GPS used for taxing the miles we drive

[Bite_Me]

Some people in the USA government is thinking of equipping every car and truck with a GPS to track the miles we drive and tax us on those miles. The following quote is taken from the middle of the Associated Press article and the link is given below.

 

"While details have not been worked out, such a system would mean equipping every car and truck with a device that uses global positioning satellites and transponders to record how many miles the vehicle has been driven, and perhaps the type of roads and time of day."

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102/ap_on_bi_ge/gas_tax_16

[+RonFisk]

Some people in the USA government is thinking of equipping every car and truck with a GPS to track the miles we drive and tax us on those miles. The following quote is taken from the middle of the Associated Press article and the link is given below.

 

"While details have not been worked out, such a system would mean equipping every car and truck with a device that uses global positioning satellites and transponders to record how many miles the vehicle has been driven, and perhaps the type of roads and time of day."

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090102/ap_on_bi_ge/gas_tax_16

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I hear that they are even considering a program where you will pay quarterly for your estimated mileage. Much like a 1040-ES...

[Maximus XX!V]

Then they could start issuing speeding tickets through the mail based on location and speed. Just a few more steps down the slippery slope would be tracking the whereabouts of anyone they want to track. This will probably hit some resistance if it happens, including underground disabling services.

 

I think a better solution is to raise taxes on fuel. Bigger, heavier vehicles that use more fuel also do more damage to roads. It also taxes you more the more you drive. Europe is already there.

 

Either way, most of my driving is pleasure related as I commute to work on my bike with a Garmin 705.

[+TotemLake]

Even though it is feasable with newer vehicles, the program will be too expensive to implement on older vehicles.

 

File this one away with the same consideration to tax email.

[+TotemLake]

Because I can...

Edited January 2, 2009 by TotemLake

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Even though it is feasable with newer vehicles, the program will be too expensive to implement on older vehicles.

 

File this one away with the same consideration to tax email.

My newer vehicle has built-in GPS/NAV, AFAIK it doesn't talk back. Wouldn't it have to talk back?

 

Now, OTOH, my parolee ankle bracelet......

Edited January 2, 2009 by Team CowboyPapa

[+TotemLake]

Even though it is feasable with newer vehicles, the program will be too expensive to implement on older vehicles.

 

File this one away with the same consideration to tax email.

My newer vehicle has built-in GPS/NAV, AFAIK it doesn't talk back. Wouldn't it have to talk back?

 

Now, OTOH, my parolee ankle bracelet......

I don't think you want the GPS to talk back.

 

"

."

 

OT, the GPS would have to be setup with a transmitter to send to the receivers over the highway system with a universal number to identify you with. Heaven forbid if someone borrows your car eh? I can't see this one ever getting off the ground. OTH, tollways could come into play.

[+tarbal]

They can already do this in any car made after 1997. In NH it is a requirement that you car OBD gets hooked up to the state computer and downloaded everytime you have an inspection done. This can tell the state the total miles, speeds driven. braking styles etc. I am just waiting for the day the bill comes in the mail. They claimed when it was enacted that it was to make sure that the check engine light was out. Any mechanic could have checked that.

 

tarbaL

[+fourbeer]

I am currently participating in a study funded by the DOT that is looking at one alternative to the current Gas tax.

 

I have a GPS, Computer, and Cell Phone installed in my vehicle. It is all out of sight and works pretty well.

 

I get a pretend monthly bill for my driving tax.

 

If you think about it, this is truly the only way to fairly generate tax for upkeep of the roads we drive on. With alternative fuels, hybrids and even electric cars, the amount of tax generated by fuel purchases is not keeping up with the actual use of the roads.

[+JSWilson64]

It'll never work, as noted above, because it'd have to be retro-fit to every car on the road.

 

A much easier solution for "driving" tax, and car insurance, would be to add a fee onto every gallon of fuel purchased. There's your incentive to drive less, and drive a more efficient car.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

I am currently participating in a study funded by the DOT that is looking at one alternative to the current Gas tax.

 

I have a GPS, Computer, and Cell Phone installed in my vehicle. It is all out of sight and works pretty well.

 

I get a pretend monthly bill for my driving tax.

 

If you think about it, this is truly the only way to fairly generate tax for upkeep of the roads we drive on. With alternative fuels, hybrids and even electric cars, the amount of tax generated by fuel purchases is not keeping up with the actual use of the roads.

This "fairness" stuff is just the lies that they are telling you here and now. In reality, they will divert this gas tax for highway money for social welfare causes as they have been doing here for years.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

It'll never work, as noted above, because it'd have to be retro-fit to every car on the road.

 

A much easier solution for "driving" tax, and car insurance, would be to add a fee onto every gallon of fuel purchased. There's your incentive to drive less, and drive a more efficient car.

Yes, and that money will not go for highways, there are plenty of people who don't have insured, registered cars, or no cars at all, that will get that money.

[+JSWilson64]

It'll never work, as noted above, because it'd have to be retro-fit to every car on the road.

