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Bomb squad blows up another cache


BooBooBee
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We have a cacher local seekers have dubbed Dr. Evil 'cause, well, his caches are typically QUITE tough to find! So, how is it a muggle came upon this one, reported it and the bomb squad managed to attempt to detonate it?

 

I had one of my caches shot by a sheriff's deputy a couple of years back. The error was fully mine. Poor placement. (Who knew a muggle would find it there!?) It has since been slightly relocated and renamed to reflect its history.

 

How many more have been mistaken by the bomb squad? You'd think they'd know about this sport by now. (And really, who would put a bomb in the trees along a bike trail? Sure, it's somewhat near a smalltown airport, but not THAT close!) :rolleyes:

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We geocachers just have to find a way to get the message to LEOs about our game so that:

 

Police examined the object and determined it to be suspicious and called the bomb squad,

 

Instead becomes

 

Police examined the object and checked its location via a well known free website before determining it was safe.
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We geocachers just have to find a way to get the message to LEOs about our game so that:

 

Police examined the object and determined it to be suspicious and called the bomb squad,

 

Instead becomes

 

Police examined the object and checked its location via a well known free website before determining it was safe.

 

I've said this many times and have been met with criticism a few times! It isn't too hard to go to your local LEO's and give them a GC101, going to the paper and having something put in the paper isn't hard either!

 

I approached both the local LEO and the state LEO and had chats with them, whether it's been helpful or not is still to be seen, but at least a few LEOs have been made aware!!

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It isn't the responsibility of LEO to know or understand our game; it's our responsibility to hide caches in appropriate places and with appropriate permission, so as not to have the incidents happen.

 

Permission of managers and landowners would greatly decrease bomb squad involvement, because most private property owners would soon notice a bunch of cops and simply go out and speak to them. Public land managers (if caches have been properly permitted) should be aware of all cache locations.

 

The problem lies in the fact that some hiders and finders want to play Secret Agent and skulk around like some cold-war spy. This leads to citizens noting our behavior, or leads to hides in inappropriate places or methods. All those lead to news articles like the one cited in this thread.

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It isn't the responsibility of LEO to know or understand our game; it's our responsibility to hide caches in appropriate places and with appropriate permission, so as not to have the incidents happen.

 

Permission of managers and landowners would greatly decrease bomb squad involvement, because most private property owners would soon notice a bunch of cops and simply go out and speak to them. Public land managers (if caches have been properly permitted) should be aware of all cache locations.

 

The problem lies in the fact that some hiders and finders want to play Secret Agent and skulk around like some cold-war spy. This leads to citizens noting our behavior, or leads to hides in inappropriate places or methods. All those lead to news articles like the one cited in this thread.

 

You are partially right, but even caches placed WITH permission could be blown up! All it takes is for someone to see strange behavior or to find one of these by accident and then the LEO take over. The land manager won't help even if they know of the cache unless they themselves are the ones making the report! Also, once the bomb squad is called, it's almost a given the cache will be blown up! Land managers won't stop this from happening even if they are about to lend a hand!

 

Having the LEO know about our activities, have an idea of what we use for cache containers and where we tend to play is a BIG bonus!!

 

And of course it isn't the LEO's responsibility, it's OUR responsibility...and we should do all we can to protect our fun!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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It isn't the responsibility of LEO to know or understand our game; it's our responsibility to hide caches in appropriate places and with appropriate permission, so as not to have the incidents happen.

 

Permission of managers and landowners would greatly decrease bomb squad involvement, because most private property owners would soon notice a bunch of cops and simply go out and speak to them. Public land managers (if caches have been properly permitted) should be aware of all cache locations.

 

While I fully agree with this statement, their have been many caches placed with permission, blown up, and discussed here in the forums previously.

 

The problem lies in the fact that some hiders and finders want to play Secret Agent and skulk around like some cold-war spy. This leads to citizens noting our behavior, or leads to hides in inappropriate places or methods. All those lead to news articles like the one cited in this thread.

 

When you look at the google maps picture of the cache linked by the original poster, you can clearly see, the area is visible to the general public, from the East. I guess too many cachers think they are James Bond :rolleyes: .

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It's very simple. Muggle calls police about suspicious thing. The Police don't want to make the wrong decision so they call the bomb squad. The bomb squad knows how to do one thing and do it well. Goodbye cache. You can visit with you local LEOs but in this day and age of suspected terror attacks around every corner they will call the boys with the bang just to make sure there is no threat. I bet even LEOs that cache will call the bomb squad.

