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Logging without signing the log


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What are the rules in Geocaching?
  1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.
  2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.
  3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

So why is rule #2 so important yet you can ignore rule #3 with impunity. If you are for rules, you should be consistent and be for all rules.

So let's not give smileys to people who don't log their finds online!

 

Oh, wait... isn't that how it works already?

 

:(:P:laughing:

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I'm wondering what you think this hobby is supposed to be. I'm also wondering why anyone would think anything fun can't have simple rules. Everything has rules.

 

This activity is supposed to be fun, that is what I think it is supposed to be.

I have very clear rules, I even posted them right there in the message, if your log negatively impacts another geocacher I will delete your log, very simple stuff, those are my rules.

 

I also said when you are out geocaching and you think that you need "proof" you are trying to make geocaching something it isn't because the rules are really simple, you log your find online, the owner lets that log stand or deletes it, where does "proof" enter into this?

 

Geocaching is very simple - I own the caches I place, I decide what constitues a find and I decide if a log will stand, those are pretty straightforward rules.

 

Finding a geocache doesn't mean anything at all, it is just fun.

 

So tell me, if everything has rules, what are the rules for frolicking? :(

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If getting at the log is part of the challenge then indeed signing the log would be a prerequisite to logging a find.

 

I have found logs that where unsignable because they were so wet that they would disintegrate the moment I put pen or pencil to them. In those instances I will sign a piece of paper and add it to the container.

 

I do recall two instances where the logs were unsignable and the containers could not fit an extra piece of paper. In both cases I photographed the container in my hand and logged a find. I figure the sport is geoCACHING, not geoLOGGING and I found the cache, so I logged the find.

 

I have had the same kind of experiences with two different caches that were hidden in natural holes in the ground that had filled with water and then frozen. I could have chipped them out, but the containers would have certainly been damaged or destroyed. Pictures sent to the cache owners did the trick and both not only allowed the finds, but thanked me for not destroying the caches.

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So tell me, if everything has rules, what are the rules for frolicking? :)

 

Frolicking is an underground phenomena to express happiness in a physically exuberant manner. It is properly done by extending the arms outward, picking up the legs and skipping in a forward motion whilst smiling. Frolicking can be done anywhere by anyone who is genuinely happy and wishes to exuberantly express their happiness in a physical way.

 

Here is a video that explains the specific technique in Library Frolicking.

 

Special footwear can be crafted for better frolicking.

 

Controversially, frolicking can be combined with other activities, such as delighting in food & wine. See a blog about a daring individual who does just this: Frolicking Foodie.

 

But beware! Frolicking isn't approved by everyone and can be considered very taboo if done in different ways of undress. Princess Eugenie was reprimanded for frolicking naked on her college campus.

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I mean like:

  • Trade Kindly.
  • Don't move the cache or take it home.
  • Don't expose the hiding spot to muggles.
  • Don't post spoilers.
  • Leave the hiding spot and groundzero as you found it or better.
  • Etc. etc.

 

When I look at this list I see four things that would require control over the behaviour of other geocachers and one thing which is in my control. Education is important and I know that you are a consistent educator. I believe in those four things as well but since I really only control the one thing, "Don't post spoilers" that is the one I can do something about.

I take the usual precautions, the customized cache note, my phone number on the well marked cache, well chosen hiding spots, durable environment near hides, custom covers etc... but I have no direct control over others except in their online posting.

Berating people is not fun.

I recognize that fun has rules but what make sense for every geocacher?

As a cache owner I use a simple rule that always works, if a log negatively impacts another geocacher or geocachers I will delete it and explain exactly how the deleted log negatively impacted someone else. There are many examples of situations where I would (and have) deleted Found logs ie private tracking numbers, using Found log when cache was never seen ETC... But a geocacher claiming they found my cache and had no pencil to sign the log would never be one of them.

I place every geocache for the same reason, so everyone can have fun, including the great number of people who are very casual about geocaching. I don't think finding a geocache means anything at all, it is just fun. But the rules are the rules and fun for everyone means everyone so I do delete logs. When I have to delete a log I take the opportunity to explain why I am doing it, and I won't be saying, "You are a liar" or "You are a cheater", ever. So if you forget your pencil, that is fine, proof is not needed to have fun. :)

When I read a log I am always happy to see that someone had fun. If the log they left needs to be deleted then I explain why and invite them to relog. :o

The best method of encouraging consideration for others is responsible cache ownership.

