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Shock Danger of Electrified Objects (Lampposts, etc.) Revisited


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We must ultimately rely on our own common sense. We are each ultimately free to make our choices based on reality, or gut feeling, or both.

 

The ultimately responsible for the safety of the cache seeker, however, lies with the cache seeker himself – NOT the cache hider.

Therein lays the rub for me and I haven't landed on a final decision for myself which is why I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do with my hides that in some way or fashion are associated with electrical items. As a hider, I now view that drawing cachers into culverts or to ridgetops is different than drawing them to electrical equipment. The risk of sliding down a scree slope or slipping in a culvert and getting spit out the other end are fairly evident and I think it's easy for most people to assess what they are getting into. It's the appearance of the being "benign" when all may not be well that's giving me pause to think.
I agree. Also I don't think kids not knowing to stick their hand inside a loose panel on the side of a lamp post is common sense.
That's definitely true, and therefore hiding a cache INSIDE an access panel on a lamp post, WITH the wiring, is a bad idea. I've never actually come across a cache like this myself, all the LPCs I've found have been under the decorative lift up skirts that cover the bolts.

I've seen several open access panels over the years. I'm not sure how they got opened but I've had my suspicions (newbies). Anyhow, if you owned an LPC and someone reported that the access panel was open with exposed wires inside, what would you do as a cache owner?
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We must ultimately rely on our own common sense. We are each ultimately free to make our choices based on reality, or gut feeling, or both.

 

The ultimately responsible for the safety of the cache seeker, however, lies with the cache seeker himself – NOT the cache hider.

Therein lays the rub for me and I haven't landed on a final decision for myself which is why I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do with my hides that in some way or fashion are associated with electrical items. As a hider, I now view that drawing cachers into culverts or to ridgetops is different than drawing them to electrical equipment. The risk of sliding down a scree slope or slipping in a culvert and getting spit out the other end are fairly evident and I think it's easy for most people to assess what they are getting into. It's the appearance of the being "benign" when all may not be well that's giving me pause to think.
I agree. Also I don't think kids not knowing to stick their hand inside a loose panel on the side of a lamp post is common sense.
That's definitely true, and therefore hiding a cache INSIDE an access panel on a lamp post, WITH the wiring, is a bad idea. I've never actually come across a cache like this myself, all the LPCs I've found have been under the decorative lift up skirts that cover the bolts.

I've seen several open access panels over the years. I'm not sure how they got opened but I've had my suspicions (newbies). Anyhow, if you owned an LPC and someone reported that the access panel was open with exposed wires inside, what would you do as a cache owner?
What's your point?
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We must ultimately rely on our own common sense. We are each ultimately free to make our choices based on reality, or gut feeling, or both.

 

The ultimately responsible for the safety of the cache seeker, however, lies with the cache seeker himself – NOT the cache hider.

Therein lays the rub for me and I haven't landed on a final decision for myself which is why I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do with my hides that in some way or fashion are associated with electrical items. As a hider, I now view that drawing cachers into culverts or to ridgetops is different than drawing them to electrical equipment. The risk of sliding down a scree slope or slipping in a culvert and getting spit out the other end are fairly evident and I think it's easy for most people to assess what they are getting into. It's the appearance of the being "benign" when all may not be well that's giving me pause to think.
I agree. Also I don't think kids not knowing to stick their hand inside a loose panel on the side of a lamp post is common sense.
That's definitely true, and therefore hiding a cache INSIDE an access panel on a lamp post, WITH the wiring, is a bad idea. I've never actually come across a cache like this myself, all the LPCs I've found have been under the decorative lift up skirts that cover the bolts.

I've seen several open access panels over the years. I'm not sure how they got opened but I've had my suspicions (newbies). Anyhow, if you owned an LPC and someone reported that the access panel was open with exposed wires inside, what would you do as a cache owner?
What's your point?

I was just curious of you would try to report the open panel to the owner, try to fix the open panel, archive that cache or do nothing and let "common sense" take it's course. I also think it's a realistic scenario for some cacher hiders.

 

I'd be curious to hear a bunch of different opinions on how this should be handled...

Edited by TrailGators
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First, I'd email the owner telling of the problem and my concers, I'd also post a NM and put the cache on my watchlist. If the response is unfavorable, I'd SBA it and let the reviewer decide! (this is if I wasn't the owner...which I wouldn't be since I wouldn't place one of these) If I were the owner, I would archive it!

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We must ultimately rely on our own common sense. We are each ultimately free to make our choices based on reality, or gut feeling, or both.

 

The ultimately responsible for the safety of the cache seeker, however, lies with the cache seeker himself – NOT the cache hider.

Therein lays the rub for me and I haven't landed on a final decision for myself which is why I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do with my hides that in some way or fashion are associated with electrical items. As a hider, I now view that drawing cachers into culverts or to ridgetops is different than drawing them to electrical equipment. The risk of sliding down a scree slope or slipping in a culvert and getting spit out the other end are fairly evident and I think it's easy for most people to assess what they are getting into. It's the appearance of the being "benign" when all may not be well that's giving me pause to think.
I agree. Also I don't think kids not knowing to stick their hand inside a loose panel on the side of a lamp post is common sense.
That's definitely true, and therefore hiding a cache INSIDE an access panel on a lamp post, WITH the wiring, is a bad idea. I've never actually come across a cache like this myself, all the LPCs I've found have been under the decorative lift up skirts that cover the bolts.

I've seen several open access panels over the years. I'm not sure how they got opened but I've had my suspicions (newbies). Anyhow, if you owned an LPC and someone reported that the access panel was open with exposed wires inside, what would you do as a cache owner?
What's your point?

I was just curious of you would try to fix the open panel, archive that cache or do nothing and let "common sense" take it's course. I also think it's a realistic scenario for some cacher hiders.

