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PN-40 vs 60CSx


dadude712

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Another one not sure what the topic is??

 

On a side note....if you're referring to me when you state about the DeLorme special features and buying them, I own a DeLorme PN-40 and LOVE IT!! Also, Garmin-bashing?? Really?? Maybe it's more like letting people know there ARE other products than the "holy Garmin". You guys come in here and preach Garmin even when you don't know the topic for crying out loud. And all use the same argument...screen is too small. Then you bash DeLorme by making it sound like they won't deliver on the promised update! Just who is bashing whom? I truly get the feeling some feel "threatened" by the DeLorme and feel they need to defend Garmin at all costs....again, we're not rooting for our favorite sports teams.

 

The topic is PN-40s vs 60CSx, and since the OP said he'd consider other units, my post addressed exactly that.

 

Also, the OP requested friendly responses. Are you on topic in this regard? You get very defensive when some folks disagree with the "holy Delorme" even when it doesn't provide some of the features the OP requested.

 

And yes, I know the topic, having looked at every unit described thus far in this thread when I was deciding on a purchase. I am simply describing to the OP the reasons I did not buy the unit IN THE TOPIC and why I felt some others might be a better choice for him to fit his criteria.

 

Regarding promised updates, I would not have purchased a Garmin either if they promised Mac support or paperless caching but didn't include it now. It has nothing to do with Garmin, or Delorme for that matter, as a company. It has everything to do with what I needed right now.

 

As far as price, there are people who have been able to purchase a 60CSx for $159-$229 recently on Amazon. I paid less than $350 for my Oregon including all the maps that are currently on it. List price means nothing.

 

I'm really glad you're happy with your Delorme, and if the OP decides it's the unit for him, happy trails! But what works for you doesn't necessarily work for everyone, and getting OFF TOPIC by getting on someone's case because they prefer a larger screen really isn't helpful to anyone, especially when this is a feature that matters to some people.

 

BlueDamsel

 

I believe I was very friendly with my response, did it offend? I am merely pointing out there are other brands besides Garmin, I think some of you are so loyal, you forget this! Can you point out where I got on anyone's case?? I believe my comment (regarding screen size) was in response to the ridiculously misleading statement that the PN-40 has an "itty bitty" screen. I contend that statement was used more to bash than to help in a decision...off topic??

 

If you tell me you can get a CO or OR with maps to route and all and under the $400 range, I would have to say CONGRATS!! Please share your outlet with others looking for a deal, it might just make their minds up for them! Personally, it wouldn't matter if the units were at or below the price as the PN-40, the PN-40 would still be my choice. Anyone not checking out the maps which allow one to actually "see" details of the land before leaving the car are missing out on some really cool and useful imagery!! I loaded the hi-res city imagery for the Vegas Strip and it was like I was visiting Vegas again!! I knew where I was at each stoplight, I knew each building even without reading the names off the maps...if it's so good I can do this (having visited Vegas several dozen times or so), imagine how helpful this is for someone who's never been to Vegas! Same with the color aerial views, it's amazing how helpful it is to actually "see" the marsh in front of me before stepping out of the car, lets me plan my route much easier! I haven't bee able to get to a certain part of the park I primarily hide caches in, but made it last week due to the ability to "see" the obstacles, saving me much time and energy!

 

I included the 60csx's cheaper price in my write-up, I know where you can get that unit for that price, it's posted in the sales section! Put some maps on it and you're around the price of the PN-40, this is what I based my whole write-up on! Unfortunately, the 60csx doesn't do as much as the OP listed and my write-up covered that as well! Unfortunately also, the sales price for the 60csx is hard to come by, you're either lucky to get it or you're camped out on the amazon site and wearing out the refresh button!

 

Regarding promised updates, I would not have purchased a Garmin either if they promised Mac support or paperless caching but didn't include it now. It has nothing to do with Garmin, or Delorme for that matter, as a company. It has everything to do with what I needed right now.

 

I believe the OP stated he wasn't overly worried about paperless and could work around Mac issues. I based my write-up on this as well. Many keep harping how it's a promise and act like it's just words....I find these statements misleading! As I said, they promised an update and I believe them! I seriously doubt the Delorme people would promise anything and then keep feeding us more info just to lie to us, their business would likely drop off dramatically should this be the case, I think they're smart enough to realize this! Truly, I followed the releases of the CO and OR, didn't they need updates to make them work as they should and were touted to??

 

Since most people buy so they won't have to upgrade yet again a year or less down the road, I feel knowing the whole picture in regards to features (both in place and future) is helpful! If you're buying a 60csx because you're not sure the PN-40 will deliver the upgrade, you're already falling behind as the DeLorme is hands down packed with more features than the 60csx NOW!! If, by comments that "maybe" or "if" the update comes, you're swayed to not buy the DeLorme and instead buy the CO or OR, you are being mislead, I want people to know this up front! The DeLorme will be paperless, it will deliver all and more than it already does, which is very nice indeed!

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I believe I was very friendly with my response, did it offend? I am merely pointing out there are other brands besides Garmin, I think some of you are so loyal, you forget this! Can you point out where I got on anyone's case?? I believe my comment (regarding screen size) was in response to the ridiculously misleading statement that the PN-40 has an "itty bitty" screen. I contend that statement was used more to bash than to help in a decision...off topic??

 

Yes, actually, a couple of your posts to other people who responded to the OP (myotis, in particular) came across as quite belittling, which is why I even got into this in the first place. Normally I don't get into these kinds of "who's got the best device" discussions with people on these forums because of this exact type of outcome, but I felt myotis needed a little defense especially since there are others who agree with his points. Regarding the above statement, I also feel the screen is quite tiny when compared to others, and I fail to see how that's misleading, since it's an accurate assessment of someone's perception of the device.

 

But, I am done bashing my head against this brick wall. I'm glad you're happy with your unit. Really!

 

Happy Caching

:D

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I believe I was very friendly with my response, did it offend? I am merely pointing out there are other brands besides Garmin, I think some of you are so loyal, you forget this! Can you point out where I got on anyone's case?? I believe my comment (regarding screen size) was in response to the ridiculously misleading statement that the PN-40 has an "itty bitty" screen. I contend that statement was used more to bash than to help in a decision...off topic??

