Has caching turned into a P&G hobby?

January 22, 2009

Has caching turned into a Park & Grab hobby? Have many given up on the thrill of the hunt? I'm just curious how you all feel about the more difficult hides and if it is worth putting them out. Do you enjoy hunting for a cache that could take 3 or 4 visits to find. Or would it be better to conform to what it seems like everyone wants and just start hiding LPC's and nanos stuck stuck to the backs of signs and move on. It seems as time goes by more and more people are in it just for the numbers. All they want is to grab a quick smiley and then move onto the next. It almost seems not worth it to put out a cache that has any difficulty to the hide. If you decide to go against the flow and put something out that actually requires someone to have to put a little effort into their hunt it just turns into problems. First they start getting upset because the had to log a DNF, as time passes some cachers just don't care how much damage they do to an area to make the find. As more DNF's roll in then you risk the possibility of unpleasant logs and emails. Then after one or two finds you might as well downgrade the Difficulty on the cache due to the strong phone a friend networks that have popped up, since everyone is so willing to just tell everyone else exactly where it is. I've even seen where people have marked the location of difficult caches with rocks or even signs with arrows pointing out the cache to help out whoever else comes along to get their smiley. Which I feel is just plain wrong. If someone goes through the effort to put out a hard to find cache it's just not right for someone else to come along and ruin it. Not only are you ruining it for the hider of the cache you are also taking the fun out of it for cachers that do enjoy the hunt.

January 22, 2009

Has caching turned into a Park & Grab hobby? Have many given up on the thrill of the hunt?

Different people play the game in different ways. Some care about numbers and go for the easy ones, others love challenges, others take pride in designing unique caches and innovative hides.

There seem to be regional differences; there are some places where people are into tricky camo hides, others where it seems every cache's hint reads "It's under the bush". Play it the way you want to.

3.3k · January 22, 2009

The only thing that keeps me hiding nice cache in nice locations are the quality online logs people write.

When gas prices spiked to almost $5.00 per gallon, most of my remote caches were avoided like the plague. Now gas came down, people started hunting these caches again, and i'm getting the type of found it logs I enjoy reading.

I've said this before, as geocaching has become more mainstream, the number of couch potatoes turned geocachers have increased. So have the couch potato hides. Caches requiring extra effort get less visits. Another factor rarely mentioned is the increase of quality caches to be found. It seems more and more cachers have less time to hunt caches, and combine that with more good caches to be found, and you get less finds.

I've also noticed lots of old school cachers make good use of the ignore list, and would rather skip geocaching altogether, than find caches they dislike.

10.1k · January 22, 2009

Wow. That felt like one long run-on sentence.

No.

I do all sorts of caches! P&Gs. Long hikes. Mystery caches. 19 stage multis. All is fair game.

If that's all they want, that is their problem, not yours or mine.

Never had many problems on my tougher hides. Yes. I've seen PAF on them. Oh, well. Yes. I've even used PAF twice! Not generally how I play the game.

Yes. The arrows are tacky. Some people do not have good judgement. You can't win them all. But throwdowns are worse, in my estimation.

So, take a deep breath, Say "Oh, well", and continue with the game, if you so choose. You cannot control everyone. Not worth the attempt. Do the best you can, and have fun.

January 22, 2009

Well, I'll probably be blasted for this, but two things come to mind. 1) Don't sweat the small stuff, and 2) It's just a game. Put the effort into the cache. Those that enjoy the hunt will search for it and will certainly appreciate your effort. Those that don't enjoy the hunt and only want quickie caches to increase their numbers will complain about it, whine, and moan, but who cares. It's your cache, and you can create and hide it (within the guidlines of course) how you please. You can't control those that use their phone a friend any more than you can control those that give out the hints too easily. If someone is putting up clues to give away the cache location, go back and remove them on your next cache visit. It's all small stuff. It really sounds as if you're giving yourself an ulcer over it. It's just a game and really isn't important in the grand scheme. It's a hobby as you said. Everyone plays it differently, and that's a good thing. If someone wants to run up their numbers, that's their choice. But only you control your own actions, and if you decide to not put the effort into clever, difficult hides, then you're now playing the game "their" way instead of your own. Anyhow, that's how I see it, but I'm just newb.

January 22, 2009

I had similiar thoughts at one time but then took a moment to think about why we love our challenge caches (eg effort to get to) - because not everyone does and they build memories and adventures.

Some people say that the LPC's should be banned - but if we look at it that those these appeal to might instead be on their couch watching TV what is better for them? For Society - if that helps get people out and off the TV then so be it - we have the choice of going and getting them or not (and when there is 2 feet of snow on the ground it makes a nice diversion for a few hours)

And would we really want everyone out at those caches that I treasure? no then we may have a bigger impact on the environment in those areas - Some of our caches are easy, those that are are more for the "It's lastest how long there... " but many are out of the way - we just placed a challenge cache that likely will take 6 months to 1 year or more to complete - it's geared to get people to those terrain 5's and interact in all fashions of caching and make it fun

As well where would we prefer people to learn to place caches? in a location where little damage is likely to occur I say..

