Is this right?

[Influence Waterfowl Calls]

I have placed all kinds of caches but now I want to focus on unique and tougher caches. So I placed one that is at the posted coords and there is no puzzle to solve to get the coords but my reviewer wants me to list it as a mystery cache because there is a unique way to retrieve it. This can all be done standing at the posted coords mind you. If they did not bring the needed item it is available near by. I said that it is no different than getting to GZ and seeing that you should have brought the rappelling gear but that there will not be rappelling gear laying out in the woods. Forget about the fact that I would not use it if it was.

 

I also thought I would place a letterbox hybrid because there were none around. So I looked into letterboxing placed the container with a stamp in it, and typed up a list of clues to get you to the container from the posted coords to make it have the feel of a letterbox. Nope that was not going to work! The coords had to be for the location of the container or I had to list it as a multi. So I axed the clues. I even had finders ask where the clues where because letterboxes use clues.

 

Took the fun right out of it!

[+TrailGators]

It's hard to really give an opinion without hearing more about it....

[+briansnat]

It's hard to judge without knowing the details, but in the first case, a traditional cache should be findable using only the posted coordinates. If special equipment, (e.g. climbing or SCUBA gear) is required then it should be listed as 5 star for terrain.

 

In the second instance you need to realize that a letterbox hybrid is a geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is FOUND LIKE a letterbox. In most cases where you follow clues from set coordinates then the cache is an offset cache, which would be properly listed as a multi.

Edited January 22, 2009 by briansnat

[+Too Tall John]

After reading no more than the thread title, my initial response was "No, that isn't right."

 

I must say, after reading the OP, with the information given, my reaction is still "No, that isn't right."

 

I have decided that in all future posts, I will simply respond to the question as stated in the title, it will save me from having to read further.

 

Seriously, though, if you want to do this as a Letterbox Hybrid, take a peek at GC1CE6M. What I did was to make it a multi stage Letterbox, with the posted coords bringing you to the first box/stage. Our local reviewer wasn't sure about it, so he brought the idea to the super-secret-reviewers' forum, where it apparently was received with great enthusiasm. Actually, thanks to Gmail, I never have to delete a single email, here's the note I got from the reviewer:

Greetings, Too Tall John.

 

I wanted to share some of the comments I received regarding your North Star of NAVSTAR cache.

 

"This is the epitome of a letterbox hybrid. Please congratulate them for me."

 

"Might even bookmark that for an example of how it should be done!"

 

Keep up the good work.

So, more than one reviewer must have thought that this multi-stage letterbox was just fine. Not only was it not listed as a multi, it was given praise.

 

At any rate, you could also simply list the box on LBNA.org or Atlasquest.com and put the hints there. Anyone who wants to use hints can then find them.

 

As far as listing it as a mystery because of the retrieval method goes, I can think of a multi I did recently with a very funny-shaped container for one of the stages. At the next stage you find out you need that container to retrieve this one. I can also think of several traditional caches that have required something special to retrieve the cache. That's not counting the times I've needed various sticks and hiking poles to retrieve ammo cans that slid too far down into a hollow log. I guess it may depend on the particulars of what this retrieval method is. Without more info it is hard to say, but it's hard not to spoil your cache by posting that info, so.....

 

Well, so much for simply responding to the title of the thread. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea anyways...

[+the pooks]

Your original ideas look interesting and a lot of fun to me. Why not keep it that way and let it be listed as a multi, mystery, letterbox hybrid as applicable. Alway nice to have caches that are more than just park and grab (sorry that slipped in as I was just perusing another thread).

[+Taoiseach]

In the second instance you need to realize that a letterbox hybrid is a geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is FOUND LIKE a letterbox. In most cases where you follow clues from set coordinates then the cache is an offset cache, which would be properly listed as a multi.

 

Well, if that is the absolute end of it, then the term 'Letterbox' has no place in Geocaching., and should be grandfathered.

 

Letterboxing is a clue-based game, and therefore a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should include elements of both.

 

So many Letterbox Hybrids are just another Traditional that happens to have a stamp (Probably not even hand carved) in it. There is a reason that there is not a 'Traditional with a Stamp' icon. My understanding of the Groundspeak guideline is that GPS Technology must be included somehow. If Letterbox hybrids are only allowed to be traditionals, then why can't they be multis too? Similar to what Too Tall John did, I would include the two, but not in quite the same way. Nicely done as it seems, it still defeats the purpose. What I would have done is given the co-ords for the first stage, where you would get instructions (and no co-ordinates) for the second stage, which would give you both for the final. That way, there is a required letterboxing element.

 

A Perfect example of what a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should be is 'Welcome to Windsor,' Which has you start at the posted co-ords, but then the remainder is a pure letterbox. That is the point of having Letterbox Hybrid as a separate cache type. (And I like the spot where you end up!)

 

Technically then, shouldn't Wherigo caches have to start at the final co-ordinates, because you have to answer questions into the Cartridge, rather than using straight co-ordinates?

 

Something that I'm going to do with a Letterbox hybrid that I'm planning, is have people letterbox their way through Downtown Ottawa, to a point, where I tell them to mark a waypoint, adjust it to N45 _ _. _ _ x W075 _ _._ _ x, and then project a waypoint to the final. I'm assuming that this will meet the guidelines, because it incorporates GPS Technology.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Taoiseach

[Influence Waterfowl Calls]

In the second instance you need to realize that a letterbox hybrid is a geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is FOUND LIKE a letterbox. In most cases where you follow clues from set coordinates then the cache is an offset cache, which would be properly listed as a multi.