 

Yes, actually, a couple of your posts to other people who responded to the OP (myotis, in particular) came across as quite belittling, which is why I even got into this in the first place. Normally I don't get into these kinds of "who's got the best device" discussions with people on these forums because of this exact type of outcome, but I felt myotis needed a little defense especially since there are others who agree with his points. Regarding the above statement, I also feel the screen is quite tiny when compared to others, and I fail to see how that's misleading, since it's an accurate assessment of someone's perception of the device.

 

But, I am done bashing my head against this brick wall. I'm glad you're happy with your unit. Really!

 

Happy Caching

;)

 

I believe it was myotis who was using the comment "itty bitty"?? Throw rude comments like this into a friendly comparisson and you're bound to be met with like comments!! ;) Myotis has done this in more than one topic as well!! Itty bitty? It's barely smaller than the 60csx! So, is the 60csx also itty bitty, or are we only using that to make the DeLorme look bad?? :D

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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Yes the 60CSX has an itty bitty screen too. That is why my recomendation was none of the above. The 60CSX is a great GPS, but it is yesterday's techonology. IMHO, while Garmins have issues (and I get irriated at Garmin quite a bit), the CO/OR are the best handheld GPS on the market.

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Speaking of zooming, with garmin's vector maps you can zoom way in and everything is nice and sharp. You cannot do that on a raster/bitmap.

While this is a true statement, I don't think it accurately reflects the situation on the PN-40. First off, the topo and routable road data on the PN-40 is vector, not raster. (There is something hybrid about the display mechanism, though.) Secondly, imagery on the PN-40 is "cut" at multiple zoom levels, so even raster data remains (reasonably) clear as you zoom in. The system is not perfect, but it is better than the above statement makes it sound.

 

Sorry for the injection of facts. Feel free to resume flaming now. :D

 

Am I correct the vector topo data is the 100K topo data which in many parts of the country (like whre we live) is generaly useless? Am I also correct the 24K maps are raster/bitmap? If the 24K is raster, particularly with the itty bitty screen and no shaded relief, it would seem to be difficult to tell if the slope is uphill or downhill. With the CO/OR big screen you can see more of the lay of the land and generally tell what is uphill and what is downhill. But if you need to know for sure, you can use shaded relief or you can clik on topo lines to see thier elevation (though many times you can see elevations of more than one topo line). So when you cannot tell for sure, it is easy to figure out. Is there an easy way to tell on the 40? My supecision is with a bit map you would have to move th map around until you can find more than one topo line or see how topo lines cross water. Having an itty bitty screen would seem to make this even harder.

 

I've seen the screen shots of all the various maps the 40 can show in comparision to a screen shot of a Garmin map for the same area (made by me) and I thought all of the 40 screen shots were totally uselss for the area except the 24K raster-which was no where near the quality of the Garmin map. IMHO one really good map is better than many types of lesser quality maps.

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Rockin Roddy stated :

 

If you tell me you can get a CO or OR with maps to route and all and under the $400 range, I would have to say CONGRATS!! Please share your outlet with others looking for a deal, it might just make their minds up for them! Personally, it wouldn't matter if the units were at or below the price as the PN-40, the PN-40 would still be my choice. Anyone not checking out the maps which allow one to actually "see" details of the land before leaving the car are missing out on some really cool and useful imagery!! I loaded the hi-res city imagery for the Vegas Strip and it was like I was visiting Vegas again!! I knew where I was at each stoplight, I knew each building even without reading the names off the maps...if it's so good I can do this (having visited Vegas several dozen times or so), imagine how helpful this is for someone who's never been to Vegas! Same with the color aerial views, it's amazing how helpful it is to actually "see" the marsh in front of me before stepping out of the car, lets me plan my route much easier! I haven't bee able to get to a certain part of the park I primarily hide caches in, but made it last week due to the ability to "see" the obstacles, saving me much time and energy!

 

The CO/OR costs more. If you cannot afford it, then you have to get something else. But if you can afford it, IMHO, they are the best choice. You can also see what is out there with a Garmin, but the garmin data is vector which is far superior to raster maps. There are also lots of FREE user created maps that are far superior to any of the Delorome maps. You can see a swamp on a Garmin too and the user created FREE Garmin maps use the most up to date and highest quality hydrology data available. Also knowing where the trails are is the most helpful thing in finding the way to a cache and there is lots more FREE trail data for Garmins. Also City Navigator has building shapes in vectors for most major cities.

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Rockin Roddy stated :

 

If you tell me you can get a CO or OR with maps to route and all and under the $400 range, I would have to say CONGRATS!! Please share your outlet with others looking for a deal, it might just make their minds up for them! Personally, it wouldn't matter if the units were at or below the price as the PN-40, the PN-40 would still be my choice. Anyone not checking out the maps which allow one to actually "see" details of the land before leaving the car are missing out on some really cool and useful imagery!! I loaded the hi-res city imagery for the Vegas Strip and it was like I was visiting Vegas again!! I knew where I was at each stoplight, I knew each building even without reading the names off the maps...if it's so good I can do this (having visited Vegas several dozen times or so), imagine how helpful this is for someone who's never been to Vegas! Same with the color aerial views, it's amazing how helpful it is to actually "see" the marsh in front of me before stepping out of the car, lets me plan my route much easier! I haven't bee able to get to a certain part of the park I primarily hide caches in, but made it last week due to the ability to "see" the obstacles, saving me much time and energy!

 

The CO/OR costs more. If you cannot afford it, then you have to get something else. But if you can afford it, IMHO, they are the best choice. You can also see what is out there with a Garmin, but the garmin data is vector which is far superior to raster maps. There are also lots of FREE user created maps that are far superior to any of the Delorome maps. You can see a swamp on a Garmin too and the user created FREE Garmin maps use the most up to date and highest quality hydrology data available. Also knowing where the trails are is the most helpful thing in finding the way to a cache and there is lots more FREE trail data for Garmins. Also City Navigator has building shapes in vectors for most major cities.

 

Aerial imagery trumps shapes any day.

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DeLorme used quite a few beta testers prior to the public release of their PN-20 & PN-40. Which is good to try to work out the bugs before the units go public. Garmin should take heed. The majority of the original beta testers also complained about the screen size of PN-xx units. It is well documented in older threads here on the Groundspeak Forum and in GPSPassion. In the past, some of the beta testers became quite passionate about the PN-xx units, especially the PN-40 when being compared to other brands. I don't blame them ("you can't bite the hand that feeds you") for supporting a device that they got to test before it ever went public. It even got so bad by some beta testers that DeLorme on more than 1 occassion had to verbally reprimand some or their beta testers. See below quote by DeLorme.