Anyway, it's interesting how at the beginning of this thread folks were saying that the outsides of these items (Lamp posts, Transformers, etc.) were so risky that a cache ON or NEAR them was the problem. Several of us have pointed out the possibility was so low that the fatal risks were much higher with other aspects of the cache hunt. The backpedaling and insults by the anti-LPC crowd were a predictable result, while simultaneously ignoring questions posed by their debaters.

 

Typical.

 

So now I'm being asked what I would do if someone changed one of my safe caches into an unsafe one? I would obviously try to make it safe again, by either replacing the cover plate or moving the cache to a nearby safe spot such as another Lamp Post if that's the sort of hide I had to begin with.

 

It's the same answer I'd give if someone changed any aspect of any of my caches that I didn't want changed. I'd try to change it back if I could, or move the cache if I had to. Again, what's your point? Does how I'd fix a broken cache have anything to do with how safe the skirts of Lamp Posts are, or how safe the outside of a transformer is?

 

There have been multiple cases of cachers being seriously hurt while hunting for caches, there have been many examples of folks getting into car accidents on the way to caches (snoogans wreck while on the way to an Event comes to mind), but I have yet to see even one example of someone getting injured or shocked by a Lamp Post Cache or Transformer Cache due to the equipment malfunctioning. I'm sure it must have happened at least once with all the caches stuck to these things all over the place. Does anyone have an example?

 

Nobody is asking for cars not to be driven to caches due to accidents that could occur (even though this has happened). Nobody is asking for people not to walk to caches due to folks falling down hills and breaking legs (even though this has happened). Yet for some reason people keep asking for caches not to be hidden on Lamp Posts and Transformers due to a risk of shock (even though as far as I can tell, this hasn't happened). I wonder why this is?

 

It reminds me of the folks that wanted to ban the use of peanut butter jars as cache containers due to the risk of death they thought was so dangerous.

 

So TrailGators, are you going to answer KBI's question about having taken a child in an automobile to go find a cache? Or are you going to keep dodging the question?

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We must ultimately rely on our own common sense. We are each ultimately free to make our choices based on reality, or gut feeling, or both.

 

The ultimately responsible for the safety of the cache seeker, however, lies with the cache seeker himself – NOT the cache hider.

Therein lays the rub for me and I haven't landed on a final decision for myself which is why I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do with my hides that in some way or fashion are associated with electrical items. As a hider, I now view that drawing cachers into culverts or to ridgetops is different than drawing them to electrical equipment. The risk of sliding down a scree slope or slipping in a culvert and getting spit out the other end are fairly evident and I think it's easy for most people to assess what they are getting into. It's the appearance of the being "benign" when all may not be well that's giving me pause to think.
I agree. Also I don't think kids not knowing to stick their hand inside a loose panel on the side of a lamp post is common sense.
That's definitely true, and therefore hiding a cache INSIDE an access panel on a lamp post, WITH the wiring, is a bad idea. I've never actually come across a cache like this myself, all the LPCs I've found have been under the decorative lift up skirts that cover the bolts.

I've seen several open access panels over the years. I'm not sure how they got opened but I've had my suspicions (newbies). Anyhow, if you owned an LPC and someone reported that the access panel was open with exposed wires inside, what would you do as a cache owner?
What's your point?

I was just curious of you would try to fix the open panel, archive that cache or do nothing and let "common sense" take it's course. I also think it's a realistic scenario for some cacher hiders.

Anyway, it's interesting how at the beginning of this thread folks were saying that the outsides of these items (Lamp posts, Transformers, etc.) were so risky that a cache ON or NEAR them was the problem. Several of us have pointed out the possibility was so low that the fatal risks were much higher with other aspects of the cache hunt. The backpedaling and insults by the anti-LPC crowd were a predictable result, while simultaneously ignoring questions posed by their debaters.

 

Typical.

 

So now I'm being asked what I would do if someone changed one of my safe caches into an unsafe one? I would obviously try to make it safe again, by either replacing the cover plate or moving the cache to a nearby safe spot such as another Lamp Post if that's the sort of hide I had to begin with.

 

It's the same answer I'd give if someone changed any aspect of any of my caches that I didn't want changed. I'd try to change it back if I could, or move the cache if I had to. Again, what's your point? Does how I'd fix a broken cache have anything to do with how safe the skirts of Lamp Posts are, or how safe the outside of a transformer is?

 

There have been multiple cases of cachers being seriously hurt while hunting for caches, there have been many examples of folks getting into car accidents on the way to caches (snoogans wreck while on the way to an Event comes to mind), but I have yet to see even one example of someone getting injured or shocked by a Lamp Post Cache or Transformer Cache due to the equipment malfunctioning. I'm sure it must have happened at least once with all the caches stuck to these things all over the place. Does anyone have an example?

 

Nobody is asking for cars not to be driven to caches due to accidents that could occur (even though this has happened). Nobody is asking for people not to walk to caches due to folks falling down hills and breaking legs (even though this has happened). Yet for some reason people keep asking for caches not to be hidden on Lamp Posts and Transformers due to a risk of shock (even though as far as I can tell, this hasn't happened). I wonder why this is?

 

It reminds me of the folks that wanted to ban the use of peanut butter jars as cache containers due to the risk of death they thought was so dangerous.

 

So TrailGators, are you going to answer KBI's question about having taken a child in an automobile to go find a cache? Or are you going to keep dodging the question?

 

And the dance continues. :laughing::anitongue::laughing:

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We must ultimately rely on our own common sense. We are each ultimately free to make our choices based on reality, or gut feeling, or both.

 

The ultimately responsible for the safety of the cache seeker, however, lies with the cache seeker himself – NOT the cache hider.

