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What's the Beef about PREMIUM MEMBERS ONLY caches?


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The subject has been discussed/argued before but I'm bringing it up again. What's the problem ? Why do PMO caches stir up so much frenzy and anger ? What's weird is the ones who get the most frenzied and angry ARE PREMIUM MEMBERS !!

 

It makes zero sense! I could see if the frenzied and angry were cachers who couldn't afford the 30 bucks ! That would make sense ! It's kind of like,(and PLEASE do not get me wrong here!!!), cachers who complain about caches being or not being handicapped friendly but they're not handicapped !!

 

We have cachers in our local organization who refer to GC.com as, "GeoCa$hing.com." That's horrendous ! These people use the site EVERY DAY and are some of the most obsessed cachers in the area yet they bash and make fun of the very site they LIVE ON AND USE,USE,USE,USE !!!!!

 

We will always pay for membership and if you wanna hunt our caches you have to pay for a premium membership.

 

ALL of our caches are PMO and they always will be. If you're one that has a problem with that, don't hunt our caches it's that simple.

 

True story...We have one cacher in our area, premium member, who was taking a group of scouts out to a particular park where we own a cache, one of the oldest in the state, that we adopted last year. Now, the scouts only have a regular membership,she's premium. She was all offended and pissed off because the scouts wouldn't be able to log our cache or that's how she made it seem. This person started a thread,(gonil.org..."Thoughts on Premium Members Only Caches), about her disgust with PMO caches and pretty much named us and DID name our cache. She bashed us and our old cache,(which by the way, deserves respect wether you hate our guts or not), BUT she went out there the next day with the scouts and hunted our old cache and logged it as a find.

 

The scouts didn't log it !! What did she do? Did she tell the scouts,"Wait here while I go get this one. You can't because you don't have a premium account?" C'mon !! If I started a thread like that I would NEVER,EVER in a million years hunt that cache but if I did, I would've at least paid the 30 bucks for the scouts to get a premium membership so they could've hunted it and logged it too !

 

Get real ! The hypocrisy is disgusting !

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Your thread is off to a poor start. Savant9 offered very pertinent on-topic advice, yet you were dismissive and rude in your reply. If you are only interested in hearing from people who share your rant, your thread won't last very long. Please be respectful of people joining the discussion with opposing viewpoints or side notes. Thanks.

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Your thread is off to a poor start. Savant9 offered very pertinent on-topic advice, yet you were dismissive and rude in your reply. If you are only interested in hearing from people who share your rant, your thread won't last very long. Please be respectful of people joining the discussion with opposing viewpoints or side notes. Thanks.

 

That's OK, I can take being snapped at. I have a 14 year old daughter, I'm used to it. :(

 

So you have 43 hides, all MOC's. How do you suppose this looks to a new person, checking out geocaching for the first time? How many people do you think throw down $30 on their join date before looking for their first cache? There may be a few, people who were introduced to geocaching by friends or family, and went out a few times before joining. But I'm sure not too many.

 

About 2.5 years ago, a newbie started a thread asking why there were so many MOC's. With his city name under his avatar, I saw he was local to me, and I was able to determine there was an abnormally high number of MOC's in his zip code (about 40%). Guess what? He went on to find about 10 caches, and hasn't logged in in about 2 years.

 

I see the 2001 placed cache you adopted. Did you slap an MOC icon on a cache that was not previously an MOC? If so, yes, I'd find that rude and arrogant. Why wouldn't you want "everyone" to find this classic cache? It was placed before MOC's even existed.

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People that aren't satisfied with what they get for free and wanna complain about a cooperation that offers additional services for a small fee.

People that pay that pay for those services and wanna complain that they they have to.

People that pay and complain that others have to too.

People that complain about the a fore mentioned complainers.

 

People are gonna complain regardless of the situation.

 

Best way to deal with PMO caches, pick up pop bottles, scrap some steel, open a lemonade stand, have a bake sale, blah blah blah yac yac yac.

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I pretty much DID join the first day... before I found my first cache. But thats just me. I had wanted to do this for a while when one day my husband said "Honey have you heard of...?" I said "HONEY!! I can't believe you want to do this!!!" So it was sort of a done deal in our house.

 

I just hid my first cache. (Waiting for it to post. It's killing me.) It's a multiple with a $5 FTF prize. I've made it a MOC so that the first couple of finds can get the decent stuff in it. I'm planning to make it open to all because I figure the "let's go for the heck of it and not bother to take care of the cache" people might not bother with a multiple. I could be wrong.

 

I might do all MOC. Not sure. It's only $30 a year. That comes out to... about a buck a day? C'mon... there isn't another hobby in the world that is this cheap.

 

OH and BTW - handicapped caches? C'mon. People complain that a cache isn't? Hey folks - I'm all beat up (note the name?) and some caches me and my cane just can't get to. THAT'S OK. No one can do everything other people can do no matter what the subject. I look at it this way. I can't do all the caches you might be able to do but.... I get the best parking spaces! :(

Edited by Gimpy13
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I pretty much DID join the first day... before I found my first cache. But thats just me. I had wanted to do this for a while when one day my husband said "Honey have you heard of...?" I said "HONEY!! I can't believe you want to do this!!!" So it was sort of a done deal in our house.

 

I just hid my first cache. (Waiting for it to post. It's killing me.) It's a multiple with a $5 FTF prize. I've made it a MOC so that the first couple of finds can get the decent stuff in it. I'm planning to make it open to all because I figure the "let's go for the heck of it and not bother to take care of the cache" people might not bother with a multiple. I could be wrong.

 

I might do all MOC. Not sure. It's only $30 a year. That comes out to... about a buck a day? C'mon... there isn't another hobby in the world that is this cheap.

 

OH and BTW - handicapped caches? C'mon. People complain that a cache isn't? Hey folks - I'm all beat up (note the name?) and some caches me and my cane just can't get to. THAT'S OK. No one can do everything other people can do no matter what the subject. I look at it this way. I can't do all the caches you might be able to do but.... I get the best parking spaces! ;)

 

Oh sure, the first person to respond to me did plop down $30 the first day. :( But see, you knew about geocaching, and wanted to try it for a while.

