Why can't cache owners clean up their mess?

[+KJcachers]

Lately I have seen a couple cachers in my area that really like to saturate areas with caches but then when there is any trouble with them they just archive them. I know of at least 3 that were in need of maintenance to the container where the owner just archived them instead. So now there is small geo-trash left behind. I will probably end up collecting these when I am out in the area again but really it should be on the cache owner to maintain their own caches. One cacher has around 60 caches placed in the last year with about 1/3 of them archived already.

 

Thanks for letting me vent....

[+Rockin Roddy]

Lately I have seen a couple cachers in my area that really like to saturate areas with caches but then when there is any trouble with them they just archive them. I know of at least 3 that were in need of maintenance to the container where the owner just archived them instead. So now there is small geo-trash left behind. I will probably end up collecting these when I am out in the area again but really it should be on the cache owner to maintain their own caches. One cacher has around 60 caches placed in the last year with about 1/3 of them archived already.

 

Thanks for letting me vent....

 

Maybe emailing the owner and telling them might help. If not, then a note to the reviewer might help. IMHO, if the owner refuses after being asked by the reviewer, maybe not allowing new caches from them until they comply woud help as well??

 

Until then, THANKS for being responsible and helping keep geotrash from causing problems for our fun!

[+StarBrand]

I haven't seen that problem in my immediate area but friends in other areas have shared with me similar stories. Cachers that place a cache in any old ditch or clump of trees and then just archive them when any problems are reported. Sounds like they don't even bother to go out and check on them. Best we can do is lead by example...

[+KJcachers]

yeah, I am not going to start any wars with them. I will just do the "right" thing and pick "trash"up when I am able.

 

On a side note...I wonder how many football stadiums we could fill with active and archived cache containers we have placed worldwide?

Edited December 15, 2008 by KJcachers

[+Milbank]

I will just do the "right" thing and pick "trash"up when I am able.

 

Yeah, thanks for doing the right thing.

We need more people like you around.

[+Renegade Knight]

Lately I have seen a couple cachers in my area that really like to saturate areas with caches but then when there is any trouble with them they just archive them. I know of at least 3 that were in need of maintenance to the container where the owner just archived them instead. So now there is small geo-trash left behind. I will probably end up collecting these when I am out in the area again but really it should be on the cache owner to maintain their own caches. One cacher has around 60 caches placed in the last year with about 1/3 of them archived already.

 

Thanks for letting me vent....

 

It is up to the owner to maitnain their cache and pull them when they are archived on all listing sites.

 

Did the owner say they were leaving the caches in the wild, or was this an assumption?

When you go to clean them up will you be verifing that the owner has no intention of doing it before you go, or did you want risk wasting hte owners time by taking their personal property?

Did you verify they are not listed on another site?

[+Harry Dolphin]

Lessee... It was archived because the log was a sodden mass, and the owner never responded to the reviewer. That was early 2007. The cache owner has been missing since early 2007. (How does someoe inactivate an account?!?) There have been no new signatures since it was archived. Hey! Go for it!

Yeah. I can think of a local cacher with 34 hides. 26 were archived due lack of maintenance. Cache onwer NEVER performed maintenance. Sort of sad, a few of them were actually not bad caches!

Okay. If it is listed on another listing service, and no one has signed the sodden mass in a year, I doubt that anyone will notice that it's been CITOed...

Then there are the Seven-Day Wonders. Joined in June 2006. Hid three caches (take out food containers). Has not been heard of since. Of course, with the take out food containers, there isn't much left to CITO.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

Did you verify they are not listed on another site?

 

That was my first thought.

[+KJcachers]

I won't be pulling any containers for awhile. They are on my watchlist for the next time I am caching in the area. I would always give the owner a chance to recover whats left of the containers but I don't think thats going to happen. Who want to drive way out of their way to retrieve an old busted cigar tube, anyway?I have check a few old ones that they archived and people have actually found them weeks/months after archiving and took the find with notes about the condition of the container. (finding archived caches...do the smilies count? I know, another topic we could pick apart.)