So each has it's benefit, I for one am greatful that there are a few LPC's as when my schedule is full at least I don't have go to weeks without caching..

1.3k · January 22, 2009

First I have to say that if people are tearing up the area where you hid a cache, you might want to consider hiding it somewhere that can take the abuse a little better.

Aside from that I've had a few caches that required more than one trip to find and a few more that I never found. I get a little frustrated at times but it's all part of the game. I would never consider abusing the cache owner over my inability to find their cache. If you have rated the cache appropriately and you are getting this type of response I wouldn't sweat it. The problem lies with the seeker, not the hider.

January 22, 2009

I encourage the placing of increased difficulty/terrain caches. To me, caching is about the challenge and out door experience. To reduce bad feedback, you could make them premium member only caches. I feel that paying members are more respectful of caches and more likely to play fair while appreciating your efforts.

3.6k · January 22, 2009

In CT where I live, numbers don't mean that much to people. Cachers here don't care if someone has 300 finds or 3000. Most everyone is about the thrill of the hunt, whether it's a park and grab or a long hike.

We enjoy all types of caches. Some weekends we're interested in doing long hikes and finding some challenging terrain caches deep in the woods and other times we want to go out and find 40 P&Gs.

We're also not opposed to hard caches both terrain & difficulty-wise. If we're doing a numbers run, we'll filter out higher terrain caches but will look for the high difficulty ones. Logging DNFs is no big deal, though I'd obviously rather find the cache. If we're hiking in the woods, we'll look for all the caches along the trail no matter what their ratings.

January 22, 2009

Delurking.....

I've seen a fair number of Park'n'grab caches, and I have one or two out there like this. But I put these near areas like rest stops or park and ride lots where travelers could get off the interstate, pick up a cache or two, and head back down the road. The park-n-grab stuff does serve a purpose if used judiciously, IMHO. But I am at the point where if I see that a cache is a nano or film canister or the dread key-magnet under the light pole cover, I usually give it a pass. It's more fun if there is at least a semblance of a challenge, after all.

I still like to see something that gives me a challenge, and a cache container that has a decent amount of loot in it. There's a 4-stage cache in my area that I've made 5-6 attempts to find over 3-4 years, and I still haven't got it. The directions are just a bit vague, and the tree cover at the last stage is dense enough to interfere with the signal, and thick enough to make it a chore walking through the brush. When spring gets here and the ground dries, I'll give it another go. Maybe the 12th time is the charm?

And a quick question - LPC? Light Pole Cover? Little Plastic Canister?

1.3k · January 22, 2009

I went on a 3.354 mile hike today just to go for 1 cache; I found a second one, but no hiking needed for that one. I did write quite a long log too. So I like the ones that take me places; parking lot caches are getting boring, unless there's something to go to in that parking lot; like say a Kaspers Hot Dog place

January 22, 2009

I have to agree with the others.

I enjoy all types. I have to be honest though and admit to never trying a 19 part multi but I wouldn't be adverse to it or say they should be banned just because I don't like them.

When I'm working if I have 30 minutes to get to my next stop that's 10 minutes away and there are 3 LPCs between here and there, guess what I'm going to do. On the flip side, if I am planning a trip I definitely include some hiking to enjoy the scenery.

I think everyone should play the way they like. If you place a quality cache it will be found by those that enjoy quality finds. Don't worry about those that want you to make only easy finds so they can do nothing but numbers runs.

6.7k · January 22, 2009

Take a deep breath and sigh.

Feel better? Hope so.

Now, yes, lots of people ejoy going from p&g to p&g pumping up their numbers. There isn't anything wrong with that. Let them have their fun. Others are into the log hike in scenic places. They enjoy the journey but have no interest in examining every stone in a big pile to find the one with a GC.com logo on it. They detest the needle in the haystack hide. That's fine to. Others are into puzzles. They enjoy spending hours solving obscure ciphers, riddles and such. Point is that each person finds his own way of having fun with this hobby. Phone a friends are only doing it to themselves. Not going to say it is good or bad but it doesn't stop those looking for the challenge from finding it the hard way. These people are more into a social aspect of the game. They want to connect with others. Still just a matter of each finding fun in their own way.

If you are having trouble with people putting out signs like arrows on rocks and such I'll agree, that is an annoyance. It cheats others of the chance at doing it the hard way if they chose. It's this kind of thing that makes it necessary to do maintenance runs even when you haven't gotten reports. I have no idea why people would do that kind of crap.

