Jump to content

Cache Tribute's


yawppy

Recommended Posts

I am just curious as to what the caching community feels about tribute caches. For or against them. Right or Wrong. the reason Is below pretty much the whole story:

 

Recently I found the coolest cemetery cache since I started caching.

 

This was at the Rhode Island Veterans Cemetery, usually cemetery caches are ok, usually they are located on the out skirts. I am fine with them. I seen a cache on the GPS'r, did an Iphon map search, and realized it was with in the cemetery grounds.

 

To me that seemed bad and dis-respectful to our Veterans whom have fought for our country. Reading the listing, it appeared to be on a trail. So I went, and was pleasantly pleased with it, being a great memorial cemetery, with a trail system.

 

As I was leaving, down the road, was a prk of sorts across from the RI Veterans Cemetery, had a cool spot for a cache. Iphoned for close by caches, not a one with in .4 miles. cool, popped open the trunk. selected one of the many pre-mde caches, and proceeded to hide it.

 

Cool. Being a military brat, with a family full of military service, this was the best.

 

The cache listing intro went like this:

 

"Cache is located in a haunted location. CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground, a place to say Thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women."

 

It was not published. the following was posted:

 

1. Please give me a little more information on how and where the cache is placed, particularly the nature of the memorial.

 

2. We do not publish cache pages that honor or memorialize people as such things constitute a social agenda. We're not saying that any of us personally dishonor veterans or members of the armed forces, but if we allow cache pages honoring one group we would have to allow cache pages that honor all groups - and that could lead us to a place where we do not to be.

 

When you are ready to have the cache page reviewed again, please click on the enable listing link in the navigation pane or check the active box on the cache edit page.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

Groundspeak volunteer reviewer

 

I shortened the intro:

 

"CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground, a place to say Thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women."

 

Reviewer note I stated that it was in a park located outside the cemetery, and that it was not a memorial with in the cemetery, or tribute to a single person, or group.

 

Response back:

 

Yawppy, it will be necessary to remove the sentence below.

 

CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground, a place to say Thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women.

[view this log on a separate page]

I responded back, after removing the intro with:

 

Seems a bit too politically correct for my liking. How ever it is not you I am just ranting to, rather I am speaking of g.s policy that you are enforcing, it is just not right.

 

I still can not understand as to why we can not pay tribute to the service men and women whom are fighting, or have given their lives , makes no sense, esp when there are tribute caches for dead friends family, pets and just recently vampires.

 

Being a vet of the First Gulf War, and having my Grandpa serving in WWII,

Dad serving in the Vietnam War, and currently a Sister, and Brother-In-Law

serving in Iraq, and Afghanistan, as are some friends, this is a touchy subject for me.

 

I apologize, but I just have to protest this. Being politically correct is just another form of prejudice , my opinion of course, but seems correct.

 

K that is all, once again I apologize but feel the need to change my cache intro under protest is the right way to go, the fight never ends.

 

===================================================================

 

K I have stated my case, yes this is a hobby, but was there really anything wrong with this or any other tribute cache?

 

As I have stated, I have visited caches where a guy's best budy was rn over by a tractor, another was a tragic car accident, and of course several lost pets, and then there are the cemetery tributes to vampires, or famous unknown graves.

Link to comment

It all comes down to the reviewer. They are allowed quite a bit of slack depending on what they view as appropriate.

In the "beating the system" spirit, you could post it and then edit the page after it has been approved. If there is an outcry due to the nature of the cache, then it will be removed. If not, rest assured that not everyone in the geocaching world has let the disease of political correctness rule their lives...

Link to comment

...CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground...

 

Do you need to say more than this? Each of us on our own will pause and reflect according to our own custom.

When you suggest how we should react is when (as least as far as I can tell) you start moving from a cache worthy location on hallowed ground to an agenda.

 

You can add more but stick to facts, or even social customs. Just don't ask for a specific response.

 

Now a reviewer will have to agree or disagree since this is my opinion as I would apply them to my own cache were I in your shoes.

Link to comment

Well, the Cache Listing Requirements/Guidelines specifically prohibit ANY social agenda (good, bad or indifferent) from being on the cache page.

 

It's not necessarily (to my understanding) about being politically correct.

 

I wonder if you would have been okay by changing the statement to read "Coordinates above will lead you to hallowed ground. You may find many interesting things about our past that might inspire you."

 

By stating it the way you did, you are promoting a specific view point which is the whole reason behind the prohibition on social agendas.

 

Now, I'm not disagreeing with your viewpoint on the subject of honoring and respecting Veterans and Service Members. Almost everyone I know is either a current or retired member of the armed forces or has family members how are or were. But the cache page just isn't the place for it according to the listing guidelines.

