cache etiquette

[+Mr. Gadget #2]

In the past few weeks several situataions have taken plalce over several local caches by T & S Caches which is a mother daughter team that have been placing very high maintenance caches whic also are on the verge of being considered to be almost geo litter. We have been finding them simply for a PYN cache and really they have NSV cache status.

Yesterday I recieved an email from one of team menbers regarding a log entry I wrote on one of their caches. They even encrypted my log. I sat on this over night and decided to respond in a very diplomatic way. I will include a copy of the email in this post.

.

This raises the question: What is cache etiquette.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Geocaching" <noreply@geocaching.com>

To: <eugene.reed2@verizon.net>

Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2009 6:06 PM

Subject: [GEO] savage04 contacting Mr. Gadget #2 from Geocaching.com

 

thanks for giving away stickers for everyone

 

User's Profile:

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thanks for giving away stickers for everyone

 

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Copy of an email sent to Mr. Gadget #2 from savage04 1/31/2009 6:06 pm

 

thanks for giving away stickers for everyone

User's Profile:

http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?guid=8f...eb-bf4e0cad555f

 

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My log entry was: "Quick Rd side PYN cache Tnks -G-

 

*************************************************************************************

 

Sunday Feb. 1, 2009

 

Greetings to "T" of T & S Caches, (savage 04) and" S" of T & S Caches

lys74517

 

What is your problem? It is apparent to me; you are not a very happy people.

Your conduct is becoming a topic of discussion amongst other cachers in the

Wenatchee area. I have been privilege with some emails exchanges others have

shared to you or about you, regarding your actions with cache logs, or your

style and type of cache hides.

 

I need to advise you that I take exception to your personal attacks you have

displayed towards me personally. To start with lys74517's cache GC1D9YM

Pooders Hide, I posted a parking coordinates with my original log for a

public location that one must use to go after this cache. If you take a

moment to notice on the "Log your visit page" there is a place we can use to

add additional way points that are pertinent to the logs or the cache. One

must be very careful not to misuse this feature in any way which will give

away hidden locations or details in a puzzle or multi-cache. lys74517 did

not approve of my original log, and then deleted my log just because of a

valid entry. This action really was uncalled for. So I simply posted "found

it logged it. As before I mentioned via a note on the cache page, my intent

was to help others to go where to park. When gercachers have GPS units that

have the capability for auto routing, the most direct route will lead you

into a private driveway and still a great distance from the cache location

on Pooders Hide.

 

When your cache GC1J0Z0 "Can You See Her Fly" was published, you took a

personal attack towards me with the snide comment: (PS "Gadget don't give

this one away!!!") This simply was an insult as far as I am concerned.

 

Now regarding my log entries on any of your hides never has my log given

away where the hide was at. There was a lot of discussion over this. I was

pleased when you rightfully deleted this comment from the later version of

the cache page.

 

Then yesterday I get your email sent to me regarding GC1KVXK "Stickers".

Wow! I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how my log entry has

given this cache away to everyone.

 

I welcome you to respond to this. I hope today is better for you than

yesterday

 

Gene Reed, (user name: Mr. Gadget #2 geocaching.com)

Edited February 2, 2009 by Mr. Gadget #2

[8.6]

This raises the question: What is cache etiquette.

 

Gene,

 

It's hard to tell exactly what your question is regarding cache etiquette. However, being on the subject of etiquette I thought I'd mention that I consider it poor form to take personal issues like this to the forums. You should be dealing with the cache owner and not involving a community of people who have only heard your side of the story. And, I'm no diplomat, but starting your response with "What is your problem?" is in no way a "very diplomatic" way of approaching anything.

[+Renegade Knight]

In the past few weeks several situataions have taken plalce over several local caches by T & S Caches which is a mother daughter team that have been placing very high maintenance caches whic also are on the verge of being considered to be almost geo litter. We have been finding them simply for a PYN cache and really they have NSV cache status.

Yesterday I recieved an email from one of team menbers regarding a log entry I wrote on one of their caches. They even encrypted my log. I sat on this over night and decided to respond in a very diplomatic way. I will include a copy of the email in this post....

 

This post and your email fall short of diplomatic. Based on what you have laid out I'd choose the side of the other team. You present yourself as an expert and pass judgment before you even make your case.