Then we have the whole "tore up the area" thing. You need to take human nature into account when you hide a cache. Some places can take the abuse without a problem. Less tolerant environments cant. Fragile echo systems that can't should be left alone. That said there are many places in between. The cache needs to be appropriate to the location. Some times we hiders need to show a bit of restraint when we make a hide. I find it useful to avoid the needle in the haystack type hide, but that is me. If you like this kind of thing just be certain that the area can handle it.

It boils down to two simple sentences. Hide what you enjoy and someone will enjoy finding it. And you can't please everyone.

Happy Caching.

January 22, 2009

P&G? Nah. Some of 'em you don't even have to park.

3.6k · January 22, 2009

P&G? Nah. Some of 'em you don't even have to park.

I've always wanted to find a true "drive up" cache.

January 22, 2009

P&G? Nah. Some of 'em you don't even have to park.

I've always wanted to find a true "drive up" cache.

I will have to look for which one, but I actually have done an LPC through the window.

7.3k · January 22, 2009

Do you enjoy hunting for a cache that could take 3 or 4 visits to find.

No, probably not.

It almost seems not worth it to put out a cache that has any difficulty to the hide.

There are a couple of hiders of difficult caches north of me. You've hunted their stuff. Prolific hiders, they mostly hide caches in the 1.5 - 2 range (difficulty) and not high terrain. But, they do hide some harder things. Just not much of it. And those will be hidden and archived after a while. The people that are interested have found them.

Personally, I'm not that fond of high difficulty in the hide - I'm in it for the hikes/bikes/ and paddlin'. But those hides don't bother me a bit. I'm not hunting them.

Or would it be better to conform to what it seems like everyone wants and just start hiding LPC's and nanos stuck stuck to the backs of signs and move on.

Hide what you like. Having said that, my two most found caches are pretty borderline in terms of being "what I like". The caches that I own that are really really what I like are the 'yak caches and multis. . I've got a number of those that are well over a year since the last find. Oh well, I'll still stick to hide what you like.

2.5k · January 22, 2009

Geocaching is what ever you want to make it. You don't have to do the P&Gs. Leave them for the others.

38.2k · January 22, 2009

I think it's a regional thing. In this area the vast majority of caches involve at least a bit of a walk and many require a good hike. The roadside guardrail hides are minimal and I think a LPC might still fool half of the local geocachers.

I've been to some areas though where few guardrails, strip malls and big box store parking lots are without caches and every local and his mother has 1,000+ finds, with probably no more than 100 involving a walk of more than 200 feet.

All I can say is that I'm glad that I live where I do and when I visit those other areas I do little or no geocaching these days.

Edited January 22, 2009 by briansnat

6.7k · January 22, 2009

Has caching turned into a Park & Grab hobby? Have many given up on the thrill of the hunt? I'm just curious how you all feel about the more difficult hides and if it is worth putting them out. Do you enjoy hunting for a cache that could take 3 or 4 visits to find. Or would it be better to conform to what it seems like everyone wants and just start hiding LPC's and nanos stuck stuck to the backs of signs and move on. It seems as time goes by more and more people are in it just for the numbers. All they want is to grab a quick smiley and then move onto the next. It almost seems not worth it to put out a cache that has any difficulty to the hide. If you decide to go against the flow and put something out that actually requires someone to have to put a little effort into their hunt it just turns into problems. First they start getting upset because the had to log a DNF, as time passes some cachers just don't care how much damage they do to an area to make the find. As more DNF's roll in then you risk the possibility of unpleasant logs and emails. Then after one or two finds you might as well downgrade the Difficulty on the cache due to the strong phone a friend networks that have popped up, since everyone is so willing to just tell everyone else exactly where it is. I've even seen where people have marked the location of difficult caches with rocks or even signs with arrows pointing out the cache to help out whoever else comes along to get their smiley. Which I feel is just plain wrong. If someone goes through the effort to put out a hard to find cache it's just not right for someone else to come along and ruin it. Not only are you ruining it for the hider of the cache you are also taking the fun out of it for cachers that do enjoy the hunt.

Of the 51 caches you own in zip code 32401 11 are micros, and all 51 seem to be rated fairly easy; I don't see any obvious park-n-grabs but no tough high-rated caches whose demise you bemoan either. You have 1 rated 3 difficulty and 1 rated 3.5 difficulty, both are rated 1.5 terrain.

Hide them like you like to find them?

Of a PQ of 500 caches in your zip code 32401 only 40% (202) are micros, only 8.4% (42) are rated 1/1 (the usual indicator of a P&G), 70% (352) have terrain/difficulty greater than or equal to 1.5/1.5 and 211 have a greater difficulty than 2. That doesn't sound much like "a P&G hobby" to me.