 

QUOTE(bikercr @ Nov 14 2008, 03:25 PM) post_snapback.gif

ATTENTION ALL DELORME PN-20 AND PN-40 BETA TESTERS:

 

Please stop lurking on these boards, anxiously countering any negative feedback or constructive criticism of our products. The quality of our products will speak for itself. You guys should just "get a life".

 

Thank you.

 

The Delorme management team :D

 

The entire 2 page thread, "DeLorme PN-40 Screen Size: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...207656&st=0 is quite amusing when read in its entirety and compared to this thread. Thank goodness we live in a capitalistic society where we have the freedom to choose what we want.

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DeLorme used quite a few beta testers prior to the public release of their PN-20 & PN-40. Which is good to try to work out the bugs before the units go public. Garmin should take heed. The majority of the original beta testers also complained about the screen size of PN-xx units. It is well documented in older threads here on the Groundspeak Forum and in GPSPassion. In the past, some of the beta testers became quite passionate about the PN-xx units, especially the PN-40 when being compared to other brands. I don't blame them ("you can't bite the hand that feeds you") for supporting a device that they got to test before it ever went public. It even got so bad by some beta testers that DeLorme on more than 1 occassion had to verbally reprimand some or their beta testers. See below quote by DeLorme.

 

QUOTE(bikercr @ Nov 14 2008, 03:25 PM) post_snapback.gif

ATTENTION ALL DELORME PN-20 AND PN-40 BETA TESTERS:

 

Please stop lurking on these boards, anxiously countering any negative feedback or constructive criticism of our products. The quality of our products will speak for itself. You guys should just "get a life".

 

Thank you.

 

The Delorme management team :D

 

The entire 2 page thread, "DeLorme PN-40 Screen Size: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...207656&st=0 is quite amusing when read in its entirety and compared to this thread. Thank goodness we live in a capitalistic society where we have the freedom to choose what we want.

 

 

Well, being a consumer, I can only speak to my preference. Would I be tickled pink if the screen were bigger? You bet! Am I sorry I bought the "itty bitty" screen?? NOPE!

 

All the "stuff" myotis posted up above is doable by DeLorme as well, but, just like with the Garmins, it is work to do it. What the Garmins can't do is what I posted....aerial imagery, hi-res city imagery etc....or at least I haven't seen this done. Actually "seeing" the marsh (a "snapshot" picture, not contours and shades) does trump shades and greatly improves the visual of the area!

 

What some of us are trying to point out is that the features of the unit MORE than make up for the size of the screen....IMHO!

 

color added to separate comments, mine is the blue.

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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Another one not sure what the topic is??

 

On a side note....if you're referring to me when you state about the DeLorme special features and buying them, I own a DeLorme PN-40 and LOVE IT!! Also, Garmin-bashing?? Really?? Maybe it's more like letting people know there ARE other products than the "holy Garmin". You guys come in here and preach Garmin even when you don't know the topic for crying out loud. And all use the same argument...screen is too small. Then you bash DeLorme by making it sound like they won't deliver on the promised update! Just who is bashing whom? I truly get the feeling some feel "threatened" by the DeLorme and feel they need to defend Garmin at all costs....again, we're not rooting for our favorite sports teams.

 

The topic is PN-40s vs 60CSx, and since the OP said he'd consider other units, my post addressed exactly that.

 

Also, the OP requested friendly responses. Are you on topic in this regard? You get very defensive when some folks disagree with the "holy Delorme" even when it doesn't provide some of the features the OP requested.

 

And yes, I know the topic, having looked at every unit described thus far in this thread when I was deciding on a purchase. I am simply describing to the OP the reasons I did not buy the unit IN THE TOPIC and why I felt some others might be a better choice for him to fit his criteria.

 

Regarding promised updates, I would not have purchased a Garmin either if they promised Mac support or paperless caching but didn't include it now. It has nothing to do with Garmin, or Delorme for that matter, as a company. It has everything to do with what I needed right now.

 

As far as price, there are people who have been able to purchase a 60CSx for $159-$229 recently on Amazon. I paid less than $350 for my Oregon including all the maps that are currently on it. List price means nothing.

 

I'm really glad you're happy with your Delorme, and if the OP decides it's the unit for him, happy trails! But what works for you doesn't necessarily work for everyone, and getting OFF TOPIC by getting on someone's case because they prefer a larger screen really isn't helpful to anyone, especially when this is a feature that matters to some people.

 

BlueDamsel

 

I believe I was very friendly with my response, did it offend? I am merely pointing out there are other brands besides Garmin, I think some of you are so loyal, you forget this! Can you point out where I got on anyone's case?? I believe my comment (regarding screen size) was in response to the ridiculously misleading statement that the PN-40 has an "itty bitty" screen. I contend that statement was used more to bash than to help in a decision...off topic??

 

If you tell me you can get a CO or OR with maps to route and all and under the $400 range, I would have to say CONGRATS!! Please share your outlet with others looking for a deal, it might just make their minds up for them! Personally, it wouldn't matter if the units were at or below the price as the PN-40, the PN-40 would still be my choice. Anyone not checking out the maps which allow one to actually "see" details of the land before leaving the car are missing out on some really cool and useful imagery!! I loaded the hi-res city imagery for the Vegas Strip and it was like I was visiting Vegas again!! I knew where I was at each stoplight, I knew each building even without reading the names off the maps...if it's so good I can do this (having visited Vegas several dozen times or so), imagine how helpful this is for someone who's never been to Vegas! Same with the color aerial views, it's amazing how helpful it is to actually "see" the marsh in front of me before stepping out of the car, lets me plan my route much easier! I haven't bee able to get to a certain part of the park I primarily hide caches in, but made it last week due to the ability to "see" the obstacles, saving me much time and energy!

 

I included the 60csx's cheaper price in my write-up, I know where you can get that unit for that price, it's posted in the sales section! Put some maps on it and you're around the price of the PN-40, this is what I based my whole write-up on! Unfortunately, the 60csx doesn't do as much as the OP listed and my write-up covered that as well! Unfortunately also, the sales price for the 60csx is hard to come by, you're either lucky to get it or you're camped out on the amazon site and wearing out the refresh button!

