patched area of ceiling is not from cave ins lol. we saw many places where the storm drains connected to the streets and this seems to be one of them but sealed up.

Edited by Crab_Soul
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[*] be ABSOLUTELY sure to assign an appropriately high Difficulty and Terrain rating on the cache listing page, and be sure that the cache page description fully reveals that stages are located in storm drains, and be sure to disclose explicitly any problems, challenges or hassles (i.e., flooding, death, disease-bearing rodents or insects, rabid bats, hostile and violent homeless people camping in the tunnels, etc.) that might be encountered in the tunnels.

 

Why does this sound so familiar?

No, don't tell me. It'll come to me....

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[*] be ABSOLUTELY sure to assign an appropriately high Difficulty and Terrain rating on the cache listing page, and be sure that the cache page description fully reveals that stages are located in storm drains, and be sure to disclose explicitly any problems, challenges or hassles (i.e., flooding, death, disease-bearing rodents or insects, rabid bats, hostile and violent homeless people camping in the tunnels, etc.) that might be encountered in the tunnels.

 

Why does this sound so familiar?

No, don't tell me. It'll come to me....

 

Hungry Cave Crickets?

Hungry and Curious Cave Crickets?

Hungry and Ferocious Cave Crickets?

Curious and Angry Cave Crickets?

 

:laughing:

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one of the guys would always check the next corner to see if here was an exit and we would film him saying "there gos walter off to get eating by a squid monster"

 

i was really expecting to see a racoon after seeing so many prints.

probubly good that we didnt becosue i woulda freaked and punted it like a football

Edited by Crab_Soul
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probubly good that we didnt becosue i woulda freaked and punted it like a football

 

I'd strongly recommend the place kick for a raccoon - Picking it up is a bad idea...

 

Whatever you do, though - Don't give it a Rugby 'Up and Under' kick - Then you'll just have an angry raccoon land right back near you

 

:laughing::blink:

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ee77144f-955c-4148-aca9-38650f069f5a.jpg

I would be a bit concerned about those random legs and feet. Seems kinda creepy!

 

And Vinny's advice is really good. Just read the last paragraph with a big filter. :laughing:

 

that would be of my brothers and his friend tim. another one of his friends walter is takeing the picture and i am sitting on the other side of tim but cant be seen.

 

you can see how wet my brothers pants legs got. it was never that deep. highest was about six inches. he was useing plastic bags in his shoes. near the end it had the opposite effect by trapping the water in his shoes lol.

 

and the patched area of ceiling is not from cave ins lol. we saw many places where the storm drains connected to the streets and this seems to be one of them but sealed up.

Hopefully they won't be there once you place your cache. Now that would be creepy.

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re: the headstone

 

When I first saw that, I thought it must be a pet`s grave marker. Someone`s beloved mutt Rags lived to the ripe old age of 16 before passing away, and years later the grave marker was disturbed from its resting place and ended up there.

 

Yeah that's what I thought as well. Rags sure sounds like a pet name to me. In fact I used to know a dog named Rags...

 

check this out!

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...r&GRid=1828

very odd isnt it? look at the date of birth and death.

 

Wow! That's a cool find. I have no doubt that that is same Rags. I wonder what that stone is doing there and were it came from. That brick doesn't look very water worn so I'd guess it hasn't been there very long. Does it have some mortar on it like it was once attached to or a part of something else?

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Sounds like a great cache if you can get it approved.

 

If you dont think that headstone is going to move any further (or if you could move it slightly so that it has nowhere to go), perhaps you could use the years on that headston as a stage in a multi eg: use those years plus information gathered elsewhere to lead to a final real cache.

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re: the headstone

 

When I first saw that, I thought it must be a pet`s grave marker. Someone`s beloved mutt Rags lived to the ripe old age of 16 before passing away, and years later the grave marker was disturbed from its resting place and ended up there.

 

Yeah that's what I thought as well. Rags sure sounds like a pet name to me. In fact I used to know a dog named Rags...

 

check this out!

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...r&GRid=1828

very odd isnt it? look at the date of birth and death.

 

Wow! That's a cool find. I have no doubt that that is same Rags. I wonder what that stone is doing there and were it came from. That brick doesn't look very water worn so I'd guess it hasn't been there very long. Does it have some mortar on it like it was once attached to or a part of something else?

 

It's a different Rags, but undoubtedly inspired by the original Rags who is 3 years older.

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Looking good Crab soul!! Now, take Vinney's advice, and make sure to get permission!! I think the best way to hide a cache here would be to use copper tree tags or something similar, wrap them around any protruding bolts or whatever and then have the final a little ways off! What would really be cool is if you handled it much like a night cache (leave clues where the GPS isn't needed while in the tunnel, just using flashlight while looking for the next clue), where the use of the GPS is a must, but only where reception will be good!

