Geocoins and Copyrights

January 23, 2009

I've been playing with the idea of designing a Geocoin and I've been wondering about this. Geocoins have been around for quite some years now and there's no way one could possibly see them all.

How do you know, when you're designing a coin not that particularly original, that it's not been done before?

Is there a list somewhere of all designs already out there?

I googled a few ideas I had just to check, but it's not 100% proof, right?

Or am I just being a worrywart?

2.2k · January 23, 2009

I've been playing with the idea of designing a Geocoin and I've been wondering about this. Geocoins have been around for quite some years now and there's no way one could possibly see them all.

How do you know, when you're designing a coin not that particularly original, that it's not been done before?

Is there a list somewhere of all designs already out there?

I googled a few ideas I had just to check, but it's not 100% proof, right?

Or am I just being a worrywart?

There's a couple of things you can do -- this is by no means an exhaustive list, because I'm still relatively new to all of this. But I'd recommend:

Doing a Google Images search using the keyword "geocoin" and some major element from your design (e.g., "turtle geocoin"). You can do a regular Web search, too.

Look through www.geocoincollection.com and www.trackablecoins.com to look for pictures.

You can get a list of all of the active coins and their icons here but be ready for slow page loading. Still, if you see something titled something that seems similar to what you want to do, you can go looking for it.

Search these forums, too. Lots of artists and vendors will announce a coin (with pictures).

You could always post an image, too, and ask the forum regulars if it seems too much like some other coin they remember, if you think there might be an inkling of a chance that it's been done before.

January 23, 2009

You are just being a worrywart. Use your judgement. Most coins are based on a general theme and if you wiki the theme you will see different artistic representations of it. If you do a new version and it has originality I think you are fine. Steer clear of obvious copyright infingements. You'll walk a grey line if you do a "Jedi" coin no matter what other word (like "Geocaching") you add beside it. "Jedi" is obviously copyright. As I don't even need to tell you who owns that copyright YOU KNOW its copyright. You can risk it but you may get sued. Jedi Knights remind me of Shaolin Monks but there is a clear difference so the monks probably wouldn't win a court case. You could do a new Compass Rose as that is a general artistic theme but photocopying one of Mr Yime's designs and then changing a few bits wouldn't do. That would still be copyright infringement. You would have to do your own version of a compass rose. If you wiki Compass Rose you'll see an old design you can work from. I don't know which came first, the Sniperchicken or the Psychochicken geocoin but if I had to go to court to protect one design against another I would have a hard time proving it as the thing the 2 coins have in common is the Chicken (which is a general theme). If you liked Batman you could do Ratman as long as he looked like a rat rather than a bat. Batman is obviously copyright but the only thing in common between Batman and Ratman is the idea of a man dressed up as a animal (which is a general theme). Could you get away publishing a Blue Lantern comic ?, probably not. Also use your intuition. Let go of your conscious self and act on instinct

Edited January 23, 2009 by haysonics

January 23, 2009

...Doing a Google Images search using the keyword "geocoin" and some major element from your design (e.g., "turtle geocoin"). You can do a regular Web search, too...

An original design based on a turtle would not be copyright infringement. A turtle is not copyright. It doesn't matter if someone has already done a turtle geocoin as far as copyright is concerned. You may annoy a particular cacher and I wouldn't buy the coin but you would be safe as far as copyright is concerned. A Ninja Turtle geocoin would be a clear copyright infringement however the creator of the Karate Hampsters successfully defended his case in court. Puc Man was an interesting case. That one lost because the game was a clear copy of an original theme (with just a letter changed in the name and a maze re-design). If a Groovy Frog geocoin appeared I would recommend suing. Groovey and Funky are very similar but there are differences. You may loose the case.

How about Groundtalk.com (which only sells tracking numbers for offensive geocoins and only allows posts which contain flaming) ?

Edited January 23, 2009 by haysonics

2.2k · January 23, 2009

...Doing a Google Images search using the keyword "geocoin" and some major element from your design (e.g., "turtle geocoin"). You can do a regular Web search, too...

An original design based on a turtle would not be copyright infingement. A turtle is not copyright. It doesn't matter is someone has already done a turtle geocoin as far as copyright is concerned. You may annoy a particular cacher and no one may buy your coin but you couldn't get successfully sued (IMO). .A Ninja Turtle is a clear copyright infringement however the creator of the Karate Hampsters successfully defended his case in court. Puc Man was an interesting case. That one lost because the game was a clear copy of an original theme (with just a letter changed in the name and a slight maze re-design).