 

Well, if that is the absolute end of it, then the term 'Letterbox' has no place in Geocaching., and should be grandfathered.

 

Letterboxing is a clue-based game, and therefore a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should include elements of both.

 

So many Letterbox Hybrids are just another Traditional that happens to have a stamp (Probably not even hand carved) in it. There is a reason that there is not a 'Traditional with a Stamp' icon. My understanding of the Groundspeak guideline is that GPS Technology must be included somehow. If Letterbox hybrids are only allowed to be traditionals, then why can't they be multis too? Similar to what Too Tall John did, I would include the two, but not in quite the same way. Nicely done as it seems, it still defeats the purpose. What I would have done is given the co-ords for the first stage, where you would get instructions (and no co-ordinates) for the second stage, which would give you both for the final. That way, there is a required letterboxing element.

 

A Perfect example of what a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should be is 'Welcome to Windsor,' Which has you start at the posted co-ords, but then the remainder is a pure letterbox. That is the point of having Letterbox Hybrid as a separate cache type. (And I like the spot where you end up!)

 

Technically then, shouldn't Wherigo caches have to start at the final co-ordinates, because you have to answer questions into the Cartridge, rather than using straight co-ordinates?

 

Something that I'm going to do with a Letterbox hybrid that I'm planning, is have people letterbox their way through Downtown Ottawa, to a point, where I tell them to mark a waypoint, adjust it to N45 _ _. _ _ x W075 _ _._ _ x, and then project a waypoint to the final. I'm assuming that this will meet the guidelines, because it incorporates GPS Technology.

 

Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

My point exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

But the reviewer did not see it that way.

 

As for the traditional that my reviewer thinks should be a mystery...

 

JUST ADD WATER! Then the container will float out! I hate to say it here because some one will look at my forum post to see the trick but then again it is not the first cache like this!

[Keystone]

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

 

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

 

Letterbox hybrid caches MAY have letterbox style clues as part of the hunt, so long as they also have GPS usage.

[+BBWolf+3Pigs]

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

 

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

 

Letterbox hybrid caches MAY have letterbox style clues as part of the hunt, so long as they also have GPS usage.

 

So, if the listing reads something like:

 

"Go to the posted Coordinates (which are out in the middle of the woods someplace). Then, look for the big oak tree and continue on that trail. At the next intersection, go left. The box is behind the big elm tree"

 

is this considered OK for a LB Hybrid? If so, is it listed as such, or as a Multi or Mystery (since the box is not at the listed coords). If this is the case, why have a LB Hybrid option?

[+Coyote's Girl]

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

 

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

 

Letterbox hybrid caches MAY have letterbox style clues as part of the hunt, so long as they also have GPS usage.

 

So, if the listing reads something like:

 

"Go to the posted Coordinates (which are out in the middle of the woods someplace). Then, look for the big oak tree and continue on that trail. At the next intersection, go left. The box is behind the big elm tree"

 

is this considered OK for a LB Hybrid? If so, is it listed as such, or as a Multi or Mystery (since the box is not at the listed coords). If this is the case, why have a LB Hybrid option?

 

There's a local micro where the posted coords "bring you to the park sign." and that you must "Find it the old fashioned way" The only clue is the one on the cache page engouraging you to "think it under" whist on a bench. There are a number of benches in the place, so I'd assume the cache is near one of them. I haven't found it yet and if I'm sitting on a bench (or several benches as it may be) I'd rather it not be this cold out. It's listed as a traditional.

[+L0ne.R]

I also thought I would place a letterbox hybrid because there were none around. So I looked into letterboxing placed the container with a stamp in it, and typed up a list of clues to get you to the container from the posted coords to make it have the feel of a letterbox. Nope that was not going to work! The coords had to be for the location of the container or I had to list it as a multi. So I axed the clues. I even had finders ask where the clues where because letterboxes use clues.

 

Took the fun right out of it!

 

As I understand it from the guidelines, the only box type that must post the coordinates to the exact location is the "traditional" cache. From the guidelines: "The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache." Letterbox hybrids do not have to post the coordinates to the exact location. Although you do have to submit the final location coordinates (hidden, not posted publically) so that the reviewer can check that it meets guidelines and is far enough away from other caches. Is your reviewer insisting that you must post the coordinates of the exact location or just provide them for review?

 

Regarding the stamp, if you use a commercial stamp, it would be nice if it matches your theme or location.

A hand-carved stamp would make your box unique. And one that relates to the theme of your box or to the location would make it extra special.

[+tozainamboku]

The cache types, as they are defined now, are not mutually exclusive. The definitions are probably left this way to provide some flexibility for the cache hider and the reviewer in getting caches published. From the guidelines:

1. traditional caches
   • The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache.
     
   • Caches that require the geocacher to do something beyond finding the container and signing the logbook generally do not qualify as traditional caches.
     

[*]multi cache

• The posted coordinates are for the first stage
  
• There are many variations to multi-stage caches. [The guidelines give several examples. Special emphasis is given to the "offset" cache, where you go to a location and use information there or hints to find the final.]
  

[*]mystery cache

• The "catch-all" of cache types
  
• often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates
  
• Caches with mandatory requirements in addition to signing the logbook should be listed as mystery caches
  
• For many caches of this type, the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location
  

[*]letterbox hybrid

• Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache.
  