 

It would be no different from allowing a cache that honored any other group of people.

Link to comment

...CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground...

 

Do you need to say more than this? Each of us on our own will pause and reflect according to our own custom.

When you suggest how we should react is when (as least as far as I can tell) you start moving from a cache worthy location on hallowed ground to an agenda.

 

You can add more but stick to facts, or even social customs. Just don't ask for a specific response.

 

Now a reviewer will have to agree or disagree since this is my opinion as I would apply them to my own cache were I in your shoes.

 

Ayep. There are plenty of memorial caches out there. Just say what it is and let people choose to reflect on their own.

Link to comment

I am just curious as to what the caching community feels about tribute caches. For or against them. Right or Wrong. the reason Is below pretty much the whole story:

 

Recently I found the coolest cemetery cache since I started caching.

 

This was at the Rhode Island Veterans Cemetery, usually cemetery caches are ok, usually they are located on the out skirts. I am fine with them. I seen a cache on the GPS'r, did an Iphon map search, and realized it was with in the cemetery grounds.

 

To me that seemed bad and dis-respectful to our Veterans whom have fought for our country. Reading the listing, it appeared to be on a trail. So I went, and was pleasantly pleased with it, being a great memorial cemetery, with a trail system.

 

As I was leaving, down the road, was a prk of sorts across from the RI Veterans Cemetery, had a cool spot for a cache. Iphoned for close by caches, not a one with in .4 miles. cool, popped open the trunk. selected one of the many pre-mde caches, and proceeded to hide it.

 

Cool. Being a military brat, with a family full of military service, this was the best.

 

The cache listing intro went like this:

 

"Cache is located in a haunted location. CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground, a place to say Thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women."

 

It was not published. the following was posted:

 

1. Please give me a little more information on how and where the cache is placed, particularly the nature of the memorial.

 

2. We do not publish cache pages that honor or memorialize people as such things constitute a social agenda. We're not saying that any of us personally dishonor veterans or members of the armed forces, but if we allow cache pages honoring one group we would have to allow cache pages that honor all groups - and that could lead us to a place where we do not to be.

 

When you are ready to have the cache page reviewed again, please click on the enable listing link in the navigation pane or check the active box on the cache edit page.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

Groundspeak volunteer reviewer

 

I shortened the intro:

 

"CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground, a place to say Thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women."

 

Reviewer note I stated that it was in a park located outside the cemetery, and that it was not a memorial with in the cemetery, or tribute to a single person, or group.

 

Response back:

 

Yawppy, it will be necessary to remove the sentence below.

 

CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground, a place to say Thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women.

[view this log on a separate page]

I responded back, after removing the intro with:

 

Seems a bit too politically correct for my liking. How ever it is not you I am just ranting to, rather I am speaking of g.s policy that you are enforcing, it is just not right.

 

I still can not understand as to why we can not pay tribute to the service men and women whom are fighting, or have given their lives , makes no sense, esp when there are tribute caches for dead friends family, pets and just recently vampires.

 

Being a vet of the First Gulf War, and having my Grandpa serving in WWII,

Dad serving in the Vietnam War, and currently a Sister, and Brother-In-Law

serving in Iraq, and Afghanistan, as are some friends, this is a touchy subject for me.

 

I apologize, but I just have to protest this. Being politically correct is just another form of prejudice , my opinion of course, but seems correct.

 

K that is all, once again I apologize but feel the need to change my cache intro under protest is the right way to go, the fight never ends.

 

===================================================================

 

K I have stated my case, yes this is a hobby, but was there really anything wrong with this or any other tribute cache?

 

As I have stated, I have visited caches where a guy's best budy was rn over by a tractor, another was a tragic car accident, and of course several lost pets, and then there are the cemetery tributes to vampires, or famous unknown graves.

 

i'm finding these days that "politically correct" is what people use as code for "all right thinking people agree with me and tough nuts to those of you who don't".

 

"politically correct" actually comes from political movements where some things were deemed by said movements as being incorrect for their politics, not "things that are offensive to some people". when i hear someone standing behind the complaint that things are too politically correct, i usually interpret it as "proudly resisting social change".

 

it is of benefit in any civil debate to treat opposing parties even-handedly. it does no good to inflame groups of people by calling names, or by refusing to address them in the way they prefer to be addressed. politics is what allows conflicting groups of people to sort out their differences without resorting to force. what is really politically correct is whatever allows the debate to go forward civilly.

 

 

apolitical memorials to individuals of personal relationship to the hider can be easily seen as being without agenda. historical memorials of general interest may also be acceptable without the stipulation that we should all be thankful or any other dictation of how we should all feel, because that's where you step over the line into promoting an agenda.

 

i believe what you are doing here is not trying to argue that what you're promoting isn't really an agenda, but rather you're trying to make a case that your agenda should be promoted in your cache listing.