 

As always in these threads, everyone seems to be concentrating on MOC's as if they were the sole reason for premium memberships. They are one of just dozens of features available to premium members.

 

These forums are dominated by premium members, and only the most active and social of geocachers are premium members. You do all realize the overwhelming majority of accounts are not premium, don't you? :D

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:D Not being a premium member long perhaps my .02 cents aren't worthy but here it goes. Was introduced to this activity by our cousin. Registered as normal to log and find new cashes. Discovered that being a premium member was the only way I could get downloads for GPX. No problem.... Also figured I could also have fun with making my own hides..... Great I'm off in the realm of Geo-caching and having a great time. I sure did not think that by spending my $30 that I was now a member of an elite and prestigious group with above the door mat snobbery. I believed that Our $$$$ was for a great group of people who manage and keep track of the web site so that we as a person/family/group could enjoy an activity that drags our velcro hind ends of the couch.

 

3 cheers for all those who take life with a grain of salt and make there time here worth while and joyful.

 

;) To those who need to pick/prod/beat down and de-humanize everything... :(

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I pretty much DID join the first day... before I found my first cache. But thats just me. I had wanted to do this for a while when one day my husband said "Honey have you heard of...?" I said "HONEY!! I can't believe you want to do this!!!" So it was sort of a done deal in our house.

 

I just hid my first cache. (Waiting for it to post. It's killing me.) It's a multiple with a $5 FTF prize. I've made it a MOC so that the first couple of finds can get the decent stuff in it. I'm planning to make it open to all because I figure the "let's go for the heck of it and not bother to take care of the cache" people might not bother with a multiple. I could be wrong.

 

I might do all MOC. Not sure. It's only $30 a year. That comes out to... about a buck a day? C'mon... there isn't another hobby in the world that is this cheap.

 

OH and BTW - handicapped caches? C'mon. People complain that a cache isn't? Hey folks - I'm all beat up (note the name?) and some caches me and my cane just can't get to. THAT'S OK. No one can do everything other people can do no matter what the subject. I look at it this way. I can't do all the caches you might be able to do but.... I get the best parking spaces! :(

 

I'm completely different here. I want my caches found by others, newbs or otherwise! In fact, it's great fun to read that a newb made their first find at one of my caches!! The excitement oozes right through the post and I feel a great sense of happiness knowing I made someone's day! I usually send the newbs a nice email welcoming them to the fun and offer any tips and suggestions I think may be helpful!!

 

You'll soon find that it isn't only the newbs who drain a cache of swag, making a cache PMO for this reason won't stop the degradation.

 

You'll also find that not everyone can afford to plop down $30 when they can already get most of the fun for free. It may not sound like much, but some of us are on a very tight weekly budget and $30 taken from the grocery money doesn't always cut it! Some can't afford a GPS and only use maps and much searching to find a cache....it's a tough world out here for some of us!

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I sure did not think that by spending my $30 that I was now a member of an elite and prestigious group with above the door mat snobbery. I believed that Our $$$$ was for a great group of people who manage and keep track of the web site so that we as a person/family/group could enjoy an activity that drags our velcro hind ends of the couch.

 

 

Exactly! It is the MOC's, and MOC's alone that lead to accusations of snobbery such as the OP has experienced. You think anyone would call you a snob because you can do Pocket Queries? :(

 

The "enhanced features for paying members" model is all over the internet. And is quite successful.

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A google search of the history of geocaching and the subsequent clash of personalities will allow one to understand the disdain of Premium Caches. I for one am glad that things turned out the way they did, regardless the controversy - the game has thrived. Would it be the same without someone taking charge - I doubt it. Thus I support the site and it valuable tools with a measly $30 a year. That is a steal in my opinion. However, to change the status of a long standing "free" (they all are free right?) to a POM just does not seem right.

 

Edit removed snotty remark....

Edited by Frank Broughton
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I've always been a premium member myself, however I have never limted caches to "members only". The more people that go and find my caches the happier I feel, and as Roddy posted above not everyone can afford to shell out the 30.00 for a membership. If people can't afford to pay for a membership then I am certainly not going to "punish" them for it. As a matter of fact our membership came up for renewal a just a few weeks back and we really had to scrounge to come up with the money and was wondering if we would even be able to do it. After being a member since 2005 I might be a little bit upset that I couldn't do "members only" caches in my area, but hey thats everyones own choice.

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go ahead and snap at me.

 

i don't like the elitist attitude of people who make all their caches PMO. if i have to be a member (which i have been for a lot longer than the OP) to find those caches, i'm not interested.

 

i filter them from my PQ (which i can run because i'm a member).

 

i think the reason that the complaints come from paying members is that we are in the best position to go on record as being against this exclusionary practice. one of the reasons i like geocaching is that anyone can do it. reserving some caches (and to my experience, not particularly good caches either) for just some of the special people rubs me the wrong way.

 

i'm not sure why the OP started a thread to champion exclusionary elitism, or more accurately, to dump on people who don't like PMO caches, but i'm sure it will only end in tears.

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As I understand it the MOC feature was added as a way to twart cache pirates, and that's all. If someone got their panties in a wad over the fact that all my new puzzles are MOCs I'd just roll my eyes and wonder why they're trying to do something about the MOCs and not doing anything about the taxes we're paying, the world of hurt Obama is about to put us in, or anything that's actually important. If they came to me upset about not being able to log their finds I'd be happy to point out how they could do it using the approved backdoor method, but if they posted forum threads bashing me and my caches and acted like a jerk I'd just ignore them.

 

I, for one, enjoy checking out the audit logs to get an idea of how many people are looking at my cache page as opposed to the few that are able to solve the puzzles and find the caches. I know PQ viewers aren't tracked, but I can still get a general idea.

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Consider the source, it seems that some people get personal satisfaction (i.e. get their rocks off) by way of a rant. The best way to handle them is not to throw gas on the fire (albeit: ignore the poor helpless sole that has nothing better to do)... imho...

 

Besides, they are making comments based on their own personal assumptions and interpretations not on fact.

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A google search of the history of geocaching and the subsequent clash of personalities will allow one to understand the disdain of Premium Caches. I for one am glad that things turned out the way they did, regardless the controversy - the game has thrived. Would it be the same without someone taking charge - I doubt it. Thus I support the site and it valuable tools with a measly $30 a year. That is a steal in my opinion. However, to change the status of a long standing "free" (they all are free right?) to a POM just does not seem right.