Edited December 16, 2008 by KJcachers

[+DanOCan]

I have cleaned up some archived caches for owners. Each time I emailed them and offered to make arrangements to return the remains to them and not once has one of the owners taken me up on the offer.

 

Placing a new cache is fun but all too often maintaining them is not and they get neglected.

 

As for being listed on another site, that's not an issue here. The few caches cross-listed on those other sites have gone years without a log.

[+wimseyguy]

Why do fishermen leave their bait tubs lying around the shoreline?

Why do hunters leave spent shells out there?

Why do golfers leave golf balls all over? (and why are so many found near caches)

Why are there always a pile of dead tennis balls outside the fence of a court?

Why do ______(insert recreational participants here) leave their trash out there?

 

Why would you expect geocachers to be any different?

I'm not defending them, anyone who leaves garbage outside is trashy.

[+J-Way]

Several local numbers hiders routinely archive caches at the first sign of trouble, but I believe they do go pick the containers back up. Their logic is that this tactic opens the spot up for someone else to use.

[+khaytsus]

I have seen this at least three times personally... Two times when I first started caching and I had a very static list of caches I was working from I found two caches which I discovered upon logging them had been archived for months. Both in the same area, probably same owner.

 

And I apparently placed a cache where a cache used to be, because several folks reported that they found the cache but it was an M&M tube, not an ammo can. At first I was pissed off thinking someone had switched it out, but when I went to check on it the ammo can was still out there, and sure enough about 10 feet away there was a little M&M tube in a tree. Still don't know what the cache name was, but the last log was about 18 months prior.

[+GrateBear]

Yeah. I can think of a local cacher with 34 hides. 26 were archived due lack of maintenance. Cache onwer NEVER performed maintenance.

 

Along the same lines, what I don't understand are those caches that have notes written that they need maintenance, are missing, log is soaked, etc. and when you check on the owner, see that they have been on-line many times since the messages went out. So, you know they got an e-mail about the problem, so why can't they respond? Never mind actually doing something.

When I see this, a wait a month or so and post that the cache s/b archived. They've had plenty of notice, so why not open the spot up to someone else?

[+GrateBear]

Double post.

Edited December 17, 2008 by GrateBear

[+paleolith]

On a side note...I wonder how many football stadiums we could fill with active and archived cache containers we have placed worldwide?

Well, assume half a million ammo cans have been placed. Probably an overestimate. Micros and even decons don't count for much beside ammo cans, and very few caches are larger.

 

A 30-cal ammo can is about 10.5"x4"x7". That comes out to six cans to make a cubic foot. So those half-million ammo cans take up about 85,000 cubic feet.

 

Also, instead of whole stadiums, let's just count a regulation football field. What is that, 120 yards by 50 yards? Been a mighty long time since I cared. That's 360'x150', or about 54,000 square feet.

 

So all those caches would fill a football field less than two feet deep.

 

Personally I'm not worried about what caching is doing to our landfills. The very cynical might point out that some caching experiences lead one to believe that caching reduces the quantities entering landfills.

 

Edward

[+Isonzo Karst]

finding archived caches...do the smilies count?

 

Yes

[+sbell111]

Yeah. I can think of a local cacher with 34 hides. 26 were archived due lack of maintenance. Cache onwer NEVER performed maintenance.

 

Along the same lines, what I don't understand are those caches that have notes written that they need maintenance, are missing, log is soaked, etc. and when you check on the owner, see that they have been on-line many times since the messages went out. So, you know they got an e-mail about the problem, so why can't they respond? Never mind actually doing something.

When I see this, a wait a month or so and post that the cache s/b archived. They've had plenty of notice, so why not open the spot up to someone else?

Respond? Is it a maintenance requirement to enter a reply note after every log on your cache? I don't think so.

[+Too Tall John]

Yeah. I can think of a local cacher with 34 hides. 26 were archived due lack of maintenance. Cache onwer NEVER performed maintenance.