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I do recall two instances where the logs were unsignable and the containers could not fit an extra piece of paper. In both cases I photographed the container in my hand and logged a find.

 

this is an excellent idea that I would not have thought of. I'll make sure to ALWAYS carry my digital camera with me from now on when caching, just in case.

 

Camera phone. After all, it's probably not artistic quality you're after in such situations :)

 

briansnat's approach seems to be a reasonable compromise to me and is how I've done it so far. I've forgotten to bring my pen a couple of times, and both times thankfully the cache includes a writing instrument.

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I also said when you are out geocaching and you think that you need "proof" you are trying to make geocaching something it isn't because the rules are really simple, you log your find online, the owner lets that log stand or deletes it, where does "proof" enter into this?

 

Do you sign logs? If so why do you feel a need to prove you found the cache by signing the log?

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I mean like:

  • Trade Kindly.
  • Don't move the cache or take it home.
  • Don't expose the hiding spot to muggles.
  • Don't post spoilers.
  • Leave the hiding spot and groundzero as you found it or better.
  • Etc. etc.

 

When I look at this list I see four things that would require control over the behaviour of other geocachers and one thing which is in my control.

The cache owner having control over another's behavior is not really the issue. How one conducts themselves for the benefit and consideration of others is.

 

The above quoted rules are good to go by as they dictate one's behavior so the hobby goes smoothly for other participants. They are easy to understand, aren't hard to follow, and leave plenty of leeway for enjoyment of the hobby. They are basic rules like don't cut in line or cut nasty egg and beer farts in a crowded elevator.

 

It's kind of unfortunate that this hobby is such that folks with the attitude "I got mine" adversely affects others. We don't cache in a vacuum and unfortunately some folks don't realize it, don't understand it, or simply don't care.

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I also said when you are out geocaching and you think that you need "proof" you are trying to make geocaching something it isn't because the rules are really simple, you log your find online, the owner lets that log stand or deletes it, where does "proof" enter into this?

 

Do you sign logs? If so why do you feel a need to prove you found the cache by signing the log?

 

You are projecting. :lol:

I don't sign logs to "prove" anything, I will leave that up to you.

Who needs this proof briansnat?

 

People are desperate to make geocaching something it isn't. There are no trophies, there is no such thing as the "geocacher of the year" award, proof is not needed or required when you are out geocaching but some people try to make geocaching something it isn't, they are trying to make it a competition and they need to promote rules and proofs when they desire that outcome, they need rules to call others cheaters or liars. I can think of one geocacher who is so desperate and far behind in the competition that is going on in his head that publicly calling others cheaters seems accceptable. I am sure everyone knows how many caches you have hidden because you mention it every day and I am sure it never occurs to you that, it doesn't matter at all.

Geocaching is about having fun, if people are having fun I am satisifed, I trust people. The next time you feel the need to prick your finger so that you can sign a log in blood or whatever might work for you, I want you to know that it doesn't matter, I trust you. If you forgot your pencil, no problem, if you don't have a camera, no problem, I hope you have fun.

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The cache owner having control over another's behavior is not really the issue. How one conducts themselves for the benefit and consideration of others is.

 

The above quoted rules are good to go by as they dictate one's behavior so the hobby goes smoothly for other participants.

 

You and I agree.

I would like people to do all those things but I know they don't. I cannot make people do anything but I can control the logs on my cache and I do, I feel it is important. Every time I delete a log I am basically saying the same thing in the explanantory email, your log is being deleted because it negatively impacted another geocacher, and I explain exactly how that impact happens. This practice emphasizes our responsibility to others geocachers, people then start looking at their adventures in this light.

 

Contrast this approach to..

 

Liar, smiley thief, cheater, this is IMPORTANT, you need PROOF you found the geocache. I know your online log says you had fun, you found the cache and you forgot your pencil but I prefer calling you a liar and deleting your log. Have fun.

 

People who think that proof is required are deficient in some basic understanding of this activity because it really is just about having fun. Finding a geocache doesn't mean anything at all.