 

They encrypted a log. Obviously they thought it was a spoiler. While their email was written in a bit of a snit, yours even after cooling off was cold, calculated, and if it's any indication of how you normally log, that cache owner is doing well to merely encrypt your log. If the situation were reversed I'm not sure you would be so kind.

 

You have a heavy hand. Lighten up. This is a hobby.

[+Dgwphotos]

Simple solution. Ignore list all of their caches.

[John E Cache]

Giving a description of the cache location(roadside) or how to get there(parking coordinates) or anything that helps future finders is considered spoiling. Some finders don't read logs before hand. Some hiders don't like spoiler logs. In my opinion, the hiders weren't trying to criticize you, but were showing their preference for no spoiler logs.

[+AndrewRJ]

This raises the question: What is cache etiquette.

 

Gene,

 

It's hard to tell exactly what your question is regarding cache etiquette. However, being on the subject of etiquette I thought I'd mention that I consider it poor form to take personal issues like this to the forums. You should be dealing with the cache owner and not involving a community of people who have only heard your side of the story. And, I'm no diplomat, but starting your response with "What is your problem?" is in no way a "very diplomatic" way of approaching anything.

As is hiding behing a sock puppet and posting SBA notes with them Just consitering the iorny here.

[+AndrewRJ]

Giving a description of the cache location(roadside) or how to get there(parking coordinates) or anything that helps future finders is considered spoiling. Some finders don't read logs before hand. Some hiders don't like spoiler logs. In my opinion, the hiders weren't trying to criticize you, but were showing their preference for no spoiler logs.

I agree that the e-mail could have been better worded, but I have an honest question here. How is saying it is a roadside cache a spoiler?

 

Is there only one type of roadside hide over in Wenatchee? I mean he didn't say it was hanging from the third branch in the maple tree; a quick look on a map or a drive by would show that it is on the side of the road. When you pull up you are going to see the same thing.

[John E Cache]

Giving a description of the cache location(roadside) or how to get there(parking coordinates) or anything that helps future finders is considered spoiling. Some finders don't read logs before hand. Some hiders don't like spoiler logs. In my opinion, the hiders weren't trying to criticize you, but were showing their preference for no spoiler logs.

I agree that the e-mail could have been better worded, but I have an honest question here. How is saying it is a roadside cache a spoiler?

I did a cache once where the hider did give trail head coordinates and after a couple of miles of hiking later I came to the cache near a road(the Pittock Mansion parking lot actually).

[+ventura_kids]

I've been on both sides of this situation.

 

Try to think of one of your cache hides.

Doesn't it seem like the finders are sort of grading your hide?

You may want to smooth over the situation.....just a suggestion.

 

It sounds to me like the cache hider gets all their caches found by you.

Did you like the hide? Would you like the hider to quit playing the game all together?

The hider can only get a short quick idea of how you liked or disliked the cache.

As cachers learn more about the game, their hides will improve.

 

Try Thanking them for hiding a cache for you to look for.

Without hiders, there would be NO finders.

[+ventura_kids]

slooowwww website caused another duplicate post.

Someone feed the frog.

Edited February 2, 2009 by ventura_kids

[+AndrewRJ]

Giving a description of the cache location(roadside) or how to get there(parking coordinates) or anything that helps future finders is considered spoiling. Some finders don't read logs before hand. Some hiders don't like spoiler logs. In my opinion, the hiders weren't trying to criticize you, but were showing their preference for no spoiler logs.

I agree that the e-mail could have been better worded, but I have an honest question here. How is saying it is a roadside cache a spoiler?

I did a cache once where the hider did give trail head coordinates and after a couple of miles of hiking later I came to the cache near a road(the Pittock Mansion parking lot actually).

What I am saying, I guess, is if you read the log that said it was by a road, did you not also look at the google map on the page. Usually even if parking coords are given it would be aparent that it was by the road by looking at the page. I guess I just don't see what his Origional log said that about 3 or 4 other logs hadn't already said that was excessivily spoiling the cache.

 

Trailhead coords are a little different, I understand that the owner may have wanted you to hike in a specific way to see something interesting and not taken the shortest route.

[+jcar]

...

We have been finding them simply for a PYN cache and really they have NSV cache status.