Therein lays the rub for me and I haven't landed on a final decision for myself which is why I haven't yet decided what I'm going to do with my hides that in some way or fashion are associated with electrical items. As a hider, I now view that drawing cachers into culverts or to ridgetops is different than drawing them to electrical equipment. The risk of sliding down a scree slope or slipping in a culvert and getting spit out the other end are fairly evident and I think it's easy for most people to assess what they are getting into. It's the appearance of the being "benign" when all may not be well that's giving me pause to think.
I agree. Also I don't think kids not knowing to stick their hand inside a loose panel on the side of a lamp post is common sense.
That's definitely true, and therefore hiding a cache INSIDE an access panel on a lamp post, WITH the wiring, is a bad idea. I've never actually come across a cache like this myself, all the LPCs I've found have been under the decorative lift up skirts that cover the bolts.

I've seen several open access panels over the years. I'm not sure how they got opened but I've had my suspicions (newbies). Anyhow, if you owned an LPC and someone reported that the access panel was open with exposed wires inside, what would you do as a cache owner?
What's your point?

I was just curious of you would try to fix the open panel, archive that cache or do nothing and let "common sense" take it's course. I also think it's a realistic scenario for some cacher hiders.

Anyway, it's interesting how at the beginning of this thread folks were saying that the outsides of these items (Lamp posts, Transformers, etc.) were so risky that a cache ON or NEAR them was the problem. Several of us have pointed out the possibility was so low that the fatal risks were much higher with other aspects of the cache hunt. The backpedaling and insults by the anti-LPC crowd were a predictable result, while simultaneously ignoring questions posed by their debaters.

 

Typical.

 

So now I'm being asked what I would do if someone changed one of my safe caches into an unsafe one? I would obviously try to make it safe again, by either replacing the cover plate or moving the cache to a nearby safe spot such as another Lamp Post if that's the sort of hide I had to begin with.

 

It's the same answer I'd give if someone changed any aspect of any of my caches that I didn't want changed. I'd try to change it back if I could, or move the cache if I had to. Again, what's your point? Does how I'd fix a broken cache have anything to do with how safe the skirts of Lamp Posts are, or how safe the outside of a transformer is?

 

There have been multiple cases of cachers being seriously hurt while hunting for caches, there have been many examples of folks getting into car accidents on the way to caches (snoogans wreck while on the way to an Event comes to mind), but I have yet to see even one example of someone getting injured or shocked by a Lamp Post Cache or Transformer Cache due to the equipment malfunctioning. I'm sure it must have happened at least once with all the caches stuck to these things all over the place. Does anyone have an example?

 

Nobody is asking for cars not to be driven to caches due to accidents that could occur (even though this has happened). Nobody is asking for people not to walk to caches due to folks falling down hills and breaking legs (even though this has happened). Yet for some reason people keep asking for caches not to be hidden on Lamp Posts and Transformers due to a risk of shock (even though as far as I can tell, this hasn't happened). I wonder why this is?

 

It reminds me of the folks that wanted to ban the use of peanut butter jars as cache containers due to the risk of death they thought was so dangerous.

 

So TrailGators, are you going to answer KBI's question about having taken a child in an automobile to go find a cache? Or are you going to keep dodging the question?

 

And the dance continues. :laughing::anitongue::laughing:

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And the dance continues. :laughing::laughing::laughing:
Hmm, you've got me there. Your counterpoints are, as always, very logical, well phrased, and impossible to debate against. I bow to you, oh master debater.

 

Does the fact that I refuse to go round in circles bother you? Debate?? really? A debate is made of points and counterpoints...not re-hashing the same worn out and already dismissed point over and over and over....but you seem to be enjoying yourself! :anitongue:

 

On topic...these caches are a bad idea at best, dangerous at worst. I hope most out there can see this! I'll add that MOST LPCs are not what I'm railing against, but this seems to be the point some want to stick on!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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I hope most out there can see this!
I think that most out there are seeing a lot of things. :laughing:

I noticed. We already saw one cacher state this has opened their eyes to the possible dangers. I consider this good.

I'm sure she'll be exactly as safe driving her new cache to a park as she would driving it to a Lamp Post or Transformer.

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I hope most out there can see this!
I think that most out there are seeing a lot of things. :laughing:

I noticed. We already saw one cacher state this has opened their eyes to the possible dangers. I consider this good.

I'm sure she'll be exactly as safe driving her new cache to a park as she would driving it to a Lamp Post or Transformer.

 

And the dance continues on....great job!! I had faith in you! I think he's a he though!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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I haven't seen anyone insulting anyone.

Well I did see this...

 

That’s good to know. Thanks. I’m glad to learn that electrical boxes are the only things that ever present unseen hazards to ignorant or unlucky cachers like me.

 

But while I am here I am going to take this opportunity to post a link to an electrical safety blog written by a geocacher who is also a Safety Officer for a public power utitlity here in Alberta.I don't think it has been posted on this page (Page 5) of the conversation or debate or whatever you want to call it. This is a valuable link for new geocachers and I am sure there are some readers who don't want to read all 5 pages of this pointless meandering to get to the facts.

 

This blog is interesting reading and if you have hidden a cache that might be connected to the utliity distribution equipment it does apply to you. No electric utility is ever going to place a cache on their distribution equipment.

 

Here is a link to Johnny's blog Johnnygeo's Geocaching Electrical Safety Blog .

 

The hand that you see in the blog is not "sunburned" and if you have a sunburn that resembles that then you might want to consider SPF14400 or something similar.

Edited by wavector
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tl;dr all posts, though i did read more than i feel comfortable admitting.

I just wanted to add my 2cents.

I'm kind of an idiot and a lot of a newbie. In the mood of the moment, I would most definitely shove my hand in a breaker box, or in the whole of a light post because I wouldn't be thinking of getting shocked. I'm thinking of getting the cache.