 

Speaking of GPS, I have yours packaged and ready, I am awaiting my unemployment check so I can afford to ship it to you...hopefully next week, my friend!!

 

Good job and excellent posts!!

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re: the headstone

 

When I first saw that, I thought it must be a pet`s grave marker. Someone`s beloved mutt Rags lived to the ripe old age of 16 before passing away, and years later the grave marker was disturbed from its resting place and ended up there.

 

Yeah that's what I thought as well. Rags sure sounds like a pet name to me. In fact I used to know a dog named Rags...

 

check this out!

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?p...r&GRid=1828

very odd isnt it? look at the date of birth and death.

 

Wow! That's a cool find. I have no doubt that that is same Rags. I wonder what that stone is doing there and were it came from. That brick doesn't look very water worn so I'd guess it hasn't been there very long. Does it have some mortar on it like it was once attached to or a part of something else?

 

no mortar on it i think. it was placed almost in line with the drain. as if so you can read it when you walk up to it. there a quite a bit of other larges rocks surrounding it. i dont see water moving that stone...

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I bet if you look around the area you will find a pet cemetery nearby that ditch. Otherwise they may have unknowingly exhumed a pet cemetery while placing the ditch. Of course then again there are a lot of weird people in this weird world so it could have gotten there somehow else. Who knows??

 

But I agree it would make a great stage of a multi if you can somehow stabilize it from moving further. I don't think it would be disrespectful to move it a bit now since it is obviously no longer in place.

 

Oh by the way, I am sooo thinking of a Stephen King inspired multi by all this. I mean the drain looks like something from "IT" and the "Rag Man" is is several Stephen King stories including "Cell" "The Stand" and the "Dark Tower" series. Oh plus don't overlook the gratuitous "Pet Cemetery"

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I think a cache in such a location is a bad idea although with permission it likely does not violate any Geocaching guidelines.

 

By definition - that is an enclosed space and such areas can have less than pure air, sudden changes in water flows and/or the presence of other hazadrous materials washed into the system. Without adaquate protection you could be putting others in grave danger. Ok - I admit the chance is low but take an enclosed spaces safety class and you start taking such things far more seriously.

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I think a cache in such a location is a bad idea although with permission it likely does not violate any Geocaching guidelines.

 

By definition - that is an enclosed space and such areas can have less than pure air, sudden changes in water flows and/or the presence of other hazadrous materials washed into the system. Without adaquate protection you could be putting others in grave danger. Ok - I admit the chance is low but take an enclosed spaces safety class and you start taking such things far more seriously.

 

yea we made sure we got rigged up before entering. except for the boots eh lol.

 

we had plenty of lights

 

we brought glow sticks and other flashing led lights to use as beacons at places so we dont get lost.

 

well all had glow stick bracelets to identify each other in the dark by color.

 

we had back protection. i used a canvas book bag. tall as i am scraping my back against the ceiling isnt so fun.

 

we all had knives JUST IN CASE. in a hobos mind it is probably in his best interest to attack you. jail is 3 hots and a cot...

 

we kept a nostril on the air. if it got too bad we would have left. but it was pretty clean. no bad smells or anything.

 

-----

 

and about the pet cemetery the area is surrounded by houses a mall and a church. no room for a cemetery. we checked on google maps.

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I think a cache in such a location is a bad idea although with permission it likely does not violate any Geocaching guidelines.

 

By definition - that is an enclosed space and such areas can have less than pure air, sudden changes in water flows and/or the presence of other hazadrous materials washed into the system. Without adaquate protection you could be putting others in grave danger. Ok - I admit the chance is low but take an enclosed spaces safety class and you start taking such things far more seriously.

 

yea we made sure we got rigged up before entering. except for the boots eh lol.

 

we had plenty of lights

 

we brought glow sticks and other flashing led lights to use as beacons at places so we dont get lost.

 

well all had glow stick bracelets to identify each other in the dark by color.

 

we had back protection. i used a canvas book bag. tall as i am scraping my back against the ceiling isnt so fun.

 

we all had knives JUST IN CASE. in a hobos mind it is probably in his best interest to attack you. jail is 3 hots and a cot...

 

we kept a nostril on the air. if it got too bad we would have left. but it was pretty clean. no bad smells or anything.

 

-----

 

and about the pet cemetery the area is surrounded by houses a mall and a church. no room for a cemetery. we checked on google maps.

Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

 

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

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I think a cache in such a location is a bad idea although with permission it likely does not violate any Geocaching guidelines.

 

By definition - that is an enclosed space and such areas can have less than pure air, sudden changes in water flows and/or the presence of other hazadrous materials washed into the system. Without adaquate protection you could be putting others in grave danger. Ok - I admit the chance is low but take an enclosed spaces safety class and you start taking such things far more seriously.

 

yea we made sure we got rigged up before entering. except for the boots eh lol.

