Misstated

[+OzGuff]

Sassafras (GCZ270) is a cache located not far from the peak of Mount Sassafras, which is the highest point in South Carolina. The cache, however, is located about 100-150 feet from the SC border and is in North Carolina. (All of the mapping links on the cache page show that the cache is located well inside the NC border.) The cache was placed on 10/26/06 and has been logged online 40 times; only one of these logs mentions the SC/NC incongruity.

 

I let the NC reviewer know about this and he passed it onto the SC reviewer. I assume that this info was passed onto the cache owner as he -- the cache owner -- then archived the cache. (I don't know for a fact that the revelation of this cache's mis-state-ment led to the cache being archived but if it looks like a duck...) A few weeks later the cache was unarchived and all logs related to archival/unarchival were deleted.

 

Should this cache be correctly re-cataloged as a North Carolina cache? Or is state location a variable over which the cache owner has total control? Would anyone be upset if someone pointed out that a cache they owned was listed as being located in the wrong state?

 

I have no axe to grind but feel that caches should show up in the correct states. Period.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

I guess my question is "What difference does it make?"

[+Harry Dolphin]

Great play on words, OzGuff!

The CO is the one who clicks the pulldown for 'state'. Don't know if TPTB really care. I do find it strange that the misplaced logs have been deleted, though. Perhaps it's used for a Hipoints Challenge?

 

I was going to mention that the NGS doesn't always care if the state or county mentioned for benchmarks is right. Then I noticed that the nearby benchmark FB4025 Sassafras is also listed as being in South Carolina, but shows on the maps as North Carolina. Maybe the maps are wrong??? Wouldn't be the first time that has happened...

Edited January 19, 2009 by Harry Dolphin

[+JoGPS]

Will be the first one to admit that I did not even look at the cache page or maps, but we all know only to well that cache placement guidelines can be different from one state to another.

 

It would not bother me at all for someone to tell me ( or my reviewer ) my cache was in a different state or county, if I messed up then I messed up and would want to know about so it could be corrected if possible and the cache could live on

 

Joe

 

Did I just agree with OzGuff ? yet thinks me did

[nonaeroterraqueous]

The cache, however, is located about 100-150 feet from the SC border and is in North Carolina.

 

I think I would have shrugged my shoulders and moved on. That's not a significant distance to me.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

I guess my question is "What difference does it make?"

 

There are some, like myself, that try to find a cache in as many states as possible. I had a similar situation with a cache that was close to the border of California/Nevada. Looking at several maps showed it to be on the Nevada side, and it was about 5' from a fence that appeared to be a property line between a casino and some other business. The cache page listing had it as California. The cache submission form merely has a field where one enters the state the cache is located in and it appears that the actual coordinates are not checked ot confirm what side of a border the cache might be located. After I found the cache I sent email to the owner asking about it but never got a response. There are other logs on the cache wondering about it as well. It would have made any difference except I was in the area and only went across the border specifically to find a cache, then had a bit of a drive ahead before returning to my brothers house in California. Since I live on the opposite coast there's a reasonably high chance that I may never get back into the state of Nevada.

A few weeks ago I downloaded a MyFinds pocket query and it looks like that State designation on the cache has changed to Nevada. Now the map on my profile page which shows which states I've found a cache in is correct.

[Neos2]

The maps can be wrong.

 

By 123 feet (which is the furthest I got from the state line) or more? Well, I don't know.

 

I think caches ought to be listed in the state where they actually lie also, but I would be sure of where they were before I kicked up a fuss. I would want to look at a really good topo map and do a search of the land owner on the "official" state maps before I made too much of a fuss over a hundred feet or so.

 

Do you know who manages the land? Is is privately owned or is it state or federal property? Have you made any inquiries as to whether the maps show the legal ownership of the land?

 

I live near the Ohio River. The "low water mark of 1792 on the northern shore" is the official boundary between Indiana and Kentucky. Disputes over exactly where that was, now that the river has been dammed and the level raised, has sparked many controversies over the years. There are places so cut off from one state or the other that everyone concerned agreed (without courts) that it belonged to the state that had access to the property most of the year. There are lots of spots that show on the map as being in Kentucky that are legally in Indiana, and vice versa.

[+Okiebryan]

Unless there is a state line monument, I'd say that it would almost take a land survey to determine for sure what state it's in. You have to realize that the GIS data used to show where that is on a map (not to mention the location of the state line, meandering the way it does) could EASILY miss by that small of a margin.

 

I think I'd leave this one alone.

[+J-Way]

There was a re-survey of one of the NC borders a few years ago because of a lawsuit. I don't remember if it was NC/VA or NC/SC. The "official" border was finally established. It turns out that the "unofficial" border moved by quite a bit in some locations. People who lived, voted, paid taxes, and sent their kids to school in one state were suddenly residents of a different state.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

I guess my question is "What difference does it make?"