It's not that I'm AFRAID of getting shocked, or that I think that's what I'm gonna die of. It's that now that I've read Johnnygeo's blog, I think about it. I am more careful about shoving my hand anywhere, for shock or spiders or snakes or otherwise, and I don't think that the extra caution has hurt me or my enjoyment of the game.

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On topic...these caches are a bad idea at best, dangerous at worst. I hope most out there can see this! I'll add that MOST LPCs are not what I'm railing against, but this seems to be the point some want to stick on!

 

I was about to post very similar thoughts. My original comment wasn't about LPC's. I don't think they're great but I also don't have some agenda against them. ( I have been known to grab one for a quick geo-fix on the way home from work.) My issue was with the ones disguised as electical panels, outlets and electrical pad mounted outside units. The real ones are too easily mistaken as caches. THis can be fatal at worst. Aside from fatal, if municipalities keep having their electrical equipment tampered with because people mistake them for geocaches, the city might just outlaw geocaching in their area. It would ruin a fun game for thousands just because someone insists on making a cache look like an electrical pad box.

 

Also, I drove by the one in question in my area and the REAL electrical box near the fake electrical geocache still has the door hanging paritally open and wires poking out. If its still that way tomorrow, I'll probably report it to the ele. company.

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I just got back from finding two caches. The first was on a lamp post, but I ended up touching two lamp posts before finding the nano up inside the skirt of the second one. The second cache was near a lamp post on a fence, but I ended up touching the lamp post first when checking the most obvious spot.

 

I'm happy to say that I didn't get shocked or seriously killed at either cache. Oh, and I rode my motorcycle, and I'm SURE I was at a bigger risk from all the idiots driving around me in mall traffic than from any of the lamp posts!!!

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The hand that you see in the blog is not "sunburned" and if you have a sunburn that resembles that then you might want to consider SPF14400 or something similar.

But that burn wasn't a result of a geocacher touching anything, it was just a picture of an electrical burn without any story to go along with it.

 

Surely there's an actual cacher that has gotten shocked by one of these horrible cache hides, right? Anybody?

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I just got back from finding two caches. The first was on a lamp post, but I ended up touching two lamp posts before finding the nano up inside the skirt of the second one. The second cache was near a lamp post on a fence, but I ended up touching the lamp post first when checking the most obvious spot.

 

I'm happy to say that I didn't get shocked or seriously killed at either cache. Oh, and I rode my motorcycle, and I'm SURE I was at a bigger risk from all the idiots driving around me in mall traffic than from any of the lamp posts!!!

 

Still stuck on the LPCs?? In the words of a few posters here...and your point is?? :laughing: At least you weren't driving, but I note you did throw in a jab at the mode of transportation all the same! Well done!

 

And I'm glad Mredria has found some good advice in all of this trainwreck called a thread too, at least some good is coming from this!

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Surely there's an actual cacher that has gotten shocked by one of these horrible cache hides, right?
You shouldn't talk about LPCs like that.... :laughing:

 

Anyhow, how could a handful of people in a thread possibly know what has happened to everyone? Are you all knowing? I think what Roddy said about posting an NM log is the good idea if a cache is found with exposed wires nearby. :anitongue:

Edited by TrailGators
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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

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Surely there's an actual cacher that has gotten shocked by one of these horrible cache hides, right?
You shouldn't talk about LPCs like that.... :laughing:

 

Anyhow, how could a handful of people in a thread possibly know what has happened to everyone? Are you all knowing? I think what Roddy said about posting an NM log is the good idea if a cache is found with exposed wires nearby. :anitongue:

No, I don't think we know what's happened to everyone, I'm just curious if anyone here has evidence of ONE cacher somewhere getting shocked by some faulty electrical equipment while caching. It just seems like with all the warnings and fuss about how dangerous they are this wouldn't be hard to find. Injuries and accidents as a result of things put down in this thread as not all that dangerous are easily found, but strangely none about the one thing that is such a major problem.

 

Anyone?

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Still stuck on the LPCs??

Yup, I'm still stuck on topic. Perhaps you should take a look at the title of this thread, or perhaps read the original post and make note of what the first dangerous electrical item listed is.

 

Yeah, I went a bit further and actually read the entire OP, wow...imagine my surprise when I saw this topic wasn't only about LPCs????

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.
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Surely there's an actual cacher that has gotten shocked by one of these horrible cache hides, right?
You shouldn't talk about LPCs like that.... :anitongue:

 

Anyhow, how could a handful of people in a thread possibly know what has happened to everyone? Are you all knowing? I think what Roddy said about posting an NM log is the good idea if a cache is found with exposed wires nearby. :laughing:

No, I don't think we know what's happened to everyone, I'm just curious if anyone here has evidence of ONE cacher somewhere getting shocked by some faulty electrical equipment while caching. It just seems like with all the warnings and fuss about how dangerous they are this wouldn't be hard to find. Injuries and accidents as a result of things put down in this thread as not all that dangerous are easily found, but strangely none about the one thing that is such a major problem.

 

Anyone?

I guess if the handful of people in this thread have never heard anything then it must not happen.... :laughing: Edited by TrailGators
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Still stuck on the LPCs??
Yup, I'm still stuck on topic. Perhaps you should take a look at the title of this thread, or perhaps read the original post and make note of what the first dangerous electrical item listed is.
Yeah, I went a bit further and actually read the entire OP, wow...imagine my surprise when I saw this topic wasn't only about LPCs????

So why is it you have a problem with me discussing LPCs, when they're clearly on topic?

 

Oh wait, I know. It's because you don't have any logical replies to any points I've made, except to say, "Electrical caches are bad. Mmm-kay?"

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And the dance continues. :laughing::laughing::laughing:
Hmm, you've got me there. Your counterpoints are, as always, very logical, well phrased, and impossible to debate against. I bow to you, oh master debater.