 

 

just because you believe a thing fervently does not make it universally appreciated or accepted. some people, for whatever reason, do not approve of blood transfusions, racial mixing, same-sex relationships, statements of faith, gender-equality, forced drugging for mental patients, capital punishment, foreign aid, debt reduction, corporate bailouts, amnesty for draft-dodgers, drug testing for athletes, or sealed adoptions.

 

Groundspeak, very wisely, has decided to stay out of all of it.

 

agendas, no matter how much you agree with them, and no matter whether they represent a majority view, have been ruled by Groundspeak to be inappropriate according to the way they wish to do business. they have that right and i believe it is wise of them not to allow cache listings to become platforms for political or social agendas, no matter how dearly held by some of the users.

Edited by flask
Link to comment

 

2. We do not publish cache pages that honor or memorialize people as such things constitute a social agenda. We're not saying that any of us personally dishonor vhttp://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0fc1168e-586a-44cf-877b-e2265b8cbbc1eterans or members of the armed forces, but if we allow cache pages honoring one group we would have to allow cache pages that honor all groups - and that could lead us to a place where we do not to be.

 

Well, personally, I think that's a bit much. How exactly does honoring our veterans constitute a social agenda? It may be a bit of a cliche to say so but the fact is that it's partly due to the sacrifice and service of our veterans that we have the freedom to engage in things like geocaching. And I didn't see a good response from the reviewer about the countless other caches that have honored X,Y, and Z person. Oh, and if "we do not publish cache pages that honor or memorialize people", what say you about this cache?

 

To Honor Our Veterans <_<

Link to comment

It all comes down to the reviewer. They are allowed quite a bit of slack depending on what they view as appropriate.

In the "beating the system" spirit, you could post it and then edit the page after it has been approved. If there is an outcry due to the nature of the cache, then it will be removed. If not, rest assured that not everyone in the geocaching world has let the disease of political correctness rule their lives...

 

This is the best way to get all of your future caches delayed due to careful scrutinization for any perceived agenda.

 

Would the folks you are attempting to honor have pulled a stunt like that? I don't think so either...

Link to comment

 

And I didn't see a good response from the reviewer about the countless other caches that have honored X,Y, and Z person. Oh, and if "we do not publish cache pages that honor or memorialize people", what say you about this cache?

 

To Honor Our Veterans <_<

A lot of good points. I was just trying to be respectful of the area In which I placed a cache.

Currently the cache in question is still pending review after the deletion of original intro.

 

Love the cache listing, (quoted) what is the difference between thankful, and honor our veterans. I understand GS has policies as any other company, and it falls on the reviewers.

 

I have no issue with that, but I have an issue when it is not an evenly applied policy. I do know that many a cacher will pay their respect in their own way, this is a free country, because of them defending our country.

 

But when I read a cache listing honoring a dead Farmer buddy, whom got ran over by a tractor, or the cache listing that is honoring a casino patron, whom wandered of into the path of a car, and as brave, cute and adorable as our pets are,how many tribute or social agendas do they pose.

 

In my opinion, just by me placing a cache, is implementing a social agenda, I am enticing someone to a location, whether it is a monument, scenic view, or what ever, It is still stating something, I am still implementing my point of view upon some one, yes there is a choice, to go or not, all the same.

 

Tragic or triumphant as they may be, what is the difference why can they honor them, and I can not be thankful for our service members.

 

One policy.. should be for all cache listings.

Link to comment

How exactly does honoring our veterans constitute a social agenda?

 

If you can't figure that out then you will probably run afoul of the "agenda guideline" yourself. <_<

 

There are many people who have no intention of honouring anyone when they go out geocaching, they go out to have fun, that is the extent of the adventure they intend to have.

Link to comment

 

2. We do not publish cache pages that honor or memorialize people as such things constitute a social agenda. We're not saying that any of us personally dishonor veterans or members of the armed forces, but if we allow cache pages honoring one group we would have to allow cache pages that honor all groups - and that could lead us to a place where we do not to be.

 

Well, personally, I think that's a bit much. How exactly does honoring our veterans constitute a social agenda? It may be a bit of a cliche to say so but the fact is that it's partly due to the sacrifice and service of our veterans that we have the freedom to engage in things like geocaching. And I didn't see a good response from the reviewer about the countless other caches that have honored X,Y, and Z person. Oh, and if "we do not publish cache pages that honor or memorialize people", what say you about this cache?