 

 

Per a post on the GoNil board:

 

Saw Wee Kee used to be non-subscriber when owned by the old owner but the new owner has all of their caches 'Subscriber Only' which is unusual. In my experiance Subscriber Only is reserved for special caches.

 

I think this is just sooooo wrong to slap an MOC icon on a long-standing "free" 2001 hide you adopted last year. There may have been other circumstances, such as muggling's, so I'd better reserve judgement. But with their other 42 caches all being MOC's, I'd tend to think they do it just because they can. :(

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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I pretty much DID join the first day... before I found my first cache. But thats just me. I had wanted to do this for a while when one day my husband said "Honey have you heard of...?" I said "HONEY!! I can't believe you want to do this!!!" So it was sort of a done deal in our house.

 

I just hid my first cache. (Waiting for it to post. It's killing me.) It's a multiple with a $5 FTF prize. I've made it a MOC so that the first couple of finds can get the decent stuff in it. I'm planning to make it open to all because I figure the "let's go for the heck of it and not bother to take care of the cache" people might not bother with a multiple. I could be wrong.

 

I might do all MOC. Not sure. It's only $30 a year. That comes out to... about a buck a day? C'mon... there isn't another hobby in the world that is this cheap.

 

OH and BTW - handicapped caches? C'mon. People complain that a cache isn't? Hey folks - I'm all beat up (note the name?) and some caches me and my cane just can't get to. THAT'S OK. No one can do everything other people can do no matter what the subject. I look at it this way. I can't do all the caches you might be able to do but.... I get the best parking spaces! :(

 

I'm completely different here. I want my caches found by others, newbs or otherwise! In fact, it's great fun to read that a newb made their first find at one of my caches!! The excitement oozes right through the post and I feel a great sense of happiness knowing I made someone's day! I usually send the newbs a nice email welcoming them to the fun and offer any tips and suggestions I think may be helpful!!

 

You'll soon find that it isn't only the newbs who drain a cache of swag, making a cache PMO for this reason won't stop the degradation.

 

You'll also find that not everyone can afford to plop down $30 when they can already get most of the fun for free. It may not sound like much, but some of us are on a very tight weekly budget and $30 taken from the grocery money doesn't always cut it! Some can't afford a GPS and only use maps and much searching to find a cache....it's a tough world out here for some of us!

 

If you can't afford to plop down $30/year (less than the cost of a Starbucks/month), how can you possibly afford the gasoline (or transit fare) to go caching? Even if you tag along with others, surely you must chip in for gas and that would exceed $30/year pretty quickly. Not to mention paying for a GPS.

 

The $30/year that Groundspeak charges is probably the best bargain in any sport/activity in the world.

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The subject has been discussed/argued before but I'm bringing it up again. What's the problem ? Why do PMO caches stir up so much frenzy and anger ? What's weird is the ones who get the most frenzied and angry ARE PREMIUM MEMBERS !!

 

It makes zero sense! I could see if the frenzied and angry were cachers who couldn't afford the 30 bucks ! That would make sense ! It's kind of like,(and PLEASE do not get me wrong here!!!), cachers who complain about caches being or not being handicapped friendly but they're not handicapped !!

 

We have cachers in our local organization who refer to GC.com as, "GeoCa$hing.com." That's horrendous ! These people use the site EVERY DAY and are some of the most obsessed cachers in the area yet they bash and make fun of the very site they LIVE ON AND USE,USE,USE,USE !!!!!

 

We will always pay for membership and if you wanna hunt our caches you have to pay for a premium membership.

 

ALL of our caches are PMO and they always will be. If you're one that has a problem with that, don't hunt our caches it's that simple.

 

True story...We have one cacher in our area, premium member, who was taking a group of scouts out to a particular park where we own a cache, one of the oldest in the state, that we adopted last year. Now, the scouts only have a regular membership,she's premium. She was all offended and pissed off because the scouts wouldn't be able to log our cache or that's how she made it seem. This person started a thread,(gonil.org..."Thoughts on Premium Members Only Caches), about her disgust with PMO caches and pretty much named us and DID name our cache. She bashed us and our old cache,(which by the way, deserves respect wether you hate our guts or not), BUT she went out there the next day with the scouts and hunted our old cache and logged it as a find.

 

The scouts didn't log it !! What did she do? Did she tell the scouts,"Wait here while I go get this one. You can't because you don't have a premium account?" C'mon !! If I started a thread like that I would NEVER,EVER in a million years hunt that cache but if I did, I would've at least paid the 30 bucks for the scouts to get a premium membership so they could've hunted it and logged it too !

 

Get real ! The hypocrisy is disgusting !

 

kind of an enteresting thread

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If you can't afford to plop down $30/year (less than the cost of a Starbucks/month), how can you possibly afford the gasoline (or transit fare) to go caching? Even if you tag along with others, surely you must chip in for gas and that would exceed $30/year pretty quickly. Not to mention paying for a GPS.

 

The $30/year that Groundspeak charges is probably the best bargain in any sport/activity in the world.

Not everyone has to drive to caching areas. Some are close enough to walk or bike. There's also the people who cache when it's convenient to things they'd be doing anyway, like driving to and from work, so there's no extra cost there. People who use public transit regularly probably have an annual pass. Some people might only go caching once a month, so the gas wouldn't necessarily add up to much. A GPS can be old (mine is seven years) or a gift. And not everyone drinks $3 coffee.

 

$30 isn't much, but the usual arguments insisting anyone can afford it don't hold water with me. Lots of people have it tough these days, especially in Michigan. I don't begrudge anyone in a tight position using this site that I help fund for a little enjoyment.

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I pretty much DID join the first day... before I found my first cache. But thats just me. I had wanted to do this for a while when one day my husband said "Honey have you heard of...?" I said "HONEY!! I can't believe you want to do this!!!" So it was sort of a done deal in our house.