• They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box
  
• they must conform to the guidelines for geocaches and therefore must contain a logbook and involve GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. A letterbox hybrid cannot be designed to be found using only clues.
  

A cache that requires using a TOTT (such as bringing water to float a cache out of it's hiding place) is not specifically mentioned in the guidelines. I have seen these listed either as traditional or puzzles. Sometimes the hider makes it a puzzle to make it clear there is a problem to solve once you get to the cache location or sometimes it is listed as puzzle to make sure the cacher reads the page and knows to bring the TOTT. My guess is that this reviewer feels that it should be a mystery for one of those reasons.

At times a cache may meet the listing requirements for the site but the reviewers, as experienced cachers, may see additional concerns that you as a cache placer may not have noticed. As a courtesy, the reviewer may bring additional concerns about cache placement to your attention and offer suggestions before posting.

 

There doesn't really seem to be much purpose in having a letterbox hybrid type except to indicate that if there is a stamp it should remain with the cache (i.e. it is not a trade item). The concept was to allow the cache to be cross listed on a letterboxing site, but this is not a guideline for publishing on geocaching.com. It sounds like your reviewer is wrong here by insisting this be listed as multi. My preference would be for Geocaching.com to grandfather the letterbox hybrid type and add an attribute for letterbox hybrid so that reviewers won't have to deal with the confusion. As it stands now, one could make any cache a letterbox hybrid by putting a stamp in it. And I would contend the stamp isn't even necessary.

[CoyoteRed]

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

As a point of clarification: "...integral part..." Does that mean the hunt has to use grid coordinates or can it be an optional part?

 

For instance, I had a hybrid--now only listed as a pure letterbox, still there and still going strong--listed so that one could either use the pure letterbox clues which did not include any grid coordinates, or they could get out the GPS and find it as an offset. These were two completely separate paths that only met at the final. One path the hybrid is findable by clues alone while the other it is findable by coordinates alone. Would this still be publishable as a hybrid?

[+Taoiseach]

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

 

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

 

Letterbox hybrid caches MAY have letterbox style clues as part of the hunt, so long as they also have GPS usage.

 

Ok, that's what I always thought - Thanks for clearing that up. I can see how it can get a bit murky...

 

I take it that my example would be ok?

[J.A.R.S.]

My preference would be for Geocaching.com to grandfather the letterbox hybrid type and add an attribute for letterbox hybrid so that reviewers won't have to deal with the confusion. As it stands now, one could make any cache a letterbox hybrid by putting a stamp in it. And I would contend the stamp isn't even necessary.

 

Letterbox hybrids along with traditionals are my favorites. I've been planting and posting them here since 2002. Through the years the box type has always been contentious. It has ticked off some finders who thought that letterbox hybrids were traditionals - they get cheesed when they go home to check the listing and find that the box was not placed at the listed coordinates. Also there's too much confusion amongst reviewers about what "integral" means (a parking lot? a trailhead? half way from the parking lot to the box? the exact box location?). And I've seen stampless boxes granted the LBH icon simply because they also include directions to the box or they ask the finder to bring a stamp to impress into the cache's logbook. There's too just much confusion among finders, hiders and reviewers.

 

I'm beginning to see the positive aspects of grandfathering the LBH box type and adding a stamp attribute (I'd like to see 2 stamp attributes: a handcarved attribute and a commercial stamp attribute).

[+Castle Mischief]

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

 

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

 

Letterbox hybrid caches MAY have letterbox style clues as part of the hunt, so long as they also have GPS usage.

 

This is a little confusing. Are you saying that if the listed coordinates put you in a parking lot to start the hunt that this isn't GPS usage? Or are you saying that there must be some sort of coordinates to start the hunt, period.

 

The second statement is logical, the first one would seem to invalidate a few thousand caches.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Castle Mischief

[+Prime Suspect]

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

As a point of clarification: "...integral part..." Does that mean the hunt has to use grid coordinates or can it be an optional part?

 

For instance, I had a hybrid--now only listed as a pure letterbox, still there and still going strong--listed so that one could either use the pure letterbox clues which did not include any grid coordinates, or they could get out the GPS and find it as an offset. These were two completely separate paths that only met at the final. One path the hybrid is findable by clues alone while the other it is findable by coordinates alone. Would this still be publishable as a hybrid?

It means that if I want to search for it using my GPS instead of following clues, I should be able to.

[+briansnat]

Well, if that is the absolute end of it, then the term 'Letterbox' has no place in Geocaching., and should be grandfathered.

 

Letterboxing is a clue-based game, and therefore a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should include elements of both.

 

That shows a misunderstanding of the point of a letterbox hybrid. This is a geocaching website and we hide geocaches here. The point of a letterbox hybrid is not to provide geocachers with a letterbox-like experience. If they want that they should go to a letterboxing website. It is to allow geocachers to hide a container that is also available as a letterbox.

 

This doesn't mean that someone can't hide a letterbox hybrid that gives letterbox type clues. I see them all the time and its called an offset cache. But for it to be listed on this website GPS use has to be an integral part of the hunt and for it to be called a letterbox hybrid then it needs to have a stamp.

Edited January 22, 2009 by briansnat

[+TrailGators]

oops

Edited January 22, 2009 by TrailGators

[+TrailGators]

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

 

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

 

Letterbox hybrid caches MAY have letterbox style clues as part of the hunt, so long as they also have GPS usage.