 

To Honor Our Veterans <_<

Pretty good example of what can be published. Other than the title and the suggestion to visit the nearby veterans memorial, this cache page avoids any agenda. In fact the title may simple be a description that the cache is hidden near a place that was built "to honor our veterans". I suppose there is an agenda of visiting the veterans memorial. But there is no statement promoting "Support our veterans" or an indication that the cache itself is placed for the purpose of honoring veterans. One can on the cache page give some information about the place where the cache is hidden. If this is a memorial or a veterans cemetery by all means mention it on the cache page. It seems also OK to ask that visitors show respect and decorum when visiting the place and perhaps even to spend time to read the inscriptions. There is not a need to cover the cache page with slogans which as much a you may feel are an agenda that everyone ought to agree with are nevertheless an agenda. It is probably difficult for many of the reviewers to have to ask for changes on the cache page when someone takes a cache at a veterans memorial or VFW post and makes statements that are clearly stating an agenda. They have been asked to do this by Groundspeak who fear a slippery slope that if you allowed a popular agenda like supporting the troops you would have other agendas that demand equal treatment. Rather than have each reviewer decide what agendas are permitted and which are not, they simply ask for no agendas. The reviewers still have some leeway as this example shows. You can ask people to take moment to visit the memorial or to read an inscription and chances are your cache will still be approved.

Link to comment

How exactly does honoring our veterans constitute a social agenda?

 

If you can't figure that out then you will probably run afoul of the "agenda guideline" yourself. <_<

 

There are many people who have no intention of honouring anyone when they go out geocaching, they go out to have fun, that is the extent of the adventure they intend to have.

Actually, I AM one of those people who have no intention of honouring anyone (except myself!) when I go out geocaching but if I encounter a cache that just so happens to "honor" some person or group (here's another one for good measure - Just Another Day ...), I don't get all hot and bothered about it. There are more important things in this world for me to worry about. But, having said that, I can see how there could be a potential for someone to abuse the honor thing so I'll at least concede that point. :(

Link to comment

Do a search for "troops," "veterans," or "freedom" and you'll find dozens of caches that have stronger wording than the OP's.

 

Operation Iraqi Freedom II

 

This is another cache dedicated to the Iraqi people who are currently being freed from the life-sapping clutches of the evil despot, Saddam Hussein. As this cache is placed, an international coalition is fighting to help the Iraqi

people enjoy freedom similar to that we take for granted in the United States, Great Britain, and Australia. This cache looks forward to the near future and the establishment of an Iraqi nation that allows its people to

decide for themselves, the course of their lives, without the threat of execution for disagreeing with the government.

 

This coalition consisted of brave men and women from several countries, the lion's share from the U.S. We will never forget those who fought and were either killed, wounded or fought and returned to our grateful nation. This generation of young people will return to our country "enlightened" by the truth. They will know the meaning of atrocities, and enablers from other countries and some media outlets. We are eternally grateful.

 

UPDATE: 12/13/03 U.S. ARMED FORCES CAPTURE SADDAM HUSSEIN ALIVE NEAR HIS HOMETOWN OF TIKRIT. IT IS EXPECTED THAT HE WILL TRIED FOR WAR CRIMES IN A TRIAL BY IRAQIS.

THIS "CACHE" HAS BEEN PLACED TO HONOR THOSE SOLDIERS WHO SERVE, OR HAVE SERVED IN THE ARMED FORCES TO PROTECT OUR "AMERICAN FREEDOM". THE LOCATION WILL BE A VISUAL REMINDER OF THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE OF THOSE HAVE GIVEN THEIR ALL. NOT ONLY FOR OUR FREEDOM, BUT THE FREEDOM OF THOSE IN OTHER COUNTRIES. PLEASE TAKE TIME TO LOOK AROUND AND TRY TO COMPREHEND THE ULTIMATE PRICE OF OUR "AMERICAN FREEDOM".....THE "CACHE" CONTAINER; 12" X 2 1/2" TUBE. (PAINTED O.D. GREEN) CONTENTS; MINI FLAGS,AND OTHER PATRIOTIC ITEMS FOR YOU TO TAKE, AND DISPLAY W/ PRIDE TO SHOW OUR TROOPS THEY ARE NOT FORGOTTEN, AND THAT WE SUPPORT THEM IN ALL THEIR EFFORTS.
Freedom is not free. As you walk to search for this cache take a few minutes to view all the memorials around.

 

Your freedom was paid for by the blood, sweat and tears of our servicemen and women. Some of those around here paid for that freedom with their lives and some paid for it with time served. No matter where our heros served, whether is was peacetime or wartime, THEY paid for your freedom. So if you are reading this thank a teacher. If you are reading this in English thank a veteran. You are searching for a bison tube.

Favorite quotes:

 

If you do not stand behind our Canadian Forces, feel free to stand in front of them. (unknown)

 

If you can read this thank a teacher, if it is in English or French thank a soldier. (unknown)

This cache is meant to truly remind us of the commitment our troops show to our country, our freedoms, and our rights.