Along the same lines, what I don't understand are those caches that have notes written that they need maintenance, are missing, log is soaked, etc. and when you check on the owner, see that they have been on-line many times since the messages went out. So, you know they got an e-mail about the problem, so why can't they respond? Never mind actually doing something.

When I see this, a wait a month or so and post that the cache s/b archived. They've had plenty of notice, so why not open the spot up to someone else?

Respond? Is it a maintenance requirement to enter a reply note after every log on your cache? I don't think so.

While I agree that there is no requirement to post a log after every log, if that log was a NM and you went out and fixed it, you probably ought to post a maintenance log to clear the NM flag.

 

Back to where I agree with sbell111, I wouldn't post an SBA on a cache just because the CO didn't post a log. Some people don't seem to understand the usage of the maint. log and the fact that it clears a flag. Unless I know (and by know, I mean having visited the cache over time and seen the disrepair) the cache isn't being maintained over a long period of time, no SBA will be coming from my direction.

 

For the record, the only SBA I've logged was at the suggestion of my local reviewer. The CO was (and is) a banned member and the cache was in bad shape.

[janx]

barring the M&M can being 10 feet from a new cache, under what normal scenario are you hunting down archived caches.

 

Let's say BadCache Bob plants a micro in the woods. It's crap. He gets complaints, he archives it, opening up the space. GoodCache Gus plants an ammo can in the area. Odds are good, they are NOT going to be in the same area, but within the .1 mile limit.

 

At what point are any of you hunting down Bob's cache? It's not likely to show up in a query, you'll probably filter archived caches out.

 

While it's a darn shame Bob's sloppy and doesn't clean up his trash, unless you're a nosy busybody, you shouldn't be stumbling over it.

 

Who the heck hunts down archived caches, just to verify they've been removed? While on one end, it's nice that somebody tries to clean up after the game, it does border on the "who the heck made you the cache cops?!"

[Clan Riffster]

At what point are any of you hunting down Bob's cache?

 

While it's a darn shame Bob's sloppy and doesn't clean up his trash, unless you're a nosy busybody, you shouldn't be stumbling over it.

 

One of the off-shoot games I used to play, back when we had the option to view archived caches on our maps, was to go hunting for the ones that got nuked. It was a fun addition to the game for us. Note: I disagree with the notion that you have to be a nosy busybody to appreciate not having rubbish strewn about the woods.

Edited December 18, 2008 by Clan Riffster

[+KJcachers]

If you know of a cache that is right off a trail you will be using again to get to other caches and that cache has been archived, why not take a few minutes and check it out? Not a busy body just trying to do the right thing. When I place a needs maintenance on a cache because the container is literally falling apart and the the owner posts up an archive the next day with "thanks for playing" then I really don't think they are going to be making an attempt at trash recovery. Maybe I am wrong and I hope I am but I just don't think so.

[+BlueDeuce]

While it's a darn shame Bob's sloppy and doesn't clean up his trash, unless you're a nosy busybody, you shouldn't be stumbling over it.

 

Who the heck hunts down archived caches, just to verify they've been removed? While on one end, it's nice that somebody tries to clean up after the game, it does border on the "who the heck made you the cache cops?!"

 

Hi! I'm a cache cop. Just so you know the situation is usually quite apparent that the cache was abandoned, and why it was archived. There's rarely any 'just to verify' necessary.

 

A walk in the woods, pick up some trash. Just another day out caching.

 

Edit: Oh in case you are wondering, I can think of two nearby caches that are still functional so by definition I would have to say that those caches have been, ahem, ignored by their owners for several years. Abandoned would definitely include other factors.

Edited December 19, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[Clan Riffster]

Did you verify they are not listed on another site?

This cache was published on 06-21-05. The container was a ziplock covered in camo duct tape.

On 08-20-05 it got its first note regarding holes in the baggie and damp contents.

I found it on 10-17-06, discovering a sodden mess full of carpenter ants.