There are some, like myself, that try to find a cache in as many states as possible. ... snip

Yeah, but the OP is in NC, so having another cache that's actually in NC instead of SC doesn't seem like it would be an issue in this case.

[+SgtSue]

If I remember correctly that cache was placed to celebrate and showcase South Carolina's highest point. With that being said I would think the CO would have made every effort to place the cache within SC's boarders. But borders do change and maps are sometimes wrong, so I would not make an assumption as to which state it legally is in. Sounds like a surveyor would be needed to make an actual determination as even those "Welcome to" signs are not placed directly on the border line. Does make me curious enough to raise this higher on my to do list.

[+Tequila]

One minor issue is that it won't show up on a PQ if the requestor specifies a state.

 

A local cacher here placed a cache in Toronto but said it was in Nunavut (Northwest Territories) to see if it was possible. It is.

 

I build my PQ's for Ontario to avoid getting NY caches across the lake. As a result I never saw this cache until it became the closest unfound to my house and showed up on my home page.

 

Not a big deal but one reason it should be in the correct state.

[+slackpacker]

Interesting . . . I have found this cache, saw that it had been archived (and the succint archiving note), thought it strange at the time. As a "highpointer" I agree that this is a cache-worthy spot - glad the cache was reinstated.

 

That said, I have driven out of my way to grab a cache in a nearby state - West Virginia (one find!) comes to mind - and I would be upset if a cache's stated place was mislabeled and I missed a "find" in the desired geography. I do realize mistakes occur, however.

 

The "geography" matters more now, it seems - whether it's for a Delorme challenge or trying to get the counties to light-up in a different color on INATN, people frequently care very much just "where" a cache is located.

 

If I had one of mine classified incorrectly, I'd want to know.

[+OzGuff]

I think that this cache is close enough to the border that it may be hard to determine the actual state of residence. And I can even understand how the cache owner might be a little bummed that a cache placed to highlight a state's highest point was found to be located in the "wrong" state. If the cache owner is bummed there is a simple solution: Re-visit the area and move the cache a few hundred feet to the south.

[+J-Way]

Update: I decided I was curious about this and did a little more web-searching. It WAS the NC/SC border, but they're still working on the re-survey, especially south of Charlotte. It appears that they're finished in the area of the cache, though. Linky.

 

It's theoretically possible that the cache was originally hidden in SC but is now in NC because the border was redefined.

 

But more likely a SC cacher wanted to hide a cache at the highest peak in SC, so he listed the cache in SC. And could care less what state it's really in, nor what a bunch of people in the forums think about the situation.

 

And for what it's worth, I personally like accuracy, so I think the cache should be listed in NC.

[+JBnW]

Not the only one: GC19CRE - Tri-State Corner. I'm taking survey gear out there on my next trip cuz this just can't be in Missouri. And the official survey point is about 150 ft away (actually both of them).

[GOF and Bacall]

Wow, who cares? Is it a fun cache? An interesting location? Quality container? Then sign the log and move on. Is it not one or more of the above or does it fit into one of the other contested hot topics? Too bad, sign the log and move on. Or don't sign the log, who cares?

[+OzGuff]

Wow, who cares? Is it a fun cache? An interesting location? Quality container? Then sign the log and move on. Is it not one or more of the above or does it fit into one of the other contested hot topics? Too bad, sign the log and move on. Or don't sign the log, who cares?

 

Apparently I do. And others may who value accuracy. More practically, I own the NC version of the DeLorme Challenge. This cache -- if in NC -- would be only the fourth cache on the page 71 inset and might make it easier for folks to cross off another page.

 

Thanks for your valuable contribution to this thread. I can't wait for future pearls of wisdom; they are obviously of inestimable quality. Feel free to spread the wealth to other threads...

[7rxc]

Update: I decided I was curious about this and did a little more web-searching. It WAS the NC/SC border, but they're still working on the re-survey, especially south of Charlotte. It appears that they're finished in the area of the cache, though. Linky.

 

It's theoretically possible that the cache was originally hidden in SC but is now in NC because the border was redefined.

 

But more likely a SC cacher wanted to hide a cache at the highest peak in SC, so he listed the cache in SC. And could care less what state it's really in, nor what a bunch of people in the forums think about the situation.

 

And for what it's worth, I personally like accuracy, so I think the cache should be listed in NC.

Given the age of the original border survey, and the nature of property titles from that period, they certainly have their work cut out... that was an interesting article. I also start to wonder what if any the effect of the NAD27 to WGS84 datum had... the whole world squirmed a bit when they redefined the measurements... even recent (relatively) maps had noticeable shifts... I accept that old records were usually based on descriptions of the land... ie landmark to landmark... and when surveyed finally they were indexed on those points... I wonder if the summit of Sassafras is in SC any more... or ever was... sigh!

 

Perhaps 'borderline' cases need to be identified as borderline... claim either/or/all as it suits you...

I should see if there is a cache at Four Corners... what would that be?... Meanwhile, it seems that the intent

here was clear, to celbrate a local 'fact' and if the GZ coordinates are good... let it stand til everyone is sorted out, and then adjust...