 

Regarding promised updates, I would not have purchased a Garmin either if they promised Mac support or paperless caching but didn't include it now. It has nothing to do with Garmin, or Delorme for that matter, as a company. It has everything to do with what I needed right now.

 

I believe the OP stated he wasn't overly worried about paperless and could work around Mac issues. I based my write-up on this as well. Many keep harping how it's a promise and act like it's just words....I find these statements misleading! As I said, they promised an update and I believe them! I seriously doubt the Delorme people would promise anything and then keep feeding us more info just to lie to us, their business would likely drop off dramatically should this be the case, I think they're smart enough to realize this! Truly, I followed the releases of the CO and OR, didn't they need updates to make them work as they should and were touted to??

 

Since most people buy so they won't have to upgrade yet again a year or less down the road, I feel knowing the whole picture in regards to features (both in place and future) is helpful! If you're buying a 60csx because you're not sure the PN-40 will deliver the upgrade, you're already falling behind as the DeLorme is hands down packed with more features than the 60csx NOW!! If, by comments that "maybe" or "if" the update comes, you're swayed to not buy the DeLorme and instead buy the CO or OR, you are being mislead, I want people to know this up front! The DeLorme will be paperless, it will deliver all and more than it already does, which is very nice indeed!

 

You'll need to remember these suspicions regarding updates are from personal experience from Garmin to Garmin users. ;) At least Magellan never made that promise, and they delivered in spades (or was it shinola?). :D

 

What I enjoy from DeLorme is they don't start talking about it until they start working on it. The marketing team has been very good at not delivering bankrupt promises but has indicated each time there is an issue, they will speak with their engineering department and will let us know what they can when they can.

Edited by TotemLake
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To be fair, here's the Garmin 400t w/3D as has been mentioned here by others, price is $510 at amazon.com.

 

Garmin 400t w/3D

 

Here's the Garmin 60Csx also on amazon.com for $295 (but you might sometimes find it for $160 if you're lucky).

 

Garmin 60CSx

 

Here's the DeLorme PN-40 also on sale at amazon.com for $320.

 

DeLorme PN-40

 

I urge the OP to read the entire page of each link, especially, read the reviews near the bottom and check out all the pics etc. I'll stop arguing with everyone right here and simply allow you to make your own choice!

 

Good luck!

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Not to be crass, but quite honestly, as one who can afford pretty much any GPS I want, I purchased a PN-40. It's not perfect but it's a huge advancement over anything else that is currently available. Would I like a bigger screen? Sure, but it's not a impediment to successful use of the device. I want more horsepower in my car too, big deal.

 

I'm not sure why you think vector data is better than raster data but the USGS maps are far better than any topo maps offered by DeLorme or Garmin. If the raster files are properly scaled and include multiple resolution levels (zoom levels) then there is no disadvantage. The PN-40 is fast enough that there are no redraw or scrolling issues and you can overlay data on the raster files.

 

You obviously haven't used a PN-40 (or Goggle Maps/Earth for that matter) if you think the best way to navigate to something is with a map. I'll take aerial imagery with overlaid map data any time over a simple map.

 

It sounds like you're a little too invested in your Garmin GPS to form an objective opinion.

 

The CO/OR costs more. If you cannot afford it, then you have to get something else. But if you can afford it, IMHO, they are the best choice. You can also see what is out there with a Garmin, but the garmin data is vector which is far superior to raster maps. There are also lots of FREE user created maps that are far superior to any of the Delorome maps. You can see a swamp on a Garmin too and the user created FREE Garmin maps use the most up to date and highest quality hydrology data available. Also knowing where the trails are is the most helpful thing in finding the way to a cache and there is lots more FREE trail data for Garmins. Also City Navigator has building shapes in vectors for most major cities.

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You'll need to get your facts straight. That quote is NOT from DeLorme management team. It was a sarcastic reply from a Garmin poster.

 

Sometimes in business you need to "Stir The Pot" - step back - see who and what boils to the surface and most of all listen. You all have most definitely full filled my objective.

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You'll need to get your facts straight. That quote is NOT from DeLorme management team. It was a sarcastic reply from a Garmin poster.

 

Sometimes in business you need to "Stir The Pot" - step back - see who and what boils to the surface and most of all listen. You all have most definitely full filled my objective.

Well then, you were just stirring the pot and it had nothing to do with the business at hand.

 

I'm also going to question your intentional misrepresentation.

Edited by TotemLake
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You'll need to get your facts straight. That quote is NOT from DeLorme management team. It was a sarcastic reply from a Garmin poster.

 

Sometimes in business you need to "Stir The Pot" - step back - see who and what boils to the surface and most of all listen. You all have most definitely full filled my objective.

 

All I learned was that you and your posts are to be ignored and basically anything you do post can be considered fodder.

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Am I correct the vector topo data is the 100K topo data which in many parts of the country (like whre we live) is generaly useless? Am I also correct the 24K maps are raster/bitmap? If the 24K is raster, particularly with the itty bitty screen and no shaded relief, it would seem to be difficult to tell if the slope is uphill or downhill. With the CO/OR big screen you can see more of the lay of the land and generally tell what is uphill and what is downhill. But if you need to know for sure, you can use shaded relief or you can clik on topo lines to see thier elevation (though many times you can see elevations of more than one topo line). So when you cannot tell for sure, it is easy to figure out. Is there an easy way to tell on the 40? My supecision is with a bit map you would have to move th map around until you can find more than one topo line or see how topo lines cross water. Having an itty bitty screen would seem to make this even harder.

 

I've seen the screen shots of all the various maps the 40 can show in comparision to a screen shot of a Garmin map for the same area (made by me) and I thought all of the 40 screen shots were totally uselss for the area except the 24K raster-which was no where near the quality of the Garmin map. IMHO one really good map is better than many types of lesser quality maps.

Yes, the vector topo data on the PN-40 is 1:100K. Although I have not done any kind of systematic comparison, it appears to be comparable to what I get with the built-in maps on my CO 400t. If you "cut" the vector topo maps yourself, I understand that it is also possible to include more contour detail. I haven't tried this myself, so I am not sure how helpful it will be.