I contributed to the problem by not posting a NM log then, but I did post a note describing its condition.

On 11-23-07 it got its first NM.

On 12-16-07 it got its second NM.

On 02-24-08 it got its third NM.

On 03-07-08 it got its fourth NM.

On 05-25-08 it got its fifth NM.

I found it again on 11-22-08, and it was still a disaster. The same ziplock was still being used.

In all that time, the owner took no corrective action.

I posted my very first SBA.

On my next trip out there, I'll pick up the trash, without considering for a second whether its listed on another site.

[+Harry Dolphin]

And then there are the Travel Bug rescue missions. Three multi caches archived because the first stage was missing and not replaced. About a year after the archival I went hunting to rescue the bugs. For two, the final was still in place, with no signatures since the archival. Trash removed. Travel bugs freed! On the third, the cache had been muggled, and parts were strewn around the woods. The TBs were missing. Trash removed.

[+Renegade Knight]

Did you verify they are not listed on another site?

This cache was published on 06-21-05. The container was a ziplock covered in camo duct tape.

On 08-20-05 it got its first note regarding holes in the baggie and damp contents.

I found it on 10-17-06, discovering a sodden mess full of carpenter ants.

I contributed to the problem by not posting a NM log then, but I did post a note describing its condition.

On 11-23-07 it got its first NM.

On 12-16-07 it got its second NM.

On 02-24-08 it got its third NM.

On 03-07-08 it got its fourth NM.

On 05-25-08 it got its fifth NM.

I found it again on 11-22-08, and it was still a disaster. The same ziplock was still being used.

In all that time, the owner took no corrective action.

I posted my very first SBA.

On my next trip out there, I'll pick up the trash, without considering for a second whether its listed on another site.

 

The cache is there. It can be found. This sounds more like a grudge than an SBA. Yes the owner should stick in carpenter ant proof paper. But since you can find the cache, that's NM not SBA.

 

But you bring up a good point of discussion. For what cache condition should a cache be archived? I've seen homes that folks live in that are worse than that cache.

[+Castle Mischief]

I'll add to the list of things that I wish cache owners wouldn't ignore- trackable items that have been reported over and over again as not in the cache, but the owner won't remove them from the cache listing. This seems like such a simple thing to do- doesn't even require you to leave your desk.

[+BlueDeuce]

But you bring up a good point of discussion. For what cache condition should a cache be archived? I've seen homes that folks live in that are worse than that cache.

 

You can't deem a cache as needing to be archived without considering other factors, such as length of time.

Edited December 19, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[Clan Riffster]

But since you can find the cache, that's NM not SBA.

Groundspeak seems to disagree. Their guidelines indicate that performing maintenance is a crucial part of cache ownership:

 

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing.

 

I think Groundspeak was pretty generous allowing the time frame of "a few weeks", and I've even known of cases where they've allowed cache issues to exceed a few weeks, after receiving input from the owner. In this case, however, the owner was clearly disregarding their maintenance duties. They received notification about a problem more than 3 years ago, and opted to do nothing. Two years ago I sent them a note that the cache could not be closed, and it had become a sodden, insect filled trash pile, and the owners still opted to do nothing. A year ago, the NMs starting piling up, and the owner still opted to do nothing.

 

While I don't consider myself a perfect environmentalist, I do have a deep love for the wilderness and I hate to see it damaged by detritus slung around. This particular piece of trash is visible from the roadway as you drive through the Ocala National Forest. My love for this game includes concerns for how the general public perceives us. Any muggle driving by could see that baggie, and if they investigated, pouring out the water logged insects, they would learn a harsh and wildly inaccurate lesson regarding what a "geocache" was. This is not a lesson I would like to teach.

 

If you would leave such rubbish beside the roadway in your caching area, for fear of being accused of "holding a grudge", then obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

[Clan Riffster]

trackable items that have been reported over and over again as not in the cache, but the owner won't remove them from the cache listing.

Good point. But is this something a cache owner can do? I thought the only person that could list a TB as missing was the TB/coin owner?