This is certainly true. However, my post was in response to the substance of the OP, which didn't seem (to me) to be about actual copyright infringement (in which you take someone else's work and either represent it as your own or use it without permission or substantial, "fair use"-type modification), but more about the fear that the design he or she had would be similar enough to a previous design to be considered "already done".

I used turtles as an example. I know that turtles themselves are not copyrighted, nor is the idea of using turtles on a geocoin copyrighted. However, there are already several lines of popular turtle-related coins. This could actually be a reason to do a coin featuring turtles, but which also means that if you're concerned about your design having been done before (for example, if you want to do a shaped coin in the shape of a loggerhead turtle as viewed from above), then it's a good idea to look around, lest you try to sell a coin that people don't want because they've already got one like that.

Edited to add: I hope this doesn't come across as snarky, because it wasn't intended that way at all. Your recommendations re: copyright infringement are spot on. : )

Edited January 23, 2009 by Jackalgirl

January 23, 2009

...(for example, if you want to do a shaped coin in the shape of a loggerhead turtle as viewed from above), then it's a good idea to look around, lest you try to sell a coin that people don't want because they've already got one like that...

That's a very good point. I latched onto the turtle comment because that provides a great example. If another person brought out a Loggerhead Turtle geocoin I wouldn't buy it on principle.

PS. Your avatar is cute

Edited January 23, 2009 by haysonics

24.7k · January 23, 2009

...How do you know, when you're designing a coin not that particularly original, that it's not been done before?...

You can't. However if you are doing original work I would not bother worrying about it. It's a task for copyright owners to enforce their copyright. Not for original copyright creators to police their own original work on the off chance that their turtle drawn their way with their spin and orginal thought just happens to be similar to someone else work.

Even if you did want to do a search (and while I don't think you need to it wouldn't hurt if you did) you can only see a snippet of all copyrights that may be a concern.

My kids refrigerator art is copyrighted after all. Besides the intent of copyright is in part to encourage new works.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Renegade Knight

3k · January 23, 2009

If you have a theme that you like and is a personal representation of you, I'd stop worrying right there. If it's original work (regardless of theme) it should be appreciated all on it's own. Case in point would be the dozens of coins/chips/nickels/tags/sigs with dog prints on them. It's a common theme and will be used again and again. Not original, but almost all the individual items are very much so. Try to go with your gut and create your own piece without worrying about everyone else. If you're inclined to you could also post a sketch of your idea here and get feedback from people who have seen a lot more coins. I've seen quite a few myself and I'm constantly surprised week after week with the ones I've missed.

January 23, 2009

Jackalgirl got it right, I was more wondering about other people's geocoin designs, not copyrighted work like films or art. Point taken, I've searched Google, and the sites linked to and didn't see anything similar, so I went ahead and sent my design for review to CoinsandPins. You will hear of it soon if the project is approved.

www.geocoincollection.com is pretty much the kind of "list" I was asking for, thanks!

1.2k · January 23, 2009

I don't think anyone does worry about it, seeing as how many coins there are that look alike. Just look at how many there are that are shaped like a Garmin 60cs (of which Junglehair was the first to do it).

January 23, 2009

I don't think anyone does worry about it, seeing as how many coins there are that look alike. Just look at how many there are that are shaped like a Garmin 60cs (of which Junglehair was the first to do it).

We *do* search the database on GS before we send art to the mint and I think most of the other vendors do at least a simple search of it. Out of respect to the other designers we don't want to offer up something that is too close to another coin, and have actually scrapped a number of good ideas because someone else beat us to the punch! That being said it is almost impossible to see every coin and check it against your design. Sometimes similarities can pop up later that were not discovered during the initial research, it happens and life goes on. But an effort is made.

As was mentioned earlier, people also tend to vote with their pocketbooks and there is no sense spending the money to mint a coin that people already feel they have in their inventory.

Good luck with your design!

January 23, 2009

How about Groundtalk.com (which only sells tracking numbers for offensive geocoins and only allows posts which contain flaming) ?

I like this idea...but how about groundtalk.gs?