...

 

I have a stupid question, well maybe two. What is PYN and NSV? I can almost come up with a couple of things for NSV that make sense but PYN?

[John E Cache]

Giving a description of the cache location(roadside) or how to get there(parking coordinates) or anything that helps future finders is considered spoiling. Some finders don't read logs before hand. Some hiders don't like spoiler logs. In my opinion, the hiders weren't trying to criticize you, but were showing their preference for no spoiler logs.

I agree that the e-mail could have been better worded, but I have an honest question here. How is saying it is a roadside cache a spoiler?

I did a cache once where the hider did give trail head coordinates and after a couple of miles of hiking later I came to the cache near a road(the Pittock Mansion parking lot actually).

What I am saying, I guess, is if you read the log that said it was by a road, did you not also look at the google map on the page. Usually even if parking coords are given it would be aparent that it was by the road by looking at the page. I guess I just don't see what his Origional log said that about 3 or 4 other logs hadn't already said that was excessivily spoiling the cache.

 

Trailhead coords are a little different, I understand that the owner may have wanted you to hike in a specific way to see something interesting and not taken the shortest route.

The owner only encrypted the log and my guess(only a guess) was the owner was hoping some finders wouldn't use the road. Why else encrypt it? If that is all the owner intended, the response to encrypting the log was excessive not the original log. Edited February 2, 2009 by John E Cache

[+WRASTRO]

...

We have been finding them simply for a PYN cache and really they have NSV cache status.

...

 

I have a stupid question, well maybe two. What is PYN and NSV? I can almost come up with a couple of things for NSV that make sense but PYN?

I went with pad your numbers and no significant value.

[+Prying Pandora]

...

We have been finding them simply for a PYN cache and really they have NSV cache status.

...

 

I have a stupid question, well maybe two. What is PYN and NSV? I can almost come up with a couple of things for NSV that make sense but PYN?

I went with pad your numbers and no significant value.

That's a lot less provocative than what I was imagining for PYN...

[Team Misguided]

One thing that I'd offer up is that when bringing something like this to the forums, there is a fine line between not enough information and too much information. In this case, I think it might have been better if you had left out the names of the other cachers. You could have asked your question on etiquette, given a general description of the situation but kept the specific details to a minimum.

[+SamSpade47]

Why is there a statement saying something to the effect of, "spoilers might be present" and "if you're spoiling, you might consider encrypting"? If people don't like people spoiling, why doesn't it just say, "no spoilers allowed"?

 

Sam

[+TotemLake]

Why is there a statement saying something to the effect of, "spoilers might be present" and "if you're spoiling, you might consider encrypting"? If people don't like people spoiling, why doesn't it just say, "no spoilers allowed"?

 

Sam

The warning is added by the system. Not by the author.

[+Mr. Gadget #2]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this topic. At this time I wish to clarify some doubts in some of the comments generated so far. The positive thing is; it has provoked the thought process and sharing of different views.

This is not an overnight occurrence that just happened. The negativism has been festering for some time. There are others in the area that are having issues. I just happen to be the one to bring it to a head. Yes I should have been a little softer or struck out any identifiers other than the GC#’s in the copy of the email I posted, criticism well taken.

Short and brief logs posted. Yes my logs on their caches are currently brief. In the beginning I was more complementary in my logs for their found caches. After issues arose, things changed.

The encrypted log on my entry for the Stickers cache, I did not encrypt it. The cache owner opted to do this.

The PYN and NSV: WRASTRO gets a attaboy! Pad You Numbers and No Significant Value

Maybe I should have waited a few more days and let the boiling pot simmer and cool down before it boiled over. My initial gut reaction was to call it as it was “A spade a spade” I am sorry if I came across as being so cold and callous. I do feel much better getting it off of my chest. –G-

[+WRASTRO]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to this topic. At this time I wish to clarify some doubts in some of the comments generated so far. The positive thing is; it has provoked the thought process and sharing of different views.

This is not an overnight occurrence that just happened. The negativism has been festering for some time. There are others in the area that are having issues. I just happen to be the one to bring it to a head. Yes I should have been a little softer or struck out any identifiers other than the GC#’s in the copy of the email I posted, criticism well taken.