 

Doug

[+WRASTRO]

Wow, who cares? Is it a fun cache? An interesting location? Quality container? Then sign the log and move on. Is it not one or more of the above or does it fit into one of the other contested hot topics? Too bad, sign the log and move on. Or don't sign the log, who cares?

 

Apparently I do. And others may who value accuracy. More practically, I own the NC version of the DeLorme Challenge. This cache -- if in NC -- would be only the fourth cache on the page 71 inset and might make it easier for folks to cross off another page.

 

Thanks for your valuable contribution to this thread. I can't wait for future pearls of wisdom; they are obviously of inestimable quality. Feel free to spread the wealth to other threads...

Wow! Thanks for turning this topic into a slam fest. Based on your response it would seem you are more interested in making sure your challenge cache is hard to complete than anything else. Got any more pearls of wisdom to share with the rest of us who don't have any interest or buy in to your challenge cache? It would appear that your only issue with this listing is that it could, possibly, somehow, maybe, conceivably make it just an eensy, teensy bit easier for someone to complete your challenge cache. If I am mis-reading your issue please let me know. If you didn't "own" the challenge listing would you have any reason to care? Maybe you think the cache owner is trying to help out some buddies so they can complete your challenge. I am all for accuracy as well but I do believe we need to keep our wits about us here. What is the agenda? Let's talk about it.

[+waypointazoid]

...who cares?

Sassafrass is my cache. I've never been concerned as much about where it is as what it is. It was placed to celebrate the highest peak in South Carolina. Period. Unfortunately, that highest peak is also split down it's middle by the NC/SC line. Where is it? some say SC... some say NC. But what is it? It is a premium ammo box geocache placed to comemorate a significant geographical feature of my home state. It is the ending point, (or midway point for some), of one of the most beautiful hiking trails in Appalachia. It's base is covered with sassafrass trees... so comes it's name. It has a beautiful view just a short walk from a South Carolina parking area. It is listed on Tigerz website as the highest-elevation cache in South Carolina. For all but the hard core nitpicker, it sits on a state line. It is a cache placed by a South Carolina cacher in the best hiding spot on South Carolina's peak to honor South Carolina... for all cachers to enjoy. Many have gently inquired about it, but only one has ever made an issue of it. I archived it for reasons that have nothing to do with the duck... the duck is really a hidden agenda... but so many asked me not to archive it because it's on their "to do" lists, and so I changed my mind and asked that it be unarchived.

 

There's no such thing as a cache that will always meet the needs and desires of every cacher, and some have nothing better to do than to criticize them when they don't. It's been suggested that I put a note on the cache page for those who can't get a life without an official resolution. I think I'll leave it a mystery for the obsessed to chase their tales about. If you're lucky enough to visit Sassafrass, no matter wheather you come by trail or car, there is no way that you cannot cross the highest ground in South Carolina to find it, and there is no way that you cannot be inspired by the beauty of both NC and South Carolina. It's meant to take you to a special place to show you nature's beauty and wonder as well as a cartographic anomaly, And of course, there is a mystery to ponder... what other cache can you find and then still ask yourself...just where is this cache???? Resolved: it's an adventure on every level, and if that's not what geocaching is really about for you...

 

who cares?

[+WRASTRO]

Thank you for the great response. I hope that I have a chance to hunt your cache some day.

[+briansnat]

...who cares?

Sassafrass is my cache. I've never been concerned as much about where it is as what it is. It was placed to celebrate the highest peak in South Carolina. Period. Unfortunately, that highest peak is also split down it's middle by the NC/SC line. Where is it? some say SC... some say NC. But what is it? It is a premium ammo box geocache placed to comemorate a significant geographical feature of my home state. It is the ending point, (or midway point for some), of one of the most beautiful hiking trails in Appalachia. It's base is covered with sassafrass trees... so comes it's name. It has a beautiful view just a short walk from a South Carolina parking area. It is listed on Tigerz website as the highest-elevation cache in South Carolina. For all but the hard core nitpicker, it sits on a state line. It is a cache placed by a South Carolina cacher in the best hiding spot on South Carolina's peak to honor South Carolina... for all cachers to enjoy. Many have gently inquired about it, but only one has ever made an issue of it. I archived it for reasons that have nothing to do with the duck... the duck is really a hidden agenda... but so many asked me not to archive it because it's on their "to do" lists, and so I changed my mind and asked that it be unarchived.

 

There's no such thing as a cache that will always meet the needs and desires of every cacher, and some have nothing better to do than to criticize them when they don't. It's been suggested that I put a note on the cache page for those who can't get a life without an official resolution. I think I'll leave it a mystery for the obsessed to chase their tales about. If you're lucky enough to visit Sassafrass, no matter wheather you come by trail or car, there is no way that you cannot cross the highest ground in South Carolina to find it, and there is no way that you cannot be inspired by the beauty of both NC and South Carolina. It's meant to take you to a special place to show you nature's beauty and wonder as well as a cartographic anomaly, And of course, there is a mystery to ponder... what other cache can you find and then still ask yourself...just where is this cache???? Resolved: it's an adventure on every level, and if that's not what geocaching is really about for you...