 

I just hid my first cache. (Waiting for it to post. It's killing me.) It's a multiple with a $5 FTF prize. I've made it a MOC so that the first couple of finds can get the decent stuff in it. I'm planning to make it open to all because I figure the "let's go for the heck of it and not bother to take care of the cache" people might not bother with a multiple. I could be wrong.

 

I might do all MOC. Not sure. It's only $30 a year. That comes out to... about a buck a day? C'mon... there isn't another hobby in the world that is this cheap.

 

OH and BTW - handicapped caches? C'mon. People complain that a cache isn't? Hey folks - I'm all beat up (note the name?) and some caches me and my cane just can't get to. THAT'S OK. No one can do everything other people can do no matter what the subject. I look at it this way. I can't do all the caches you might be able to do but.... I get the best parking spaces! :(

 

I'm completely different here. I want my caches found by others, newbs or otherwise! In fact, it's great fun to read that a newb made their first find at one of my caches!! The excitement oozes right through the post and I feel a great sense of happiness knowing I made someone's day! I usually send the newbs a nice email welcoming them to the fun and offer any tips and suggestions I think may be helpful!!

 

You'll soon find that it isn't only the newbs who drain a cache of swag, making a cache PMO for this reason won't stop the degradation.

 

You'll also find that not everyone can afford to plop down $30 when they can already get most of the fun for free. It may not sound like much, but some of us are on a very tight weekly budget and $30 taken from the grocery money doesn't always cut it! Some can't afford a GPS and only use maps and much searching to find a cache....it's a tough world out here for some of us!

 

If you can't afford to plop down $30/year (less than the cost of a Starbucks/month), how can you possibly afford the gasoline (or transit fare) to go caching? Even if you tag along with others, surely you must chip in for gas and that would exceed $30/year pretty quickly. Not to mention paying for a GPS.

 

The $30/year that Groundspeak charges is probably the best bargain in any sport/activity in the world.

 

Believe it or not, some people cache via bike or walking, some multi-task (cache while shopping if a cache might be on the way, etc) and some only make a weekly or less caching family excursion (which might only involve going to a local park, finding a few caches and having a picnic lunch). Sometimes, peole have friends who are happy to include them on an cache run! I'm not saying people don't spend more than $30/year caching, I'm saying the additional $30/year might be more than they can justify (especially if they can already do it for free).

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If you can't afford to plop down $30/year (less than the cost of a Starbucks/month), how can you possibly afford the gasoline (or transit fare) to go caching? Even if you tag along with others, surely you must chip in for gas and that would exceed $30/year pretty quickly. Not to mention paying for a GPS.

 

The $30/year that Groundspeak charges is probably the best bargain in any sport/activity in the world.

Not everyone has to drive to caching areas. Some are close enough to walk or bike. There's also the people who cache when it's convenient to things they'd be doing anyway, like driving to and from work, so there's no extra cost there. People who use public transit regularly probably have an annual pass. Some people might only go caching once a month, so the gas wouldn't necessarily add up to much. A GPS can be old (mine is seven years) or a gift. And not everyone drinks $3 coffee.

 

$30 isn't much, but the usual arguments insisting anyone can afford it don't hold water with me. Lots of people have it tough these days, especially in Michigan. I don't begrudge anyone in a tight position using this site that I help fund for a little enjoyment.

 

Well said, my friend!! A bit faster and better than I could spit out too!

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go ahead and snap at me.

 

i don't like the elitist attitude of people who make all their caches PMO. if i have to be a member (which i have been for a lot longer than the OP) to find those caches, i'm not interested.

 

i filter them from my PQ (which i can run because i'm a member).

 

i think the reason that the complaints come from paying members is that we are in the best position to go on record as being against this exclusionary practice. one of the reasons i like geocaching is that anyone can do it. reserving some caches (and to my experience, not particularly good caches either) for just some of the special people rubs me the wrong way.

 

i'm not sure why the OP started a thread to champion exclusionary elitism, or more accurately, to dump on people who don't like PMO caches, but i'm sure it will only end in tears.

 

Well, that's certainly an interesting perspective from Flask. Me, I don't ignore MOC's, and before someone investigates my profile :( yes, I even owned one (since archived). There are many people who feel like Flask does. I'm sure they're just sick of being shouted down by the masses, and hearing the same things over and over: It's a great bargain! It's less than $1 a day! You're supporting the website! Your're supporting Geocaching! The owners need to buy Cheez Wiz and Burrito's! (I stole that last one from the GoNil board, pretty funny, eh?)

 

All statements which seem to ignore the fact we're discussing MOC's, and not premium memberships in general.

 

Oh, and by the way, it's a great bargain!!

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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The subject has been discussed/argued before but I'm bringing it up again. What's the problem ?

Yes, the subject has been beaten to death. The problem is detailed in the host of threads listed by KF.

 

Yes, I do think making a cache MOC simply to "give back" is elitist. Placing caches, maintaining caches, hosting events, helping newibes, etc. is "giving back." Being "inclusionary" is "giving back." Being exclusionary simply because of a payment to Groundspeak is not "giving back," it's elitism because you are "giving back" to only a sub-set of cachers.

 

I have less of a problem with folks who make a cache MOC for reasons of security as it's the only tool given to us.

 

I'm with others who don't care for the fact you've taken an older cache which was open to all and made it MOC. Not cool at all.

 

Also, I'm not sure if you realize this, but making a Traditional cache MOC is just about pointless if it's about security. Considering a Traditional is should be at the listed coordinates and one can manipulate the Nearest Cache list URL to home in on the listed coordinates, this bit of security is pointless. You're only slowing down someone wanting to see it. Then add to that the ability for a non-paying member to log a MOC. What's the point?

 

Actually, it almost sounds like you've got you nose all out of joint because of some the locals and you're making some sort of point.

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The subject has been discussed/argued before but I'm bringing it up again. What's the problem ? Why do PMO caches stir up so much frenzy and anger ? What's weird is the ones who get the most frenzied and angry ARE PREMIUM MEMBERS !!

 

It makes zero sense! I could see if the frenzied and angry were cachers who couldn't afford the 30 bucks ! That would make sense ! It's kind of like,(and PLEASE do not get me wrong here!!!), cachers who complain about caches being or not being handicapped friendly but they're not handicapped !!