On the Phone-a-Friend issue, putting "Please do not give hints to others, let cachers file a DNF or contact me if they can't find it." on the cache page would stop the PAF network from giving away your caches.

The arrows and markings pointing to your caches are unforgivable.

Edit to add: looking at your hide stats is in no way an attack... I would like to come hunt your caches. I am just trying to understand what you're getting at with the OP. I have great appreciation for prolific hiders, no matter what they are. Thanks!

Edited January 22, 2009 by TheAlabamaRambler

14.3k · January 22, 2009

It almost seems not worth it to put out a cache that has any difficulty to the hide. If you decide to go against the flow and put something out that actually requires someone to have to put a little effort into their hunt it just turns into problems. First they start getting upset because the had to log a DNF.

The big reason that there are difficulty and terrain ratings is so people that prefer those types of caches have something to hunt. So forget about going with the flow and join the group that likes the same caches that you do. We may be a minority but we are out there!

6.7k · January 22, 2009

On the Phone-a-Friend issue, putting "Please do not give hints to others, let cachers file a DNF or contact me if they can't find it." on the cache page would stop the PAF network from giving away your caches.

You have an optimistic outlook. What stops is the admission in the logs.

2.5k · January 22, 2009

It seems as time goes by more and more people are in it just for the numbers. All they want is to grab a quick smiley and then move onto the next.

I'm sorry...I don't usually reply with tart responses, really I don't...but I just can't help myself this time.

I looked at your stats (That's something else I rarely do, not really caring how many caches someone else has anyway). You've been caching two years less than I have and you have more than twice as many caches as I do.

Our last trip we went over 1600 miles. I had 1000 hand-picked caches in my gps, so we could have just gone for a record run and found plenty of caches. We were gone 8 or 9 days and we found only 44 caches the whole trip (and had four DNFs). Fourteen of the ones we found were EarthCaches. Some of those EarthCaches were miles off our main route, and we went there just to do those caches. At least three times on the trip, we ended up hanging out at a location for hours, instead of pressing on to find more caches, just because the area was so enjoyable.

Five years into this, we are still having a blast caching, and no, I don't think anything much has changed about geocaching in the time I have been doing it. Honestly, if you feel otherwise, maybe it's time to reexamine your focus. I figure it's 'sposed to be fun.

6.7k · January 22, 2009

On the Phone-a-Friend issue, putting "Please do not give hints to others, let cachers file a DNF or contact me if they can't find it." on the cache page would stop the PAF network from giving away your caches.

You have an optimistic outlook. What stops is the admission in the logs.

Your mileage may vary, but here in Alabama we have a huge PAF network. It's a rare day that I don't get a call from someone wanting a hint on a cache somewhere in the state. If I know that the owner does not want hints given I don't, and the others in our PAF network do the same. I think you'd be surprised at how much cachers respect cache owner's wishes.

14.3k · January 22, 2009

On the Phone-a-Friend issue, putting "Please do not give hints to others, let cachers file a DNF or contact me if they can't find it." on the cache page would stop the PAF network from giving away your caches.

You have an optimistic outlook. What stops is the admission in the logs.

That's what will happen. I have used PAF. I have used it after giving up and I admit doing it in my log. However, if the cache owner specifically writes something against doing it on the cache page then I wouldn't do it. Then if I DNFed a cache like that, I'd add it to my ignore list to get it out of future PQs. Then I'd ask someone that has found it where the heck the darn thing was. Curiosity was the main reason I used PAF.

1k · January 22, 2009

I prefer to go out on hikes along the river with my dog and kids. My kids like to do ones at local parks so they can play on the swings and slides after finding the cache. There are days when I can't get out and just want to find a few and will do the LPC's and such just to get everyone out of the house.

For me, it depends on who I am with and how much time I have. As you can see from my profile that I do not go out everyday and I usually don't find a lot when I go out. There are some days I go back to caches that I have found on my own with my kids so that they can find them. We just like spending the time together.

January 22, 2009

I simply refuse to hide a P and G. I will hunt P and Gs, micro or not, all the while telling myself how much I hate P and G micros (which by the way seems to be the only type folks around here hide anymore). I am not in it for the numbers. You can tell that by how long I have been caching and my total finds on my stats and I only have 2 cache hides, but they require effort to reach. I want to place more caches but our area is not too conducive to placing very challenging caches. By challenging, I mean those that are far off the beaten path because I don't particularly care for puzzle caches either. Just my0.2 worth.