 

Jim

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It's very simple. Muggle calls police about suspicious thing. The Police don't want to make the wrong decision so they call the bomb squad. The bomb squad knows how to do one thing and do it well. Goodbye cache. You can visit with you local LEOs but in this day and age of suspected terror attacks around every corner they will call the boys with the bang just to make sure there is no threat. I bet even LEOs that cache will call the bomb squad.

 

Jim

 

That may be how it works in the bigger cities, but I'm thinking I made a big impact with the LEO's I spoke with, having also been interviewed for the Sunday paper was also a big help. Not only did it help for the LEO's, but made more citizens aware as well. I've also talked with members of a few of the neighboring towns' LEOs and have found some are cachers...which also helps, at least around here!

 

Of course, we're not nearly as terror-scared as most larger cities!

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Even if LEO is aware and understands, there is more to it than just that. I don't know the exact location of every cache in my county, so a cache not identified is still a problem.

 

If a citizen calls and the cache isn't known to that particular officer, then it is still a suspicious container. LEO doesn't have the time, equipment or inclination to go surfing the web when a situation is presented.

 

Why isn't it just a better thing all around to hide caches so they aren't going to cause undue attention from non-cachers?

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Even if LEO is aware and understands, there is more to it than just that. I don't know the exact location of every cache in my county, so a cache not identified is still a problem.

 

If a citizen calls and the cache isn't known to that particular officer, then it is still a suspicious container. LEO doesn't have the time, equipment or inclination to go surfing the web when a situation is presented.

 

Why isn't it just a better thing all around to hide caches so they aren't going to cause undue attention from non-cachers?

I think it is far cheaper to spend a few minutes on a website then send out the bomb squad and blow the thing up. :rolleyes: At least give some thought to the fact it might be a Geocache. That too is being responsible to the public as a whole.

 

Ok - lets suppose for just a moment (mostly because we don't not know otherwise) that the cache in question that sparked this thread had full permission to be where it was.

 

Do you see any indication they called the land manager of that pathway to see if he/she knew what it was?? - I don't. Don't think that permission or placement had a lot to do with this incident. If there is evidence to the contrary - I am not seeing it.

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We have a cacher local seekers have dubbed Dr. Evil 'cause, well, his caches are typically QUITE tough to find! So, how is it a muggle came upon this one, reported it and the bomb squad managed to attempt to detonate it?

 

I had one of my caches shot by a sheriff's deputy a couple of years back. The error was fully mine. Poor placement. (Who knew a muggle would find it there!?) It has since been slightly relocated and renamed to reflect its history.

 

How many more have been mistaken by the bomb squad? You'd think they'd know about this sport by now. (And really, who would put a bomb in the trees along a bike trail? Sure, it's somewhat near a smalltown airport, but not THAT close!) :rolleyes:

 

The cache in question was given a difficulty rating of 2 which means "Average. The average cache hunter would be able to find this in less than 30 minutes of hunting." That was quoted from the Geocaching Rating System. There are a good number of cachers who started caching with out using a GPSr and were very successful. There was even a forum discussion a few months ago where someone asked if a GPSr was necessary. So it wouldn't surprise me that someone after viewing a couple cache finders looking for a cache would be able to find the cache themselves without knowing exactly what they are looking for and only having a general idea of where it is. Geocachers do that all the time!

 

The person who said location, location, location had it right at least in my opinion. What makes this cache different from others in the area? The other caches in the area haven't drawn the attention that this one did. There are two caches on the same trail, along beside the same stretch of road, and hidden by the same cacher. I think that one thing this cache has going against it that other don't is that it is hidden in some cover. Someone spending more than just a few minutes in the trees draws more suspicion than someone wandering around out in the open. Another observation about location. As a citizen I'd be very curious if I saw people disappearing in to trees nearby what appears to be a very busy intersection.

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Even if LEO is aware and understands, there is more to it than just that. I don't know the exact location of every cache in my county, so a cache not identified is still a problem.

 

If a citizen calls and the cache isn't known to that particular officer, then it is still a suspicious container. LEO doesn't have the time, equipment or inclination to go surfing the web when a situation is presented.

 

Why isn't it just a better thing all around to hide caches so they aren't going to cause undue attention from non-cachers?

I think it is far cheaper to spend a few minutes on a website then send out the bomb squad and blow the thing up. :rolleyes: At least give some thought to the fact it might be a Geocache. That too is being responsible to the public as a whole.

 

Ok - lets suppose for just a moment (mostly because we don't not know otherwise) that the cache in question that sparked this thread had full permission to be where it was.

 

Do you see any indication they called the land manager of that pathway to see if he/she knew what it was?? - I don't. Don't think that permission or placement had a lot to do with this incident. If there is evidence to the contrary - I am not seeing it.

 

I think this sums it up ....