 

This cache is an ammo box. Support Our Troops is considered a BRANCHED cache, meaning that it contains 5 smaller caches inside of it (yep, you guessed it - one for each branch of the armed forces: Army, Navy, Coast Guard, Air Force, and Marines).

 

The FTF gets to keep a handheld American Flag that is meant to represent the freedoms that are withheld from people all around the world.

This cache is in honor of all members of the Armed Forces serving the USA throughout the world, and all those who served in the past- OF COURSE!

 

On a side note, you can help support our deployed and stateside geocaching Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines, go to www.militarycache.org and check out the Military Association of GeoCachers! (THANKS to Sharpee for this side note )

I placed this July 4th, 2007 while I was out doing maintainence on 3 caches. I stopped at he Civil War monument in the middle of the cemetery and renewed my pledge to the flag nearby. I took a few moments to remember and honor those who fought in that war to preserve our great union. You will find many veterans of that war buried in the cemetery.
Operation: Enduring Freedom

 

I put this cache together when the current unpleasantness first started ("America Strikes Back") but decided against placing it at that time. Now that we are in the middle of what seems a long campaign against terrorism on multiple fronts, I think its time has come.

 

This military ammunition container has die-cast military vehicles of all sorts, and some plastic (toy) items a solider might carry. If you like, bring in similar items…or small flags…to honor those young men and women who serve our interests in far-flung areas of the world.

We thank God for each of these great men who gave so much FOR THE CAUSE OF FREEDOM.

 

I personally feel that caches with messages of support for the military do show a political agenda and thus are not appropriate unless worded very carefully, but it's clear that this is not consistently enforced among the reviewers.

Link to comment

My intent is not to hijack this thread, but on the subject of agendas, would it be wrong to remove a religious object from a cache if I discover one? For example, I have spotted several pamphlets and wooden nickles which speak of christian beliefs. Isn't that an agenda? I understand that Groundspeak cannot control what people put into caches, but shouldn't this be against the rules as well?

 

I am not trying to troll. This is a serious question.

 

Thanks!

Link to comment

As Kit Fox noted, those caches are likely Grandfathered. From the guidelines:

First and foremost please be advised there is no precedent for placing caches. This means that the past listing of a similar cache in and of itself is not a valid justification for the listing of a new cache. If a cache has been published and violates any guidelines listed below, you are encouraged to report it. However, if the cache was placed prior to the date when a guideline was issued or updated the cache is likely to be "grandfathered" and allowed to stand as is.

This doesn't mean you can't pay tribute to the vets, but you do need to make it as 'un-agenda-like' as possible. If you simply explain that there's a memorial here (or near), and allow the cacher to pay their own tribute.

Link to comment

My intent is not to hijack this thread, but on the subject of agendas, would it be wrong to remove a religious object from a cache if I discover one? For example, I have spotted several pamphlets and wooden nickles which speak of christian beliefs. Isn't that an agenda? I understand that Groundspeak cannot control what people put into caches, but shouldn't this be against the rules as well?

 

I am not trying to troll. This is a serious question.

 

Thanks!

 

That topic starts a hot debate just as much as this one does. Just do a search on pamphlets or religious and you'll get plenty to read. <_<

Link to comment

Warning, thread hijack

 

would it be wrong to remove a religious object from a cache if I discover one? For example, I have spotted several pamphlets and wooden nickles which speak of christian beliefs. Isn't that an agenda?

 

Yes, it would be wrong, unless you traded for them. They're left as trade goods. They have as much or more value as trade goods to many people than the average bit of plastic toy. Take them in trade or leave them alone. The intent of the agenda guideline is not to protect you from the existence of religion in the world.

 

flask, outstanding post . Thank you.

Link to comment
My intent is not to hijack this thread, but on the subject of agendas, would it be wrong to remove a religious object from a cache if I discover one? For example, I have spotted several pamphlets and wooden nickles which speak of christian beliefs. Isn't that an agenda? I understand that Groundspeak cannot control what people put into caches, but shouldn't this be against the rules as well?

 

I am not trying to troll. This is a serious question.

 

Thanks!

Trade items CAN have an agenda.

Travel Bugs CAN have an agenda.

Cache pages cannot.

 

If you see a trade item with an agenda, like a religious object, consider it like you would any other trade object and trade evenly or up.

 

If you see trash in a cache, like a candy wrapper or maybe an old moldy print out of the cache page, consider it like you would any other piece of trash in the woods and CITO it.

Link to comment
How exactly does honoring our veterans constitute a social agenda?
If you can't figure that out then you will probably run afoul of the "agenda guideline" yourself. <_<

 

There are many people who have no intention of honouring anyone when they go out geocaching, they go out to have fun, that is the extent of the adventure they intend to have.