 

who cares?

 

Sounds like a great cache. Maybe you need to commission a survey team to check it out. You don't want it to be 10 feet inside the wrong state, do you .

Edited January 19, 2009 by briansnat

[+SgtSue]

So the issue is should the cache can be counted for page 71-B for the NC or page 17 of the SC DeLorme Challenge. Mmmm that could be an issue, not just now but in the future. If, according to the current map, the cache is in NC, but the new survey determines it to be in SC would a person's claim for either state's DeLorme Challenge be changed? I would plot the cache on the NC DeLorme map and if it according to that map it is NC I would allow it for the NC Challenge regardless of what the cache page says. Goes along with your item # 4

 

4. If a North Carolina DeLorme Atlas page includes space not located in North Carolina, only caches in the North Carolina portion count. We will go off of the posted coordinates for a cache when determining in which state or page a given cache falls.

 

Use the determining factor to be the North Carolina DeLorme Atlas; not the cache page, a GSAK macro, or Microsoft Streets and Trips. That way even if the border if moved by a mile in the future there is no question the person did or did not meet the goal as of this date according to this map.

[Clan Riffster]

It's really hard for me to give two hoots about what state this is in. If I were anally retentive enough to sweat a hundred feet or so, I'd most likely come to the conclusion that, without spending a bajillion dollars on a professional survey team, there's no way to determine what state it's actually in, thereby nullifying any qualms I might have regarding the importance of accuracy. It sounds like an awesome cache, regardless of what state was selected in the drop down box. That's good enough for me.

[+briansnat]

It's really hard for me to give two hoots about what state this is in. If I were anally retentive enough to sweat a hundred feet or so, I'd most likely come to the conclusion that, without spending a bajillion dollars on a professional survey team, there's no way to determine what state it's actually in, thereby nullifying any qualms I might have regarding the importance of accuracy. It sounds like an awesome cache, regardless of what state was selected in the drop down box. That's good enough for me.

 

That's the problem, people like you who are willing to let something like this slide. If 5 feet inside the wrong state is OK, then what's next? 10 feet? 15 feet? Pretty soon you are going to find caches 15 and 20 feet inside the wrong state and where does it end. What if its a country? My goodness people can start hiding caches 5 feet inside the US and listing them as in Canada so people add a new country to their cache map. I'm with the OP on this one. When in doubt, hire a surveyor for your hides.

[+KJcachers]

So the issue is should the cache can be counted for page 71-B for the NC or page 17 of the SC DeLorme Challenge. Mmmm that could be an issue, not just now but in the future. If, according to the current map, the cache is in NC, but the new survey determines it to be in SC would a person's claim for either state's DeLorme Challenge be changed? I would plot the cache on the NC DeLorme map and if it according to that map it is NC I would allow it for the NC Challenge regardless of what the cache page says. Goes along with your item # 4

 

4. If a North Carolina DeLorme Atlas page includes space not located in North Carolina, only caches in the North Carolina portion count. We will go off of the posted coordinates for a cache when determining in which state or page a given cache falls.

 

Use the determining factor to be the North Carolina DeLorme Atlas; not the cache page, a GSAK macro, or Microsoft Streets and Trips. That way even if the border if moved by a mile in the future there is no question the person did or did not meet the goal as of this date according to this map.

 

I am currently pursuing the Virginia DeLorme Challenge and I would never try to use a cache so close to a border or grid line for any cache in my search. There have got to be other caches in those grids that would not be questionable.

[+larryc43230]

I am currently pursuing the Virginia DeLorme Challenge and I would never try to use a cache so close to a border or grid line for any cache in my search. There have got to be other caches in those grids that would not be questionable.

This was the strategy I used when I went after the Ohio DeLorme Challenge. To avoid any possible disputes, I chose caches that weren't close to any borders or grid lines in the atlas.

 

That certainly doesn't mean I avoided cool caches that were on or near the borders or grid lines, I simply didn't use those finds as caches that met the challenge requirements.

 

--Larry

[+OzGuff]

...who cares?

Sassafrass is my cache. I've never been concerned as much about where it is as what it is. It was placed to celebrate the highest peak in South Carolina. Period. Unfortunately, that highest peak is also split down it's middle by the NC/SC line. Where is it? some say SC... some say NC. But what is it? It is a premium ammo box geocache placed to comemorate a significant geographical feature of my home state. It is the ending point, (or midway point for some), of one of the most beautiful hiking trails in Appalachia. It's base is covered with sassafrass trees... so comes it's name. It has a beautiful view just a short walk from a South Carolina parking area. It is listed on Tigerz website as the highest-elevation cache in South Carolina. For all but the hard core nitpicker, it sits on a state line. It is a cache placed by a South Carolina cacher in the best hiding spot on South Carolina's peak to honor South Carolina... for all cachers to enjoy. Many have gently inquired about it, but only one has ever made an issue of it. I archived it for reasons that have nothing to do with the duck... the duck is really a hidden agenda... but so many asked me not to archive it because it's on their "to do" lists, and so I changed my mind and asked that it be unarchived.