If a citizen calls and the cache isn't known to that particular officer, then it is still a suspicious container. LEO doesn't have the time, equipment or inclination to go surfing the web when a situation is presented.

 

Got a suspected bomb, LEO doesn't have a laptop with internet connectivity and really doesn't want to make a bad call. Besides the citizen doesn't want to see the LEO sitting in the cruiser cruising the net, they want action NOW. What if a clever terrorist removed the cache and replaced it with a bomb? Much easier to call the boys with the bang and let them deal with it, besides the citizen gets a good show and the boys with the bang get some practice. I think unless the LEO has done that particular cache your always going to have the bomb squad called. And with new caches popping up every day, how is the LEO going to know about all of them. Good grief, you will be visiting the LEOs on a daily basis and some one won't get the word.

 

I think the advice given is very good ... hide them so they don't draw attention by the muggles.

 

Jim

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Ok so the officer on scene doesn't have a laptop. Surely somebody at the dispatch office does. Or maybe if we establish some good relationships with the police they can just call local cacher and ask a few question - heck even do that while the bomb squad guys are rolling. Do Something rather than nothing. Just consider it might be a harmless Geocache that is all I ask.

 

I am trying to get everybody to avoid getting to this point and save a few taxpayer dollars...

 

Got a suspected bomb.....

 

The "we see something" - now automatically blow it up mentality is not too easy on public funds.

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I am a relatively new cacher. So far in my experiences, I have seen that more people are aware of geocaching then you would think.

 

Also, in one encounter with a park police officer, her was completely enlightened about geocaching.

 

In the case of the average Joe, when bringing out geocaching, at first they do not know what it is, but when I explain it, most people say they that have herd about that, just didnt know it was called geocaching.

 

I think as the sport grows, there will be more awareness of it. I think the area has something to do with it as well.

 

One of my favorite container finds was near a mine. right outside the entrance in fact, under a rock. The container resembled at first something that may be an explosive, or a detonator. But in large yellow letters it said. "NO DANGER!! NOT A BOMB. OFFICIAL GEOCACHE"

 

I don't think it is a bad idea in the case of a cache that may seem fishy to a muggle if they stumble across it, to have something on it like "OFFICIAL GEOCACHE GAME PIECE". This way at a glance you will know it is nothing dangerous.

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Even if LEO is aware and understands, there is more to it than just that. I don't know the exact location of every cache in my county, so a cache not identified is still a problem.

 

If a citizen calls and the cache isn't known to that particular officer, then it is still a suspicious container. LEO doesn't have the time, equipment or inclination to go surfing the web when a situation is presented.

 

Why isn't it just a better thing all around to hide caches so they aren't going to cause undue attention from non-cachers?

 

As has been stated, well hidden caches have been blown up, some of the best placed caches have been muggled in the past. Hiding in good places is a good idea, but letting others in on our fun HELPS also!! The more caches an LEO knows about, the more chances this will be averted in the future! Will telling the LEO's about caching help every one?? NO, but it's a start! :rolleyes:

 

I don't think there was a single post suggesting hiding better wasn't a good idea...

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A friend of mine who is a mechanic in the French Air Force told me this story.

 

During some recent elevation of the terror threat level from"pink with blue spots" to "mauve with yellow spots" or whatever random number they make up based on what the newspapers have decided to worry about today :rolleyes:, he was drafted in to Paris CDG airport and told to stand there with a (non-automatic) weapon, looking reassuring to the public and mean to terrorists at the same time.

 

One afternoon, some guy in the departure hall wandered off to the washroom leaving a small bag by his seat. By the time the guy got back, the bomb squad had arrived. Despite the guy saying to them, "that's my bag, it has my passport in it, let me show you", they physically pushed him back behind a security barrier and proceeded to blow it up. :unsure:

 

My friend was appalled and told me that when he asked the bomb squad guys about it afterwards, they basically thought it was hugely funny. Either these guys like to blow stuff up, or they have the same kind of protocol as traffic cops (once they start to write the ticket, they have to finish).

 

Now of course France could be completely different from other countries in this regard... or not.

Edited by sTeamTraen
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I spent 35 yrs in law enforcement at the federal and state level. I've been on hundreds of bomb calls in my career. Most were bogus but quite a few weren't. While some posters here thoughts are admirable the fact remains that LE has to err on the side of caution. When it comes to things that may be a risk to a person's life there is no other way but to first consider the worst case scenario. Unlike most of your jobs you don't get a second chance to be wrong in LE. For most of you in your jobs if you make a mistake then the boss doesn't get to make as much money this year or you lose a sale or you have to do the task over. In LE when you make a mistake such as the wrong assumption on things such as a possible bomb you place others at risk of their lives. No do-overs, people get hurt or killed. Imagine what would happen if the call comes in of a suspicious item and LE disregards the call as being a geocache in the same area. Then later on someone else opens this item and it blows up, killing or injurying. Will these same do-gooders be so quick to give LE the benefit of a doubt then? Not at all. They'll be the first to complain that LE didn't do enough.