 

we had plenty of lights

 

we brought glow sticks and other flashing led lights to use as beacons at places so we dont get lost.

 

well all had glow stick bracelets to identify each other in the dark by color.

 

we had back protection. i used a canvas book bag. tall as i am scraping my back against the ceiling isnt so fun.

 

we all had knives JUST IN CASE. in a hobos mind it is probably in his best interest to attack you. jail is 3 hots and a cot...

 

we kept a nostril on the air. if it got too bad we would have left. but it was pretty clean. no bad smells or anything.

 

-----

 

and about the pet cemetery the area is surrounded by houses a mall and a church. no room for a cemetery. we checked on google maps.

Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

 

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

 

How is that a concern? There are plenty of caches that require climbing and boating equipment that isn't made available by the hider. If there's full disclosure, permission, and approval of the cache then it's the seeker's responsibility to bring the gear.

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I think a cache in such a location is a bad idea although with permission it likely does not violate any Geocaching guidelines.

 

By definition - that is an enclosed space and such areas can have less than pure air, sudden changes in water flows and/or the presence of other hazadrous materials washed into the system. Without adaquate protection you could be putting others in grave danger. Ok - I admit the chance is low but take an enclosed spaces safety class and you start taking such things far more seriously.

 

yea we made sure we got rigged up before entering. except for the boots eh lol.

 

we had plenty of lights

 

we brought glow sticks and other flashing led lights to use as beacons at places so we dont get lost.

 

well all had glow stick bracelets to identify each other in the dark by color.

 

we had back protection. i used a canvas book bag. tall as i am scraping my back against the ceiling isnt so fun.

 

we all had knives JUST IN CASE. in a hobos mind it is probably in his best interest to attack you. jail is 3 hots and a cot...

 

we kept a nostril on the air. if it got too bad we would have left. but it was pretty clean. no bad smells or anything.

 

-----

 

and about the pet cemetery the area is surrounded by houses a mall and a church. no room for a cemetery. we checked on google maps.

Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

 

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

 

Now StarBrand, I am sure if Vinny can put together a cache of this nature, Crab Soul can as well! I'm more than happy to lend a hand and I'm seeing that CS is willing to ask for and accept constructive advice!

 

One thing that would help in this end, listing the cache accordingly. Let everyone know of the dangers and tell them what is recommended to bring along! I would add that a way to leave marks (non permanent like chalk maybe) would probably be a good idea just in case (never hurts to be overly careful).

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Yeah that's what I thought as well. Rags sure sounds like a pet name to me. In fact I used to know a dog named Rags...

I actually knew a hobo named Rags back during the depression who passed away because of liver failure. Poor Rags never knew when to let go of the bottle, probably because of his young age. :) Edited by Vargseld? ™
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Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

Bad welding flash back.

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

IMO is it's the finders responsibility to decide what they need, just because you go after a cache unprepared does not mean you have to continue seeking it unprepared. If I put a cache on a rock face that can only legally be free soloed, and somebody decides to do aid climbing and gets fined, what happened to them is not my fault. If somebody decides to free solo it and break their legs or worse, it still isn't my fault.
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Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

Bad welding flash back.

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

IMO is it's the finders responsibility to decide what they need, just because you go after a cache unprepared does not mean you have to continue seeking it unprepared. If I put a cache on a rock face that can only legally be free soloed, and somebody decides to do aid climbing and gets fined, what happened to them is not my fault. If somebody decides to free solo it and break their legs or worse, it still isn't my fault.

I know all that - I was just giving MHO on such cache locations. Take it or leave it.

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Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

 

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

 

How is that a concern? There are plenty of caches that require climbing and boating equipment that isn't made available by the hider. If there's full disclosure, permission, and approval of the cache then it's the seeker's responsibility to bring the gear.

 

Hazardous gases in confined spaces is a BIG deal.

 

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/hsprograms/...pace_intro.html

Edited by Motorcycle_Mama
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we all had knives JUST IN CASE. in a hobos mind it is probably in his best interest to attack you. jail is 3 hots and a cot...

:)

 

would you mind explaining this?

 

just to confirm.

 

a. i wouldnt just randomly stab a hobo that attacked me. unless it is life threatening.

b. i dont just walk around with knives all the time to look cool.

c. i know not to kill the person. only disable them

d. if running is possible i would but i am 6'4" in a 5' space. not very safe to run.

e. i know if i see a homeless person to turn around and not go any further.

f. the knife has a cork skrew so i can open the hobos bottle of wine and gain passage. :D

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would you mind explaining this?

Sure, no problem. It's silly to think that "hobo"s best course of action is to attack every stranger they come into contact with. Carrying a knife for defense against hobos sounds like a good way for you, yourself, to start enjoying those 3 hots and a cot you were referring to.