January 22, 2009

I think to handicapped cachers, an increase in P&Gs is a sort of godsend. Sometimes I may have to bring someone who can't get around very well, and can't walk very far(My dad). It sucks to sit in the car while someone else is doing a hike/climb/run/find. Maybe you should hide and encourage others to hide the sort of caches you like, but to those of us interested in bringing people who have trouble getting around, an increase in 1/1 park and grabs is not the end of the hunt. It just means that even though we're tied down we can keep hunting.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Mredria

January 22, 2009

I think to handicapped cachers, an increase in P&Gs is a sort of godsend.

Excellent point! I have felt guilty a couple of times because all of my hides are not handicapp accessible, as there are a few handicapped folks who like to play too.

Edited January 22, 2009 by vwaldoguy

January 22, 2009

It's all small stuff. It really sounds as if you're giving yourself an ulcer over it.

Guess I might have come across wrong earlier. It is all small stuff and I can guarantee you that I'm not losing any sleep over any of it. I was just kind of curious to how others felt on tougher hides.

Take a deep breath and sigh.

Feel better? Hope so.

Even though I'm not as stressed as I made myself out to be it did make me feel better

If you are having trouble with people putting out signs like arrows on rocks and such I'll agree, that is an annoyance. It cheats others of the chance at doing it the hard way if they chose. It's this kind of thing that makes it necessary to do maintenance runs even when you haven't gotten reports. I have no idea why people would do that kind of crap.

While this hasn't happened to me yet, it has happened to another cacher in my area and I just think it was totally wrong. I put that in to see if anyone else has really encountered it or is it something unique to our area.

Then we have the whole "tore up the area" thing. You need to take human nature into account when you hide a cache. Some places can take the abuse without a problem. Less tolerant environments cant. Fragile echo systems that can't should be left alone. That said there are many places in between. The cache needs to be appropriate to the location. .

You're right about the human nature factor. But I have seen caches where some have gotten so frustrated with finding a cache that they actually brought out shovels and started digging up areas. While placing a cache that is not something that you would even really consider someone doing.

It boils down to two simple sentences. Hide what you enjoy and someone will enjoy finding it. And you can't please everyone.

Happy Caching.

That's probably the best advice you could give

Of the 51 caches you own in zip code 32401 11 are micros, and all 51 seem to be rated fairly easy; I don't see any obvious park-n-grabs but no tough high-rated caches whose demise you bemoan either. You have 1 rated 3 difficulty and 1 rated 3.5 difficulty, both are rated 1.5 terrain.

Hide them like you like to find them?

While most of mine are fairly easy I do try to bring you to a places you might not have known was there or has a nice view. Right now my hardest is the 3.5 and I'm thinking maybe I need to up it since that is where the problem seems to be at this time.

Edit to add: looking at your hide stats is in no way an attack... I would like to come hunt your caches. I am just trying to understand what you're getting at with the OP. I have great appreciation for prolific hiders, no matter what they are. Thanks!

In no way did I take any of the responses as an attack and you would be welcome in our area anytime.

I was just trying to get a feel how you all feel about tougher hides. I'm about to team up with another cacher in the area and put out a series of caches that is going to be all about the hunt. Every one of them should be a challenge to find and I'm hoping that we don't run into to many of the problems I listed in the original post. With the new series it will be spelled out clearly in the description that if you are not looking to spend time hunting and are more interested in grabbing a smiley that you should probably pass this one up and move on.

8k · January 22, 2009

When I read the OP it made me want to go down to Baskin-Robbins for some ice cream. Now, which flavor?

On the Phone-a-Friend issue, putting "Please do not give hints to others, let cachers file a DNF or contact me if they can't find it." on the cache page would stop the PAF network from giving away your caches.

You have an optimistic outlook. What stops is the admission in the logs.

I'm not sure what the OP has against people who go the phone-a-friend route. Those who do like challenging caches and want to find it themselves or with only the hints the cache owner gives can still hunt them that way. Those who are only interested in the numbers or who don't like to log DNFs can phone-a-friend just the same way some people peek at the answers when doing a crossword. I'd rather they honestly say that they phoned a friend so that someone else who wants to do it on their own doesn't get the idea that the cache is easier than it really is. In any case, phone-a-friend is better than tearing up an area looking for a cache - which is inexcusable.

January 22, 2009

I think to handicapped cachers, an increase in P&Gs is a sort of godsend. Sometimes I may have to bring someone who can't get around very well, and can't walk very far(My dad). It sucks to sit in the car while someone else is doing a hike/climb/run/find. Maybe you should hide and encourage others to hide the sort of caches you like, but to those of us interested in bringing people who have trouble getting around, an increase in 1/1 park and grabs is not the end of the hunt. It just means that even though we're tied down we can keep hunting.

Excellent point Mredria. I had not really looked at it from that perspective and it certainly changes my attitude to a degree.......although the area in which I live is a P and G micro lovers haven.