Actually, I AM one of those people who have no intention of honouring anyone (except myself!) when I go out geocaching but if I encounter a cache that just so happens to "honor" some person or group (here's another one for good measure - Just Another Day ...), I don't get all hot and bothered about it. There are more important things in this world for me to worry about. But, having said that, I can see how there could be a potential for someone to abuse the honor thing so I'll at least concede that point. :(
It's not just abuse of the "honor thing" that they're trying to avoid. It's the agendas that are okay to some and not okay to others.

 

Try and think about what WOULD get you hot and bothered to see as a cache agenda. If you hold deeply Christian beliefs and you saw a cache with a Satanic theme suggesting that finders should worship Satan, would you wish it hadn't gotten published? Or since you seem to be very patriotic, would you object to a cache with a Muslim agenda that praises the Islamic Terrorists and their activities against the United States?

 

These are extreme examples that I would think none of the reviewers would want to publish. To avoid giving them the tough job of deciding which agendas might be okay (Caches urging you to donate to the Red Cross) and those that might not be okay (Caches urging you to donate to UNICEF), they've completely eliminated all agendas.

 

You might not think anyone would object to UNICEF donations but those of us that are totally against the United Nations and the corrupt things they do would never donate and wouldn't appreciate this game I love sending them money. See, so it's the agendas that have potential to be hot buttons that would be the biggest issues, not the agendas that are obvious abuses of the "honor thing".

Link to comment

I find this very odd, especially here in the Metro NY area where there are plenty of caches honoring US Armed Forces, Police, Fire and civilians killed in the 9/11 attacks at the WTC.

 

I personally don't feel that what you have described is a social agenda, perhaps there is something deeper within the reviewer that you don't know about. Maybe this person had someone close to them that was killed in the war and is now a deep rooted pacifist or they are just being too meticulous. Who knows?

Whatever the case maybe, its seems harsh but if you really want a cache there, leave it as "hallowed ground" and tell the reader to let them express what their thoughts are in their logs.

You may get some really good reading from that.

We want to know what the end result of this is, so please post it.

Good luck!

Link to comment

perhaps there is something deeper within the reviewer that you don't know about.

There is nothing deeper within the reviewer (AFIK). The reviewer is just doing what Groundspeak has asked them to. The guidelines for listing a cache state

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.
Rather than selecting which agendas are permitted, Groundspeak has asked reviewers not to list any cache with any agenda. This does not mean that you cannot place a cache by a war memorial, a police/firemen memorial, or a 9/11 memorial. You can say that the caches is near the memorial. You probably can ask people to visit the memorial. You can't use the cache page to promote an agenda. Support the troops is an agenda. Support the police and firemen is an agenda. Fight terrorism is an agenda. We may all agree with with these agendas but that doesn't stop them from being agendas. Groundspeak has decided "Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda". Place your cache near the memorial. Let the memorial inspire the visitor. Your cache page doesn't have to do this.
Link to comment

It should be noted that the guidelines do allow for caches that don't exactly fit within the stated guidelines (such as those with an agenda). The key is that you must have your idea approved by TPTB prior to submitting the cache page for review. Also, be prepared for a 'no'.

 

Note: Exceptions to the listing guidelines may occasionally be made depending on the novel nature and merits of a cache. If you have a cache idea you believe is novel, contact Groundspeak before placing and reporting it on the Geocaching.com web site.
Link to comment
In the "beating the system" spirit, you could post it and then edit the page after it has been approved. If there is an outcry due to the nature of the cache, then it will be removed...
Bad idea. <_< Talk a way to destroy trust between yourself and your reviewer! :(

 

If you do this, and your reviewer finds out about it, you'll be on their "naughty list" for a while.

Link to comment

perhaps there is something deeper within the reviewer that you don't know about.

There is nothing deeper within the reviewer (AFIK). The reviewer is just doing what Groundspeak has asked them to. The guidelines for listing a cache state

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.
Rather than selecting which agendas are permitted, Groundspeak has asked reviewers not to list any cache with any agenda. This does not mean that you cannot place a cache by a war memorial, a police/firemen memorial, or a 9/11 memorial. You can say that the caches is near the memorial. You probably can ask people to visit the memorial. You can't use the cache page to promote an agenda. Support the troops is an agenda. Support the police and firemen is an agenda. Fight terrorism is an agenda. We may all agree with with these agendas but that doesn't stop them from being agendas. Groundspeak has decided "Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda". Place your cache near the memorial. Let the memorial inspire the visitor. Your cache page doesn't have to do this.

 

This covers the discussion point very well...