 

Does the fact that I refuse to go round in circles bother you? Debate?? really? A debate is made of points and counterpoints...not re-hashing the same worn out and already dismissed point over and over and over....but you seem to be enjoying yourself! :anitongue:

 

On topic...these caches are a bad idea at best, dangerous at worst. I hope most out there can see this! I'll add that MOST LPCs are not what I'm railing against, but this seems to be the point some want to stick on!

 

Just so everyone knows!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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Surely there's an actual cacher that has gotten shocked by one of these horrible cache hides, right?
You shouldn't talk about LPCs like that.... :anitongue:

 

Anyhow, how could a handful of people in a thread possibly know what has happened to everyone? Are you all knowing? I think what Roddy said about posting an NM log is the good idea if a cache is found with exposed wires nearby. :laughing:

No, I don't think we know what's happened to everyone, I'm just curious if anyone here has evidence of ONE cacher somewhere getting shocked by some faulty electrical equipment while caching. It just seems like with all the warnings and fuss about how dangerous they are this wouldn't be hard to find. Injuries and accidents as a result of things put down in this thread as not all that dangerous are easily found, but strangely none about the one thing that is such a major problem.

 

Anyone?

I guess if the handful of people in this thread have never heard anything then it must not happen.... :laughing:

 

Funny, all the talk of drunk driving in the world and I've never been in an accident with one. Seems even more odd since it's more dangerous to drive. I've seen mention of lightening strike dangers, yet have not had this happen to me.

 

Just because a small handful of people here in this thread haven't heard of it, doesn't mean it hasn't or won't happen!

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.

Thankyou

Lets see the studs are mounted into the wet cement then the post and transformer boxes are mounted onto the studs if they are not insulated they are grounded and I have yet to see a insulated one anyone else see any????????????????????????????????????

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.

Thankyou

Lets see the studs are mounted into the wet cement then the post and transformer boxes are mounted onto the studs if they are not insulated they are grounded and I have yet to see a insulated one anyone else see any????????????????????????????????????

 

Yet people have been killed by them!

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And the dance continues. :laughing::laughing::laughing:
Hmm, you've got me there. Your counterpoints are, as always, very logical, well phrased, and impossible to debate against. I bow to you, oh master debater.
Does the fact that I refuse to go round in circles bother you? Debate?? really? A debate is made of points and counterpoints...not re-hashing the same worn out and already dismissed point over and over and over....but you seem to be enjoying yourself! :anitongue:

 

On topic...these caches are a bad idea at best, dangerous at worst. I hope most out there can see this! I'll add that MOST LPCs are not what I'm railing against, but this seems to be the point some want to stick on!

Just so everyone knows!

I see. So if YOU don't want to talk about LPCs, then I shouldn't discuss them either. Even if it's the TOPIC of the thread.

 

Got it.

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

ANYONE??????????????????????????????
They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.
Thankyou

Lets see the studs are mounted into the wet cement then the post and transformer boxes are mounted onto the studs if they are not insulated they are grounded and I have yet to see a insulated one anyone else see any????????????????????????????????????

Careful with using logic in this thread. If it goes against what the anti-electrical device cache crowd is saying, they'll start shouting you down and won't listen to your points.

 

They'll ignore the fact that these devices, which are supposedly so deadly to anyone that touches them, are mounted in public places well within reach of people, without any fencing or other safety devices around them. But if a magnetic cache is attached to the side of one, look out! They're like time bombs just waiting to go off when a cacher gets too close.

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And the dance continues. :laughing::laughing::laughing:
Hmm, you've got me there. Your counterpoints are, as always, very logical, well phrased, and impossible to debate against. I bow to you, oh master debater.
Does the fact that I refuse to go round in circles bother you? Debate?? really? A debate is made of points and counterpoints...not re-hashing the same worn out and already dismissed point over and over and over....but you seem to be enjoying yourself! :anitongue:

 

On topic...these caches are a bad idea at best, dangerous at worst. I hope most out there can see this! I'll add that MOST LPCs are not what I'm railing against, but this seems to be the point some want to stick on!

Just so everyone knows!

I see. So if YOU don't want to talk about LPCs, then I shouldn't discuss them either. Even if it's the TOPIC of the thread.

 

Got it.

 

Is that what I wrote and then quoted for you?? I now understand the problem, you read more into hat's said than what is said. Try not to put words in my mouth! I'm telling you this because you keep trying to make my posts about something I'm not discussing...but I thought you'd have understood that by the quote! Sure are snippy, you feeling OK?

 

Back to your (rather one sided and not worth arguing) LPC debate, I'm done unless you can come up with something worth debating!

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.

Thankyou

Lets see the studs are mounted into the wet cement then the post and transformer boxes are mounted onto the studs if they are not insulated they are grounded and I have yet to see a insulated one anyone else see any????????????????????????????????????

 

Yet people have been killed by them!

 

 

So where does the current go if the light post and or the transformer case is grounded?????????????????

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I'm telling you this because you keep trying to make my posts about something I'm not discussing...but I thought you'd have understood that by the quote!

Now I see your problem. Um... you're not the only one in this thread, so my posts aren't always directed at you. Specifically, in post number 217 I wasn't directing anything at all towards you, but you seemed to have a real problem with the mention of LPCs.

 

I, however, haven't tried to make YOUR posts about anything.

 

Just realize that LPCs are ON topic, and I'm definitely allowed to discuss them here. Thank you.

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.

Thankyou

Lets see the studs are mounted into the wet cement then the post and transformer boxes are mounted onto the studs if they are not insulated they are grounded and I have yet to see a insulated one anyone else see any????????????????????????????????????

 

Yet people have been killed by them!

 

 

So where does the current go if the light post and or the transformer case is grounded?????????????????

 

My friend, I am not an expert or even a novice with this stuff, I only know what I have read. As I said and have seen linked in this thread, people have been killed by these!! I'm guessing a short in the system isn't good, but that's just a guess!!