 

This is a little confusing. Are you saying that if the listed coordinates put you in a parking lot to start the hunt that this isn't GPS usage? Or are you saying that there must be some sort of coordinates to start the hunt, period.

 

The second statement is logical, the first one would seem to invalidate a few thousand caches.

 

I was wondering the same thing. That statement makes it sound like all library caches are questionable....

[+Taoiseach]

Well, if that is the absolute end of it, then the term 'Letterbox' has no place in Geocaching., and should be grandfathered.

 

Letterboxing is a clue-based game, and therefore a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should include elements of both.

 

That shows a misunderstanding of the point of a letterbox hybrid. This is a geocaching website and we hide geocaches here. The point of a letterbox hybrid is not to provide geocachers with a letterbox-like experience. If they want that they should go to a letterboxing website. It is to allow geocachers to hide a container that is also available as a letterbox.

 

This doesn't mean that someone can't hide a letterbox hybrid that gives letterbox type clues. I see them all the time and its called an offset cache. But for it to be listed on this website GPS use has to be an integral part of the hunt and for it to be called a letterbox hybrid then it needs to have a stamp.

 

If I'm missing the point of a Letterbox Hybrid, then there is no point to having a separate cache type. It has nothing to do with letterboxing, it is simply a Geocache with a Stamp. I understand perfectly well that what we do here is 'Geocache,' however that being said, using the term 'letterbox' if letterboxing is not allowed is misleading, and should be grandfathered.

 

An example of what a Letterbox Hybrid should be something like this (Just a made up version of a Letterbox Hybrid that I'm planning to make

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Go to the posted co-ordinates.

 

Once at the posted co-ordinates, set a bearing of 100 degrees, and go 200 paces until you reach a house where a really 'cranky' man used to life. Continue on, underneath the bridge you see here, and when it's time. rise amongst the Valiants. At this time, cross the street, and pass by a memorial to our fallen soldiers. Continue along a bearing of 270 down a Street named for one of Philemon Wright's former 'employees.' Continue along until you meet a former local Magistrate named Daniel. Go south Down this street ten blocks before turning left for one block. Find a house that was once owned by a local Timber Baron. Near the Southeast corner of this house, there is a plaque.

 

Mark a waypoint at this plaque, and adjust it to N45 _ _._ _x W075 _ _._ _x. What year was this house built?

 

Continue south down a nearby street, and then west down a street named for a British Prime Minister, who was once named Ann. When you reach Toronto's Financial district, you will see a monument to some Barberpole clad warriors, next to a laundromat. What year did these Barberpole Warriors first claim their prize?

 

Take the Year that the house was built, divide that by ten, round it to the nearest whole number and subtract 130. This equals XXX

 

Take the year that the Barberpole warriors won their prize, and divide that by 100. That Equals Y.YYY

 

Project a waypoint from the Plaque Y.YYY Miles along a bearing of XXX Degrees True. There you will find your prize

 

-----------------------------------------

 

Of course it will have a hand-carved stamp (I've already made it), but this is what a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should be - Something that effectively is a Letterbox that requires the use of a GPSr

 

I can't see this as being contradictory to the guidelines, but if it is, then perhaps the guidelines pertaining to Letterbox Hybrids need to be changed somehow.

[+Castle Mischief]

Well, if that is the absolute end of it, then the term 'Letterbox' has no place in Geocaching., and should be grandfathered.

 

Letterboxing is a clue-based game, and therefore a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should include elements of both.

 

That shows a misunderstanding of the point of a letterbox hybrid. This is a geocaching website and we hide geocaches here. The point of a letterbox hybrid is not to provide geocachers with a letterbox-like experience. If they want that they should go to a letterboxing website. It is to allow geocachers to hide a container that is also available as a letterbox.

 

This doesn't mean that someone can't hide a letterbox hybrid that gives letterbox type clues. I see them all the time and its called an offset cache. But for it to be listed on this website GPS use has to be an integral part of the hunt and for it to be called a letterbox hybrid then it needs to have a stamp.

 

I'm still not clear on this. At what point does GPS use become "integral". If I used the GPS to find the starting point (parking lot, trail head, etc.) and then used clues to find the cache and there was a stamp in the cache- was that initial use of the GPS not integral enough to label this a letterbox-hybrid?

 

It would be useful to see an example that fits the optimal definition of integral GPS usage.

[+out12]

A letterbox I did a few years ago used a GPS to bring you to a box that held the letterboxing type directions to find the container. You used a GPS to find the directions that led you to the actual cache. That seems to be a good way of making a LBH rather than just place a cache at the listed coords and have a stamp in it.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

Oh dang! This reminds me to check on my letterbox!!!

 

Oh... the post... uhm, well, I think that you need to have a more indepth discussion with your reviewer about both cases. You aren't giving us very much information which leads me to believe that (1) the reviewer doesn't have all s/he needs to know; or (2) you're trying to paint the situation in your favour. Either way, make nice with the reviewer.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

The distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache is the presence of a letterboxing stamp.

 

All letterbox hybrid caches must include GPS use as an integral part of the hunt. They can't rely just on clues. Arriving at the park entrance sign or the parking lot really isn't GPS use.

 

Letterbox hybrid caches MAY have letterbox style clues as part of the hunt, so long as they also have GPS usage.

 

Of course, these are the requirements if the cache is going to be posted on geocaching.com. Is there any reason why it couldn't also be published on one of the letterboxing sites, but with traditional letterbox instructions for finding the container?