 

Remember, the most basic definition of Agenda: an underlying personal viewpoint or bias

 

Whether one agrees with it or not...saying "a place to say Thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women" is stating an agenda. As toz stated, the reviewer is just doing his/her job...they are put in a very tough position when caches are placed, especially for well intentioned reasons...but they are doing their best to follow the Guidelines as stated by Groundspeak...

 

Furthermore, I would also state do not do as someone mentioned early on and edit the page after being published to include your original description...very bad idea...

Link to comment
As toz stated, the reviewer is just doing his/her job...they are put in a very tough position when caches are placed, especially for well intentioned reasons...but they are doing their best to follow the Guidelines as stated by Groundspeak...

 

And I know that reviewers sometimes have to turn down agendas that are very dear to their hearts. I can't think of a single US reviewer who would be against supporting the troops. Heck, some of them are vets themselves. It's difficult for them, but it's their job.

Link to comment

I think Renegade Knight gave great advice. Just say "CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground" and leave at that. That leaves out the agenda and when people get there they can choose to say thank-you to our past, present and future Veterans, and Service men and women, or not.

While I generally don't see anything wrong with the original line - I would have to agree that this suggestion should take care of any issues.

 

Remember, the reviewers are just trying to follow a set of guidelines passed to them and I also have to admit that HQ may actually be right on this one and are trying to protect us from something.

Link to comment

Our Tribute is a cache we placed to honor the Groundspeak front line troops who keep this game alive. Hopefully, it won't be seen as having enough of an agenda as to rate being shut down from on high. <_<

 

On a more serious note: This is supposed to be a fun activity for all. I see little difference between a cache placed by a US troops supporter at an Iraqi War memorial honoring the fallen US soldiers, and a cache placed by a war protester at the same memorial discrediting those soldiers for so called war crimes. Both carry agendas that have little or no place in this activity. As a US military veteran, if I hunt a cache near such a memorial, I will offer my personal respects without any nudging from a cache page.

Link to comment

Try and think about what WOULD get you hot and bothered to see as a cache agenda. If you hold deeply Christian beliefs and you saw a cache with a Satanic theme suggesting that finders should worship Satan, would you wish it hadn't gotten published? Or since you seem to be very patriotic, would you object to a cache with a Muslim agenda that praises the Islamic Terrorists and their activities against the United States?

Actually, I did (hence the reason for my concession and my statement pertaining to potential abuse of the "honor thing") but, for some reason, my thoughts turned more to neo-Nazis and the KKK. It's also interesting that I came across to you as being very patriotic since I am not yet a citizen of this country. My kids will be so proud of me! :laughing:

Link to comment

...CORDS above will lead you to hallowed ground...

 

Do you need to say more than this? Each of us on our own will pause and reflect according to our own custom.

When you suggest how we should react is when (as least as far as I can tell) you start moving from a cache worthy location on hallowed ground to an agenda.

 

Well said RK!
Link to comment

 

These are extreme examples that I would think none of the reviewers would want to publish. To avoid giving them the tough job of deciding which agendas might be okay (Caches urging you to donate to the Red Cross) and those that might not be okay (Caches urging you to donate to UNICEF), they've completely eliminated all agendas.

 

You might not think anyone would object to UNICEF donations but those of us that are totally against the United Nations and the corrupt things they do would never donate and wouldn't appreciate this game I love sending them money. See, so it's the agendas that have potential to be hot buttons that would be the biggest issues, not the agendas that are obvious abuses of the "honor thing".

 

Funnily enough, your example proves even more the point that you can never guess what may be "okay" and "not okay". I would be just as bothered by a cache urging me to donate to the Red Cross. I have problems with them. :laughing::laughing:

 

I'm glad that Groundspeak draws the line early, to avoid conflict over beliefs.

 

On another note, caches that honor an individual might be fine, depending on what it is about. If you are honoring someone who got run over by a tractor at the cache spot like the earlier example, that might be alright. Honoring someone who died from breast cancer and then going on and on about breast cancer might not be.

Edited by Ambrosia
Link to comment
Try and think about what WOULD get you hot and bothered to see as a cache agenda. If you hold deeply Christian beliefs and you saw a cache with a Satanic theme suggesting that finders should worship Satan, would you wish it hadn't gotten published? Or since you seem to be very patriotic, would you object to a cache with a Muslim agenda that praises the Islamic Terrorists and their activities against the United States?
Actually, I did (hence the reason for my concession and my statement pertaining to potential abuse of the "honor thing") but, for some reason, my thoughts turned more to neo-Nazis and the KKK.
I think you also missed the part where I explained that it wasn't the abuse of the "honor thing" that would be the main problem. That was in the part of my post that you cut out.