 

There's no such thing as a cache that will always meet the needs and desires of every cacher, and some have nothing better to do than to criticize them when they don't. It's been suggested that I put a note on the cache page for those who can't get a life without an official resolution. I think I'll leave it a mystery for the obsessed to chase their tales about. If you're lucky enough to visit Sassafrass, no matter wheather you come by trail or car, there is no way that you cannot cross the highest ground in South Carolina to find it, and there is no way that you cannot be inspired by the beauty of both NC and South Carolina. It's meant to take you to a special place to show you nature's beauty and wonder as well as a cartographic anomaly, And of course, there is a mystery to ponder... what other cache can you find and then still ask yourself...just where is this cache???? Resolved: it's an adventure on every level, and if that's not what geocaching is really about for you...

 

who cares?

 

I actually agree with everything waypointazoid says in the above post. Sassafras IS a great place to visit and there ARE some awesome views! But though the peak is located in SC the cache isn't.

 

My initial post in this thread asked three questions:

 

Should this cache be correctly re-cataloged as a North Carolina cache? Or is state location a variable over which the cache owner has total control? Would anyone be upset if someone pointed out that a cache they owned was listed as being located in the wrong state?

 

Replies to these questions are appreciated.

 

And my apologies to GOF & Bacall. My attack was uncalled for.

[GOF and Bacall]

...who cares?

Sassafrass is my cache. I've never been concerned as much about where it is as what it is. It was placed to celebrate the highest peak in South Carolina. Period. Unfortunately, that highest peak is also split down it's middle by the NC/SC line. Where is it? some say SC... some say NC. But what is it? It is a premium ammo box geocache placed to comemorate a significant geographical feature of my home state. It is the ending point, (or midway point for some), of one of the most beautiful hiking trails in Appalachia. It's base is covered with sassafrass trees... so comes it's name. It has a beautiful view just a short walk from a South Carolina parking area. It is listed on Tigerz website as the highest-elevation cache in South Carolina. For all but the hard core nitpicker, it sits on a state line. It is a cache placed by a South Carolina cacher in the best hiding spot on South Carolina's peak to honor South Carolina... for all cachers to enjoy. Many have gently inquired about it, but only one has ever made an issue of it. I archived it for reasons that have nothing to do with the duck... the duck is really a hidden agenda... but so many asked me not to archive it because it's on their "to do" lists, and so I changed my mind and asked that it be unarchived.

 

There's no such thing as a cache that will always meet the needs and desires of every cacher, and some have nothing better to do than to criticize them when they don't. It's been suggested that I put a note on the cache page for those who can't get a life without an official resolution. I think I'll leave it a mystery for the obsessed to chase their tales about. If you're lucky enough to visit Sassafrass, no matter wheather you come by trail or car, there is no way that you cannot cross the highest ground in South Carolina to find it, and there is no way that you cannot be inspired by the beauty of both NC and South Carolina. It's meant to take you to a special place to show you nature's beauty and wonder as well as a cartographic anomaly, And of course, there is a mystery to ponder... what other cache can you find and then still ask yourself...just where is this cache???? Resolved: it's an adventure on every level, and if that's not what geocaching is really about for you...

 

who cares?

 

Sounds like a wonderfully spectacular cache. For that reason I will put it on my todo list. Thank you for placing it.

 

The who cares comment was in regards to what state the cache is in. I think some need to find themselves some real problems to worry about.

 

So, if I offended you by appearing to not care about your cache I am sorry.

[GOF and Bacall]

And my apologies to GOF & Bacall. My attack was uncalled for.

 

Not needed. I did not take it personal.

[+the pooks]

Should this cache be correctly re-cataloged as a North Carolina cache? Or is state location a variable over which the cache owner has total control? Would anyone be upset if someone pointed out that a cache they owned was listed as being located in the wrong state?

 

Having read this thread my interpretation would be as follows. After FINDING the cache you could post in a log your thoughts and justifications (as an aside) that it is a NC cache and then just leave it to the owner whether they want to do more research or want to change the name. I would not draw the reviewers into the debate, as it is not required of them to get involved on that detail. The CO is from SC, placed it as a SC tribute, it is most easily accessed from SC and by all accounts it is a bit of a grey area whether it is SC or NC. To the folks to which it is important (such as the DeLorme challenge) I would suggest finding another cache for the purpose of the challenge and keep this cache for what is was intended. Pursuing the matter further does have the potential of distracting from the positive aspects of this cache.

[GOF and Bacall]

As another possible solution to the problem. OG, you could state on your DC cache page that you consider this cache to be in NC and as such will accept it for the challenge purposes.