 

We have cachers in our local organization who refer to GC.com as, "GeoCa$hing.com." That's horrendous ! These people use the site EVERY DAY and are some of the most obsessed cachers in the area yet they bash and make fun of the very site they LIVE ON AND USE,USE,USE,USE !!!!!

 

We will always pay for membership and if you wanna hunt our caches you have to pay for a premium membership.

 

ALL of our caches are PMO and they always will be. If you're one that has a problem with that, don't hunt our caches it's that simple.

 

True story...We have one cacher in our area, premium member, who was taking a group of scouts out to a particular park where we own a cache, one of the oldest in the state, that we adopted last year. Now, the scouts only have a regular membership,she's premium. She was all offended and pissed off because the scouts wouldn't be able to log our cache or that's how she made it seem. This person started a thread,(gonil.org..."Thoughts on Premium Members Only Caches), about her disgust with PMO caches and pretty much named us and DID name our cache. She bashed us and our old cache,(which by the way, deserves respect wether you hate our guts or not), BUT she went out there the next day with the scouts and hunted our old cache and logged it as a find.

 

The scouts didn't log it !! What did she do? Did she tell the scouts,"Wait here while I go get this one. You can't because you don't have a premium account?" C'mon !! If I started a thread like that I would NEVER,EVER in a million years hunt that cache but if I did, I would've at least paid the 30 bucks for the scouts to get a premium membership so they could've hunted it and logged it too !

 

Get real ! The hypocrisy is disgusting !

 

kind of an enteresting thread

 

 

I had read this thread myself this morning. Here was my favorite part:

 

TSAWSF

 

Re: Thoughts on subscriber-only caches

« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2008, 03:59:53 AM »

 

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We stopped by early this morning to find out how to terminate our membership.We happened to notice this topic and read.What a surprise it was to learn that we were pretty much the subject of the topic.Instead of talking about us behind our backs it would've been nice if someone,anyone,would've asked us about our PMOC's instead of assuming and gossiping!!

 

I'm assuming, of course, that the OP isn't just making someone the subject of a topic, talking behind their back, assuming and gossiping. :(

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We will always pay for membership and if you wanna hunt our caches you have to pay for a premium membership.

 

ALL of our caches are PMO and they always will be. If you're one that has a problem with that, don't hunt our caches it's that simple.

 

What I'm mostly concerned about is the growth of the game. Take for example some of my traditionals in The Glebe - Periodically, I get a log from new cachers who are o their first day of caching. If we all made all of our caches PMO, what do you think the odds are that those new cachers would have picked up the game?

 

The only reason that I agree with for making a cache PMO is if it is a very difficult puzzle, and you want see the Audit logs. That being said, none of my caches are or ever will be PMO. I like it when people find my caches, and want everyone to have a chance to do so.

 

$30 isn't much, but the usual arguments insisting anyone can afford it don't hold water with me. Lots of people have it tough these days, especially in Michigan. I don't begrudge anyone in a tight position using this site that I help fund for a little enjoyment.

 

Growing up in Windsor, ON, I'm all too aware of this...

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I pretty much DID join the first day... before I found my first cache. But thats just me. I had wanted to do this for a while when one day my husband said "Honey have you heard of...?" I said "HONEY!! I can't believe you want to do this!!!" So it was sort of a done deal in our house.

 

I just hid my first cache. (Waiting for it to post. It's killing me.) It's a multiple with a $5 FTF prize. I've made it a MOC so that the first couple of finds can get the decent stuff in it. I'm planning to make it open to all because I figure the "let's go for the heck of it and not bother to take care of the cache" people might not bother with a multiple. I could be wrong.

 

I might do all MOC. Not sure. It's only $30 a year. That comes out to... about a buck a day? C'mon... there isn't another hobby in the world that is this cheap.

 

OH and BTW - handicapped caches? C'mon. People complain that a cache isn't? Hey folks - I'm all beat up (note the name?) and some caches me and my cane just can't get to. THAT'S OK. No one can do everything other people can do no matter what the subject. I look at it this way. I can't do all the caches you might be able to do but.... I get the best parking spaces! ;)

 

Oh sure, the first person to respond to me did plop down $30 the first day. :( But see, you knew about geocaching, and wanted to try it for a while.

 

As always in these threads, everyone seems to be concentrating on MOC's as if they were the sole reason for premium memberships. They are one of just dozens of features available to premium members.

 

These forums are dominated by premium members, and only the most active and social of geocachers are premium members. You do all realize the overwhelming majority of accounts are not premium, don't you? :D

 

We went premium because my husband wanted to do all the cool premium stuff (he's hard core geek) and I wanted the things like watchlists, bookmarks, etc (can't remember which I got for joining but it's the one I wanted!).

 

It makes sense that the vast majority of people are free accounts and that's perfectly OK with me - I think of it like NPR. Listen, don't listen. If you listen and want to make a donation that's great. If you don't it's OK although the product might be better if you do. (I think of this everytime the server here gets bogged down and it takes forever to load).

 

I'm fine with folks both ways. But I did my first cache members only just because it's my first one. I probably will never do it again. I love the idea of mine being the first one a new person finds - which is why I'll change this one to public as soon as there as been a FTF.

 

This is just my comfort zone. I've found a few caches that are members only that were light skirts. What's up with that? Do you really think a tiny log stuck in a film canister in a Kroger parking lot is special? Those are the ones I wonder about...

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A google search of the history of geocaching and the subsequent clash of personalities will allow one to understand the disdain of Premium Caches. I for one am glad that things turned out the way they did, regardless the controversy - the game has thrived. Would it be the same without someone taking charge - I doubt it. Thus I support the site and it valuable tools with a measly $30 a year. That is a steal in my opinion. However, to change the status of a long standing "free" (they all are free right?) to a POM just does not seem right.

 

 

Per a post on the GoNil board:

 

Saw Wee Kee used to be non-subscriber when owned by the old owner but the new owner has all of their caches 'Subscriber Only' which is unusual. In my experiance Subscriber Only is reserved for special caches.