[+briansnat]

Well, if that is the absolute end of it, then the term 'Letterbox' has no place in Geocaching., and should be grandfathered.

 

Letterboxing is a clue-based game, and therefore a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should include elements of both.

 

That shows a misunderstanding of the point of a letterbox hybrid. This is a geocaching website and we hide geocaches here. The point of a letterbox hybrid is not to provide geocachers with a letterbox-like experience. If they want that they should go to a letterboxing website. It is to allow geocachers to hide a container that is also available as a letterbox.

 

This doesn't mean that someone can't hide a letterbox hybrid that gives letterbox type clues. I see them all the time and its called an offset cache. But for it to be listed on this website GPS use has to be an integral part of the hunt and for it to be called a letterbox hybrid then it needs to have a stamp.

 

If I'm missing the point of a Letterbox Hybrid, then there is no point to having a separate cache type. It has nothing to do with letterboxing, it is simply a Geocache with a Stamp. I understand perfectly well that what we do here is 'Geocache,' however that being said, using the term 'letterbox' if letterboxing is not allowed is misleading, and should be grandfathered.

 

An example of what a Letterbox Hybrid should be something like this (Just a made up version of a Letterbox Hybrid that I'm planning to make

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Go to the posted co-ordinates.

 

Once at the posted co-ordinates, set a bearing of 100 degrees, and go 200 paces until you reach a house where a really 'cranky' man used to life. Continue on, underneath the bridge you see here, and when it's time. rise amongst the Valiants. At this time, cross the street, and pass by a memorial to our fallen soldiers. Continue along a bearing of 270 down a Street named for one of Philemon Wright's former 'employees.' Continue along until you meet a former local Magistrate named Daniel. Go south Down this street ten blocks before turning left for one block. Find a house that was once owned by a local Timber Baron. Near the Southeast corner of this house, there is a plaque.

 

Mark a waypoint at this plaque, and adjust it to N45 _ _._ _x W075 _ _._ _x. What year was this house built?

 

Continue south down a nearby street, and then west down a street named for a British Prime Minister, who was once named Ann. When you reach Toronto's Financial district, you will see a monument to some Barberpole clad warriors, next to a laundromat. What year did these Barberpole Warriors first claim their prize?

 

Take the Year that the house was built, divide that by ten, round it to the nearest whole number and subtract 130. This equals XXX

 

Take the year that the Barberpole warriors won their prize, and divide that by 100. That Equals Y.YYY

 

Project a waypoint from the Plaque Y.YYY Miles along a bearing of XXX Degrees True. There you will find your prize

 

-----------------------------------------

 

Of course it will have a hand-carved stamp (I've already made it), but this is what a 'Letterbox Hybrid' should be - Something that effectively is a Letterbox that requires the use of a GPSr

 

I can't see this as being contradictory to the guidelines, but if it is, then perhaps the guidelines pertaining to Letterbox Hybrids need to be changed somehow.

 

What you have there is an offset cache which is a type of a multi. The only thing that makes it a letterbox hybrid is the stamp. Take that out and you have a multi.

 

As I mentioned earlier, the purpose of a letterbox hybrid is not to give geocachers a letterboxing experience. It is to make a cache that is also available as a letterbox.

 

 

Of course, these are the requirements if the cache is going to be posted on geocaching.com. Is there any reason why it couldn't also be published on one of the letterboxing sites, but with traditional letterbox instructions for finding the container?

 

No reason at all that you can't do that. In fact it would be kind of pointless to create a letterbox hybrid and not cross list it on a letterboxing site.

Edited January 22, 2009 by briansnat

[+Leaky Spoon]

The guidelines for the letterbox hybrids seem confusing that interpretation varies by reviewer. We tried to place one that the coordinates took you near a historic marker in the middle of the desert, and then had letterbox instructions for find the marker and container close by. The instructions were in a rather offset fashion, using math to find the coordinates that then had to be entered into a gps. This had to be changed to have coordinates take you straight to the container. We added letterbox instructions with coordiantes to make it both

 

However, a very short distance away, a different reviewer approves those very same types of letterbox hybrids that we wanted to place.

 

It did kinda suck the joy out of it, but certainly not worth too much fight

 

(edited for clarification)

Edited January 22, 2009 by Leaky Spoon

[Influence Waterfowl Calls]

Lets start here>>>>>> I AM NOT PAINTING THIS TO LOOK BETTER FOR ME!

 

I just don't want to give it away for the locals who will be finding it! I told you you need water! I gave the reviewer the details in the reviewer note. He said no. I sent the reviewer a specific email detailing the the cache and why I think it is a traditional. He said no! I sent another detailed email including the fact that I will just pull it and ebay the thing before I list it as a mystery. I am waiting to hear the response.

 

It is at the posted coords!

 

It is a single container!

 

There is no puzzle or mystery to solve to get the coords.

 

ETC.

 

He said that it would make the finder mad when he got there and did not have water and that even though there is a creek right there they may not have a container. My point is that there are plenty of "there it is and grab it" caches out there. Not to mention the infamous "usual pile of sticks". I do not have any cliffs in or near our town. Therefore I can not place a cache that would require rappelling equipment, which could be listed as a traditional.

 

I will say this too... I will place a cache on an island in a farm pond and when a cacher gets there and see that the arrow points to the island, that they did not expect, if they get mad then too bad! Go find another sport!!! I put a black container on a black locomotive and if you get mad because it takes more than one trip to find it then too bad! I am not out to make people mad I just want to spice things up a bit!