2k · January 23, 2009

AS A ARTIEST, YOUR GOING TO JUST WORK WITH ORGINAL IDEAS, YOUR OWN IDEAS , TO MAKE YOUR OWN COIN, NEED NOT WORRY THEN,BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT 2 OF YOU, SO NO MATTER OF WHAT YOU GET IN THE END,, ITS YOUR EXPRESSION,AND YOUR ARTWORK, ITS OK TO "BORROW" IDEAS, JUST MAKE THEM YOUR OWN. I SEEK FOR IDEAS ALL THE TIME, FROM OTHER ART WORK OR PICTURES,, ITS MORE FOR INSPERATION, GOOD LUCK!

January 24, 2009

not to get off subject or anything, but I have a coptwrite question...

I know that something like the golden arches at McD's is a copywrite issue but how about when the 'McCain/Palin' and 'Obama' Vote coins came out are they copywrite issues?

I know Elvis or Darth Vader would be a copywrite issue, but what about Santa Claus or Uncle Sam?

Bugs Bunny, yes...Easter Bunny, no?

How about famous statues like "the Thinker" or 'Atlas' holding the globe?

not trying to highjack the thread here, just curious...

24.7k · January 24, 2009

not to get off subject or anything, but I have a coptwrite question...

I know that something like the golden arches at McD's is a copywrite issue but how about when the 'McCain/Palin' and 'Obama' Vote coins came out are they copywrite issues?

I know Elvis or Darth Vader would be a copywrite issue, but what about Santa Claus or Uncle Sam?

Bugs Bunny, yes...Easter Bunny, no?

How about famous statues like "the Thinker" or 'Atlas' holding the globe?

not trying to highjack the thread here, just curious...

It's a fair questoin. Copyright protects your original work. When you get into something like the golden arches you are now talking about trade marks.

Check it out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark

2k · January 24, 2009

not to get off subject or anything, but I have a coptwrite question...

I know that something like the golden arches at McD's is a copywrite issue but how about when the 'McCain/Palin' and 'Obama' Vote coins came out are they copywrite issues?

I know Elvis or Darth Vader would be a copywrite issue, but what about Santa Claus or Uncle Sam?

Bugs Bunny, yes...Easter Bunny, no?

How about famous statues like "the Thinker" or 'Atlas' holding the globe?

not trying to highjack the thread here, just curious...

not if they drew the artwork them self or got permission from the artiest to use the art. if they copy and paste from the net ,,then for sure..

2.2k · January 24, 2009

not to get off subject or anything, but I have a coptwrite question...

I know that something like the golden arches at McD's is a copywrite issue but how about when the 'McCain/Palin' and 'Obama' Vote coins came out are they copywrite issues?

I know Elvis or Darth Vader would be a copywrite issue, but what about Santa Claus or Uncle Sam?

Bugs Bunny, yes...Easter Bunny, no?

How about famous statues like "the Thinker" or 'Atlas' holding the globe?

not trying to highjack the thread here, just curious...

not if they drew the artwork them self or got permission from the artiest to use the art. if they copy and paste from the net ,,then for sure..

If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't matter if I draw a picture of, say, the Tazmanian Devil myself -- I can't use it, because Taz is trademarked by Warner Brothers. So the fact that I originated the art does not matter; Taz as a character is WB's property period.

I would have to draw something Taz-ish, but sufficiently different from Taz that the average person would not confuse it for Taz.

Now, if I got permission, I'd be free to do it, of course. Or if I bought a license from WB for the creation of the art and/or product. I imagine that this would be very difficult to do with WB, who is probably pretty protective of their characters. Which is why most of the stuff you see on the web has probably been plagarized.

2k · January 24, 2009

not to get off subject or anything, but I have a coptwrite question...

I know that something like the golden arches at McD's is a copywrite issue but how about when the 'McCain/Palin' and 'Obama' Vote coins came out are they copywrite issues?

I know Elvis or Darth Vader would be a copywrite issue, but what about Santa Claus or Uncle Sam?

Bugs Bunny, yes...Easter Bunny, no?

How about famous statues like "the Thinker" or 'Atlas' holding the globe?

not trying to highjack the thread here, just curious...

not if they drew the artwork them self or got permission from the artiest to use the art. if they copy and paste from the net ,,then for sure..

If I'm not mistaken, it doesn't matter if I draw a picture of, say, the Tazmanian Devil myself -- I can't use it, because Taz is trademarked by Warner Brothers. So the fact that I originated the art does not matter; Taz as a character is WB's property period.