 

I think this is just sooooo wrong to slap an MOC icon on a long-standing "free" 2001 hide you adopted last year. There may have been other circumstances, such as muggling's, so I'd better reserve judgement. But with their other 42 caches all being MOC's, I'd tend to think they do it just because they can. ;)

 

"Other circumstances," is exactly why Saw Wee Kee is PMO now ! We found our 8 year old cache trashed to the max, all the swag/camera stolen AND 2 TB's and a Geocoin were swiped too. We were horrified to find it the way we did. I'm not lying when I tell you I cried. I stood there and cried. We were beside ourselves. Who would do this to an old cache? We came across the little,"Check here if you want premium members only," box by accident and then discovered the audit log. It seemed like it might offer us some way to find out who might be responsible. Would the culprit visit the page over and over ? Who knows, but it was something. This cache is now CHAINED IN PLACE and cannot be removed. We adopted this cache that's 40 miles from where we live and we felt like new parents adopting a kid. What happened was shocking and OBVIOUSLY some other cacher was responsible as this cache is in no way, shape or form, muggleable !

 

Through the audit log and other means, we have a pretty good idea about who was responsible.

 

So the PMO thing stuck with us and I think we have a darn good reason to keep it that way. We don't have our cache PMO to offend anyone nor are we snobs who think us or our caches are better than anybody or anybody elses, it's just the way it is for us and I don't think it's a reason for others to get angry.

 

As for the link to our local organization that was posted...we don't go there to defend ourselves anymore because the organization is a click that does not welcome anyone who doesn't agree or share the same opinion and the one with the biggest mouth threatened to kill our dog. We wrote to him about some photos he posted of dead animals. We were horrified by them. He wrote back and asked us if our dog would like to pose for some his photos and then he said, "Hope I meet you on the trails someday." It goes on and on but for us, the PMO thing is the way it is right now. If someone's offended, don't hunt them. I'm sure we're on many an ignore list but that's cool. We don't really care. thanks :(

Edited by TeamSeekAndWeShallFind
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AFAIK the scouts could have logged the cache anyway. There was a loophole that allowed this, then it was inadvertently "fixed" but has since been re-implemented. Approved technique by Jeremy no less.

 

Yea thanks but guess what ? You TOTALLY missed the point. Next.....

 

He nailed it. You are griping about her griping, and griping about the post to boot. savant9 said there was a solution to the problem being gripped about. Thus all the gripping is optional. Now venting is another thing. Were you venting or looking for solutions?

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If you can't afford to plop down $30/year (less than the cost of a Starbucks/month), how can you possibly afford the gasoline (or transit fare) to go caching? Even if you tag along with others, surely you must chip in for gas and that would exceed $30/year pretty quickly. Not to mention paying for a GPS.

 

The $30/year that Groundspeak charges is probably the best bargain in any sport/activity in the world.

Not everyone has to drive to caching areas. Some are close enough to walk or bike. There's also the people who cache when it's convenient to things they'd be doing anyway, like driving to and from work, so there's no extra cost there. People who use public transit regularly probably have an annual pass. Some people might only go caching once a month, so the gas wouldn't necessarily add up to much. A GPS can be old (mine is seven years) or a gift. And not everyone drinks $3 coffee.

 

$30 isn't much, but the usual arguments insisting anyone can afford it don't hold water with me. Lots of people have it tough these days, especially in Michigan. I don't begrudge anyone in a tight position using this site that I help fund for a little enjoyment.

And you PM fees are appreciated by this "Refuses to go collect pop bottles in the winter" former PM.

And my next cache (I'll be a PM again by then) is going to be a PMO for the first month as a thank you for you guys helping to keep the site alive.

 

Ouch, I think I just spotted a perfectly reasonable line of logic for having that type of cache.

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Through the audit log and other means, we have a pretty good idea about who was responsible.

Yeah? So? What are you going to do about it?

 

Also, considering you've still got it listed as a Traditional, you only moved it 42', and the person you suspect was the culprit is still visiting the cache page meaning he is a PM anyway, your logic fails. Making it MOC won't keep him from seeing the cache page and knowing where to look for it.

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Through the audit log and other means, we have a pretty good idea about who was responsible.

Yeah? So? What are you going to do about it?

 

Also, considering you've still got it listed as a Traditional, you only moved it 42', and the person you suspect was the culprit is still visiting the cache page meaning he is a PM anyway, your logic fails. Making it MOC won't keep him from seeing the cache page and knowing where to look for it.

 

 

The problem here is nobody asks they only assume...Now we've shared the reason our old cache is PMO but nobody really cares, they just want to keep bashing PMO caches. Not one person has even said,"Geez, sorry to hear about your cache." If I was reading this and heard about the trashing, I would've left a note expressing how badly I felt for the cache owner. The culprit no longer visits the cache page. Why he doesn't is nobody's business, he just doesn't. He made himself obvious by visiting the cache page, obviously oblivious to the audit log, 278 times in a 2 week period after he trashed our cache AND stole $20 worth of brand new swag AND our $7 disposable camera AND 2 bugs and an old Geocoin that belong to other people,which by the way, we had to write to them and break the bad news that their travelres were STOLEN !!

 

Then we had to have the old ammo can welded and repaired. Then we bought hardware to secure the cache in place. Oh yea, we also travel 40 miles each way to check on it.

 

Also, what this person did wasn't just an evil move against us. It was an evil move against the original owner and Geocachers everywhere. If someone dislikes us, that's cool, who cares, but don't take it out on an old cache that's been around for almost 8 years. These old caches are a symbol of Geocaching beginnings and to trash one is a truly evil act. Caches, wether they're a day old or 8 years old should be treated with respect. In this sport we all need to trust eachother. When I saw our cache that day we were sick because it felt like a betrayal. The audit log showed us who was responsible and we watched him visit the page over and over and over in a single day. When we put things together it all made sense.

 

What are we going to do about it ? Nothing, but that's not the point. We know who trashed our cache and this person goes around with all the regulars in the area and I gaurantee the rest of them have no idea what their friend did. To me, it's sad. We would NEVER trash a cache no matter how we feel about the owner in fact, we've performed maintenance many times on caches where we don't particularly care for the owner. Why ? Because it's the right thing to do and our feeling for him/her are separate from the cache because the cache is also for others to enjoy.

 

Time to go. We come to the forums every few months but most likely won't ever again. Bad,bad idea. I think we'll go hide somemore PMO caches. :(;) Later.