 

A much easier solution for "driving" tax, and car insurance, would be to add a fee onto every gallon of fuel purchased. There's your incentive to drive less, and drive a more efficient car.

Yes, and that money will not go for highways, there are plenty of people who don't have insured, registered cars, or no cars at all, that will get that money.

No cars at all? California politicians have a much lower standard of living than our Texas crooks...

[+mty55]

I am currently participating in a study funded by the DOT that is looking at one alternative to the current Gas tax.

 

I have a GPS, Computer, and Cell Phone installed in my vehicle. It is all out of sight and works pretty well.

 

I get a pretend monthly bill for my driving tax.

 

If you think about it, this is truly the only way to fairly generate tax for upkeep of the roads we drive on. With alternative fuels, hybrids and even electric cars, the amount of tax generated by fuel purchases is not keeping up with the actual use of the roads.

This "fairness" stuff is just the lies that they are telling you here and now. In reality, they will divert this gas tax for highway money for social welfare causes as they have been doing here for years.

 

They do that in California? Gee they do that in NY too.

[+user13371]

Whether or not you think a mileage tax is good or bad, electronic tracking is too complicated to implement and too easy to dodge. If the idea is "tax people for road use," there are (at least) three far easier ways to do it:

• Tax vehicles based on weight (levied at time of new sale and title transfer of used vehicles)
  
• Tax tyres based on load classifications
  
• Tax fuel. Though this gets tricky with full-electrics and hybrids, in the current population of vehicles it could be applied to pump prices for diesel and various gasoline mixes, tax perhaps weighted to BTU content of the specific fuel being sold and still capture MOST usage.
  

Last but not least, all such measures would have to be legislated with a "firewall" around the revenue so it couldn't be diverted away from road/travel infrastructure.

 

I'm offering these comments on a technical basis only; I don't drink enough during the workday to discuss taxes or politics - and it has little to do with GPS.

Edited January 2, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Last but not least, and or all such measures would have to be legislated with a "firewall" around the revenue so it couldn't be diverted away from road/travel infrastructure.

 

No, not exctly. After they reallocated gas tax money for several years, such "firewall" past put on the ballot as a resolution to the state constitution. It passed, now they "borrow" the gas tax revenues for their welfare purposes with the "guise" of repaying some time in the future.

 

Now, ask me how many successive years have they borrowed and how much has been repaid?

[+Team CowboyPapa]

It'll never work, as noted above, because it'd have to be retro-fit to every car on the road.

 

A much easier solution for "driving" tax, and car insurance, would be to add a fee onto every gallon of fuel purchased. There's your incentive to drive less, and drive a more efficient car.

Yes, and that money will not go for highways, there are plenty of people who don't have insured, registered cars, or no cars at all, that will get that money.

No cars at all? California politicians have a much lower standard of living than our Texas crooks...

Of those who drive without driver's licenses, insurance and proper registration, I am referring to crimmigrants.

[+user13371]

...ask me how many successive years have they borrowed and how much has been repaid?

Nah, it's still too early in the day for me to discuss taxes and politics and no matter how drunk I get later it STILL won't have anything to do with GPS technology. Edited January 2, 2009 by lee_rimar

[+Team CowboyPapa]

...ask me how many successive years have they borrowed and how much has been repaid?

Nah, it's still too early in the day for me to discuss taxes and politics and no matter how drunk I get later it STILL won't have anything to do with GPS technology.

HUGE 10-4!

[+dakboy]

Whether or not you think a mileage tax is good or bad, electronic tracking is too complicated to implement and too easy to dodge. If the idea is "tax people for road use," there are (at least) three far easier ways to do it:

• Tax vehicles based on weight (levied at time of new sale and title transfer of used vehicles)
  
• Tax tyres based on load classifications
  

The first is already done in several places in the US. Passenger cars in NY pay one rate for registration (renew every 2 years), trucks have a scale based upon GVWR.

 

The second one is tricky. SUVs used to predominantly ride on LT-rated tires. Now most are running passenger-rated tires, which are AFAIK one "general" load classification.

 

As for the "firewall" idea, there are loopholes. In New York, the Thruway (I-90 & I-87 south of Albany) was only meant to be a toll road until the construction of the road was paid off. That happened about 2 decades ago, and tolls are still here with rates going up once, sometimes twice a year. The Thruway Authority also owns the canal system, which has been operating at a loss for a very long time - to cover for that, the Thruway tolls go into paying for the canal maintenance, operation & upgrades.

[+Lone Duck]

Taxing vehicles by some other means than a fuel tax is becoming necessary because of increased fuel economy along with hybrid technology, which means less fule per mile is being sold now than ever before. ANd wait until the electric only vehicles come out, how are you going to collect a fuel tax on that?

 

I see the day coming when there will be an annual base tax with miles driven tax on vehicles. That means would have everybody paying their share no matter what propels the vehicle.

 

If GPS technology is used, then there will be a built loss of miles because of how GPS systems log distance. It's a constant series of straight line measurements, so any curve is shortened by that. Check it out for yourself sometime. Go for a drive and pay attention to the GPS and odometer. The odometer will be higher.