[+niraD]

As I mentioned earlier, the purpose of a letterbox hybrid is not to give geocachers a letterboxing experience. It is to make a cache that is also available as a letterbox.

Is this spelled out anywhere? Because that does not match my interpretation of the guidelines, and it does not match my experience with the one letterbox hybrid that I've found. My interpretation and my experience are that the letterbox hybrid uses letterbox-style clues, somehow incorporating the use of a GPSr (or at least, latitude and longitude, since some of us cache sans GPS) as "an integral part of the hunt".

[+niraD]

He said that it would make the finder mad when he got there and did not have water and that even though there is a creek right there they may not have a container.

Well, he does have a point. You could list it as a 5-star cache (because it needs "special equipment"). Then, anyone who shows up with just the coordinates shouldn't be surprised when they need to come back with the necessary equipment before they can retrieve the cache.

 

I've seen caches like this listed as Mystery/Puzzle caches, and I've seen them listed as 5-star "special equipment" Traditional caches. A lot depends on how you handle the need for certain equipment to retrieve the cache.

[+Taoiseach]

 

What you have there is an offset cache which is a type of a multi. The only thing that makes it a letterbox hybrid is the stamp. Take that out and you have a multi.

 

 

Ok, now we're just getting into semantics.

 

The Important thing! - Would that get approved as a Letterbox Hybrid, even if it is only on the merit of the stamp?

[+Harry Dolphin]

As I mentioned earlier, the purpose of a letterbox hybrid is not to give geocachers a letterboxing experience. It is to make a cache that is also available as a letterbox.

Is this spelled out anywhere? Because that does not match my interpretation of the guidelines, and it does not match my experience with the one letterbox hybrid that I've found. My interpretation and my experience are that the letterbox hybrid uses letterbox-style clues, somehow incorporating the use of a GPSr (or at least, latitude and longitude, since some of us cache sans GPS) as "an integral part of the hunt".

 

There had been some discussion in a forum which seemed to permit a letterbox experience while still requiring the use of a GPS as an integral part of the hunt. AFAIK, this has not changed. But different reviewers will interpret things diffeently.

[Keystone]

 

What you have there is an offset cache which is a type of a multi. The only thing that makes it a letterbox hybrid is the stamp. Take that out and you have a multi.

 

 

Ok, now we're just getting into semantics.

 

The Important thing! - Would that get approved as a Letterbox Hybrid, even if it is only on the merit of the stamp?

Sure. If it has a stamp, and involves GPS use somewhere in the hunt, it can be a letterbox hybrid geocache. This is true regardless of whether it's a "traditional" (located at the posted coords) or a "mystery" or a "multi" type of hunt. Letterbox-style clues are welcome but not required. Cross-listing to a letterbox site is welcome but not required.

 

I think folks are overanalyzing the situation. This includes the OP, who I think may have read too much into the notes exchanged with the cache reviewer at the time of publication for his first letterbox hybrid. If the OP submits a letterbox hybrid next month that relies on GPS use to bring the finder to a random spot in the woods, where a container holds letterbox-style clues to the final container with logbook and stamp, he will be pleasantly surprised by a speedy publication.

[Influence Waterfowl Calls]

Sorry there big Key... I set the LH up with coords that took you to a piece of an old bridge near the new bridge. from there I had the finder use clues to get to the final container, even down to the gun on the helicopter was pointing at the hiding spot a few feet away. The reviewer temp. disabled the cache and said that as it was set up it would be a multi and that a letterbox Hybrid had to be at the posted coords.

 

I am glad to hear that letterboxing type clues can be used! It will make the hides more interesting and give cachers who like it a reason to seek them out and hide them as well.

 

Is it OK to say that Keystone said it was ok if the reviewer will not go for it?

[+Taoiseach]

Sure. If it has a stamp, and involves GPS use somewhere in the hunt, it can be a letterbox hybrid geocache.

 

Excellent!

 

I just hope that CacheDrone sees it the same way - Either way, I'll get to work on my cache soon!

[+Prime Suspect]

I just don't want to give it away for the locals who will be finding it! I told you you need water! I gave the reviewer the details in the reviewer note. He said no. I sent the reviewer a specific email detailing the the cache and why I think it is a traditional. He said no! I sent another detailed email including the fact that I will just pull it and ebay the thing before I list it as a mystery. I am waiting to hear the response.

Sounds like an on-site puzzle to me.

[+Taoiseach]

I just don't want to give it away for the locals who will be finding it! I told you you need water! I gave the reviewer the details in the reviewer note. He said no. I sent the reviewer a specific email detailing the the cache and why I think it is a traditional. He said no! I sent another detailed email including the fact that I will just pull it and ebay the thing before I list it as a mystery. I am waiting to hear the response.

Sounds like an on-site puzzle to me.

 

To be perfectly honest, I do think that this one is an 'Unknown' cache (Not a Puzzle, but mot really a traditional)

 

Here's a solution - Put a stamp in it and call it a Letterbox Hybrid

[Influence Waterfowl Calls]

Brilliant!

[+briansnat]

 

What you have there is an offset cache which is a type of a multi. The only thing that makes it a letterbox hybrid is the stamp. Take that out and you have a multi.

 

 

Ok, now we're just getting into semantics.

 

The Important thing! - Would that get approved as a Letterbox Hybrid, even if it is only on the merit of the stamp?

