FRS/GMRS Radios

[+RonFisk]

I'm looking to purchase a set of good FRS/GMRS radios for group geocaching. Mine are old and outdated and I'd also like to have weather and hazard alerts. I'd appreciate any suggestions or direct me to the appropriate forum.

Thanks, Ron...

Edited January 27, 2009 by RonFisk

[+KJcachers]

what channels are cachers transmitting on? How about Jeep owners? I have a set of these and have never used them.

[+SkellyCA]

From the resource link...

 

Do you have an FRS/PMR channel to find out if other Geocachers are in the area?

Yes. The community has decided on channel 2 as the primary for both FRS and PMR, and 12 as the alternate FRS (Family Radio Service) channel and 8 for the alternate PMR (Europe). FRS and PMR radios are longer distance walkie talkies, like the Motorola Talkabout.

[bogleman]

I have 3 sets and in the long run you would be better off at yelling than making a real distant contact. The best distance I was able to get out of the 24 mile model in a lightly wooded area was under 1000 feet. Great for playing hide and seek in the woods with the kids but worthless for anything else.

 

Want to listen, get a scanner, want to talk get an amature radio license

[+RonFisk]

From the resource link...

 

Do you have an FRS/PMR channel to find out if other Geocachers are in the area?

Yes. The community has decided on channel 2 as the primary for both FRS and PMR, and 12 as the alternate FRS (Family Radio Service) channel and 8 for the alternate PMR (Europe). FRS and PMR radios are longer distance walkie talkies, like the Motorola Talkabout.

I'm looking for a 5 Watt, 22 channel unit that can use AA batteries. I have a Colorado 400t and a GPSMAP 60CSx so I use plenty of rechargeable batteries.

[jholly]

From the resource link...

 

Do you have an FRS/PMR channel to find out if other Geocachers are in the area?

Yes. The community has decided on channel 2 as the primary for both FRS and PMR, and 12 as the alternate FRS (Family Radio Service) channel and 8 for the alternate PMR (Europe). FRS and PMR radios are longer distance walkie talkies, like the Motorola Talkabout.

I'm looking for a 5 Watt, 22 channel unit that can use AA batteries. I have a Colorado 400t and a GPSMAP 60CSx so I use plenty of rechargeable batteries.

 

You then are looking for a GMRS radio. These do require a FCC license. Sorry, I can't recommend any.

 

Jim

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

FRS/GMRS Radios are, as the name implies, dual-band radios that can transmit on either the FRS (Family Radio Service) or GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service) bands. The European PMR radios transmit on yet another band, can have more power output and external antennas, but of course are not legal in the US.

 

Generally the channels 1 through 15 are FRS and 16-22 are GMRS.

 

FRS does not require an FCC license.

 

GMRS requires a ridiculously expensive FCC license that practically no one buys. If you are old enough to remember what happened with CB licenses, same thing... it seems that the FCC learned nothing.

 

Geocachers have chosen channel 2, an FRS channel, as the primary contact channel. What this means is that everyone monitors channel 2 and when a contact is made the participants move off to another channel to carry on the conversation.

 

The FCC giveth and the FCC taketh away. They gave us civilian access to these bands and frequencies, then limited the type-accepted radio's power and antenna capability. Limited them so much, in fact, that if you can't hit who you are talking to with a rock then they probably can't hear you!

 

The FRS band is limited to, I think, 3 watts and the built-in antenna. The GMRS band is limited to, I think, 5 watts and may have an external antenna. In radio it's all about the antenna, power isn't so important.

 

Since geocachers have chosen channel 2 (FRS) as their contact channel (in order to avoid buying the GMRS license), and the built-in stubby antenna on FRS radios can't transmit or receive very well, don't expect a lot of contacts from anyone who can't actually see you.

 

If you are properly licensed then once you make contact on channel 2 you can move to a GMRS channel and get a bit more distance.

 

When it comes to radio specifications manufacturers lie. They do so by telling the truth in ways that you don't expect. An FRS/GMRS radio advertised to communicate 17 miles won't do it in your hands. It will do it, at night, under certain atmospheric conditions, from the upper levels between boats over salt water. Since it can do it, albeit under laboratory conditions, that's what the advertise, thereby lying to you by telling you the truth, just not the whole truth.