3.3k · January 22, 2009

I think to handicapped cachers, an increase in P&Gs is a sort of godsend. Sometimes I may have to bring someone who can't get around very well, and can't walk very far(My dad). It sucks to sit in the car while someone else is doing a hike/climb/run/find. Maybe you should hide and encourage others to hide the sort of caches you like, but to those of us interested in bringing people who have trouble getting around, an increase in 1/1 park and grabs is not the end of the hunt. It just means that even though we're tied down we can keep hunting.

I think to handicapped cachers, an increase in P&Gs is a sort of godsend.

Excellent point! I have felt guilty a couple of times because all of my hides are not handicapp accessible, as there are a few handicapped folks who like to play too.

I've always felt handicapped cachers deserve better than lamppost caches hidden in parking lots.

January 22, 2009

I like park and grabs- well maybe- when I'm traveling because I often don't have the time to hunt for anything more. That's when those attributes for, can be done in less than an hour, are great. Even better if the cache description mentions the word "trail".

Any cache can become more than a park and grab simply by parking far enough away so that you have to take a little stroll over to the cache. I will sometimes walk/hike to a cache across town that I could easily drive up to.

18.9k · January 22, 2009

Sadly some areas have become overrun with p&g type caches but I still find plenty of caches to go looking for that involve a bit more of walk or at least a nice drive out in the country. Some kind of reason to visit other than a cache.

I wish many cachers would raise the bar a bit on hides but Geocaching is what you make of it in many cases. Stay clear of P&G areas and be more selective on what you will look for. Doesn't work very effectively but better than blindly running into the trash.

8k · January 22, 2009

I've always felt handicapped cachers deserve better than lamppost caches hidden in parking lots.

It may be that handicapped cachers get just as bored as everyone else seeing the same type of hide over and over. And it may be that handicapped cachers might prefer going a nicer location than the parking lot at the mall. But there are not all that many able bodied cachers that can get to some of Kit Fox's caches. There is nothing wrong with a cache that is a few feet from the parking, on level ground. There are many cachers that appreciate these. Even some who have just spent a day climbing to a Kit Fox cache and now too sore to do any more than a P&G

Edited January 22, 2009 by tozainamboku

January 22, 2009

I have placed all kinds of caches but now I want to focus on unique and tougher caches. So I placed one that is at the posted coords and there is no puzzle to solve to get the coords but my reviewer wants me to list it as a mystery cache because there is a unique way to retrieve it. This can all be done standing at the posted coords mind you. If they did not bring the needed item it is available near by. I said that it is no different than getting to GZ and seeing that you should have brought the rappelling gear but that there will not be rappelling gear laying out in the woods. Forget about the fact that I would not use it if it was.

I also thought I would place a letterbox hybrid because there were none around. So I looked into letterboxing placed the container with a stamp in it, and typed up a list of clues to get you to the container from the posted coords to make it have the feel of a letterbox. Nope that was not going to work! The coords had to be for the location of the container or I had to list it as a multi. So I axed the clues. I even had finders ask where the clues where because letterboxes use clues.

Took the fun right out of it!

38.2k · January 22, 2009

I think to handicapped cachers, an increase in P&Gs is a sort of godsend.

Excellent point! I have felt guilty a couple of times because all of my hides are not handicapp accessible, as there are a few handicapped folks who like to play too.

As someone who spent several months on crutches, I can assure you that not all handicapped cachers are thrilled by the idea of flitting between every guardrail and strip mall in the area.

Easily accessible caches in interesting places = great.

P&Gs with no redeeming value other than a quick smiley = no thanks.

January 22, 2009

This is going to sound self serving, but it does apply.

I recently ( 2 days ago) started a website Cacheguide.com. This sites specific intent is to help cachers be more selective on their caches. There are no bad caches, and geocaching.com treats them all the same, but sometimes you are looking for a long hike and sometimes a P&G. The goal of the site is to highlight and reward (though visibility) those who have placed good and great caches. Hopefully this will encourage others to be creative and place more challenging caches than just LPCs.

Now, admittedly there is not much there yet in 2 days, but if you have done a great cache in your area, let others know. It can be tough to cut through the clutter of the 718,00+ active caches.

As for my preference, I P&G with my 5 year old mostly, since she does not have the attention span to spend hours in one day on 1 cache. When I am alone, I prefer the longer walks.

3.3k · January 22, 2009

I've always felt handicapped cachers deserve better than lamppost caches hidden in parking lots.