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.

Thankyou

Lets see the studs are mounted into the wet cement then the post and transformer boxes are mounted onto the studs if they are not insulated they are grounded and I have yet to see a insulated one anyone else see any????????????????????????????????????

 

Yet people have been killed by them!

 

 

So where does the current go if the light post and or the transformer case is grounded?????????????????

 

My friend, I am not an expert or even a novice with this stuff, I only know what I have read. As I said and have seen linked in this thread, people have been killed by these!! I'm guessing a short in the system isn't good, but that's just a guess!!

 

 

If the current goes to ground it's a short, if there is a short it's going to blow a fuse or pop a breaker if that happens no current, no current no shock.

Now if your stupid enough to try and break open a transformer well in that case you get what you deserve, maybe something like the toasted squirrels someone mentioned a few pages ago.

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I've watched this thread for 4 pages now and I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the experts.

First one is about those green transformer boxes, how are they mounted to the cement slabs they sit on?

#2 is how are the light poles mounted to the cement tubes they sit on?

 

ANYONE??????????????????????????????

They are grounded but you better email Johnnygeo. He is the expert.

Thankyou

Lets see the studs are mounted into the wet cement then the post and transformer boxes are mounted onto the studs if they are not insulated they are grounded and I have yet to see a insulated one anyone else see any????????????????????????????????????

 

Yet people have been killed by them!

 

 

So where does the current go if the light post and or the transformer case is grounded?????????????????

 

My friend, I am not an expert or even a novice with this stuff, I only know what I have read. As I said and have seen linked in this thread, people have been killed by these!! I'm guessing a short in the system isn't good, but that's just a guess!!

 

 

If the current goes to ground it's a short, if there is a short it's going to blow a fuse or pop a breaker if that happens no current, no current no shock.

Now if your stupid enough to try and break open a transformer well in that case you get what you deserve, maybe something like the toasted squirrels someone mentioned a few pages ago.

 

Again, as linked, this has apparently happened, some have died. I also read where there were something like 7000 hot spots identified in a single year, but it's in the links posted further back. Other than that, you could look up the info you're asking about??

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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So where does the current go if the light post and or the transformer case is grounded?????????????????

 

In rural power distribution systems earth returns are often used. These systems often offer grounding at many different points and they are considered safe. In urban power distribution systems the returns are part of the utility infrastructure.

Grounds are often shielded but conductors are usually bare steel, sometimes there are thin weather protection coatings on conductors but they do not offer protection.

If the voltages used in the distribution system create a new path to ground then the danger increases. In cases where the utility ground has been compromised and the voltage is actually going to ground in the vicinity of the transformer or pole there is a danger to everyone who gets close. If you are in a vehicle that contacts the voltages in use in the distribution grid you are usually safe, just stay in the vehicle. As soon as you place a foot on the ground you could be dead, your body will create a new path to ground and the potential between the vehicle and the ground will equalize.

 

At that point in time everyone near the vehicle (30 feet or so) will be in danger because of "step potential". The voltage will decrease from the point where your dead body is providing the route to ground and it will decrease in a constant fashion. Simply placing one foot in front of the other creates a possibility that potentials will equalize across zones of differing potential using your body as the bond.

If you find yourself in a situation where the ground is energized then the best solution is to stay there until you are rescued. I know workers who have been trapped for many hours until rescued. If you must move then shuffle and don't move your feet very far when you are shuffling. This will decrease the chance that dangerous "step potential" will arise and potentials will equalize using you as the conductor.

 

If you are in an energized vehicle the only way to exit is to jump, land with both feet together and don't touch the vehicle to restore your balance.

The only safe path to ground is the utility return. The widespread use of plastic pipe in the water distribution system has made the traditional practice of grounding to the copper cold water pipe a risky practice at best, all potentials in a building should be equal and this is effected by ensuring that each potential is boinded to a common ground, use the utility return.

 

My advice is simple. Don't hide caches on the utility distribution infrastructure. ConEd discovered over 7,000 electrified objects on city streets in one sweep, 6900 were found the previous year. These are trifling numbers compared to the number of objects that needed to be tested. Electricity is distributed to the places that need it, this means that transformers are everywhere and there is no way that the utility could fence them or block them.

 

No one has ever gotten permission from an electric utility to attach any cache or any stage of a cache to the distribution equipment, it wouldn't happen and it won't happen. All utility workers are equipped with special tools that allow them to test distribution equipment before they touch it, I use such a tool at work and I would never imagine that the vanishingly small chance of my death is an excuse to bypass this important step.

 

I am required to test wooden poles and any other piece of distribution equipment that I wil be working around and I cannot proceed if a potential difference exists. Cases, guy wires, poles and masts are all tested with equipment that is not found in most toolboxes.

 

So if your cache or a stage of your cache is hidden on the equipment used by your local power company to distribute power then it is hidden without permission in a place that it would not be allowed by any competent authority, despite what the boys tell you on this thread.

 

I have no legal competence but a case could be made that any cache is an invitation.

It is your cache, it does not belong to Groundspeak.

When you attach a cache or the stage of a cache to any utility distribution equipment you are breaking the guidelines of this listing service, you do not have permission to place caches on the utility distribution infrastrucutre.

 

It is far simpler to just avoid such placements. If you have a cache, or a stage of a cache that is already attached to the utility distribution equipment then you might want to consider removing that placement. There really isn't much point in talking about this, these are simple issues that have nothing to do with driving, trees that fall unexpectedly or sunlight. While I enjoy the opportunity to garner a few smiles at their expense, and that is actually far easier than they realize, we really are talking different languages.

 

I am not going to link JohnnyGeo's blog until we have six pages of the "lamp posts are great" posts. I haven't mentioned a lamp post once and I am sure that most people reading are well aware of that fact.