[+SgtSue]

I am currently pursuing the Virginia DeLorme Challenge and I would never try to use a cache so close to a border or grid line for any cache in my search. There have got to be other caches in those grids that would not be questionable.

This was the strategy I used when I went after the Ohio DeLorme Challenge. To avoid any possible disputes, I chose caches that weren't close to any borders or grid lines in the atlas.

 

That certainly doesn't mean I avoided cool caches that were on or near the borders or grid lines, I simply didn't use those finds as caches that met the challenge requirements.

 

--Larry

 

Nor would I use a cache so close as to be in question, but if I was the CO and had someone submitted one for their requirement that would be my decision making process.

 

As to the OP's original questions:

 

I don't think it should be reclassified to a NC cache as I've seen where maps are wrong. It would have to be clearly in another state and in this case with the borders legally in dispute who knows for sure.

 

I don't think any one person should be totally in control of anything. The CO has visited the spot, I have not. I would not second guess him as it seems this area has been in dispute as to exactly where the state line is for awhile.

 

It would depend how they pointed out the error, if in fact it was an error. Being wrong would not upset me, I've been wrong before. But I could be upset if the person was rude or demanding. (not saying the OP was in this case, just answering the question).

[+OzGuff]

It would depend how they pointed out the error, if in fact it was an error. Being wrong would not upset me, I've been wrong before. But I could be upset if the person was rude or demanding. (not saying the OP was in this case, just answering the question).

 

When I first noticed the potential discrepancy a few months ago I sent an email to the NC reviewer, who apparently passed the info on to the SC reviewer. Not long after that the cache was archived with the cryptic comment "Done." I added a note to the cache page that I was sorry to see the cache go as it was really a great area, and I also included a sentence about how I believed that the cache was located in NC. Here is the full text of that note:

 

This is a great area and I am sorry to see that this cache was archived! Hopefully the other two caches in the area will be enough of an incentive to get folks up to the top! Or maybe someone else will hide a new one...

 

BTW -- though the peak of Sassafras Mountain is in SC the cache was actually located about 150 feet inside NC.

 

Thanks for placing the cache!

 

Later that same day my note was deleted along with my Find log for the cache from early 2007 where I also mentioned the NC/SC issue. A couple of people in this thread have asked "Who cares?" It appears that the cache owner cares. And I am pretty sure that I was not "rude or demanding."

 

Based on all available data this cache is located in NC. Shouldn't the cache page reflect this fact?

 

Hmmm... I just checked on benchmarks in the area and there is one 180 feet away placed by the SC Geodetic Survey and listed as being in SC. Can't wait for the NC/SC Boundary Commission to finish!

[+gof1]

Hmm, me thinks you missed your window of opportunity. You should have gone out and placed a cache while it was in archived status. Then you could have chose the location as NC and the commission could have taken that into consideration in determining the status of that chunk of the mountain.

[+Walts Hunting]

Try country misstate. There is one in Algadones Mexico (border town) that is listed as US

[+OzGuff]

Hmm, me thinks you missed your window of opportunity. You should have gone out and placed a cache while it was in archived status. Then you could have chose the location as NC and the commission could have taken that into consideration in determining the status of that chunk of the mountain.

 

This post made me laugh! There is plenty of room out there so maybe I WILL go out and place another cache on Sassafras Mountain...

[+SgtSue]

It would depend how they pointed out the error, if in fact it was an error. Being wrong would not upset me, I've been wrong before. But I could be upset if the person was rude or demanding. (not saying the OP was in this case, just answering the question).

 

When I first noticed the potential discrepancy a few months ago I sent an email to the NC reviewer, who apparently passed the info on to the SC reviewer. Not long after that the cache was archived with the cryptic comment "Done." I added a note to the cache page that I was sorry to see the cache go as it was really a great area, and I also included a sentence about how I believed that the cache was located in NC. Here is the full text of that note:

 

This is a great area and I am sorry to see that this cache was archived! Hopefully the other two caches in the area will be enough of an incentive to get folks up to the top! Or maybe someone else will hide a new one...

 

BTW -- though the peak of Sassafras Mountain is in SC the cache was actually located about 150 feet inside NC.

 

Thanks for placing the cache!

 

Later that same day my note was deleted along with my Find log for the cache from early 2007 where I also mentioned the NC/SC issue. A couple of people in this thread have asked "Who cares?" It appears that the cache owner cares. And I am pretty sure that I was not "rude or demanding."

 

Based on all available data this cache is located in NC. Shouldn't the cache page reflect this fact?

 

Hmmm... I just checked on benchmarks in the area and there is one 180 feet away placed by the SC Geodetic Survey and listed as being in SC. Can't wait for the NC/SC Boundary Commission to finish!