The OP opined "(And really, who would put a bomb in the trees along a bike trail? Sure, it's somewhat near a smalltown airport, but not THAT close!) " This just shows a very common, and erroneous, misconception by those who are not trained. People get all their LE training by watching TV. That will get people killed. It shows a complete lack of knowledge of what's going on around them in life. So who would place a bomb in the trees? Simple. Someone practicing making bombs. What you don't realize is that on average when you read about someone placing a bomb is they've already made at least 10 practice bombs trying to perfect the one that they finally place. Of those 10 (on average) that they've previously made at least 3 didn't go off and were abandoned. These bomb makers go out in the woods away from people where they practice their product to make sure what they've built will actually work. So why would someone place a bomb in the woods along a trail? Could it be one of those other 9 practice bombs that didn't go off and were abandoned? No one knows until it's checked out. It's kind of late afterwards if you just assume it's nothing but it turns out to be one of the abandoned ones. You assume, you lose.

In the bomb business we have names for people who assume. The lucky ones are named "Stubby", "Lefty", "One Eye", "2 Fingers Joey". The unlucky ones are named "Deceased".

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So who would place a bomb in the trees? Simple. Someone practicing making bombs. What you don't realize is that on average when you read about someone placing a bomb is they've already made at least 10 practice bombs trying to perfect the one that they finally place. Of those 10 (on average) that they've previously made at least 3 didn't go off and were abandoned. These bomb makers go out in the woods away from people where they practice their product to make sure what they've built will actually work. So why would someone place a bomb in the woods along a trail? Could it be one of those other 9 practice bombs that didn't go off and were abandoned? No one knows until it's checked out. It's kind of late afterwards if you just assume it's nothing but it turns out to be one of the abandoned ones. You assume, you lose.

In the bomb business we have names for people who assume. The lucky ones are named "Stubby", "Lefty", "One Eye", "2 Fingers Joey". The unlucky ones are named "Deceased".

 

Very enlightening, Wadcutter! Thanks for that educated perspective.

 

While I'm not completely oblivious to what's going on around me in life (and kinda take exception to that from someone who has NO idea who I am, what I do or who my relations might be - not ranting, just sayin') I do tend to be an optimist. You've shown me that optimism can be deadly.

 

A family member with whom I've been talking about this issue works is a local LEO. He actually suggested I offer a GC101 to his department, but added that when push comes to shove they're unlikely to lookup GC.COm to make sure this might not be a cache. As he put it, what if someone DID manage to put a bomb in the same mall where a cache was hidden? Would we REALLY want to read, "Police mistakenly identified the container as a playing piece in a worldwide game. XX officers were critically wounded. XX bystanders were injured."

 

Thinking about this from the perspective of LEO (and their families) I have to say I'd MUCH rather see the money and time spent blowing up a geocache than see another LE family lose one of their own. Containers can be replaced (and with more stealth and proper permission). Lives cannot.

 

When I started caching, I used those GC.com green labels. They're fantastic, but tough on cammo. Officers aren't going to peel through the cammo layer to get to the contact info label. And the micros we have around here now do not have ANY space for contact info. Then again, micros aren't something muggles and LEOs are finding.

 

Let's label, educate, obtain permission and properly and safely enjoy this game. :blink:

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While I'm not completely oblivious to what's going on around me in life (and kinda take exception to that from someone who has NO idea who I am, what I do or who my relations might be - not ranting, just sayin') I do tend to be an optimist. You've shown me that optimism can be deadly.

You might not think so but you are the one who posted the comment doubting someone would place a bomb in the trees. You're right I don't know who you are and you may not be "completely oblivious" but had you known about bombers and bombing then you wouldn't have made the statement. The answer would have already been obvious to you. There are a lot more of the practice bombs being set than the actual bombings you are reading/hearing about, about 10 times as many.

As far as not acting according to standard proceedure if you think back to the 1996 Atlanta Olympic bombings and recall the grief the guy got because people didn't think he acted fast enough. He saw an abandoned backpack where backpacks were not unusual. He acted to get people out of the way as a precaution but didn't get enough moved fast enough. Even tho he acted properly he still took criticism over his actions.

RE notifying police - Police have been made aware of Geocaching thru nationwide bulletins since not long after Geocaching started. That's how I learned of Geocaching in late 2001. At least 3 different times since then have nationwide bulletins been sent to every law enforcement agency in the US.