It may be that handicapped cachers get just as bored as everyone else seeing the same type of hide over and over. And it may be that handicapped cachers might prefer going a nicer location than the parking lot at the mall. But there are not all that many able bodied cachers that can get to some of Kit Fox's caches. There is nothing wrong with a cache that is a few feet from the parking, on level ground. There are many cachers that appreciate these. Even some who have just spent a day climbing to a Kit Fox cache and now too sore to do any more than a P&G

Not all of my geocaches are that hard to find or hard to reach. My most recent hides are all low terrain caches

The Musical Road (2 star terrain)

Desert Fortress (2 star terrain)

Pearblossom Park Cache (1 1/2 star terrain)

Edited January 22, 2009 by Kit Fox

January 22, 2009

I guess you can broaden the discussion towards FTFs and all stats related stuff. One often sees a rush towards a cache for a FTF. After that, the cache isn't attractive anymore if the difficulty is a bit higher and then only the die hards will pass by.

9.3k · January 22, 2009

Has caching turned into a Park & Grab hobby?

To address this part of your question:

Yes, I think the game is devolving toward the P&G mentality. Regionally, the percentage of micros is dang near 50%. My personal experience is that, almost every hide around here whose size is not listed is also a micro, sending the 50% mark even higher. In a game with 6 possible choices, (micro, small, medium, regular, large and not listed), a mathematically perfect proportion would be about 15% micros. The percentage of hides lower than a 2/2 is even larger. There are literally a butt load of hides around here custom tailored for those folks who are either unwilling or unable to walk more than 50' from their vehicles.

So, is this a bad thing? Is it a good thing? I'd say it's no more than the end result of personal preference. While this gives me lots & lots of hides that don't appeal to me, the overall number of new caches that do appeal to me is still increasing faster than I can find them, so I'm not likely to run out of fun hides any time in the near future. Also, as a premium member, Groundspeak gives me some tools that really help weed out those caches which don't appeal to me, so from a PQ perspective, all I see are gobs of fun hides for me to find.

No worries here. The P&Gs are on the rise, but they aren't that big an issue for me.

9.3k · January 22, 2009

Easily accessible caches in interesting places = great.

P&Gs with no redeeming value other than a quick smiley = no thanks.

As usual, an excellent post by Brian.

Assuming that cachers won't enjoy a creative, challenging hide simply because they happen to be physically handicapped is insulting at best.

Just because someone's legs don't work so well, doesn't mean their brains don't function.

$0.02 from an ol' fat crippled guy...

7.3k · January 22, 2009

I think the thread has wandered a bit from the OP's question about difficulty in the hide to terrain, in part because the original post and title referenced Park and Grab, which sent the thread down the "50 feet from the parking" direction.

I believe he was really getting at the question of fondness (or lack of it) for a tough hide.

There is only a small set of folks who consider a 3.5 - 5 difficulty cache to be ideal. Your high difficulty caches, fairly near roads, are bothering people. The hide is right there, in the area where they expect to find everything, but they can't find it. (The opposite, high terrain, low/medium difficulty cache isn't bothering anybody much, mostly they're never getting close enough to it to be frustrated).

I agree with The Alabama Rambler, that noting that you'll give hints after a DNF is logged, and please don't use PAF will actually work a great deal of the time. But I also agree with tozainamboku that you're really better off leaving the PAF network alone. Those who want a tough hunt can have it, and those who are getting frustrated and starting to tear things up, can use PAF.

And in spite of anything you do, there are just some lunkheads that are going to grab saws, machetes, and shovels. Hopefully those guys will lose interest and find another hobby shortly.

20.7k · January 22, 2009

I've always felt handicapped cachers deserve better than lamppost caches hidden in parking lots.

As someone who spent several months on crutches, I can assure you that not all handicapped cachers are thrilled by the idea of flitting between every guardrail and strip mall in the area.

Easily accessible caches in interesting places = great.

P&Gs with no redeeming value other than a quick smiley = no thanks.

If you (collective 'you') believe that there is a need for easily accessible, yet 'more interesting' caches, feel free to hide some. Otherwise, I it would appear that you are just trying to muddy the waters.

Like BS, I have also spent several months hobbled. During that time, when I did get out to look for a few caches, I was very thankful that some of the local geocachers hid caches on signs, under lamppost covers, and on gaurdrails for me to find.

Of course, I realize that there are some of us that don't find enjoyment in the same ways that I do. Some also that feel that they are not responsible for their own fun and like to ridicule those others that don't live up to their personal expectations. I don't think much of people like that.

Edited January 22, 2009 by sbell111

January 22, 2009

Has caching turned into a Park & Grab hobby?

To address this part of your question:

Yes, I think the game is devolving toward the P&G mentality. Regionally, the percentage of micros is dang near 50%. My personal experience is that, almost every hide around here whose size is not listed is also a micro, sending the 50% mark even higher. In a game with 6 possible choices, (micro, small, medium, regular, large and not listed), a mathematically perfect proportion would be about 15% micros. The percentage of hides lower than a 2/2 is even larger. There are literally a butt load of hides around here custom tailored for those folks who are either unwilling or unable to walk more than 50' from their vehicles.