 

Yes, the 1:24K topos are raster images. Have not personally experienced any trouble telling up from down. But I usually don't bother to cut the raster topos at the very highest zoom levels -- mostly because topo maps just aren't very useful (to me, anyhow) when looking at a very localized area. And at very, very high zoom levels (what Garmin would consider overzoom, I think), the raster topos do pixelate. You can, however, overlay the vector data on top of the raster data and view elevations of the vector contour lines. Can be somewhat difficult to see the vector lines, though, since they tend to overlay the raster lines and are similarly colored.

 

Bottom line is that I think it's a matter of what's important to you. For me, the advantages of the various kinds of imagery (both aerial photos and the USGS topos) outweigh other potential disadvantages. And, while a bigger screen might be nice, I can honestly say that I don't find the current screen size to be a problem.

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DeLorme used quite a few beta testers prior to the public release of their PN-20 & PN-40. Which is good to try to work out the bugs before the units go public. Garmin should take heed. The majority of the original beta testers also complained about the screen size of PN-xx units. It is well documented in older threads here on the Groundspeak Forum and in GPSPassion. In the past, some of the beta testers became quite passionate about the PN-xx units, especially the PN-40 when being compared to other brands. I don't blame them ("you can't bite the hand that feeds you") for supporting a device that they got to test before it ever went public. It even got so bad by some beta testers that DeLorme on more than 1 occassion had to verbally reprimand some or their beta testers. See below quote by DeLorme.

 

QUOTE(bikercr @ Nov 14 2008, 03:25 PM) post_snapback.gif

ATTENTION ALL DELORME PN-20 AND PN-40 BETA TESTERS:

 

Please stop lurking on these boards, anxiously countering any negative feedback or constructive criticism of our products. The quality of our products will speak for itself. You guys should just "get a life".

 

Thank you.

 

The Delorme management team :(

 

The entire 2 page thread, "DeLorme PN-40 Screen Size: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...207656&st=0 is quite amusing when read in its entirety and compared to this thread. Thank goodness we live in a capitalistic society where we have the freedom to choose what we want.

Yes, this was a total lie.

 

I think that such is a backward compliment in itself when DeLorme detractors must resort to lies.

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Rockin Roddy:

 

Well, being a consumer, I can only speak to my preference. Would I be tickled pink if the screen were bigger? You bet! Am I sorry I bought the "itty bitty" screen?? NOPE!

 

All the "stuff" myotis posted up above is doable by DeLorme as well, but, just like with the Garmins, it is work to do it. What the Garmins can't do is what I posted....aerial imagery, hi-res city imagery etc....or at least I haven't seen this done. Actually "seeing" the marsh (a "snapshot" picture, not contours and shades) does trump shades and greatly improves the visual of the area!

 

What some of us are trying to point out is that the features of the unit MORE than make up for the size of the screen....IMHO!

 

You are right-it is a preference (and cost). But lets make sure we accuratly compare the products.

 

Speaking of marshes, many of them are seasonal. many water features have different levels. With an aerial you do not know if the picture is the normal level. I also do not see how you could tell a marsh from open water in a photo as the issue is how deep the water is.

 

If the standard is "doable" what you say Garmin's cannot do, they can in fact. Mapwell and someone elese makes a program that will load aerial imagery, USGS 24K maps, etc. Grant it, it is not as easy as the Delorme, but it is definatly reasonably doable. I have never used it as I have never had a desire for those kinds of maps since the maps for Garmin are far superior. The CO/OR also have built in picture viewers. So I can save USGS 24K maps in ExpertGps, aerial photos in Google Earth, or any graphic map to my CO and view it. While it is not georeferenced (i.e, it does not show where you are at on the map) you can view a map easily if there would be a need.

 

Others have disputued what you say is doable in the 40. So can you clairify and show some screen shots if it is actually doable? Others have said the Deloromes will not show relief shading. Can you show a screen shot? While some have been able to take trail files and import them into the Delorome, no one has demostrated the ability to create 24K (or better) quality VECTOR topo lines and hydrology. Are you sayinf this is doable? If so, how hard is it to get the USGS data into 24K vector/hydrology into the Delorome? Can you show a screen shot?

 

Another major mapping advantage for Garmin is there are lots of users (like me http://webpages.charter.net/jbensman/Maps.htm ) who make FREE extremly high quality (much higher quality than 24K-the topo data is 9 times the resolution of what was used to create the 24K USGS topos) vector maps for Garmin. A large portion of the country is covered by these FREE maps and users are working on more areas. Garmin is also in the process of doing the entire country is 24K VECTOR maps. While it takes some time (and processing power) to create the maps, it is real simple to use them.

 

OpenTrackRacer:

 

I'm not sure why you think vector data is better than raster data but the USGS maps are far better than any topo maps offered by DeLorme or Garmin. If the raster files are properly scaled and include multiple resolution levels (zoom levels) then there is no disadvantage. The PN-40 is fast enough that there are no redraw or scrolling issues and you can overlay data on the raster files.

 

As mentioned above, both Garmin and users are in the process of covering the entire country in 24K or better quality VECTOR maps.

 

Let's count the way these maps (particularly the FREE user created Vector maps) are better than raster maps. Vectors have smaller file sizes, load faster, and do not pixulate when you zoom way in. Some of the USGS maps the topo lines are so close they are hard to differenate. Vectors do not have this problem as you can zoom way in. What does a USGS 24K map look like zoomed in to 20 or 100 feet on the Delorome? They are crystal clear in a vector map. In a vector map you can click on anything like a topo line, stream, or POI and it will tell you what it is. With the itty bitty screen you would have to zoom around on the map somewhere where the feature is identied. With vectors it is real easy to figure out the contour interval-surely the small screen makes it even harder to find where a topo line's elevation is identified. With a vector you can figure out how much you have to climb with a couple of clicks. Since they are vector, all the features are searchable via the find command. The maps are made from 1/3 arc second elevation data which has 9 times the resolution of the data used to create the 24K USGS maps (that means they are 9 times more accuraate and can have small contour intervals). The hydrology is also more up to mdate than what is on the 24K USGS maps.

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Can someone please repeat the question?

 

Please allow me to attempt just that. Also, I volunteer to include from a number of related, PN-40 vs. Garmin, threads.

 

Looking at these, I see a majority of the respondents as falling into two groups: G only and G & PN.

 

The G only group may be characterized as owners of Garmin handheld GPSrs, but primarily the 60CSx, Colorado and Oregon models.

However, those in this group have never claimed to have actually held a PN-40 in their hands nor have they performed side-by-side tests.