 

The radio waves on both FRS and GMRS are line-of-sight. How many times can you see the person you want to talk to 17 miles away? Even 1 mile away? Rarely. If you can, if there's nothing between you, if there's no sun activity, and if atmospheric propagation is just right, you might can talk that far. Realistically... you can't.

 

You can expect decent FRS/GMRS communications up to a maximum of one-half mile, and much less than that in an urban environment, reliably... there will be exceptions based on topography and atmospheric band conditions. {Someone will invariably reply to this "I regularly talk 7 miles on mine!" ... great... show me. You won't often do it even in Alabama's mild hills!}

 

So, here's the interesting part... FCC type-accepted FRS/GMRS radios all have exactly the same capabilities! The $19. Cobra set from WalMart will work just as well as the $79 Motorola set from REI!

 

The expensive sets usually have more whistles and bells, none of which you need, but they all transmit and receive under the same FCC limitations.

 

Just read the specs for output power and if the radio transmits at 3 watts FRS and 5 watts GMRS then it's as capable as any other of its type on the market.

 

CB Radio (11 meter) is a step up, allowing up to (I think) 7 watts and much more effective antennas, but very few geocachers have CBs, especially hand-helds.

 

Amateur (ham) radio is another step up, with up to 100 watts output from a hand-held (Handi-Talkie), and very effective antennas with dozens if not hundreds of miles range, but extremely few geocachers use them.

 

Where there is cell coverage, your best bet is cell phones (they are radios but without some of the limitations) and the PTT (Push-To-Talk) cell phones can be used just like a hand-held radio... in fact they are one, just with world-wide range!

 

Where there is no cell coverage, any FRS/GMRS radio is about equal. Save your money.

 

73 de Ed W4AGA

[+RonFisk]

Thanks for your reply. I basically want it to keep track of the members of our party who probably will be less than a half mile apart but out of sight on the trail. Yelling would probably do the job, but that's not really practical. I agree $85.00 for a five year license is robbery. I remember when they were about $5.00. By this time next year they will more than likely be well over $100.00.

Edited January 28, 2009 by RonFisk

[+Vater_Araignee]

Just go to biglots and get the $5.00 Motorola talkies. They run on 3 AA.

My wife and I regularly get a quarter mile in the woods of southern MI, on a good day we get a half mile.

[+RussellM]

Get your technician ham radio license. You'll be able to operate more power and branch off into other hobbies. That being said, anyone you hope to communicate with would also have to have a license...

[+Thrak]

I use the Midland GXT710VP3 22-Channel GMRS 2-Way Radio. Do NOT believe the distance rating on any handheld radios. It's always totally bogus. If you believe these will go 26 miles then I'd like to sell you some "really great" real estate........

 

These don't use AA batteries but they come with a charging base and seem to last plenty long enough for my usage. They do have FRS and GMRS channels, have weather service, and are 5-watt radios. They have a number of features I like. The GMRS channes do require an FCC license in order to use them legally. I'm weird. I have the license. My friend down the street has GMRS and scoffs at anybody who purchases the license. Many people scoff. It's amazing how many blister-pack radios are sold with FRS/GMRS and the folks aren't licensed. Lots of business use them and that is totally illegal - licensing aside - because the bands aren't allowed for commercial use.

 

You can find a great deal of debate online regarding licensing issues. It's up to you what you do.

[+Criminal]

FRS is limited to ½ watt, CB is limited to 4 watts on AM and 12 on SSB.

 

Here's the primer I wrote for the magazine that explaines it all.

[+Roarmeister]

Generally the channels 1 through 15 are FRS and 16-22 are GMRS.

Actually channels 1-7 are shared FRS/GMS channels but in the US you are supposed to switch to low power (.5 watts) to use them.

 

GMRS requires a ridiculously expensive FCC license that practically no one buys. If you are old enough to remember what happened with CB licenses, same thing... it seems that the FCC learned nothing.

In the US you mean, not in Canada or Mexico. The whole of Geocaching isn't an American only pastime and GMRS is not just an American radio. And outside of N/A you aren't supposed to use them, period. The rules in Canada for example permit handheld GMRS radios to transmit at 2.0 watts ERP. There isn't a radio on the market that is capable of transmitting that yet.