Short and brief logs posted. Yes my logs on their caches are currently brief. In the beginning I was more complementary in my logs for their found caches. After issues arose, things changed.

The encrypted log on my entry for the Stickers cache, I did not encrypt it. The cache owner opted to do this.

The PYN and NSV: WRASTRO gets a attaboy! Pad You Numbers and No Significant Value

Maybe I should have waited a few more days and let the boiling pot simmer and cool down before it boiled over. My initial gut reaction was to call it as it was “A spade a spade” I am sorry if I came across as being so cold and callous. I do feel much better getting it off of my chest. –G-

Woof! I feel so special having got one right and it is only early February! What do I do now for the rest of the year?

 

These sorts of issues are always a challenge and it seems it is almost always better to discuss and attempt to settle them behind closed forums (doors, emails, coffee). Bring a generic concept/topic here for an airing but keep the details between "friends" if at all possible.

 

I hope you are all able to get this tiff resolved in a friendly fashion and move on to other things like having fun caching and hanging out with lots of cool and fun cachers.

[+SamSpade47]

Why is there a statement saying something to the effect of, "spoilers might be present" and "if you're spoiling, you might consider encrypting"? If people don't like people spoiling, why doesn't it just say, "no spoilers allowed"?

 

Sam

The warning is added by the system. Not by the author.

 

Hey TL, Just playing devils advocate here...

 

So if the cache owners know the system puts that disclaimer there, why get their panties in a bunch if someone spoils?

 

Seems like people are being a little to sensitive.

 

Anyway, it's all good with me.

 

BTW, we're practically neighbors, I'm over in Redmond, maybe we'll run into you sometime.

 

Checking out for the night.

 

 

Sam

[+mmauvil]

I just wanted to say that Gadget is not alone with this. I too have had a run in with these particular cachers. Mine is not to the extreme that Gadget has gone through. For no reason they have singled Gadget out and are harrasing him, he should be able to find their caches without having a log deleted, encrypted, or being badgered on their cache page.

 

BTW, the cache owners encrypted his log and there were others who mentioned that it was along a busy highway and their logs are intact and this is the only road that you can use as it's the major highway.

[+TotemLake]

Why is there a statement saying something to the effect of, "spoilers might be present" and "if you're spoiling, you might consider encrypting"? If people don't like people spoiling, why doesn't it just say, "no spoilers allowed"?

 

Sam

The warning is added by the system. Not by the author.

 

Hey TL, Just playing devils advocate here...

 

So if the cache owners know the system puts that disclaimer there, why get their panties in a bunch if someone spoils?

 

Seems like people are being a little to sensitive.

 

Anyway, it's all good with me.

 

BTW, we're practically neighbors, I'm over in Redmond, maybe we'll run into you sometime.

 

Checking out for the night.

 

 

Sam

I would be pleased to meet you. As to your Devil's Advocate question, I'll put this to you and you can draw your own conclusions... How many people have read the complete cache page including the TOS? As with everything, the devil is in the details.

[+TotemLake]

I just wanted to say that Gadget is not alone with this. I too have had a run in with these particular cachers. Mine is not to the extreme that Gadget has gone through. For no reason they have singled Gadget out and are harrasing him, he should be able to find their caches without having a log deleted, encrypted, or being badgered on their cache page.

 

BTW, the cache owners encrypted his log and there were others who mentioned that it was along a busy highway and their logs are intact and this is the only road that you can use as it's the major highway.

I can only advise my philosophy I picked up back in 2004. When something stops being fun, stop doing the thing that aggravates you.

[+LandRover]

I just wanted to say that Gadget is not alone with this. I too have had a run in with these particular cachers. Mine is not to the extreme that Gadget has gone through. For no reason they have singled Gadget out and are harrasing him, he should be able to find their caches without having a log deleted, encrypted, or being badgered on their cache page.

 

BTW, the cache owners encrypted his log and there were others who mentioned that it was along a busy highway and their logs are intact and this is the only road that you can use as it's the major highway.

I can only advise my philosophy I picked up back in 2004. When something stops being fun, stop doing the thing that aggravates you.

I have to agree with that philosophy, it took me a while to figure out but eventually I did figure it out. I had last week off and did a bit of cache maintenance and hunted for a couple of caches in my area.