 

It's not semantics, it's the guidelines. Take the stamp away and you have a multi. Add the stamp and you have a letterbox hybrid.

 

To really understand a letterbox hybrid you need to know the history of letterboxing vs. geocaching. When this site was started Jeremy saw the similarities between LBing and GCing and offered to host letterboxes here as well (their US website at the time was very rudimentary). LBers were aghast at the idea (us mixing with low brow geocachers? The horror!) so the idea was dropped, but not totally. Jeremy developed the idea of letterbox hybrids so that geocachers could create caches that appealed to both geocachers and letterboxers.

 

The point was not to provide geocachers with a letterboxing experience. It was to place a box in the wild that both communities could enjoy.

[+Taoiseach]

 

What you have there is an offset cache which is a type of a multi. The only thing that makes it a letterbox hybrid is the stamp. Take that out and you have a multi.

 

 

Ok, now we're just getting into semantics.

 

The Important thing! - Would that get approved as a Letterbox Hybrid, even if it is only on the merit of the stamp?

 

It's not semantics, it's the guidelines. Take the stamp away and you have a multi. Add the stamp and you have a letterbox hybrid.

 

To really understand a letterbox hybrid you need to know the history of letterboxing vs. geocaching. When this site was started Jeremy saw the similarities between LBing and GCing and offered to host letterboxes here as well (their US website at the time was very rudimentary). LBers were aghast at the idea (us mixing with low brow geocachers? The horror!) so the idea was dropped, but not totally. Jeremy developed the idea of letterbox hybrids so that geocachers could create caches that appealed to both geocachers and letterboxers.

 

The point was not to provide geocachers with a letterboxing experience. It was to place a box in the wild that both communities could enjoy.

 

Be that as it may, the guideline is very murky, and frankly poorly written. The fortunate thing is that it is so ambiguous that it allows for practically anything to be a Letterbox Hybrid, as long as it has that all important stamp. Though I might think that there needs to be at least one other criterion in addition to the stamp and GPS usage, in a requirement for at least one stage to use traditional letterbox style clues, I'm happy with the guideline as I and apparently Keystone (and seemingly you, considering the fact that you have said that mine would be a Letterbox, based on the stamp) understand it. It doesn't prohibit me to hide what I consider a Letterbox Hybrid in a true sense.

 

If Letterboxers once thought that about us, I'm sure that with the recent success, many letterboxers (particularly Letterbox Owners) wouldn't mind finding caches (or cachers finding letterboxes) as long as they do so using the traditional style.

 

Thanks to the way the guidelines are written, it is possible (as per at least one that I have found, and Keystone's apparent agreement with me) to hide a Letterbox style cache, and call it a Letterbox Hybrid, as long as you meet those two criteria. If both of those criteria are met, and in the case of Mystery/Unknown caches just the GPS requirement, it really is possible to provide cachers with many different experiences, from Orienteering, to cryptography, to Old Irish Literature, to Letterboxing

[+Castle Mischief]

 

I think folks are over-analyzing the situation.

 

Only because we are trying to reconcile what on the surface appear to be contradictory and confusing statements/interpretations/guidelines/experiences. I'm not married to one definition or another, I just want to know which we're using this week.

[+Taoiseach]

 

I think folks are over-analyzing the situation.

 

Only because we are trying to reconcile what on the surface appear to be contradictory and confusing statements/interpretations/guidelines/experiences. I'm not married to one definition or another, I just want to know which we're using this week.

 

From what I've gathered, for all intents and purposes, you need two things

 

1) The Letterbox Hybrid to use GPS Technology in some way

2) A Stamp (Preferably hand carved, but not necessarily)

[+Castle Mischief]

 

I think folks are over-analyzing the situation.

 

Only because we are trying to reconcile what on the surface appear to be contradictory and confusing statements/interpretations/guidelines/experiences. I'm not married to one definition or another, I just want to know which we're using this week.

 

From what I've gathered, for all intents and purposes, you need two things

 

1) The Letterbox Hybrid to use GPS Technology in some way

2) A Stamp (Preferably hand carved, but not necessarily)

 

I don't know. Sounds like if that was all we needed the the LB-hybrid in the OP would have been approved. Sounds to me like the first set of coordinates need to lead to a second set of coordinates to qualify. Also sounds like we need to avoid starting off the coordinates in the parking lot or near a trail head. Looks like there's some middle of the woods requirement for starting coords too.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Castle Mischief

[+Taoiseach]

 

I think folks are over-analyzing the situation.

 

Only because we are trying to reconcile what on the surface appear to be contradictory and confusing statements/interpretations/guidelines/experiences. I'm not married to one definition or another, I just want to know which we're using this week.

 

From what I've gathered, for all intents and purposes, you need two things

 

1) The Letterbox Hybrid to use GPS Technology in some way

2) A Stamp (Preferably hand carved, but not necessarily)

 

I don't know. Sounds like if that was all we needed the the LB-hybrid in the OP would have been approved. Sounds to me like the first set of coordinates need to lead to a second set of coordinates to qualify. Also sounds like we need to avoid starting off the coordinates in the parking lot or near a trail head. Looks like there's some middle of the woods requirement for starting coords too.

 

Bear in mind what Keystone said though -

 

Sure. If it has a stamp, and involves GPS use somewhere in the hunt, it can be a letterbox hybrid geocache. This is true regardless of whether it's a "traditional" (located at the posted coords) or a "mystery" or a "multi" type of hunt. Letterbox-style clues are welcome but not required. Cross-listing to a letterbox site is welcome but not required.