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You might not think so but you are the one who posted the comment doubting someone would place a bomb in the trees.

 

WOW...slap! :)

 

As far as not acting according to standard proceedure if you think back to the 1996 Atlanta Olympic bombings and recall the grief the guy got because people didn't think he acted fast enough.

 

Uh...I think I was AGREEING that it's better to blow up a cache than to blow up a human. Settle down a bit, will you!? :blink:

 

At least 3 different times since then have nationwide bulletins been sent to every law enforcement agency in the US.

 

Riiiiight...and every officer saw them, I'm sure.

 

Sorry I posted this. Could have served as an educational tool for all sides, a healthy discussion. But "Wad" completely ruined the vibe.

 

Let's mark our caches, everyone, get permission and let's be safe out there.

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Just stating facts. Sorry you took offense. However, they were your words.

It's just that what a person thinks isn't always the case and there are reasons things are done the way they are. As stated previously people tend to get the "knowledge" of LE practices from TV and the movies. They don't have a clue what is involved but many think they do because they saw it on TV. If things actually worked like TV all crimes would be solved in 41 minutes from the time the crime was committed until the subject was arrested. If life were only so simple as people think.

As to whether every LEO saw the notices it's a given that probably not. However, the notices were sent. If an agency failed to dispurse them to Troops on the street that's the fault of the individual agencies. But the fact remains intel bulletins have been sent to every agency in the US at least 3 different times. That doesn't even include all the newspaper articles and TV programs where geocaching was featured that was available to everyone.

Edited by Wadcutter
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It isn't the responsibility of LEO to know or understand our game; it's our responsibility to hide caches in appropriate places and with appropriate permission, so as not to have the incidents happen.

 

Permission of managers and landowners would greatly decrease bomb squad involvement, because most private property owners would soon notice a bunch of cops and simply go out and speak to them. Public land managers (if caches have been properly permitted) should be aware of all cache locations.

 

The problem lies in the fact that some hiders and finders want to play Secret Agent and skulk around like some cold-war spy. This leads to citizens noting our behavior, or leads to hides in inappropriate places or methods. All those lead to news articles like the one cited in this thread.

 

You hit the nail squarely on the head. Agree 100%!

Edited by RanHefner
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I am trying to get everybody to avoid getting to this point and save a few taxpayer dollars...

 

If you want to save tax dollars, hide the cache so that it doesn't draw undue attention.

 

You just don't get it, do you? even the BEST PLACED HIDE can end up on the bomb squad's hit list...sure, hiding better DOES help, but it isn't fool proof and continuing to say what is PAINFULLY obvious doesn't add to helping save taxpayer money! You do realize that even the best hidden caches could be given away by a FINDER'S bad actions...right?? It's not all about placing the hide as best as can be...there's soooo much more to it than this!

 

YES, make the hides better....but does getting more of the LEO's informed hurt things...NO! It's good help and can stop a situation from happening. I know, it's a waste of time...right?? Well, that attitude surely goes a long way in helping! :blink:

 

The way I see it, a GOOD and responsible idea was thrown out there and some of you come here and pretend the idea was sinister or foolish...I believe we're all on the same page, but I think some of us are trying to do a bit MORE to protect our fun.

 

Lastly, until you can teach each and every hider in the world to follow YOUR suggestion, maybe making attempts to help in other ways would be a better solution? Some can't even agree on when permission is needed, so how can we expect people to make thier hides invisible to mugglers and LEOs...let alone someone else in the cache area who might notice strange behavior??

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It would be pretty easy for a terrorist or a high school kid or anyone else to replace the cache with a bomb so the police or bomb squad aren't going to look and say it is a cache. They are going to err on the side of caution and blow it up. We have had a couple blown up here. If someone has a problem with a cache now a days all they have to do is call the police about suspicious activity and the cache is gone.

We have have had a couple blown up here. The police know about geocaching but they aren't going to take a chance

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I think we all have to realize that this game is just that...a game. That's all it is. It is not a God-given right and it isn't covered by the Constitution or local law. We have to operate with that premise in mind.

 

On the other hand, LEO take an oath to protect citizens and part of that entails trying to keep them safe, whether from within or without. If that means that a film canister, PVC pipe, (insert cache container here) gets blown up, then it is something that just has to be chalked up to experience. It's just too bad.

 

We play this game knowing full well that some of our hides are going to be noticed by non-gamers. That's the way life is. Telling every LEO in the world about geocaching won't change the fact that caches will be seen, reported, and more than likely, destroyed.