[robertlipe]

Moderator's note: this group is a reasonable place to discuss the GPS technology involved, but not the politics involved. Please keep it on topic, or this will be closed. Thanxk you.

[+TotemLake]

...ask me how many successive years have they borrowed and how much has been repaid?

Nah, it's still too early in the day for me to discuss taxes and politics and no matter how drunk I get later it STILL won't have anything to do with GPS technology.

HUGE 10-4!

Copy that.

[+humboldt flier]

Well now,

A different twist. Lets just say that a law enforcement agency had a curiousness about a particular individual, for what ever reason, it might not be a far stretch that a warrant might be obtained, records retrieved ... poor pity the dumb box of rocks that by happenstance just happened to be in the area and took a similar road trip. Sure a good attorney could fill in the gaps, however, poor Joe Dipstick might not get the brightest nor most motivated bulb in the package. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Sounds a little Orwellian doesn't it ( George Orwell "1984" )

 

However, it might have been nice to have had the technology in place when trying to unravel the Caylee case. ( missing toddler from Florida - now confirmed as deceased ).

 

I Know, I know, I know ... When driving a big screw you need a bigger HAMMER

[Maximus XX!V]

Well now,

A different twist. Lets just say that a law enforcement agency had a curiousness about a particular individual, for what ever reason, it might not be a far stretch that a warrant might be obtained, records retrieved ... poor pity the dumb box of rocks that by happenstance just happened to be in the area and took a similar road trip. Sure a good attorney could fill in the gaps, however, poor Joe Dipstick might not get the brightest nor most motivated bulb in the package. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Sounds a little Orwellian doesn't it ( George Orwell "1984" )

 

However, it might have been nice to have had the technology in place when trying to unravel the Caylee case. ( missing toddler from Florida - now confirmed as deceased ).

 

I Know, I know, I know ... When driving a big screw you need a bigger HAMMER

 

DP

Edited January 3, 2009 by Maximus XX!V

[Maximus XX!V]

Well now,

A different twist. Lets just say that a law enforcement agency had a curiousness about a particular individual, for what ever reason, it might not be a far stretch that a warrant might be obtained, records retrieved ... poor pity the dumb box of rocks that by happenstance just happened to be in the area and took a similar road trip. Sure a good attorney could fill in the gaps, however, poor Joe Dipstick might not get the brightest nor most motivated bulb in the package. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Sounds a little Orwellian doesn't it ( George Orwell "1984" )

 

However, it might have been nice to have had the technology in place when trying to unravel the Caylee case. ( missing toddler from Florida - now confirmed as deceased ).

 

I Know, I know, I know ... When driving a big screw you need a bigger HAMMER

 

We are already there with GPS enabled phones. Much more useful for LE.

 

Orwell was correct, just about 70 years off.

 

Cars already have computers that track all your moves in the car. No need for a GPS, just tap into that computer. The interesting thing about government inquiries in my experience is that they only know just enough about any particular subject to either implement rules that require complex and expensive solutions or fix the problem while creating 4 other, bigger problems.

[+humboldt flier]

Well now,

A different twist. Lets just say that a law enforcement agency had a curiousness about a particular individual, for what ever reason, it might not be a far stretch that a warrant might be obtained, records retrieved ... poor pity the dumb box of rocks that by happenstance just happened to be in the area and took a similar road trip. Sure a good attorney could fill in the gaps, however, poor Joe Dipstick might not get the brightest nor most motivated bulb in the package. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Sounds a little Orwellian doesn't it ( George Orwell "1984" )

 

However, it might have been nice to have had the technology in place when trying to unravel the Caylee case. ( missing toddler from Florida - now confirmed as deceased ).

 

I Know, I know, I know ... When driving a big screw you need a bigger HAMMER

 

We are already there with GPS enabled phones. Much more useful for LE.

 

Orwell was correct, just about 70 years off.I agree and a big 10-4

 

Cars already have computers that track all your moves in the car. No need for a GPS, just tap into that computer. The interesting thing about government inquiries in my experience is that they only know just enough about any particular subject to either implement rules that require complex and expensive solutions or fix the problem while creating 4 other, bigger problems.

[+dakboy]

However, it might have been nice to have had the technology in place when trying to unravel the Caylee case. ( missing toddler from Florida - now confirmed as deceased ).

Congratulations! You're the first to invoke the "think of the children" notion that will be used to justify these invasions of privacy.

[+humboldt flier]

However, it might have been nice to have had the technology in place when trying to unravel the Caylee case. ( missing toddler from Florida - now confirmed as deceased ).

Congratulations! You're the first to invoke the "think of the children" notion that will be used to justify these invasions of privacy.

I am sure " they " are many steps ahead of me on that path. Edited January 4, 2009 by humboldt flier

[robertlipe]

This conversation is getting no closer to "GPS and Technology" despite requests that it do so. Closing. Please help keep this forum about "GPS and Technology".

 

Signed,

The Grumpy Moderator.