 

But hey, you're gaining your footing here - don't let me rain on your parade. I'm anxious for you get your GPS and start hiding and finding caches.

 

knowschad Posted Today, 01:53 PM

 

QUOTE(Crab_Soul @ Feb 19 2009, 01:47 PM) *

 

f. the knife has a cork skrew so i can open the hobos bottle of wine and gain passage.

I believe hobos prefer screw-top bottles, but I could be wrong.

Don't you mean skrew-tops? :)

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would you mind explaining this?

Sure, no problem. It's silly to think that "hobo"s best course of action is to attack every stranger they come into contact with. Carrying a knife for defense against hobos sounds like a good way for you, yourself, to start enjoying those 3 hots and a cot you were referring to.

 

But hey, you're gaining your footing here - don't let me rain on your parade. I'm anxious for you get your GPS and start hiding and finding caches.

 

knowschad Posted Today, 01:53 PM

 

QUOTE(Crab_Soul @ Feb 19 2009, 01:47 PM) *

 

f. the knife has a cork skrew so i can open the hobos bottle of wine and gain passage.

I believe hobos prefer screw-top bottles, but I could be wrong.

Don't you mean skrew-tops? :)

 

lol hey i was just told about the hobo thing is from a co-worker who grew up in the ghetto. im not saying all hobos are that way. im just saying you never know eh.

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For what it's worth, it looks like a cool and adventuresome place to have a cache. One thing I would do is research the flash flood possibilities and patterns for this drainage system. It is dry now, but is obviously there for a reason. How fast does it fill up? is there an easy way to get out if water starts flowing? etc.

 

As has been stated, it is the responsibility of the searcher to have whatever equipment they need, but having said that, if someone gets seriously injured, or dies doing a cache that I hid, I would be devastated, not to mention possibly sued. Believe me, you can publish disclaimers until you are blue in the face, but you can still be charged and/or sued civilly! At best the disclaimers might protect you from catastrophic losses, but it is still there!

 

Actually, I seriously doubt if you will get official permission from whoever regulates that drainage system, to allow people to prowl around in it unsupervised.

That being said, this is great experience for you in planning a cache hide, even if it never goes anywhere past this forum.

Edited by BC & MsKitty
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If that fenced in area can only be reached by a tunnel than I would put a small container up on 1 of the ledges, probably over a tunnel entrance. You would be able to get a good GPSr read for the final coordinates but you would probably also have to list and entrance coordinate in the cache page as a hint. Be sure and paint the container to match the wall color so it blends in. good luck

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would you mind explaining this?

Sure, no problem. It's silly to think that "hobo"s best course of action is to attack every stranger they come into contact with. Carrying a knife for defense against hobos sounds like a good way for you, yourself, to start enjoying those 3 hots and a cot you were referring to.

 

But hey, you're gaining your footing here - don't let me rain on your parade. I'm anxious for you get your GPS and start hiding and finding caches.

 

knowschad Posted Today, 01:53 PM

 

QUOTE(Crab_Soul @ Feb 19 2009, 01:47 PM) *

 

f. the knife has a cork skrew so i can open the hobos bottle of wine and gain passage.

I believe hobos prefer screw-top bottles, but I could be wrong.

Don't you mean skrew-tops? :laughing:

 

lol hey i was just told about the hobo thing is from a co-worker who grew up in the ghetto. im not saying all hobos are that way. im just saying you never know eh.

According tho the last census you guys have a population of 200,145, how bad is your homeless problem?

I use to live a block away from Military street in Detroit and the homeless problem was a little thick, but I had more to worry from the people that had home than the ones who didn't.

If you don't want to be a victim then the first thing you have to do is not act like one. Exuding confidence will automatically reduce potential attacks.

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Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

 

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

 

How is that a concern? There are plenty of caches that require climbing and boating equipment that isn't made available by the hider. If there's full disclosure, permission, and approval of the cache then it's the seeker's responsibility to bring the gear.

 

Hazardous gases in confined spaces is a BIG deal.

 

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/hsprograms/...pace_intro.html

 

I was not addressing the issue of gases in confined spaces, just the assertion that "required gear" should for some reason be supplied to all searchers for the hypothetical cache.

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Not all foul air has an odor to it.....

 

and will all the visitors to your cache be provided with the same equipment??

 

How is that a concern? There are plenty of caches that require climbing and boating equipment that isn't made available by the hider. If there's full disclosure, permission, and approval of the cache then it's the seeker's responsibility to bring the gear.

 

Hazardous gases in confined spaces is a BIG deal.

 

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/hsprograms/...pace_intro.html

 

I was not addressing the issue of gases in confined spaces, just the assertion that "required gear" should for some reason be supplied to all searchers for the hypothetical cache.

I was responding to the part of your post that I bolded in response to the part of StarBrand's post that I also bolded.

Edited by Motorcycle_Mama
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