Consequently, the characterizations of the PN-40 are comprised of hearsay and information gleaned from perusal of specs and marketing materials.

1. These respondents are very proud of their devices, and they should be as they are fine devices and have served them well. They were the gold standard for handheld GPS units for quite a while.

2. They are unanimous in their recommendations for the Garmin units without exception.

3. Those recommendations are quite understandable as they have had acceptably good performance from their units and have had no hands-on experience, neither positive nor negative, of course, with a PN-40.

4. (I, too, would be reluctant to positively endorse an item with which I'd had no hands-on experience.)

 

The G & PN group may be characterized as owners of Garmin handheld GPSrs and are also early adopters of the PN-40.

As such, those in this group have actually, in addition to their Garmin units, held a PN-40 in their hands and have related side-by-side experiences.

Consequently, their characterizations of the PN-40 are based on real-life, holding the handheld usage as opposed to hearsay and information gleaned from perusal of specs and marketing materials.

1. These respondents report positively of both brands of devices, and they should be as they are all fine devices.

2. However, when I performed a survey of their responses and took an informal tally, I noticed an overwhelming preference for the PN-40 over the Garmin models.

3. I make special note that many users of both commented on the comparative screen characteristic of the PNs, but felt that the other aspects were substantially superior such that the screen attribute was overshadowed and the designation of best belonged to the PNs.

 

Now, is it fair of me to ask, the recommendations of which group has the greater credibility:

1. Those who recommend a Garmin model, but have never touched a PN-40, or

2. Those who recommend the PN-40 after having used both?

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I had similar criteria to the original poster. I was moving from an Magellan eXplorist 500 and wanted a GPSr I could use for geocaching and simple auto-routing for under $350. I use GSAK and carry a PDA with me but was hoping to be able to do some paperless caching without having to juggle a GPSr, a PDA, reading glasses and a pen. :(

 

From what I saw the Garmin Oregon 400t was out of my price range and I had some concerns about the screen in sunlight, I was also concerned about having to shell out additional $ for more maps although I didn't investigate this carefully as the pricepoint was already too high out of the box for me.

 

I looked at the Garmin 60csx and the DeLorme PN-40. I have friends that swear by the 60csx so that was my first choice but they suggested I get City Navigator which would add another $100 to the price and push me up close to $400. The 60csx had a good and tested chip and that appealed to me. The PN-40 is much newer but DeLorme seems to be responsive and I felt like there was a good chance they would continue to improve the PN-40 (as the 60csx has been improved over time). Mac support wasn't an issue for me. The all-you-can-eat map subscription of $30 for the PN-40 was attractive to me because I think the different types of maps provide different answers depending upon the question (how to avoid excessive bushwhacking for example :P )

 

I lurked on the DeLorme forums for awhile and after seeing screen shots of the new geocaching features and reading posts by the DeLorme support team, I decided to take a leap of faith and get the PN-40. I'm quite happy with it so far but I've only had it a couple of weeks. I have cached with it and it seems more accurate to me than the eXplorist 500.

 

To be honest, I don't believe that there is a perfect GPSr out there for under $500, you have to decide which features are important to you, how much you want to spend, look at the trade-offs and go from there.

 

As you can tell from the impassioned responses people feel strongly about their preferences. :laughing:

 

Good luck!

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To be honest, I don't believe that there is a perfect GPSr out there for under $500, you have to decide which features are important to you, how much you want to spend, look at the trade-offs and go from there.

 

Good luck!

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I do actually own non-GPS DeLorme products and think they are a good company, but since there isn't Mac support for DeLorme's GPS units, they basically have about the same use as a doorstop for me, which is why I picked the unit I did. No, mine's not perfect - none are - but it does the job and it fit my criteria the best.

 

Hope you have fun with your new GPS. Go find lots of caches! :(

BlueDamsel

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I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I do actually own non-GPS DeLorme products and think they are a good company, but since there isn't Mac support for DeLorme's GPS units, they basically have about the same use as a doorstop for me, which is why I picked the unit I did. No, mine's not perfect - none are - but it does the job and it fit my criteria the best.

 

Hope you have fun with your new GPS. Go find lots of caches! :(

BlueDamsel

I have a Mac, I have a PN-40, please share w/me what I'm missing!

 

The sometimes sarcastic

Norm

Edited by RRLover
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Goodness. I started playing with a Treo 800W, moved to a Colorado 400T, replaced the Treo 800W with a Touch Pro, got tired of the Colorado 400T wheel and also experienced accuracy problems (not severe), read about the PN-40, purchased the PN-40, got rid of the Colorado 400T.

 

What I miss with the Colorado: screen size, ease of use. What I do not miss: the wheel.

 

What I like about the PN-40: accuracy. What I HATE about the PN-40: the software had me hitting my head against the wall for a few days until one day it just dawned on me...

 

I thought about the Oregon series; however, touch screens are sensitive animals...

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Can someone please repeat the question?

 

Please allow me to attempt just that. Also, I volunteer to include from a number of related, PN-40 vs. Garmin, threads.

 

Looking at these, I see a majority of the respondents as falling into two groups: G only and G & PN.

 

The G only group may be characterized as owners of Garmin handheld GPSrs, but primarily the 60CSx, Colorado and Oregon models.

However, those in this group have never claimed to have actually held a PN-40 in their hands nor have they performed side-by-side tests.

Consequently, the characterizations of the PN-40 are comprised of hearsay and information gleaned from perusal of specs and marketing materials.

1. These respondents are very proud of their devices, and they should be as they are fine devices and have served them well. They were the gold standard for handheld GPS units for quite a while.

2. They are unanimous in their recommendations for the Garmin units without exception.

3. Those recommendations are quite understandable as they have had acceptably good performance from their units and have had no hands-on experience, neither positive nor negative, of course, with a PN-40.

4. (I, too, would be reluctant to positively endorse an item with which I'd had no hands-on experience.)

 

The G & PN group may be characterized as owners of Garmin handheld GPSrs and are also early adopters of the PN-40.

As such, those in this group have actually, in addition to their Garmin units, held a PN-40 in their hands and have related side-by-side experiences.

Consequently, their characterizations of the PN-40 are based on real-life, holding the handheld usage as opposed to hearsay and information gleaned from perusal of specs and marketing materials.

1. These respondents report positively of both brands of devices, and they should be as they are all fine devices.

2. However, when I performed a survey of their responses and took an informal tally, I noticed an overwhelming preference for the PN-40 over the Garmin models.