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I think we all have to realize that this game is just that...a game. That's all it is. It is not a God-given right and it isn't covered by the Constitution or local law. We have to operate with that premise in mind.

 

On the other hand, LEO take an oath to protect citizens and part of that entails trying to keep them safe, whether from within or without. If that means that a film canister, PVC pipe, (insert cache container here) gets blown up, then it is something that just has to be chalked up to experience. It's just too bad.

 

We play this game knowing full well that some of our hides are going to be noticed by non-gamers. That's the way life is. Telling every LEO in the world about geocaching won't change the fact that caches will be seen, reported, and more than likely, destroyed.

 

I beg to differ. Letting them in on our fun gives them insight into what we might be doing! Even if it ONLY helps one cache, it was worth the effort! I will continue to let them know about our fun whenever I get the chance...which includes taking them a map of all of my hides, just like I do with the owners of the properties I hide caches in!

 

I see nowhere where anyone said we had a right to play this game, I see some saying it's best to bring others into the know! This would include the nosy neighbor(s) if it'll help! I've been directed in the right direction a few times by locals in the know...these are OBVIOUSLY people who'll not be calling the cops!!

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I think we all have to realize that this game is just that...a game. That's all it is. It is not a God-given right and it isn't covered by the Constitution or local law. We have to operate with that premise in mind.

 

On the other hand, LEO take an oath to protect citizens and part of that entails trying to keep them safe, whether from within or without. If that means that a film canister, PVC pipe, (insert cache container here) gets blown up, then it is something that just has to be chalked up to experience. It's just too bad.

 

We play this game knowing full well that some of our hides are going to be noticed by non-gamers. That's the way life is. Telling every LEO in the world about geocaching won't change the fact that caches will be seen, reported, and more than likely, destroyed.

 

The Constitution does not tell us what we can do, it tells the government what it can not do.

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It isn't the responsibility of LEO to know or understand our game; it's our responsibility to hide caches in appropriate places and with appropriate permission, so as not to have the incidents happen....

 

Two nits:

 

It is the LEO responsiblity to know their public and make the world safer for us all to do the things that make life worth living. Things like caching.

 

The other is that there is no such place and no level of permission that will prevent this from happening. Permission is not one of the questions that determins the level of responce.

 

Hiding a cache so a muggle doens't find it is the best form of prevention. The next level or prevention is damage control and it only kicks in when you already have a problem.

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I think we all have to realize that this game is just that...a game. That's all it is. It is not a God-given right and it isn't covered by the Constitution or local law....

 

It's a family activity and it falls under the "Life Liberty, and Persuit of Happyness" section of the assorted papwerwork that jusitfied the founding of this nation. You are 100% right it's not a constituational right. But 100% wrong in that the government should be doing everthing it can to encourage it's citizens to enjoy LLPH. Vice versa doesn't work so well.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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It should also be noted that we have freedom of speech, assembly, association, movement, liberty, and expression. One could certainly argue that playing the game is covered under these freedoms. As such, it would be darn near impossible for the government to actually outlaw geocaching. Putting an actual ban on the hobby would no doubt violate a number of these freedoms. The government could, obviously, state that no physical caches could be placed on land that the government controls, but this is quite different than an attempt to 'outlaw' the game.

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The Constitution doesn't protect pursuit of happiness. That is a clause in the Declaration of Independence and was written by an individual. It doesn't carry the weight of law. It is a declaration of intent. However, that is not the point.

 

I'm not talking about the right to hide caches...and never said I was.

 

I was talking about the right of Government to not be hindered in their use of whatever they deem necessary to protect the citizens they are sworn to protect.

 

The time-honored test of an individual's rights is the "arm swing" test. Your right to swing your amrs ends when my nose begins. The same thing applies here. Your right to have a cache ends when my safety (as an uninformed and responsible individual) begins.

 

The bottom line is that we place objects on other people's property (whether the property is used by the public or not) and others have the right to call LEO. When they do, LEO has the right to blow up the cache if they feel the object has the possibility of being dangerous.

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The Constitution doesn't protect pursuit of happiness. That is a clause in the Declaration of Independence and was written by an individual. It doesn't carry the weight of law. It is a declaration of intent. However, that is not the point.

 

I'm not talking about the right to hide caches...and never said I was.

 

I was talking about the right of Government to not be hindered in their use of whatever they deem necessary to protect the citizens they are sworn to protect.

 

The time-honored test of an individual's rights is the "arm swing" test. Your right to swing your amrs ends when my nose begins. The same thing applies here. Your right to have a cache ends when my safety (as an uninformed and responsible individual) begins.

 

The bottom line is that we place objects on other people's property (whether the property is used by the public or not) and others have the right to call LEO. When they do, LEO has the right to blow up the cache if they feel the object has the possibility of being dangerous.