 

Edit: I know editing is bad but I just wanted to add that along with all the stuff listed above that got STOLEN, I spent 6 bucks on a very cool,very special logbook. Is 6 bucks a fortune? No, not the point. It's a special cache and it deserved a nice logbook. It had a really relevant saying etched on the cover. So do the math, 20 bucks in swag,6 bucks logbook,7 bucks camera....that's 33 bucks right there. C took the ammo can to work and a friend welded it and attached a huge eye screw thingamajiggy,then we bought a chain and a freaking lock. Oh yea, what does it cost in gas to maintain a cache 80 miles roundtrip? We have every right to have this cache PMO. Don't like it, don't hunt it. Your loss !

Edited by TeamSeekAndWeShallFind
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The way I see it, if I go out and buy an ammo can, spend the time to fill it with swag and find a location to hide it then I will do what I dadgum well please when I list it. If I want it to be a PMO then that's the way it is. I have that opportunity since I pay a meager 30 bucks a year so if people want to view the page then cough up the money. Don't like it? Too bad!

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If I was reading this and heard about the trashing, I would've left a note expressing how badly I felt for the cache owner.

 

Your consideration for others is well evidenced in your reply to me.

 

I'm am sorry but your initial comment was irrelevant and you totally missed the point. The thing about the backdoor in has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was trying to make. If it's a point to you then that's fine but I started the thread and it's not my point.

 

So, I apologize if I hurt your feelings but don't now come back and say I'm inconsiderate because of one little comment. You didn't like my unfair comment now I don't like yours. Are we even? Can we move on now?

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If I was reading this and heard about the trashing, I would've left a note expressing how badly I felt for the cache owner.

 

Your consideration for others is well evidenced in your reply to me.

 

I'm am sorry but your initial comment was irrelevant to me and I thought you totally missed the point. The thing about the backdoor in has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was trying to make. If it's a point to you then that's fine but I started the thread and it's not my point.

 

So, I apologize if I hurt your feelings but don't now come back and say I'm inconsiderate because of one little comment. You don't know me. You have no idea how considerate I might be. So again, instead of assuming, ask and get the facts. You didn't like my unfair comment now I don't like yours. Are we even? Can we move on now? I hope so, geez !

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The problem here is nobody asks they only assume...Now we've shared the reason our old cache is PMO but nobody really cares, they just want to keep bashing PMO caches. Not one person has even said,"Geez, sorry to hear about your cache." If I was reading this and heard about the trashing, I would've left a note expressing how badly I felt for the cache owner. The culprit no longer visits the cache page. Why he doesn't is nobody's business, he just doesn't. He made himself obvious by visiting the cache page, obviously oblivious to the audit log, 278 times in a 2 week period after he trashed our cache AND stole $20 worth of brand new swag AND our $7 disposable camera AND 2 bugs and an old Geocoin that belong to other people,which by the way, we had to write to them and break the bad news that their travelres were STOLEN !!

 

Then we had to have the old ammo can welded and repaired. Then we bought hardware to secure the cache in place. Oh yea, we also travel 40 miles each way to check on it.

 

Also, what this person did wasn't just an evil move against us. It was an evil move against the original owner and Geocachers everywhere. If someone dislikes us, that's cool, who cares, but don't take it out on an old cache that's been around for almost 8 years. These old caches are a symbol of Geocaching beginnings and to trash one is a truly evil act. Caches, wether they're a day old or 8 years old should be treated with respect. In this sport we all need to trust eachother. When I saw our cache that day we were sick because it felt like a betrayal. The audit log showed us who was responsible and we watched him visit the page over and over and over in a single day. When we put things together it all made sense.

 

What are we going to do about it ? Nothing, but that's not the point. We know who trashed our cache and this person goes around with all the regulars in the area and I gaurantee the rest of them have no idea what their friend did. To me, it's sad. We would NEVER trash a cache no matter how we feel about the owner in fact, we've performed maintenance many times on caches where we don't particularly care for the owner. Why ? Because it's the right thing to do and our feeling for him/her are separate from the cache because the cache is also for others to enjoy.

 

Time to go. We come to the forums every few months but most likely won't ever again. Bad,bad idea. I think we'll go hide somemore PMO caches. :(;) Later.

Kinda funny. What I read was how someone assume that their cache was ransacked by a geocacher because in their opinion the cache was "in no way, shape, or form muggable". Then after making the cache a PMO, assume that the person who ransacked their cache not only checked the cache page once but many times. Seems they already "knew" who the culprit was and wanted to use the audit log for "proof". So far their has been no proof shown that th cache was ransacked by a cacher or that a name in the audit log proves guilt. It seems this is more of an argument between two geocachers, probably over something completely different that has escalated into making unsubstantiated charges. Of course the OP doesn't name names because they know they can't prove a thing. Making a cache a PMO cache may prevent a local cache pirate or maggot (someone who signs up for a basic account in order to find caches to ransack and steal things from), since the $30/year provides some sort of barrier to that person. Making a cache a PMO cache doesn't protect it from someone you are having a personal dispute with. Nor does it protect a cache from being muggled by a muggle who happens upon it. IMO, there is no cache that is so well hidden or out of the way that it is not muggable. And even then, if a muggle doesn't find your cache, some animal will. Even an animal may be able to get an ammo can opened and have at its contents. It does sound that your adopted cache was more likely found by a person and possibly even by a geocacher you had a dispute with. Just saying that using PMO for protecting a cache has limited functionality.

 

I tend to agree with Vater_Araignee that a good reason to make a cache temporarily PMO is as one way to thank others for supporting the website. Give them a chance to be FTF or to find the cache while it has some better swag in it. Then open it up for others to find. There will always be debate as to what reasons justify making a caches PMO. But as it stands now, no one should have to justify why they made their cache PMO. In this I agree with the OP. They want to have PMO caches, including making a cache they adopted PMO, they have that right. However, when a PMO cacher takes a friend or a scout troop on a cache outing, don't expect that they will know what are PMO caches and what aren't. While they could get a PQ that excludes PMO caches, most won't. Many will use their offline database to setup the caches they are looking for and since the GPX file doesn't contain this information, they don't know what is PMO and what isn't. Because of this, TPTB have left (reopened) a backdoor. Non-premium members who have found a PMO cache along with a premium member friend should be allowed to log this cache. I'd even let stand the log of a basic member who has figured out the way to get the coordinates of a traditional PMO cache and logged on it on their own.