3. I make special note that many users of both commented on the comparative screen characteristic of the PNs, but felt that the other aspects were substantially superior such that the screen attribute was overshadowed and the designation of best belonged to the PNs.

 

Now, is it fair of me to ask, the recommendations of which group has the greater credibility:

1. Those who recommend a Garmin model, but have never touched a PN-40, or

2. Those who recommend the PN-40 after having used both?

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts. Some Delorome proponents need to remember that. Your post is a good example. Instead of addressing reality, you act like there are not people like me who have had the PN 40 in their hands and compared it to Garmins and found the CO/OR far superior (the 60CSX is a much closer call). I have a friend who would not listen to me and got the PN-40 only to return it to get an OR. If you have used a low resolution screen (I have used a lot of them, my first map GPS had an even smaller B&W screen), you do not need to hold the Delorome in your hand to know that small screen is a major disadvantage or you can just look at the differences in the screen shots of the Delorome & Garmin of the same spot.

 

Some of these Delorome users misrepresent what the Delorome and Garmin do. Some also misrepresnt the quality of the various maps. If you only went by the topo maps that come with the 400T, they are not very good. But it is disingenuous to ignore all the FREE extremely high quality maps for the Garmin. No one yet has even demonstrated a 24K vector map the quality of available for free for Garmins can even be made for the 40. At least everything that can be loaded into the 40 is possible to load in a Garmin.

 

No GPS is perfect. The CO/OR and Garmin all have problems, but if you can afford them they are the best bet.

 

After over a decade of cursing itty bitty screens, IMHO, the screen size of the OR/CO is the biggest advantage over the Deloromes and 60CSX. Grant it the 40 and 60CSX;s screen is easier to see, but there is no problem seeing the screen in the CO with the shaded relief turned off. Most of the people who complained about the CO's readability did not turn off the shaded relief.

 

Yes the Delorome wins on the compass, but I rarely use it since my CO points correctly as long as I am moving. I use the compass once a month.

 

While Delorome promises paperless caching, the CO/OR have it now and it works great (other than a problem with multis where you need to project or change the final). I've been told Delorome does not support GSAK either - that is a huge deal as I use GSAK for corrected coordinates of solved puzzles and user notes. CO/OR also has field notes which saves all kind of time logging caches. Then there is also the screen size, with a bigger screen it is easier to do paperless caching. So Garmin is the clear winner here.

 

Maps: It seems like the road maps are similar quality. But from comments Delorome users it sounds like the Garmin handles routing better. All I can say is the CO does an real good job particularly with its profile feature. NOTE: There are some great FREE Garmin road maps for the entire country-only problem is they are not routable. I will give Delorome the advantage on the aerial/sat photos, but you can use them in Garmin. If they were as easy with the garmin as they are with Delorome I can think of a few situations where they could be useful. However around here off road is mostly in trees or a field in a park. Photos are useless for that. I grew up with 24K topos, so to me high quality topos is most important for off road use. If the only thing available for the Garmin was the 100K built in maps I would agree the Delorome's 24K raster maps would be an advantage. But that is not the case. The FREE Vector 24K (or better maps) for the Garmin are far superior to the Delorome's 24K rasters. However, the entire country is not yet done in the free vector maps, but people are working on it. Garmin has shaded relief. So I would give the Garmin the overall advantage on mapping particulalry considering all the free maps and the abilitly to load anthing the Delorme can.

 

I think these are the most important differences. But I also believe there are many addition advantages of the CO/OR. Garmins do Wherigo including whereI go caches, does Delorome? Garmins can share wirelessly, can Deloromes? Garmin's have 3d View, does Delorome? Does the Delorome have a page that shows a graph of your elevation change? A baramoter that shows the trend? An alarm clock? Calculator? Calander? Stop watch? Area calculation? Image viewer? Does it have profiles?

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While Delorome promises paperless caching, the CO/OR have it now and it works great (other than a problem with multis where you need to project or change the final). I've been told Delorome does not support GSAK either - that is a huge deal as I use GSAK for corrected coordinates of solved puzzles and user notes.

Much as I hate to extend this thread (which has long outlived its usefullness)... Both the CO and the PN-40 have problems with multis, but the problems are different. On the CO, I can't move the cache to represent the next stage -- which is how some folks like to do it. But at least I can project the waypoint by entering a bearing and distance (in my choice of units). On the PN-40, the cache is a waypoint and I can move it. Unfortunately, I have to do the projection graphically on the map. Not as accurate as I'd like, and downright impossible for those multis which involve a long distance projection followed by some arcane step like finding the intersection of two projected lines... Advantage CO there.

 

This GSAK assertion is backwards. It's not that the PN-40 does not support GSAK, it's that GSAK does not support the PN-40. If I recall correctly, somebody is working on that. Meantime, export from GSAK in .gpx, import into T7 (don't start, now :( -- nobody likes it but we all live with it), and export to the PN-40.

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I asked before but I'm not sure I saw an answer, so I'll ask again.

 

If I have a pn-40, can I say, guide me to the nearest "taco bell", or would I have to input an address?

 

A little light on the road navigation would be great.

 

Thanks,

dc

 

The PN40 does have business POIs that you can route to. You can search by name or by distance. There would be no need to use the address. You are also able to add routable and searchable POIs as a draw layer for any POI that the PN40 doesn't already have.

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On the PN-40, the cache is a waypoint and I can move it. Unfortunately, I have to do the projection graphically on the map. Not as accurate as I'd like, and downright impossible for those multis which involve a long distance projection followed by some arcane step like finding the intersection of two projected lines...

 

Maybe I''ve misunderstood something here...for multi's I've simply entered the new/revised coordinates into the waypoint entry on my PN-40, and sway we go - routing either direct or road. No need to project it on the map.

 

Now, if you are tlaking about ONLY those multis/puzzles/etc where you need to project new coords given a distance and bearing, then your scenario is correct. However, I took the original note ("where you need to project or change the final") to refer to that much broader segment of the multi-cache population that simply requires you to re-enter teh revised coords...which, as the earlier post noted, is not an option for CO/OR.

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On the PN-40, the cache is a waypoint and I can move it. Unfortunately, I have to do the projection graphically on the map. Not as accurate as I'd like, and downright impossible for those multis which involve a long distance projection followed by some arcane step like finding the intersection of two projected lines...