Now I remember why it's been 6 months since I've hunted any caches within my 5 mile radius. Not terrible caches but unless I'm out group caching the urban experience just isn't my cup of tea anymore.

[+jcar]

...

We have been finding them simply for a PYN cache and really they have NSV cache status.

...

 

I have a stupid question, well maybe two. What is PYN and NSV? I can almost come up with a couple of things for NSV that make sense but PYN?

I went with pad your numbers and no significant value.

Thanks! I was close on NSV. I find it interesting that you really are not that far away as a crow flies but that mountain range dividing us even has us using different acronyms.

[+hydnsek]

...

We have been finding them simply for a PYN cache and really they have NSV cache status.

...

 

I have a stupid question, well maybe two. What is PYN and NSV? I can almost come up with a couple of things for NSV that make sense but PYN?

I went with pad your numbers and no significant value.

Thanks! I was close on NSV. I find it interesting that you really are not that far away as a crow flies but that mountain range dividing us even has us using different acronyms.

Me too, on both counts. NSV = NRV.

[+Creami Cannoli]

They've singled Gadget out. I have seen the "Don't give this one away GADGET!" jab on the cache description.

 

In all of his logs, he is careful not to give info away. Yesterday when I was out caching, we found one of the caches by that hider. There is a clear description of an area to look that they put in the cache description and encryted. It did not specifically state the object it was near, so they didnt want it to be too easy.

 

But this log is still there, unencrypted, and it basically gives the hide away.

 

Tried to be stealth but the three of us coming out of the tree probably looked funny to people driving by.

[This entry was edited by *name removed on Sunday, November 16, 2008 at 12:44:13 PM.]

.

 

If Gadget has posted that, they would have encrypted it. I have a lot of respect for Gene and how helpful he is to new cachers. I think that it is wrong they've singled him out and are punishing him for whatever misdeed they think he did.

 

He may have shared too much info here, but I do understand how frustrating it would be in his position. I would be tempted to do the same.

[John E Cache]

If Gadget has posted that, they would have encrypted it. I have a lot of respect for Gene and how helpful he is to new cachers. I think that it is wrong they've singled him out and are punishing him for whatever misdeed they think he did.

OK, I am kind of out of my element because I don't cache much anymore. Why is encrypting a log entry considered punishing? Being helpful is spoiling to me. I realize some people buy a video game and go to a cheat site to get a cheat code to enable infinite life and some people like to spoil caches. I try finding the cache before reading the logs. The owner should realize that some people don't read the logs because of the spoiler warning and the cache isn't totally spoiled.

 

He may have shared too much info here, but I do understand how frustrating it would be in his position. I would be tempted to do the same.

The real reason I jumped into this thread is that he posted a private e-mail without permission. My thing is internet forums and usenet. Posting e-mail has always been frowned upon. Especially if you leave the real names in, like Team Misguided said.

[+Creami Cannoli]

having a log encrypted isn't a punishment. I was just pointing out how they seem to pick on his "revealing" logs and encrypt them to punish him for some abitrary reason, while leaving actual logs that could spoil a cache unencrypted.

[+Bad Duck]

Personally I'd take offense to someone calling each of my caches a PYN cache. I looked through a dozen logs that the OP left and only on one hider did he keep calling the cache PYN. Sounds antagonistic to me by using derogatory terms to describe the cache.

[+Mr. Gadget #2]

I am about to have Team Misguided lock this topic. I will wait for a few days to see in anyone else wants to jump in.

I have never met or do not know any of the members of T & S Caches. During this past few days there has been some very positive things take place. "T" of the team has contacted me via email(s) We have discussed some of our differences.

Even with some of my concerns not being answered, I feel very positive this tiff is behind us. I have seen some improvement on some of their recent finds. So in turn, I went back and edited my logs on 3 of their recent caches.

Maybe some time in the future at a event or at a cache, I may get the chance to meet them.

Mr. G2

[+WRASTRO]

So this is beginning to sound like a positive work in progress. That is a good thing. As is often seen on the general forums it is very easy to take shots at others when you do not know them. Cacher to cacher communication seems to be the best way to resolve most matters like this. Hope it all works out well for everyone. Hope you get to meet each other and become the best of caching friends!