 

OzGuff, I truly hope you do not think I said you were rude or demanding. I merely stated I personally wouldn't be upset at being shown where I was wrong, but politeness does come into play when dealing with others. I would prefer if someone has a question or problem with something I've done they talk to me first instead of taking it to an official, it would more of "did you realize" and less of a "reporting you for your mistake" that way. I have been around enough to realize not everyone thinks the same way and there are times when going through a third party is more comfortable or even at times more advisable. One good thing about this is I had forgotten about this cache and now I'm putting it on my to do watch list so I do not forget it again but instead turn it into a caching trip with my friends.

[+OzGuff]

It would depend how they pointed out the error, if in fact it was an error. Being wrong would not upset me, I've been wrong before. But I could be upset if the person was rude or demanding. (not saying the OP was in this case, just answering the question).

 

When I first noticed the potential discrepancy a few months ago I sent an email to the NC reviewer, who apparently passed the info on to the SC reviewer. Not long after that the cache was archived with the cryptic comment "Done." I added a note to the cache page that I was sorry to see the cache go as it was really a great area, and I also included a sentence about how I believed that the cache was located in NC. Here is the full text of that note:

 

This is a great area and I am sorry to see that this cache was archived! Hopefully the other two caches in the area will be enough of an incentive to get folks up to the top! Or maybe someone else will hide a new one...

 

BTW -- though the peak of Sassafras Mountain is in SC the cache was actually located about 150 feet inside NC.

 

Thanks for placing the cache!

 

Later that same day my note was deleted along with my Find log for the cache from early 2007 where I also mentioned the NC/SC issue. A couple of people in this thread have asked "Who cares?" It appears that the cache owner cares. And I am pretty sure that I was not "rude or demanding."

 

Based on all available data this cache is located in NC. Shouldn't the cache page reflect this fact?

 

Hmmm... I just checked on benchmarks in the area and there is one 180 feet away placed by the SC Geodetic Survey and listed as being in SC. Can't wait for the NC/SC Boundary Commission to finish!

 

OzGuff, I truly hope you do not think I said you were rude or demanding. I merely stated I personally wouldn't be upset at being shown where I was wrong, but politeness does come into play when dealing with others. I would prefer if someone has a question or problem with something I've done they talk to me first instead of taking it to an official, it would more of "did you realize" and less of a "reporting you for your mistake" that way. I have been around enough to realize not everyone thinks the same way and there are times when going through a third party is more comfortable or even at times more advisable. One good thing about this is I had forgotten about this cache and now I'm putting it on my to do watch list so I do not forget it again but instead turn it into a caching trip with my friends.

 

You definitely should! The area is great! The only downside is that you can actually drive to within a few hundred feet of the cache; it doesn't seem right that you can get to such a great view without actually having worked for it a little. (And I was pretty sure you weren't saying I was rude/demanding -- though I am pretty sure that I am capable of such actions.)

 

All in all this is a tempest in a teapot. When a cache owner doesn't respond to my inquiries I sometimes resort to asking forum dwellers for their opinions. Some agree with me and some don't. If the cache remains listed as "SC" I am pretty sure I will survive.

 

Thanks to all for their responses! I will leave the thread open for any and all to continue to throw in their two and three cents.

[+gof1]

Hmm, me thinks you missed your window of opportunity. You should have gone out and placed a cache while it was in archived status. Then you could have chose the location as NC and the commission could have taken that into consideration in determining the status of that chunk of the mountain.

 

This post made me laugh! There is plenty of room out there so maybe I WILL go out and place another cache on Sassafras Mountain...

 

Put it on the SC side of the line and post it as NC. In this way you can help to bring balance to the universe, or at least Sassafras Mountain.

[+waypointazoid]

Let me clear some things up... once again, this is my cache...

 

First, I know this OP personally. Since he insists on airing this out here, we will. IMHO, he is "rude and demanding", and I've called him on it in a nice way on many ocassions. I said there was a hidden agenda in the creation of this thread and there is. He logged this cache long ago, but only after... right after... a personal letter from me admonishing him for picking on new geocachers for acusing them of damaging an environment that was damaged before the cache was placed... only then did he report this cache to the NC Reviewer as being in the wrong state. I was asked about it by the SC Reviewer, and no demand to change anything was made. This entire question was resolved when this cache was published. I archived this cache for reasons that had little to do with this OP and his complaint, and was urged by others, including the reviewer, to reactivate it. Two hours after archiving it, our friend here posted a note with an "inside" jab hidden in it. I deleted it, and he bypassed the usual appeal procedure, (probably because the locals know him) and it was overruled and reposted by reluctant execs. at GC.com. Within hours of the cache being reactivated, he started this thread.

 

The OP caches under multiple names, and is about as well known as anyone in this region of the US. He has placed hundreds of caches, and has even been on television in support of geocaching. New cachers are sometimes in awe of his acomplishments. He has the potential to be a real leader and advocate for geocaching, but choses the dark side instead. There have been countless times that I have pleaded with him to live up to his legend and use it to promote good will instead of tearing down everyone else's fun. It has decended into anymosity, and this thread is just one more in a long line of recent indescretions meant to harass me for having the audacity to appeal to his sense of kindness and fellowship towards others.