 

Maybe I''ve misunderstood something here...for multi's I've simply entered the new/revised coordinates into the waypoint entry on my PN-40, and sway we go - routing either direct or road. No need to project it on the map.

 

Now, if you are tlaking about ONLY those multis/puzzles/etc where you need to project new coords given a distance and bearing, then your scenario is correct. However, I took the original note ("where you need to project or change the final") to refer to that much broader segment of the multi-cache population that simply requires you to re-enter teh revised coords...which, as the earlier post noted, is not an option for CO/OR.

Sorry, this is confusion between the original statement and my response. It's the original statement that included the words "project or change the final". My response only applies to situations where actual projection is needed. Clearly we can just change the coordinates if we're given new coordinates (as opposed to distance and bearing).

 

My real point was two-fold -- shortcomings in the CO with regard to changing the cache coordinates in any way (you just can't) vs. shortcomings in the PN-40 with regard to projection (even though you can change the cache coordinates). Removing foot from mouth now...

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I need an upgrade. I have figured out that I need a 60csx or a pn-40. however I'm not out to other options.

 

I'm looking for:

 

-total price under $400

-accurate in woods

-good on the road

-good for taking with me flying. (I'm a pilot, airport poi?)

-MAC support would be wonderful, but I can use bootcamp

 

Paperless is nice, but I can use GSAK if I need to.

I'm looking forward to each of your opinions. Please just keep them all friendly. =)

 

Thanks!

Dustin Corey

If you're planning on hiking or driving back to the airport after putting your plane down or swimming to shore after ditching either will do the job. Road maps and NOAA blue charts are available for both. But as you know, things are a little different in the air. As an AOPA member, I'd look into an aviation unit that you could also be used on the ground. An example is a GPSMAP 96/96C. Having a HSI page as well as a Jeppesen database with VOR's, intersections, NDB's, ARTCC's, etc. and a U.S. database of obstacles, airspace classes, airports and approaches is better any day than POI's that were meant to be driven or hiked to. Shop around, and you should be able to find something in your price range. Also, you might want to check with other pilots and not passengers for recommendations. Check with Sporty's.

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I asked before but I'm not sure I saw an answer, so I'll ask again.

 

If I have a pn-40, can I say, guide me to the nearest "taco bell", or would I have to input an address?

 

A little light on the road navigation would be great.

 

Thanks,

dc

I'm sorry, I should have provided an answer at the first opportunity.

 

However, I would prefer to answer with a slight modification to the question.

 

If you notice from my posts above, I prefer to make well-considered and precise answers regarding

the capabilities of the subject devices that can easily be verified and corroborated by others with the same device.

 

With that statement of my ground rules and having held my PN-40 in my hands:

1. The Find function on my PN-40 will list the Taco Bell nearest my house.

2. The Category - POIs - Restaurants was searched and a list of all restaurants in the POI database was displayed.

The map display at the time was centered about my residence.

3. I did not search using an address, neither mine nor that of the Taco Bell.

4. Several "clicks" provided me with road guidance to the nearest Taco Bell.

The guidance consists of a highlghted map, a table of turn sequences with steet names, turn directions, mileage to next turn, time estimates and beep guidance while driving.

 

Please note that I have made this response as totally objective as possible with yes -no, true - false type statements.

I strove to make it devoid of subjective, good - bad, characterizations.

I decline from making negative characterizations regarding devices that I have never touched or held in my hands.

Edited by Team CowboyPapa
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I need an upgrade. I have figured out that I need a 60csx or a pn-40. however I'm not out to other options.

 

I'm looking for:

 

-total price under $400

-accurate in woods

-good on the road

-good for taking with me flying. (I'm a pilot, airport poi?)

-MAC support would be wonderful, but I can use bootcamp

 

Paperless is nice, but I can use GSAK if I need to.

I'm looking forward to each of your opinions. Please just keep them all friendly. =)

 

Thanks!

Dustin Corey

If you're planning on hiking or driving back to the airport after putting your plane down or swimming to shore after ditching either will do the job. Road maps and NOAA blue charts are available for both. But as you know, things are a little different in the air. As an AOPA member, I'd look into an aviation unit that you could also be used on the ground. An example is a GPSMAP 96/96C. Having a HSI page as well as a Jeppesen database with VOR's, intersections, NDB's, ARTCC's, etc. and a U.S. database of obstacles, airspace classes, airports and approaches is better any day than POI's that were meant to be driven or hiked to. Shop around, and you should be able to find something in your price range. Also, you might want to check with other pilots and not passengers for recommendations. Check with Sporty's.

 

I am not a piliot so I am not sure what any of that stuff means, but check out: http://www.poi-factory.com/taxonomy/term/34 They sound like what you are talking about and can be easily loaded into a Garmin as a Custom POI (which can be seperated into various categories).

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I need an upgrade. I have figured out that I need a 60csx or a pn-40. however I'm not out to other options.

 

I'm looking for:

 

-total price under $400

-accurate in woods

-good on the road

-good for taking with me flying. (I'm a pilot, airport poi?)

-MAC support would be wonderful, but I can use bootcamp

 

Paperless is nice, but I can use GSAK if I need to.

I'm looking forward to each of your opinions. Please just keep them all friendly. =)

 

Thanks!

Dustin Corey

If you're planning on hiking or driving back to the airport after putting your plane down or swimming to shore after ditching either will do the job. Road maps and NOAA blue charts are available for both. But as you know, things are a little different in the air. As an AOPA member, I'd look into an aviation unit that you could also be used on the ground. An example is a GPSMAP 96/96C. Having a HSI page as well as a Jeppesen database with VOR's, intersections, NDB's, ARTCC's, etc. and a U.S. database of obstacles, airspace classes, airports and approaches is better any day than POI's that were meant to be driven or hiked to. Shop around, and you should be able to find something in your price range. Also, you might want to check with other pilots and not passengers for recommendations. Check with Sporty's.

 

I am not a piliot so I am not sure what any of that stuff means, but check out: http://www.poi-factory.com/taxonomy/term/34 They sound like what you are talking about and can be easily loaded into a Garmin as a Custom POI (which can be seperated into various categories).

I was replying to the OP who is. But tell me, why don't you use a Nüvi when you go hiking? Can't you load your TOPO's and POI's onto one of those? A lot cheaper than a Colorado...

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