 

Don't hide caches or stages of a cache on utlity infrastructure.

 

I just read Roddy's post aboout breakers and it is important to note that the devices used by the electric utility do not open and stay open like a regular breaker. If devices do short they try and close again to restore the circuit and the power, the grid is critical and it is standard practice to reset automatically after any type of failure. That is what happens when you see a short power failure that last seconds, the grid restores itself without human intervention.

Edited by wavector
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I hope most out there can see this!

I think that most out there are seeing a lot of things. :laughing:

Hmm, you've got him there. Your counterpoints are, as always, very logical, well phrased, and impossible to debate against. I bow to you, oh master debater.

 

The point that while the statistics show that it is very unlikely that you will be killed by electrocution, it is still possible to be electrocuted while hunting a cache hidden on electrical equipment. If you don't hunt a cache on electrical equipment, your odds of being electrocuted while doing so are ZERO.

 

Going from odds being zero to ANYTHING is an INFINITE increase. Why add the unnecessary risk?

 

Let's not forget that utility companies would never allow a cache to be placed on their equipment. LPCs are a whole other debate, and if anyone wants to discuss permission about that, search the forums for "LPC."

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So where does the current go if the light post and or the transformer case is grounded?????????????????

 

In rural power distribution systems earth returns are often used. These systems often offer grounding at many different points and they are considered safe. In urban power distribution systems the returns are part of the utility infrastructure.

Grounds are often shielded but conductors are usually bare steel, sometimes there are thin weather protection coatings on conductors but they do not offer protection.

If the voltages used in the distribution system create a new path to ground then the danger increases. In cases where the utility ground has been compromised and the voltage is actually going to ground in the vicinity of the transformer or pole there is a danger to everyone who gets close. If you are in a vehicle that contacts the voltages in use in the distribution grid you are usually safe, just stay in the vehicle. As soon as you place a foot on the ground you could be dead, your body will create a new path to ground and the potential between the vehicle and the ground will equalize.

 

At that point in time everyone near the vehicle (30 feet or so) will be in danger because of "step potential". The voltage will decrease from the point where your dead body is providing the route to ground and it will decrease in a constant fashion. Simply placing one foot in front of the other creates a possibility that potentials will equalize across zones of differing potential using your body as the bond.

If you find yourself in a situation where the ground is energized then the best solution is to stay there until you are rescued. I know workers who have been trapped for many hours until rescued. If you must move then shuffle and don't move your feet very far when you are shuffling. This will decrease the chance that dangerous "step potential" will arise and potentials will equalize using you as the conductor.

 

If you are in an energized vehicle the only way to exit is to jump, land with both feet together and don't touch the vehicle to restore your balance.

The only safe path to ground is the utility return. The widespread use of plastic pipe in the water distribution system has made the traditional practice of grounding to the copper cold water pipe a risky practice at best, all potentials in a building should be equal and this is effected by ensuring that each potential is boinded to a common ground, use the utility return.

 

My advice is simple. Don't hide caches on the utility distribution infrastructure. ConEd discovered over 7,000 electrified objects on city streets in one sweep, 6900 were found the previous year. These are trifling numbers compared to the number of objects that needed to be tested. Electricity is distributed to the places that need it, this means that transformers are everywhere and there is no way that the utility could fence them or block them.

 

No one has ever gotten permission from an electric utility to attach any cache or any stage of a cache to the distribution equipment, it wouldn't happen and it won't happen. All utility workers are equipped with special tools that allow them to test distribution equipment before they touch it, I use such a tool at work and I would never imagine that the vanishingly small chance of my death is an excuse to bypass this important step.

 

I am required to test wooden poles and any other piece of distribution equipment that I wil be working around and I cannot proceed if a potential difference exists. Cases, guy wires, poles and masts are all tested with equipment that is not found in most toolboxes.

 

So if your cache or a stage of your cache is hidden on the equipment used by your local power company to distribute power then it is hidden without permission in a place that it would not be allowed by any competent authority, despite what the boys tell you on this thread.

 

I have no legal competence but a case could be made that any cache is an invitation.

It is your cache, it does not belong to Groundspeak.

When you attach a cache or the stage of a cache to any utility distribution equipment you are breaking the guidelines of this listing service, you do not have permission to place caches on the utility distribution infrastrucutre.

 

It is far simpler to just avoid such placements. If you have a cache, or a stage of a cache that is already attached to the utility distribution equipment then you might want to consider removing that placement. There really isn't much point in talking about this, these are simple issues that have nothing to do with driving, trees that fall unexpectedly or sunlight. While I enjoy the opportunity to garner a few smiles at their expense, and that is actually far easier than they realize, we really are talking different languages.

 

I am not going to link JohnnyGeo's blog until we have six pages of the "lamp posts are great" posts. I haven't mentioned a lamp post once and I am sure that most people reading are well aware of that fact.

 

Don't hide caches or stages of a cache on utlity infrastructure.

 

I just read Roddy's post aboout breakers and it is important to note that the devices used by the electric utility do not open and stay open like a regular breaker. If devices do short they try and close again to restore the circuit and the power, the grid is critical and it is standard practice to reset automatically after any type of failure. That is what happens when you see a short power failure that last seconds, the grid restores itself without human intervention.

 

Ok let me state this a little different,1 if by chance a hot lead is somehow disconnected and falls onto the metal transformer case, 2 or falls onto the metal light pole whats going to happen????????????????????????

Just a simple answer please

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Ok let me state this a little different,1 if by chance a hot lead is somehow disconnected and falls onto the metal transformer case, 2 or falls onto the metal light pole whats going to happen????????????????????????

Just a simple answer please

The electricity will look for the bet way to get to the ground. If given the choice of running through a cement pad/post or a human being, it's going to chose the human.

 

Every time.

 

In other words, if you touch an object that has a failure as you describe,

 

ZAP!