So, is this a bad thing? Is it a good thing? I'd say it's no more than the end result of personal preference. While this gives me lots & lots of hides that don't appeal to me, the overall number of new caches that do appeal to me is still increasing faster than I can find them, so I'm not likely to run out of fun hides any time in the near future. Also, as a premium member, Groundspeak gives me some tools that really help weed out those caches which don't appeal to me, so from a PQ perspective, all I see are gobs of fun hides for me to find.

No worries here. The P&Gs are on the rise, but they aren't that big an issue for me.

Agreed, not an issue because you can screen out (ignore) most of the P&Gs. For many Geocaching has become a numbers game, but personally I'd rather find one or two worthwhile caches in a weekend, than a 200 guardrail or LPCs.

6.7k · January 22, 2009

I've always felt handicapped cachers deserve better than lamppost caches hidden in parking lots.

As someone who spent several months on crutches, I can assure you that not all handicapped cachers are thrilled by the idea of flitting between every guardrail and strip mall in the area.

Easily accessible caches in interesting places = great.

P&Gs with no redeeming value other than a quick smiley = no thanks.

If you (collective 'you') believe that there is a need for easily accessible, yet 'more interesting' caches, feel free to hide some. Otherwise, I it would appear that you are just trying to muddy the waters.

Like BS, I have also spent several months hobbled. During that time, when I did get out to look for a few caches, I was very thankful that some of the local geocachers hid caches on signs, under lamppost covers, and on gaurdrails for me to find.

Of course, I realize that there are some of us that don't find enjoyment in the same ways that I do. Some also that feel that they are not responsible for their own fun and like to ridicule those others that don't live up to their personal expectations. I don't think much of people like that.

Us lame folks don't need lame caches! I cache in a wheelchair or on crutches and have managed to find my share of caches over the years. Yes, easy terrain is certainly helpful, but that has nothing to do with the difficulty level! The idea that we need P&Gs is false. If you want to consider handicap accessible terrain for some of your caches, great, but you don't have to make them easy to find... we're crippled, not stupid!

On the other hand I occasionally cache with groups where large numbers of caches are the goal... we'll set out to get 100 a day or something. In those cases P&Gs are the order of the day.

Then sometimes I will want to go for a walk and will go after one remote cache that takes me all day.

This game continues to be blessed with plenty of caches for every choice and every cacher.

1.2k · January 22, 2009

{quote]Agreed, not an issue because you can screen out (ignore) most of the P&Gs. For many Geocaching has become a numbers game, but personally I'd rather find one or two worthwhile caches in a weekend, than a 200 guardrail or LPCs.

AMEN!

January 22, 2009

I guess what you see in this country (Netherlands) is two types of caches that people are travelling the entire country for.

Category 1 is "Quantity series", as many tradi's as possible close together. Category 2 are the heavy night caches,challenging multi's, etc. The thing that you gather a group of 6, jump in 2 cars and plan to spend at least 1 day/night trying to find it.

20.7k · January 22, 2009

I've always felt handicapped cachers deserve better than lamppost caches hidden in parking lots.

As someone who spent several months on crutches, I can assure you that not all handicapped cachers are thrilled by the idea of flitting between every guardrail and strip mall in the area.

Easily accessible caches in interesting places = great.

P&Gs with no redeeming value other than a quick smiley = no thanks.

If you (collective 'you') believe that there is a need for easily accessible, yet 'more interesting' caches, feel free to hide some. Otherwise, I it would appear that you are just trying to muddy the waters.

Like BS, I have also spent several months hobbled. During that time, when I did get out to look for a few caches, I was very thankful that some of the local geocachers hid caches on signs, under lamppost covers, and on guardrails for me to find.

Of course, I realize that there are some of us that don't find enjoyment in the same ways that I do. Some also that feel that they are not responsible for their own fun and like to ridicule those others that don't live up to their personal expectations. I don't think much of people like that.

Us lame folks don't need lame caches! I cache in a wheelchair or on crutches and have managed to find my share of caches over the years. Yes, easy terrain is certainly helpful, but that has nothing to do with the difficulty level! The idea that we need P&Gs is false. If you want to consider handicap accessible terrain for some of your caches, great, but you don't have to make them easy to find... we're crippled, not stupid!

I never actually called you stupid. That being said, I do wish that you had actually read my entire post prior to choosing to get all insulted.

My position is, and always has been, as follows:

Hide caches that you would enjoy finding. Look for caches that you would enjoy finding. If you are not having fun, perhaps this isn't the hobby for you. If you feel the need to act all indignant, perhaps you should take a closer look at your behavior, rather than expecting all others to amuse you (again, collective 'you').

Has caching turned into a P&G hobby?

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