[+sbell111]

trackable items that have been reported over and over again as not in the cache, but the owner won't remove them from the cache listing.

Good point. But is this something a cache owner can do? I thought the only person that could list a TB as missing was the TB/coin owner?

A cache owner can also send a TB/coin from their cache listing to the dead trackable box. That being said, I am not troubled if a cache owner does not do this.

Edited December 19, 2008 by sbell111

[+Castle Mischief]

trackable items that have been reported over and over again as not in the cache, but the owner won't remove them from the cache listing.

Good point. But is this something a cache owner can do? I thought the only person that could list a TB as missing was the TB/coin owner?

A cache owner can also send a TB/coin from their cache listing to the dead trackable box. That being said, I am not troubled if a cache owner does not do this.

 

I don't rip my hair out or anything, but considering the minimal amount of effort required to remove a TB or coin from your cache listing, I really wish more owners would do this.

[+BlueDeuce]

trackable items that have been reported over and over again as not in the cache, but the owner won't remove them from the cache listing.

Good point. But is this something a cache owner can do? I thought the only person that could list a TB as missing was the TB/coin owner?

A cache owner can also send a TB/coin from their cache listing to the dead trackable box. That being said, I am not troubled if a cache owner does not do this.

 

I don't rip my hair out or anything, but considering the minimal amount of effort required to remove a TB or coin from your cache listing, I really wish more owners would do this.

 

A bug can be marked as missing by the Bug owner, cache owner (when the bug is in their cache), and a Groundspeak employee/volunteer.

 

Some of the Groundspeak folks move bugs when they have the time to research and determine that a bug needs to be moved. Otherwise they take requests from non-bug/cache owners.

[+Harry Dolphin]

But since you can find the cache, that's NM not SBA.

Groundspeak seems to disagree. Their guidelines indicate that performing maintenance is a crucial part of cache ownership:

 

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing.

 

I think Groundspeak was pretty generous allowing the time frame of "a few weeks", and I've even known of cases where they've allowed cache issues to exceed a few weeks, after receiving input from the owner. In this case, however, the owner was clearly disregarding their maintenance duties. They received notification about a problem more than 3 years ago, and opted to do nothing. Two years ago I sent them a note that the cache could not be closed, and it had become a sodden, insect filled trash pile, and the owners still opted to do nothing. A year ago, the NMs starting piling up, and the owner still opted to do nothing.

 

Hmm... The 'couple of weeks' is after the cache is 'temporarily unavailable'. That's what the guidelines are. Though a 'couple of weeks' can be a very tough schedule. I've got some very nice 'mile hike in' caches. Glad I don't have to check them every two weeks. Of course, they don't get a lot of visits, and almost never get NMs. Yes. Soggy logs get quick maintenance visits, I wish people wouldn't steal the Ziploc bags! Or would close the container properly. Oh, well. But, sometimes that takes a month!

 

Three years of 'soggy log' NM would seem to call for SBA. That is a definite lack of maintenance.

[+Renegade Knight]

...If you would leave such rubbish beside the roadway in your caching area, for fear of being accused of "holding a grudge", then obviously we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.

 

I'd leave it because it's a cache, it was desinged that way (for better or worse) it can be found making it viable. Not a 'disposal' candidate.

 

Looks like we will disagree on that. Fair enough.

 

8" of snow this morning. Much more by the end of the week. That "normally a few weeks" guideline must come from an area that doesn't see roads become closed for the season, snow that buries caches for months on end and such.

[+Castle Mischief]

 

A bug can be marked as missing by the Bug owner, cache owner (when the bug is in their cache), and a Groundspeak employee/volunteer.

 

Some of the Groundspeak folks move bugs when they have the time to research and determine that a bug needs to be moved. Otherwise they take requests from non-bug/cache owners.

 

That's good to know. What's the protocol- contact the local reviewer or will random reviewer work?

 

PS: Honeychile, I swear I will not clog up your email with lost TB nag traffic...