It does not follow that it wasn't fully within our rights to place the cache in the first place.
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The Constitution doesn't protect pursuit of happiness. That is a clause in the Declaration of Independence and was written by an individual. It doesn't carry the weight of law. It is a declaration of intent. However, that is not the point....

 

That is the point. The Declaration of Independence laid out the framework for which this nation would be built to carry forward. That intent is the foundation of everthing else. When courts are splitting hairs over what the constituation really means they need to look back at the intent. We need to carry the intent in our blood, lest when we are in a position to make this country less free we give into the temptation to do just that to make our job easier.

 

As for the comment about safety. Since a cache was, is, and remains harmless by it's very nature it stands to logic and reason that how those in power choose to react or overreact is their choice and never the fault of the cache. After all it was always harmless and part of a family friendly activity.

 

What exactly is your point? That caches should be willing to give up their lives for the greater good? If so, we agree. That cache onwers should be restricted from ever placing a cache that could potentially cause the authorities to react in some way? Then we part ways. No cache, no object, no person can ever make that claim. Life happens to us all.

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We recently had a situation take place just a few weeks ago in a town called "Woodburn" (about 20 minutes out of Portland)

 

A phone call was made to a bank stating that there was a bomb on the property. The police were called out, searched high and low and found a suspicious object in the bushes outside the bank. The police determined that the object was harmless (but opened it just to make sure). Later on (the same day I believe), another call was made to a bank across the street, again stating that a bomb was on the property. The bomb squad again searched the property and found another suspicious object. They again determined the object to be harmless (perhaps based on the previous call earlier in the day). They brought the object into the bank and opened it. Two law enforcement officers were killed on the spot when the bomb went off, another was critically injured (I believe he lost his leg) and an employee of the bank was also injured.

 

Law enforcement needs to treat *ANY* suspicious object as if it were a real bomb, regardless of a sticker placed on the box or whether its listed on a website. The bomb squad officer thought it was safe when it wasn't. Just because a box is listed on a website or because it's got a geocaching sticker on it does not mean that it's safe.

 

I wouldn't bet my life because of a sticker or the word of someone who runs a website several thousand miles away.

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I still think it is a good idea to let local LEOs be a bit more "in the know".

 

......and...... ok fair enough - if the general thinking is be safe not sorry - blow it up (no matter what it is) and then ask questions later - then I think it only fair to stop trying to "charge" somebody either monetarily or criminally for having placed a cache. We all can't be responsible for how people react to seeing our plastic boxes in/near a tree (whether in sight of somebody or way off in the back woods).

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I still think it is a good idea to let local LEOs be a bit more "in the know".

 

......and...... ok fair enough - if the general thinking is be safe not sorry - blow it up (no matter what it is) and then ask questions later - then I think it only fair to stop trying to "charge" somebody either monetarily or criminally for having placed a cache. We all can't be responsible for how people react to seeing our plastic boxes in/near a tree (whether in sight of somebody or way off in the back woods).

 

I agree... Intent is everything. If the cache is placed legally and in accordance with the agreed-to placement guidelines, then nothing should happen to the owner of the cache. Unfortunately, logic doesn't always win when emotions are involved.

 

There are too many "suspicious" packages and objects that are not geocaches, where checking with geocaching.com would be a useless and time-wasting step. So what if it's not listed on geocaching.com? It doesn't mean anything. If it is listed on geocaching.com, that doesn't mean anything either.. There could have been a geocache near the bank, or even near the bomb that was placed. It's just better to be cautious, especially when lives are at stake.

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LEOs don't, and won't, and shouldn't, check with Groundspeak.

 

They do, however. most likely check with the land owner or manager.

 

Don't want your cache blown up? Make sure it has adequate permission.

 

Simple, really.

 

I agree with you, but, I can think of one instance where permission was obtained and the cache was still blown up and charges filed. A quick search for "bomb" turned up a bagillion matches and I wasn't able to find the thread, but it happened some time this year.

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LEOs don't, and won't, and shouldn't, check with Groundspeak.

 

They do, however. most likely check with the land owner or manager.

 

Don't want your cache blown up? Make sure it has adequate permission.

 

Simple, really.

 

I agree with you, but, I can think of one instance where permission was obtained and the cache was still blown up and charges filed. A quick search for "bomb" turned up a bagillion matches and I wasn't able to find the thread, but it happened some time this year.

Actually, there has been two or three threads over the years regarding 'permissioned' caches that have been 'made safe'.

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LEOs don't, and won't, and shouldn't, check with Groundspeak.

 

They do, however. most likely check with the land owner or manager.