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We try to play this game with ethics - that means (to me) signing the log. But recently we located a cache that was hung by fishing line from an overpass into a deep ravine. The cache page said not to leave the sidewalk - meaning don't be stupid enough to go down into the ravine...pull the cache up to you with the fishing line to make the find.

 

Problem was, the cache was stuck in a bunch of thorny bushes and no way could we pull it up without potentially breaking the line.

 

We emailed the CO to explain the problem - we couldn't post a note without giving away the location of the cache - and asked if they wanted us to return and sign the log after they fixed the problem or if we should go ahead and consider the cache a find. We were perfectly happy to do it however they felt it appropriate.

 

They said to go ahead and log the find. So we did.

 

I find with most things in life, there are no hard and fast rules. But asking the CO when issues crop up can very often solve the dilemma. :lol:

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We try to play this game with ethics...

 

Are you suggesting that those playing for fun are not ethical?

 

Unfortunately there will be some people who read your explanantion of your "find" who will conclude that you lack "ethics", not because you did anytihng wrong but because their "ethics" differ from yours. They will suggest that you could have logged that cache with a DNF or a Note and carried on, no need to say anything to the owner. There will be a few who wonder why you didn't just reef on the line, if the cache came free fine, if the line broke, then log a DNF and let the owner fix it. The point I am making is that stating that your behaviour is ethical is simply your opinion of ethical behaviour, it doesn't make your behaviour ethical.

I am not trying to be critical of you personally, I am pointing out that trying to tie the word ethics to your geocaching activity just doesn't fly. You are not alone in thinking your geocaching behaviours are ethical, other people who also feel that they have ethics do things differently than you, they are not unethical. There is one moderator on this site who suggests that "integrity" and geocaching are linked, his definition of "integrity" includes the belief geocachers should never log a cache more than once. I know it sounds like a really stupid definition of integrity (it is) but hey, it takes all kinds, his version of "integrity" in geocaching makes about as much sense as your belief that your behaviour is "ethical".

 

Geocaching is supposed to be fun, if your fun negatively impacts others you should correct your actions so that your fun does not detract from the fun that others are having, assessing the impact of your actions on others in regards to their geocaching adventure is ethical. The owner decides what constitiutes a find and taking direction from the owner is never wrong, it is their cache and respecting their wishes is ethical behaviour.

 

Signing a log book may be your idea of "ethical behaviour" but when I see a log that says, "Out jogging so I didn't have pencil, found your cache and enjoyed the walk, thanks" I don't suppose for one instant that this person lacks ethics, I don't suspect they are lying, I don't think they lack integrity, I don't imagine they have impacted anyone else negatively, they are just doing what geocachers should be doing, having fun.

Edited by wavector
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I didn't sign one log yesterday, and I didn't much care! I wrote my mistake in my log, I've yet to hear from the owner if it mattered much to them...I'm betting it doesn't! The deal, we had just parked and walked two blocks for the first cache, no pen. After replacing it, I made my son go back and make sure I locked the Jeep, he grabbed a pen, but didn't tell me. At the next cache, he whipped out his pen and signed!

 

We could have gone back, but I forgot about it by then!

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That's quite a stretch of logic. Are you suggesting that ThePetersTrio are not having fun? B)

 

Ethical dilemmas are not fun, so yes that is my suggestion.

In my opinion they would be having fun even if they logged a DNF. :mad:

 

I have never faced an ethical dilemma when geocaching.

Finding a geocache doesn't mean anything, it is just fun.

Not finding a geocache means as much as finding a geocache, nothing, they are exactly equal.

 

The standard to which I hold others is very simple, do not detract from the fun that others take in this activity when you log my caches. Even though I do judge logs when they are left on my caches I am not judging the integrity or ethics of the finder, I am judging the effect of that log on other geocachers, nothing else.

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It depends WHY they didn't sign the log. If they found the cache, opened it, but then could not sign the log for some reason (no logbook, wet logbook, no pen) I would count that as a "find" and I have no problem with them logging it as such but I would hope they would go back later to sign in if at all possible. If they did not actually find and OPEN the cache I would not count that as a find. If they found it but didn't open it or saw it but couldn't get to it, how do they know it was really the cache?

 

I logged a find recently on a micro which I didn't sign because there was no pen and I didn't have one with me. I went to look for a nearby cache on a whim while walking my dog to the park so I didn't have my usual caching bag. I mentioned on the page that I didn't have a pen and would go back to sign it within the next few days, which I did.