 

Geocachers have chosen channel 2, an FRS channel, as the primary contact channel. What this means is that everyone monitors channel 2 and when a contact is made the participants move off to another channel to carry on the conversation.

This is the first I've heard of... interesting to know. So much inane chatter is on Channel 1 these days.

 

The FRS band is limited to, I think, 3 watts and the built-in antenna. The GMRS band is limited to, I think, 5 watts and may have an external antenna. In radio it's all about the antenna, power isn't so important.

Slightly off - 0.5 watts for the FRS frequencies. Although GMRS is limited to 5 watts, I haven't seen a handset capable of it. My Cobra Li7020s put out 1.78 watts ERP which is the highest measured output of any handheld. It's Li-ion battery is 5x the mass of my cell phone battery and will outlast any AA or AAA powered unit by a wide margin. You need lots of juice to generate high output.

 

When it comes to radio specifications manufacturers lie. They do so by telling the truth in ways that you don't expect. An FRS/GMRS radio advertised to communicate 17 miles won't do it in your hands. It will do it, at night, under certain atmospheric conditions, from the upper levels between boats over salt water. Since it can do it, albeit under laboratory conditions, that's what the advertise, thereby lying to you by telling you the truth, just not the whole truth.

2-6' tall people communicating with GMRS, standing maximum 7 miles apart on perfectly flat terrain is the best one can hope for because the curvature of the earth will prevent any more line of sight! So yes anybody who says they can communicate 30 miles away is standing on mountain tops!!! with nothing in-between, either that or bold face lying!

[+Roarmeister]

Here's a great website for helping you choose your radio.

http://www.twowayradioforum.com/forum/index.php

 

They have a number of reviews and discuss the technical and not so technical points of FRS/GMRS radios.

 

Best of luck.

[+Kohavis]

The FRS band is limited to, I think, 3 watts and the built-in antenna. The GMRS band is limited to, I think, 5 watts and may have an external antenna.

FRS is limited to 0.5 watts and GMRS is limited to 50 watts. However, typically portable GMRS handhelds operate with 1 to 3 watts, but the "power output" is subjective. There are some fine, more expensive GMRS portables that are in the 25 - 30W range, but they're NOT cheap!

 

For an inexpensive radio, you have the two most common options: FRS or GMRS. Both operate in the freq. range around 460 MHz UHF.

 

FRS is cheap, no license is required, and the range is decent for a family picnic or for a car communicating with a fifth wheel it's towing behind it. Outdoor person-to-person max. range is up to about a mile depending on the terrain. Out in an open area, it'll be a mile. In a suburban neighborhood it'll be about 300 yards or so, depending on the radio and terrain. In the woods, maybe half that.

 

GMRS is just as cheap these days because almost all of the radios are hybrid FRS/GMRS. How they managed to get that allowed is baffling, since one radio service requires a license and the other doesn't. I guess the manufacturers have some serious clout with the FCC. GMRS will cost you $85 for a family license, good for 5 years. Range will be up to 2 or 2.5 miles in a suburban setting depending on the radio and terrain, with a highly rated bubble-pack radio. A poorer choice radio, maybe half that, tops.

 

Power specs all depend on where the power is measured - input to final amplifier stage, output to antenna, effective radiated power (ERP), etc. As you pointed out, the power specs are meaningless because if mated to a poorly designed antenna, it's all moot. A radio with a well designed antenna and 1 watt output to the antenna will perform absolute rings around a radio with 5 watts output to the antenna and a crappy antenna. It's all about wavelength and how accurately the antenna is matched to the frequency (1/4 wave, 1/8 wave, something in between ...center loaded, base-loaded, etc.), VSWR (voltage standing wave ratio), dielectric constant, impedance, RF opacity of the cosmetic covering, how good is the effective ground plane?, etc. All interacting and affecting how well that radio works.

 

In this world of mass-produced bubble-pack merchandise, most cheaper FRS and GMRS radios have been made to a general formula that hits the middle of their production variances. Rarely a radio is perfectly matched to the antenna. The vendors are interested in making a tone of them, and selling them as fast as possible. That's why the insanely exaggerated range claims. They're counting on you NOT doing your homework before buying it. You have to move into the pricier enthusiast area of the hobby to get better radios and well-tuned attached or external antennas. Check the web for GMRS websites, usergroups, forums, blogs, etc.