 

Don't want your cache blown up? Make sure it has adequate permission.

 

Simple, really.

 

I agree with you, but, I can think of one instance where permission was obtained and the cache was still blown up and charges filed. A quick search for "bomb" turned up a bagillion matches and I wasn't able to find the thread, but it happened some time this year.

 

Yes, permission only goes so far! Letting LEOs know about our fun would likely help even if they don't go so far as to map out all the caches in their area (I realize many places couldn't possibly do this due to the MANY caches in the area). Having the LEOs know there's a game out there where we pace and find containers might just make a difference when it comes to the decision whether to call bomb squad or not!

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LEOs don't, and won't, and shouldn't, check with Groundspeak.

 

They do, however. most likely check with the land owner or manager.

 

Don't want your cache blown up? Make sure it has adequate permission.

 

Simple, really.

 

I agree with you, but, I can think of one instance where permission was obtained and the cache was still blown up and charges filed. A quick search for "bomb" turned up a bagillion matches and I wasn't able to find the thread, but it happened some time this year.

 

Yes, permission only goes so far! Letting LEOs know about our fun would likely help even if they don't go so far as to map out all the caches in their area (I realize many places couldn't possibly do this due to the MANY caches in the area). Having the LEOs know there's a game out there where we pace and find containers might just make a difference when it comes to the decision whether to call bomb squad or not!

 

Well put AR

 

On my Soapbox

 

Everyone Bit**es about needing permits well this is a reason. This is the third bomb scare I remember in the last 2 (or so) years in the southern Ohio area. Tim Hortons is not public property, it is PRIVATE property for public use just like Walmart, Home Depot, City Parks, County Parks, State Parks, etc... It is the responsibility of the land owner / manager to insure their property is safe for public use. The easy thing to do is ask permission so we don't have future situations like this one. If this continues Geocaching.com may have to require written permission before approvers can approve new caches.

 

Off my Soapbox

 

Everyone have a Happy New Year!

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LEOs don't, and won't, and shouldn't, check with Groundspeak.

 

They do, however. most likely check with the land owner or manager.

 

Don't want your cache blown up? Make sure it has adequate permission.

 

Simple, really.

 

I agree with you, but, I can think of one instance where permission was obtained and the cache was still blown up and charges filed. A quick search for "bomb" turned up a bagillion matches and I wasn't able to find the thread, but it happened some time this year.

 

Yes, permission only goes so far! Letting LEOs know about our fun would likely help even if they don't go so far as to map out all the caches in their area (I realize many places couldn't possibly do this due to the MANY caches in the area). Having the LEOs know there's a game out there where we pace and find containers might just make a difference when it comes to the decision whether to call bomb squad or not!

 

So what? How does a LEO's knowledge of the existence of the game effect their decision about a suspicious package? They would be irresponsible leaving any suspicious package in place without knowing 100% that it was safe, regardless if there are stickers or a geocache is *suppose* to be located there. How do you make 100% sure that it's safe? BLOW IT UP...

 

Reminds me of the attitude certain citizens have regarding the "center of mass" rule. They think the cops should be able to shoot the gun out of the criminals hand (like life is some dirty harry movie). "Why'd they have to kill him? Couldn't they just shoot him in the leg or something".... Put yourself in the bomb squads position. You've got family at home and you're looking at a suspicious package. Would you bet your life or someone else's life and just leave the suspicious item there because it *MIGHT* be safe?

 

Where did common sense go folks?

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...

On my Soapbox

 

Everyone Bit**es about needing permits well this is a reason. This is the third bomb scare I remember in the last 2 (or so) years in the southern Ohio area. Tim Hortons is not public property, it is PRIVATE property for public use just like Walmart, Home Depot, City Parks, County Parks, State Parks, etc... It is the responsibility of the land owner / manager to insure their property is safe for public use. The easy thing to do is ask permission so we don't have future situations like this one. If this continues Geocaching.com may have to require written permission before approvers can approve new caches.

 

Off my Soapbox

 

Everyone have a Happy New Year!

Private property that doesn't charge to allow for public use has no obligation to make sure it's fit for use, safe or anything else. There is no contract, thus no obligation or expecation. This is law in some states. The responsiblity only kicks in when they are doing something where an expectation is created. Like a business or theme park.

 

The concept that permission will prevent a scare is false. Not even notorized permission, endorsed by the Sheriff's office, and recorded with the county recorder for all time and public posterity, under Department of Homeland Security Supervision would stop a scare. Scares are nothing more than the cost of doing business when you have a world with both bomb squads and bomb planting folks. False reports and responces are collateral damage in the real battle. Nothing more. They should be treated as such.

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