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I personally will not log unless I can sign the log. Sometimes it takes me getting a new log and baggie to repair damaged logs. I have even found a cache and was physically unable to get it open so I wrote a note. Which brings me to my issue.

 

I made a very good magnetic bolt container. Complete with the bolt head and washer to attach to the front of the sign and the threads, nut, and washer on the back side. I have had the last two people mention in their log that they were not able to find the log though they said they found the cache. Part of the hide is that if you find the bolt head there is not log in that, slowing them down with a dummy cache of sorts. I have even handed the cache portion to my friends and they cant figure out how to open it. I don't think I am going to cause a stink. I guess they missed out on part of the fun of the find. I know I never get that found it feeling like when I'm signing the log.

I am having a similar problem, I have been re-working some archived caches. People have been logging my new cache and the old archives even though the old log book no longer exists. I think if you don't find the cache you don't sign the online Log. For your bolthead hide, finding the physical log is part of the challenge. I agree with the previous poster, a log deletion and gentle reminder with offer of hint is reasonable. Be ready for some pishback.

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I agree with the previous poster, a log deletion and gentle reminder with offer of hint is reasonable. Be ready for some pishback.

 

It only seems reasonable.

Everyone approaches geocaching differently but in the main people geocache to have fun.

They are simply out for a nice walk and don't care at all about find counts or any of the other things that might seem important to you.

These casual seekers are the reasonable standard, they see geocaching as a bit of fun and they are cognizant of the fact that finding a geocache means absolutely nothing.

When they find your cache and have no pen they have not done anything wrong.

When you delete the online log they were kind enough to leave on your cache and tell them, albeit gently, that you are deleting their log because "you believe logbooks need to be signed" they are not going to see you as reasonable. You accomplish nothing but do drive away those who don't care about the numbers but are only out having fun.

 

It is far easier to acknowledge that it is their record and if no other geocacher is adversely impacted then there is no problem.

 

This approach leads to a lot more log deletions, every log that negatively impacts others gets deleted but in every case the explanation is clear and understandable and is based upon the effects of their actions on others, not on some personal standard to which you ascribe. The log deletions in this case make better geocachers out of those who are very casual because it helps them understand the nature of their impact on the fun that others take in this activity.

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For me it's very simple, I cache for fun - I will sign anything that has a log book, but if it is full and I mean full, or so wet you cannot write on it then I will log a find with a maitenance note and I will include in my log that I have not signed it. To me I found the cache that it has not been maintained is not my fault - I will however add an additional log if I have one with me. However I do read the cache page so if the hider has specific requirements I will comply to these as well, like I have a cache that I found over a year ago but have yet to log as one of the requirements is that you include a picture of yourself at cache and did not have a camera when I completed it. Eventually I will get around to it.

 

Cache for Fun

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Cut and Paste from Groundspeak FAQ

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

 

If we're going to go by the "letter of the law", there are plenty of people that have signed the log that should not get a smiley based on "rule" #1 alone!

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Everyone approaches geocaching differently but in the main people geocache to have fun.

They are simply out for a nice walk and don't care at all about find counts or any of the other things that might seem important to you.

These casual seekers are the reasonable standard, they see geocaching as a bit of fun and they are cognizant of the fact that finding a geocache means absolutely nothing.

When they find your cache and have no pen they have not done anything wrong.

When you delete the online log they were kind enough to leave on your cache and tell them, albeit gently, that you are deleting their log because "you believe logbooks need to be signed" they are not going to see you as reasonable. You accomplish nothing but do drive away those who don't care about the numbers but are only out having fun.

 

I guess I'll never understand your theory here. If they're out having fun, that is fine and dandy. There are lots of geocachers who find caches, and do not log their finds on-line. Numbers mean nothing to them.

If, however, on the other fin, they expect to gain smileys, then they are in it for the numbers. And they shoud be expected to sign the log, as is usually required. If you want the smiley, you sign the log. If you are out to have fun, and don't care about the smiley, then you do not have to sign the log (though I have seen a fair number of people who do sign the log, but never log on-line.)

Sign log, get smiley. Don't want to sign log, don't expect a smiley. Otherwise, why bother having a log?

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