 

Here's a good list of output "power" of several GMRS/FRS radios:

http://www.twowayradioforum.com/forum/show...amp;postcount=1

 

What's far more important is the reviews of the various models in real-world situations. Check out the site. From what I've been able to gather, the Cobra LI-7200 has the best real world range of all radios reviewed and an insanely long battery life. Among the cheap "bubble pack" GMRS radios, it's as good as it gets.

 

LI-7200 Communications Ranges:

House To Car: 1.43 miles

House to person: 1.83 miles

Person to person: 2.19 Miles

Car to car: 1.23 miles

http://www.twowayradioforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=311

 

Forget the advertised ranges. The sales people pull those out of the air (or other, more unseemly places). As someone already pointed out, those are line of sight from two mountaintops and have no real world meaning. In fact, the LI-7200 is advertised as being a "27 mile" radio, but recently I read a review where someone tested it out on two mountaintops and actually got 32 miles range.

 

The Midland GXT-950 is also a very highly-rated unit, with a range slightly lower than the LI-7200, but slightly more rugged. Read the product reviews at twowayradioforums.com for details.

 

The license fee for GMRS is insane, and geared toward the earlier days (pre bubble-pack) when a good handheld would set you back $300. The total damages for a license is currently $85. That covers your whole family for 5 years, but it's still $85 - or 3-years membership here Considering that the above-mentioned top-rated Cobra LI-7200 can be had for $61/free shipping - that includes TWO radios, two 1500 mAH Li-Ion battery packs, an AC adapter and a desktop dual charging cradle, it's no wonder that people are skipping getting a license. It costs more than the gear!

 

The result: There are millions of GMRS radios out there, and currently only 80,000 licensed operators. You do the math. The FCC has placed a higher priority on post-9/11 homeland security issues and just doesn't go after the individual operating without a license unless he's really asking for trouble, like a pattern of malicious behavior. You're far more likely to be turned in by another licensed operator "dropping a dime on you" than by the FCC itself. And even then, they must locate you, since you're not using a call sign.

 

I'm not advocating operating without a license. I'm saying that there is a move underway to get the license requirement for GMRS dropped, ala the older Citizen's Band service which used to require licensing. If you buy a hybrid FRS/GMRS radio and wanted to remain perfectly legal, you could always limit your usage to channels 1 - 14, which are either FRS/GMRS shared or FRS-only channels, and set your power output to "low" on the shared ones. The radio should automatically limit the power on the FRS-only channels. Then wait and see what happens with the GMRS licensing issue.

 

There are two other options besides FRS or GMRS, namely MURS (Multi Use Radio Service) and FHSS (Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum)/eXRS. Neither requires a license.

 

MURS uses the 151 MHz VHF band, and FHSS uses the 900 MHz UHF band. MURS is generally assigned to things like remote gate operation and wireless intercoms, but it is legal to operate two-way radios and is "licensed by rule" instead of by individual. MURS has a power limit of 2 watts. The lower frequency means it will fare better outdoors in the woods, but not quite as good inside a mall. The downside is that the radio gear is pricey. I don't have any real-world range info for MURS, but it's probably similar to GMRS.

 

FHSS/eXR uses the 900 MHz ISM band (Industrial, scientific and medical). Wireless LANs, cordless phones and microwave ovens use various "ISM" bands. For the 900 MHz band I'm not sure what the power limit is, because it's subjective, and dependent on duty cycle, but typical two-way radios operate with a radiated antenna power of 1 watt. FHSS has the advantage of being only marginally more pricey than GMRS ($90/pair versus about $60), and has almost absolute privacy due to the frequency hopping nature. Range is as good as many GMRS units, but not quite as good as the top-rated ones. It's person to person outdoor range is about half that of the highest-rated GMRS unit, the Cobra LI-7200. Here's the range of the Tri-Square TSX300, a highly-rated FHSS/eXR unit:

 

Home to vehicle: .68 miles

Person to person outdoors: 1.25 miles

Vehicle to person (person outdoors): 1.25 miles

Vehicle to vehicle: 1/2 mile

 

Not bad for a license-free radio. The downside is that at 900 MHz, range drops off dramatically with tree cover and hills/valleys. The higher the frequency, the more "line of sight" a radio becomes.

 

Whew! I think I'm done. I hope this information helps someone who is trying to pick a good walkie