I would have to draw something Taz-ish, but sufficiently different from Taz that the average person would not confuse it for Taz.

Now, if I got permission, I'd be free to do it, of course. Or if I bought a license from WB for the creation of the art and/or product. I imagine that this would be very difficult to do with WB, who is probably pretty protective of their characters. Which is why most of the stuff you see on the web has probably been plagarized.

yes you are right , you do need to make him your own, or get permission because he is a trademark, but obama is not a trademark,, so i could draw obama right now in pencil #2 and it would be considered orginal ar t and i could sell it, i know it gets complicated, for example, if i took a pic of obama and reproduced it and sold it,, is considered different then if i drew a pic of obama and printed many copys and sold it.

2.2k · January 24, 2009

yes you are right , you do need to make him your own, or get permission because he is a trademark, but obama is not a trademark,, so i could draw obama right now in pencil #2 and it would be considered orginal ar t and i could sell it, i know it gets complicated, for example, if i took a pic of obama and reproduced it and sold it,, is considered different then if i drew a pic of obama and printed many copys and sold it.

You're absolutely correct. The photograph is copyrighted, so you are not free to simply reproduce it straight up and sell it. But the image of Obama is not, as far as I understand it, trademarked in any way. (I may be wrong; I often am.)

I remember way, waaaaay back when in art school, when one of my teachers told us the story about how he'd gotten in trouble for reproducing (in guache) a photograph of Robert Redford in an illustration for an advertisement. The teacher had been looking through his morgue for pictures of cowboys and had a picture of Redford in there. I don't even think he recognized that it was Redford. Anyway, Redford's lawyers contacted him and notified him that this was a no-go. I honestly don't remember the details, and probably should know them, because in this case the artist had copied - but by hand -- the photograph, which one might (at first blush) think is perfectly okay. It may be that Redford had trademarked his image (and I think that's what the deal was) -- I wish I could remember all of the details!

January 24, 2009

not to get off subject or anything, but I have a coptwrite question...

How about famous statues like "the Thinker" or 'Atlas' holding the globe?

They are considered to be Public Domain images as the creator of them died so many years ago- however photographs taken of them are considered to be copyrighted by the photographer. But with so many photos out there, I think they would have a hard time proving that it was solely your photo they used as reference. A coin with the Thinker would be great for puzzle caches!

January 24, 2009

not to get off subject or anything, but I have a coptwrite question...

How about famous statues like "the Thinker" or 'Atlas' holding the globe?

They are considered to be Public Domain images as the creator of them died so many years ago- however photographs taken of them are considered to be copyrighted by the photographer. But with so many photos out there, I think they would have a hard time proving that it was solely your photo they used as reference. A coin with the Thinker would be great for puzzle caches!

My thought exactly... I submitted both ideas to a company already. I don't think they were interested in doing them though... the back of the Thinker could have an image of a cacher with a GPS sitting on a log trying to think where the cache is and the cache actual be under him in the log.

The Atlas one could be a good Earthday or CITO themed cache with something simple like "clean it up" on it...

Thanks to all for clarifying the difference between trademarks and copywrites...

next question...

Can a name be trademarked or copywrited?... I mean I know that names like Budweiser, Ford, and Oreo are trademarked, but what if I named my dog Budweiser, my cat Oreo, or my horse Ford? I guess it is ok unless I try to make beer, trucks or cookies.. or COINS?

January 24, 2009

Can a name be trademarked or copywrited?... I mean I know that names like Budweiser, Ford, and Oreo are trademarked, but what if I named my dog Budweiser, my cat Oreo, or my horse Ford? I guess it is ok unless I try to make beer, trucks or cookies.. or COINS?

You can name your dog Budweiser but if you use the name for commercial purposes you infringe the trademark. If you take Bud to a sideshow and charge people to take a picture with him AND you can clearly see "Budweiser" written on the collar you have infringed the trademark PLUS you have potentially damaged the reputation of the Budweiser brand by associating it with a dog. Trademarks are useful when you can't protect a name or an image under copyright. Trademarks prevent people with the surname McDonald from setting up restaurants using that name. The golden archs trademark stops people using the letter "m" with yellow colouring and an arch (in combination or a likeness).

Edited January 24, 2009 by haysonics

Geocoins and Copyrights

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