 

He'll not be happy until he finds a way to force me to submit to his will.

 

How do you place a cache on a summit that has an imaginary line over the top of it? The terrain and the adequacy of a place to hide the cache effectively don't recognize these imaginary lines, and the satelites under wooded cover don't give much cooperation either. Add in the ambiguity of multiple surveys and computer datum translation into graphics and you'll conclude that there is no definable science you can depend on. And who cares anyway... it's geocaching, not oil drilling on the Kuwaiti/Iraqi border! You do the best you can, and the cache should stand on it's own merit for it's own intended purposes and has no burden to accomodate anyone else's "Delorme" aspirations. Did I mention that Sassafrass missed by one vote being chosen Traditional Cache of the Year by the South Carolina Geocaching Association? It seems to be OK with the rest of the local community! As offered by others in this thread, it would be very easy for the OP to adjust his Delorme cache page to accomodate this anomaly. Jesus! Allow it to count or not... but true to his constant-peculiar and dominating nature, he'd insist that the rest of the community should accomodate his wants and needs, and he comes here in a not-so-forthright fashion for affirmation of his hidden agenda.

 

Geocaching is a pastime. It is unique in that it is a game that can be defined by the player. If the player wishes, it's a game of solitaire. If you want to compete, there are those who will rule-split with you. But those who just want to have a simple family oriented adventure are the backbone of this community, and they shouldn't have to go through the gauntlet at every turn to expedite the ambitions and egos of those obsessed with meaningless facts, figures, and pointless interpretations of geography. And the boys in Seattle, and our gracious volunteers have better things to do than referee this insuferable ego-laden hairsplitting.

 

If some of us would spend as much time talking about what is good about geocaching... cheerleading the efforts of others... if we used our experience to guide and enhance the adventure and imagination of the not-so-expereinced as we do finding something to cry about, throwing penalty flags, and trying to erase grey areas from our personal scorecards, we'd all enjoy it more...

 

...and we'd have more friends.

[GOF and Bacall]

May I recomend counseling and mediation? I think the whole thing is silly, but that was over the top.

[Skippermark]

There's a cache like this in Connecticut. Well, Rhode Island. No wait. Massachusetts. Heck, I don't even know now.

 

It's listed as a RI cache, yet the map clearly shows that it's in CT, and the description keeps talking about MA.

 

It got me so riled up that I posted an SBA for it stating that everything about the cache is wrong.

[Keystone]

May I recomend counseling and mediation? I think the whole thing is silly, but that was over the top.

Not a bad idea. The personal dispute aspect of this thread is best worked out in private, not by posting jabs in a forum thread. There are jabs coming from both directions, and I'd like for them to stop. That way, discussion of the strictly academic questions stated in the opening post can continue.

 

Thanks.

[+OzGuff]

May I recomend counseling and mediation? I think the whole thing is silly, but that was over the top.

 

And, in the main, off-topic.

[+OzGuff]

I'll let post #42 speak for itself.

 

As I said in my initial post:

 

Should this cache be correctly re-cataloged as a North Carolina cache? Or is state location a variable over which the cache owner has total control? Would anyone be upset if someone pointed out that a cache they owned was listed as being located in the wrong state?

 

Continued thanks for your input!

[+WRASTRO]

There's a cache like this in Connecticut. Well, Rhode Island. No wait. Massachusetts. Heck, I don't even know now.

 

It's listed as a RI cache, yet the map clearly shows that it's in CT, and the description keeps talking about MA.

 

It got me so riled up that I posted an SBA for it stating that everything about the cache is wrong.

Hey, I want to know which cache this is so I might have a chance to knock off three states with one find! Oh wait, I already have Massechussets. Ok, two states. Yeah I know I live in Washington but I have been to MA and found a few caches. If I had known there was such a cool cache that would allow me to nab three states at once I might have gone for it.

[+WRASTRO]

I'll let post #42 speak for itself.

 

As I said in my initial post:

 

Should this cache be correctly re-cataloged as a North Carolina cache? Or is state location a variable over which the cache owner has total control? Would anyone be upset if someone pointed out that a cache they owned was listed as being located in the wrong state?

 

Continued thanks for your input!

I guess I would say that unless there is truly compelling evidence that the cache is listed in the wrong state, and the owner intentionally listed it in the wrong state, I would simply let it go and not worry about it. As far as the challenge cache is concerned, since you own the challenge cache I think you can exclude this cache from those that are eligible and state your reasons. Seems as though there are other issues in play here between the principle players. Bummer that it is spilling over into the forums.

[+mtn-man]

Seems as though there are other issues in play here between the principle players. Bummer that it is spilling over into the forums.

Yep.

 

Cache looks to be in NC to me. I still give this issue a whopping "big deal" too. I'm a states stats freak and have to say that this issue is a non-issue. Looks like a fun cache. Find it and enjoy it. Move to the next one.