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Just a simple answer please

 

When I am speaking to you guys that is a given. :laughing:

 

I actually don't care and you would know that if you were reading my posts. I use a specialized tool at work. It tells me when an unsafe potential difference exists. If such a difference in potential exists I cannot proceed with my job.

I am disinclined to actually try and rewire utility infrastructure so that you can benefit from the simple instruction that might provide.

My suggestion is that you open a transformer and try a few rewiring experiments yourself and you will get the conclusive answers you seem to desire, I am certain of that.

 

So again, simply and with no long words. The electric utility will never give permission for any cache or stage of a cache hidden on the utility distribution equipment. What will happen when they discover your cache hidden on their transformer?

 

I expect a simple answer.

 

I apologize for sounding harsh I didn't intend to sound that way to you.

This is a simple concept, the OP linked an article that pointed out that ConEd had found over 7000 electrified objects on city streets. They did not give the exact cause of the failures that electrified these objects. They found 6000 electrified objects on city streets the previous year, again they did not quantify the failures that caused the objects to become electrified. When stray voltage incidents occur they occur for a variety of reasons. Mice, water wear and tear, human error, weather, wind the list is actually quite long. In each and every case ConEd was testing their infrastructure. So your question may be relevant to utility workers seeking the exact cause of each failure, for geocachers it is a lot simpler. Utility infrastructure should be treated with the respect it deserves. Geocachers should never place caches on this infrastructure, they should never place stages of a cache on this infrastructure, they should recognize that such caches require permission and the utility is never going to give them the permission they would require.

Edited by wavector
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Just a simple answer please

 

When I am speaking to you guys that is a given. :laughing:

 

I actually don't care and you would know that if you were reading my posts. I use a specialized tool at work. It tells me when an unsafe potential difference exists. If such a difference in potential exists I cannot proceed with my job.

I am disinclined to actually try and rewire utility infrastructure so that you can benefit from the simple instruction that might provide.

My suggestion is that you open a transformer and try a few rewiring experiments yourself and you will get the conclusive answers you seem to desire, I am certain of that.

 

So again, simply and with no long words. The electric utility will never give permission for any cache or stage of a cache hidden on the utility distribution equipment. What will happen when they discover your cache hidden on their transformer?

 

I expect a simple answer.

Ah answers my question with a question, I see this is going nowhere fast

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Going from odds being zero to ANYTHING is an INFINITE increase. Why add the unnecessary risk?

I agree that if you don't look for a cache on a transformer then you can't get hurt from one. Zero risk is smaller than whatever the risk actually is. We both agree on that. I think everyone in the thread agrees on that.

 

I've never tried to suggest that the risk of shock or electrocution is zero when hunting for a cache placed on electrical equipment. Not once.

 

To follow your quoted logic above, it would seem like you're advocating not searching for any caches that have a health risk higher than zero. Is that true, or have I misunderstood something?

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Ok let me state this a little different,1 if by chance a hot lead is somehow disconnected and falls onto the metal transformer case, 2 or falls onto the metal light pole whats going to happen????????????????????????

Just a simple answer please

The electricity will look for the bet way to get to the ground. If given the choice of running through a cement pad/post or a human being, it's going to chose the human.

 

Every time.

 

In other words, if you touch an object that has a failure as you describe,

 

ZAP!

 

Well I guess it's is always possible of something shorting just as it's touched by a cacher

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Just a simple answer please

 

When I am speaking to you guys that is a given. :laughing:

 

I actually don't care and you would know that if you were reading my posts. I use a specialized tool at work. It tells me when an unsafe potential difference exists. If such a difference in potential exists I cannot proceed with my job.

I am disinclined to actually try and rewire utility infrastructure so that you can benefit from the simple instruction that might provide.

My suggestion is that you open a transformer and try a few rewiring experiments yourself and you will get the conclusive answers you seem to desire, I am certain of that.

 

So again, simply and with no long words. The electric utility will never give permission for any cache or stage of a cache hidden on the utility distribution equipment. What will happen when they discover your cache hidden on their transformer?

 

I expect a simple answer.

Ah answers my question with a question, I see this is going nowhere fast

I can answer your specific question Vagabond. In the case where an internal wire comes loose and touches the grounded case the current will go to ground and blow a breaker unless the ground connection has been compromised for some reason (corrosion, etc.)
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Ok let me state this a little different,1 if by chance a hot lead is somehow disconnected and falls onto the metal transformer case, 2 or falls onto the metal light pole whats going to happen????????????????????????

Just a simple answer please

 

It is important to note that the devices used by the electric utility do not open and stay open like a regular breaker. If devices do short they try and close again to restore the circuit and the power, the grid is critical and it is standard practice to reset automatically after any type of failure. That is what happens when you see a short power failure that last seconds, the grid restores itself without human intervention.

 

If your point was that the breaker goes off and then everything is good I guess you have never worked with utilty infrastructure. Was that your point, that you are familiar with the circuit breakers downstairs in your house and that makes it OK to hide caches on utility infrastructure?

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Going from odds being zero to ANYTHING is an INFINITE increase. Why add the unnecessary risk?

I agree that if you don't look for a cache on a transformer then you can't get hurt from one. Zero risk is smaller than whatever the risk actually is. We both agree on that. I think everyone in the thread agrees on that.

 

I've never tried to suggest that the risk of shock or electrocution is zero when hunting for a cache placed on electrical equipment. Not once.

 

To follow your quoted logic above, it would seem like you're advocating not searching for any caches that have a health risk higher than zero. Is that true, or have I misunderstood something?

Risk has two components: probability of occurrence and severity. If the severity is low then most people won't worry about it. If the severity is high then most people will avoid it even if the probability is low. However, everyone is different and there is no right or wrong. It's up to the individual to decide what is best for him or her. Edited by TrailGators
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