 

I think folks are overanalyzing the situation. This includes the OP, who I think may have read too much into the notes exchanged with the cache reviewer at the time of publication for his first letterbox hybrid. If the OP submits a letterbox hybrid next month that relies on GPS use to bring the finder to a random spot in the woods, where a container holds letterbox-style clues to the final container with logbook and stamp, he will be pleasantly surprised by a speedy publication.

[+tozainamboku]

 

I think folks are over-analyzing the situation.

 

Only because we are trying to reconcile what on the surface appear to be contradictory and confusing statements/interpretations/guidelines/experiences. I'm not married to one definition or another, I just want to know which we're using this week.

 

From what I've gathered, for all intents and purposes, you need two things

 

1) The Letterbox Hybrid to use GPS Technology in some way

2) A Stamp (Preferably hand carved, but not necessarily)

 

I don't know. Sounds like if that was all we needed the the LB-hybrid in the OP would have been approved. Sounds to me like clues/first set of coordinates need to lead to second set of coordinates to qualify. Also sounds like we need to avoid starting off the coordinates in the parking lot or near a trail head. Looks like there's some middle of the woods requirement for starting coords too.

Taoiseach is right in the what the guidelines say. It's really hard to tell the issue with the OP's cache as we are only getting one side of the story.

The way the OP states it is sounds like the reviewer was wrong in saying that the use of letterbox style clues makes the cache a multi and the letterbox hybrids have to be traditional caches where the cache was at the posted coordinates. In fact the guidelines used to say this - although it seems the use of the word traditional probably was never intended to limit letterbox hybrids to traditional caches. The guideline have since been updated to clarify that intention is that GPS usage must be a part of the hunt. Simply copying the page from the letterboxing site would not be sufficient.

 

briansnat's last post explains the orignal concept behind the hybrid best

The point was not to provide geocachers with a letterboxing experience. It was to place a box in the wild that both communities could enjoy.

Of course many people who were hiding these wanted to give geocachers some feeling of what letterboxing is about (and I hope on the letterbox site to give letterboxers a feeling for geocaching), so many of these caches do employ letterbox style hints. So much so that in many areas cachers (and reviewers) simply assume that letterbox hybrids are caches that use letterbox style clues.

[J.A.R.S.]

 

From what I've gathered, for all intents and purposes, you need two things

 

1) The Letterbox Hybrid to use GPS Technology in some way

2) A Stamp (Preferably hand carved, but not necessarily)

 

And there in lies the problem. Seems simple enough but:

 

1) Reviewers don't have a consensus about posted coordinates. Some feel that coords that start at trailheads and parking lots shouldn't be allowed, yet THs and PLs are OK for other cache types. Some feel that all LBHs should be multistaged where the first stage contains a set of instructions to get to the final stage. Some feel that LBHs are traditionals with a stamp, where the posted coords take you to the exact location.

2) Not all reviewers understand that a stamp must be included.

 

So how do people feel about grandfathering the LBH cache type and instead provide stamp attributes (hand-carved and commercial)? Would it be easier on reviewers?

[+Taoiseach]

So how do people feel about grandfathering the LBH cache type and instead provide stamp attributes (hand-carved and commercial)? Would it be easier on reviewers?

 

Let me hide one first...

[J.A.R.S.]

Jeremy developed the idea of letterbox hybrids so that geocachers could create caches that appealed to both geocachers and letterboxers.

 

From Jeremy Irish: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...t&p=2123673

 

So don't expect hybrids to go anywhere because they accomplish three goals:

 

1. Make people aware not to take the stamp and to introduce folks to a sister activity. (Just a mention to those who think otherwise, Geocaching did not spawn from letterboxing but was a completely different concept created without prior knowledge of letterboxing.)

 

2. Allow an alternate method for finding a geocache without a GPS receiver, and...

 

3. Provide a searching method for some letterboxes that have a starting coordinate.

[+Castle Mischief]

Okay, here's the answer. From the same post quoted above:

 

 

I think the reviewer got it right. I think some people are confused as to what a letterbox hybrid is. A letterbox hybrid is a geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is found LIKE a letterbox.

 

Right on the noggin. <snip>

 

Now I'm fine with this, but frankly the LB-hybrids I've leooked for or read the descriptions for did not follow this logic and the posted guidelines do not make this abundantly clear.

 

Re-word the guidelines and get all the reviewers on the same train.

[+Taoiseach]

From that same thread

 

A Letterbox Hybrid SHOULD involve clues to determine its location. If it was all done by Lat-Long then it would be a Multi.

 

Until very recently I owned a Letterbox Hybrid, and it was set up that way to have people tour a location via a different format.... and people seemed to really enjoy that aspect as it was unique in our area.

Quasy's Passport to Niagara

 

 

I for one do not like when a "Traditional Cache" gets listed as a Letterbox Hybrid based SOLELY on the fact that there is a stamp in it... there is more to LB's than a stamp.

 

Firetack caches as Letterbox instead of Multi... great idea! I am planning a Firetack cache for this summer... I just assumed Multi or Puzzle (used too often in my opinion).

 

I just find when I look at most Letterbox Hybrids... the person placing it didn't make the effort to make it interesting. They wanted the unique icon, but didn't want to make a unique cache to go with it.

 

The Blue Quasar

 

I think that this sums up my feelings on the matter quite nicely