 

It's also interesting that I came across to you as being very patriotic since I am not yet a citizen of this country. My kids will be so proud of me! :laughing:
Wanting to honor veterans is very patriotic, no matter which country you're a citizen of. :laughing:
Link to comment
Funnily enough, your example proves even more the point that you can never guess what may be "okay" and "not okay". I would be just as bothered by a cache urging me to donate to the Red Cross. I have problems with them. :laughing::laughing:

Too true. I actually went back and changed the post to read "might be okay" instead of "okay" right before posting it for that very reason. :laughing:

 

It just goes to show, someone could object to almost any agenda, so it's best to leave them completely out of the game. I'm glad TPTB made the decision to do that.

Edited by Mushtang
Link to comment
Funnily enough, your example proves even more the point that you can never guess what may be "okay" and "not okay". I would be just as bothered by a cache urging me to donate to the Red Cross. I have problems with them. :laughing::laughing:

Too true. I actually went back and changed the post to read "might be okay" instead of "okay" right before posting it for that very reason. :laughing:

 

It just goes to show, someone could object to almost any agenda, so it's best to leave them completely out of the game. I'm glad TPTB made the decision to do that.

Yes, but what about those dad-burned "cemetery tributes to vampires" and such? I smell a hidden agenda there! :blink:

Link to comment
Funnily enough, your example proves even more the point that you can never guess what may be "okay" and "not okay". I would be just as bothered by a cache urging me to donate to the Red Cross. I have problems with them. :laughing::laughing:

Too true. I actually went back and changed the post to read "might be okay" instead of "okay" right before posting it for that very reason. :laughing:

 

It just goes to show, someone could object to almost any agenda, so it's best to leave them completely out of the game. I'm glad TPTB made the decision to do that.

I agree that the presence of any agenda in cache descriptions/intent has no place in geocaching, and I too am happy that the admins of Groundspeak have made the decision to forbid such caches.

 

What does amaze me a bit is the persistence of this topic, that is, the continued and never-ending appearance of new threads by folks who want to see a cache pushing their own particular favorite agenda published, and moaning about "conspiracy" and "politically correct rules" when they do not get their way. In fact, the continual and unstoppable appearance of more and more threads protesting the anti-agenda guideline over the past couple of years on this forum seems a bit suspicious, or even demonic, to me -- it is almost as if an occult hand had reached down from above and repeatedly introduced each of these increasingly-irritating threads one by one. I suggest nothing less than an occult conspiracy to undermine our sport and ultimately to forge and force the downfall of every democracy in the world.

 

.

Link to comment

To play devils advocate here, what about the new trend of honoring cachers milestone's by placing cache's in their name?

Wouldn't that fall into a personal agenda? As it is honoring a friend and fellow cacher in their accomplishment. Now if there is a rival cacher it can be construed as a bias.

 

So where would the line be drawn?

Link to comment
To play devils advocate here, what about the new trend of honoring cachers milestone's by placing cache's in their name?

Wouldn't that fall into a personal agenda? As it is honoring a friend and fellow cacher in their accomplishment. Now if there is a rival cacher it can be construed as a bias.

 

So where would the line be drawn?

I'm not the first one to say this but every cache has an agenda. It's just that for most, the agenda is about bringing someone to a spot to find a geocache. Therefore, I'd say the line is drawn when the agenda isn't geocaching related.

 

A cache congratulating a cacher on their caching milestone has a geocaching agenda.

 

My interpretation, anyways... :laughing:

Link to comment
In fact, the continual and unstoppable appearance of more and more threads protesting the anti-agenda guideline over the past couple of years on this forum seems a bit suspicious, or even demonic, to me -- it is almost as if an occult hand had reached down from above and repeatedly introduced each of these increasingly-irritating threads one by one. I suggest nothing less than an occult conspiracy to undermine our sport and ultimately to forge and force the downfall of every democracy in the world.

 

We do see these threads pop up frequently and I'm willing to bet only a small percentage of people who have their caches turned down for this reason actually come here to complain. I think that shows the wisdom of the no agenda rule, because without it, soon every third cache would be promoting awareness of this, or shilling for that.

Link to comment

Wanting to honor veterans is very patriotic, no matter which country you're a citizen of. :laughing:

 

Until it's viewed from the point of view of a survivor of the other side. As Brother Neil put it:

 

Better the pride that resides

In a citizen of the world

Than the pride that divides

When a colourful rag is unfurled

Edited by Castle Mischief
Link to comment
Wanting to honor veterans is very patriotic, no matter which country you're a citizen of. :laughing:
Until it's viewed from the point of view of a survivor of the other side. As Brother Neil put it:

 

Better the pride that resides

In a citizen of the world

Than the pride that divides

When a colourful rag is unfurled

It's still patriotic. Nothing about the definition of patriotic says that everyone has to agree with you. If I want to honor the veterans of WWII and their service to my country it's me being patriotic, regardless of how a German or Japanese citizen might think about it.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...