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It's only $30 a year. That comes out to... about a buck a day?

 

Interesting math. :( about 8 cents a day.

 

Hehe yeah I noticed that this morning and thought awww man... I knew someone would call me on it.

 

I plead being filthy. I was still picking pine needles out of my hair from having thrashed around fruitlessly in the woods yesterday afternoon. I hate pine forests.

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The problem here is nobody asks they only assume...Now we've shared the reason our old cache is PMO but nobody really cares, they just want to keep bashing PMO caches. Not one person has even said,"Geez, sorry to hear about your cache." If I was reading this and heard about the trashing, I would've left a note expressing how badly I felt for the cache owner. The culprit no longer visits the cache page. Why he doesn't is nobody's business, he just doesn't. He made himself obvious by visiting the cache page, obviously oblivious to the audit log, 278 times in a 2 week period after he trashed our cache AND stole $20 worth of brand new swag AND our $7 disposable camera AND 2 bugs and an old Geocoin that belong to other people,which by the way, we had to write to them and break the bad news that their travelres were STOLEN !!

 

Then we had to have the old ammo can welded and repaired. Then we bought hardware to secure the cache in place. Oh yea, we also travel 40 miles each way to check on it.

 

Also, what this person did wasn't just an evil move against us. It was an evil move against the original owner and Geocachers everywhere. If someone dislikes us, that's cool, who cares, but don't take it out on an old cache that's been around for almost 8 years. These old caches are a symbol of Geocaching beginnings and to trash one is a truly evil act. Caches, wether they're a day old or 8 years old should be treated with respect. In this sport we all need to trust eachother. When I saw our cache that day we were sick because it felt like a betrayal. The audit log showed us who was responsible and we watched him visit the page over and over and over in a single day. When we put things together it all made sense.

 

What are we going to do about it ? Nothing, but that's not the point. We know who trashed our cache and this person goes around with all the regulars in the area and I gaurantee the rest of them have no idea what their friend did. To me, it's sad. We would NEVER trash a cache no matter how we feel about the owner in fact, we've performed maintenance many times on caches where we don't particularly care for the owner. Why ? Because it's the right thing to do and our feeling for him/her are separate from the cache because the cache is also for others to enjoy.

 

Time to go. We come to the forums every few months but most likely won't ever again. Bad,bad idea. I think we'll go hide somemore PMO caches. :(;) Later.

Kinda funny. What I read was how someone assume that their cache was ransacked by a geocacher because in their opinion the cache was "in no way, shape, or form muggable". Then after making the cache a PMO, assume that the person who ransacked their cache not only checked the cache page once but many times. Seems they already "knew" who the culprit was and wanted to use the audit log for "proof". So far their has been no proof shown that th cache was ransacked by a cacher or that a name in the audit log proves guilt. It seems this is more of an argument between two geocachers, probably over something completely different that has escalated into making unsubstantiated charges. Of course the OP doesn't name names because they know they can't prove a thing. Making a cache a PMO cache may prevent a local cache pirate or maggot (someone who signs up for a basic account in order to find caches to ransack and steal things from), since the $30/year provides some sort of barrier to that person. Making a cache a PMO cache doesn't protect it from someone you are having a personal dispute with. Nor does it protect a cache from being muggled by a muggle who happens upon it. IMO, there is no cache that is so well hidden or out of the way that it is not muggable. And even then, if a muggle doesn't find your cache, some animal will. Even an animal may be able to get an ammo can opened and have at its contents. It does sound that your adopted cache was more likely found by a person and possibly even by a geocacher you had a dispute with. Just saying that using PMO for protecting a cache has limited functionality.

 

I tend to agree with Vater_Araignee that a good reason to make a cache temporarily PMO is as one way to thank others for supporting the website. Give them a chance to be FTF or to find the cache while it has some better swag in it. Then open it up for others to find. There will always be debate as to what reasons justify making a caches PMO. But as it stands now, no one should have to justify why they made their cache PMO. In this I agree with the OP. They want to have PMO caches, including making a cache they adopted PMO, they have that right. However, when a PMO cacher takes a friend or a scout troop on a cache outing, don't expect that they will know what are PMO caches and what aren't. While they could get a PQ that excludes PMO caches, most won't. Many will use their offline database to setup the caches they are looking for and since the GPX file doesn't contain this information, they don't know what is PMO and what isn't. Because of this, TPTB have left (reopened) a backdoor. Non-premium members who have found a PMO cache along with a premium member friend should be allowed to log this cache. I'd even let stand the log of a basic member who has figured out the way to get the coordinates of a traditional PMO cache and logged on it on their own.

 

There goes that ol' assuming thing again. You made up your own story right here and assume we have some kind of dispute with this person ! Guess What ?? WE DON'T !! Don't know him,never met him,never spoke to him. Maybe HE'S the one with the problem, ever think of that? I told you once already, WE KNOW WHO TRASHED OUR CACHE !! So don't say we're assuming we know. I'll say it again,WE KNOW WHO TRASHED OUR CACHE. Ok, is that understood ? Does anybody ask for facts around here? Let me answer my own question....NO !!

 

I'll say it one last time..If you don't like PMO caches, don't hunt them. We pay for the containers,the swag,the logbook etc... We go out and find a place to hide it. We maintain it. We can do whatever we want with it and that includes slapping the PREMIUM MEMBERS ONLY tag on it ! We don't care if our cache/caches sit for a year without being hunted because eventually there will be sane cachers who'll hunt em' log em' and respect em'. Our membership expires in September but I think I'll renew it today. Later.

 

While you're checking our profile, check our Lure of the Wilderness cache pages. The last one, Caw of the Crow, took me about 40 hours to create in my spare time. We also ordered a VERY COOL crow container to put out in the field,( $17 plus shipping),which we just did on Saturday. So between the money spent there and the endless hours it took to create the pages for that series, we have every right to make them PMO if we want to !!

 

Note to self: "Dear Self, Stay away from forums."

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