Paypal a bad idea for presales...

[+scavok]

I'm wondering if anybody out there knows of a good cheap alternative for paypall payment processing that they would recommend. The paypal pro credit card processing is only $30 a month plus a percentage no other charges (set up, and everything else....). I know they don't like presales so I was wondering what if I called it a "reservation" that you have to pay up front for and charge it as a service rather than as an item. Would that fly with paypal?

 

I have the money set aside just in case of a problem with paypal (like tsun unfortunately had) so I can still produce if my account gets frozen, but I'd rather avoid that risk all together of course!

 

I couldn't even find the section in the paypal user agreement preventing presales. All I could find was that an intangible item isn't covered by their buyer/seller protection....

 

I'd appreciate advice that doesn't include "Just use your own money up front." I already see that as an option, I'm looking for alternatives I haven't thought of yet that may save me time and money (keeping the price of the coins down in the end...).

 

I'm afraid with my tight budget that I may have to resort to just minting 50 coins at a time to prevent presale issues but I don't know how I would do that with the mint and tracking codes....

 

Thanks all!

 

Mods: I still believe this is geocoin related because all I plan on selling is trackable geocoins, but if you feel this needs moved feel free to do so.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

I'm wondering if anybody out there knows of a good cheap alternative for paypall payment processing that they would recommend. The paypal pro credit card processing is only $30 a month plus a percentage no other charges (set up, and everything else....). I know they don't like presales so I was wondering what if I called it a "reservation" that you have to pay up front for and charge it as a service rather than as an item. Would that fly with paypal?

 

I have the money set aside just in case of a problem with paypal (like tsun unfortunately had) so I can still produce if my account gets frozen, but I'd rather avoid that risk all together of course!

 

I couldn't even find the section in the paypal user agreement preventing presales. All I could find was that an intangible item isn't covered by their buyer/seller protection....

 

I'd appreciate advice that doesn't include "Just use your own money up front." I already see that as an option, I'm looking for alternatives I haven't thought of yet that may save me time and money (keeping the price of the coins down in the end...).

 

I'm afraid with my tight budget that I may have to resort to just minting 50 coins at a time to prevent presale issues but I don't know how I would do that with the mint and tracking codes....

 

Thanks all!

 

Mods: I still believe this is geocoin related because all I plan on selling is trackable geocoins, but if you feel this needs moved feel free to do so.

A loophole could be that you are selling a Guaranteed Redemption Certificate. You deliver them the certificate that guarantees them a coin when they are made. Since what you sold was the Certificate, and not the coin itself, then you have delivered what you sold. I don't know, but just the first thing that pops into my head. It would be like a gift card.

[+tsunrisebey]

WSW,

 

That's actually not a bad idea. Sell a GC instead of a coin and kind of redeemable for the 'known' coin when they are done. From a vendor perspective that is. Would warrant a little creative writing and research for CYA.

 

The only draw back to something like that is customer awareness and comprehension of what is actually taking place. Concerns being: English not being everyone's primary language so possible misunderstandings, heck even those who speak English have issues with comprehension, lol.

 

The nice thing about this would be you could refund the 'GC' if necessary without risk of getting the account lock. That is an assumption being made by me though.

 

Hmmm, food for thought. I'd be interested to watch someone go this route.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

WSW,

 

That's actually not a bad idea. Sell a GC instead of a coin and kind of redeemable for the 'known' coin when they are done. From a vendor perspective that is. Would warrant a little creative writing and research for CYA.

 

The only draw back to something like that is customer awareness and comprehension of what is actually taking place. Concerns being: English not being everyone's primary language so possible misunderstandings, heck even those who speak English have issues with comprehension, lol.

 

The nice thing about this would be you could refund the 'GC' if necessary without risk of getting the account lock. That is an assumption being made by me though.

 

Hmmm, food for thought. I'd be interested to watch someone go this route.

I don't sell through Paypal, so those who do would have to figure out the details, but there must be a way to do that. Like selling concert tickets. The seller is not responsible if the concert is cancelled, since they delivered the tickets as sold.

[+LadyBee4T]

A quick thought here. The certificate doesn't do anything to protect the buyer. If the coins aren't delivered but they have the certificate then they have actually received what they paid for and wouldn't have any recourse through paypal or their credit card to get their money back. IMHO it sounds good for the seller but personally I wouldn't go for it at all as a buyer

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

A quick thought here. The certificate doesn't do anything to protect the buyer. If the coins aren't delivered but they have the certificate then they have actually received what they paid for and wouldn't have any recourse through paypal or their credit card to get their money back. IMHO it sounds good for the seller but personally I wouldn't go for it at all as a buyer

I think that's the idea in this thread. Paypal has rules about how long one has to deliver the product, and violations can get the account locked. If a Vendor's account is locked, then they won't even be able to get the money out to pay for coins they are having minted. That means that one screwy situation could put them out of business. This is a way to have a presele without running the risk of getting blocked by paypal's rules.

 

I agree that I probably wouldn't buy these either, but it could be a loophole.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

A quick thought here. The certificate doesn't do anything to protect the buyer. If the coins aren't delivered but they have the certificate then they have actually received what they paid for and wouldn't have any recourse through paypal or their credit card to get their money back. IMHO it sounds good for the seller but personally I wouldn't go for it at all as a buyer

I think that's the idea in this thread. Paypal has rules about how long one has to deliver the product, and violations can get the account locked. If a Vendor's account is locked, then they won't even be able to get the money out to pay for coins they are having minted. That means that one screwy situation could put them out of business. This is a way to have a presele without running the risk of getting blocked by paypal's rules.

 

I agree that I probably wouldn't buy these either, but it could be a loophole.

You are right about having no recourse, but that may entitle them to file in small claims court if the coins are never minted and the company is still in business.

[+Renegade Knight]

...

A loophole could be that you are selling a Guaranteed Redemption Certificate. You deliver them the certificate that guarantees them a coin when they are made. Since what you sold was the Certificate, and not the coin itself, then you have delivered what you sold. I don't know, but just the first thing that pops into my head. It would be like a gift card.

 

That's about the only workaround I can think of for PayPal. A seller can take funds directly. PayPal is only one method of payment. It's convenient some ways and a PITA in others.

[+tsunrisebey]

A quick thought here. The certificate doesn't do anything to protect the buyer. If the coins aren't delivered but they have the certificate then they have actually received what they paid for and wouldn't have any recourse through paypal or their credit card to get their money back. IMHO it sounds good for the seller but personally I wouldn't go for it at all as a buyer

 

That's not necessarily true. If your GC is worded as ; Gift Certificate for 1 Antique Nickel, Johnny Cash Version, Dragonfly Talisman geocoin, it seems to me it's selling the coin via pre-sale but in gift certificate form. If you don't get your JC DT within the 45 days or 30 days, you file a claim with paypal, same as a coin. I haven't done all the research for this nor do I plan to spend my time doing so. In the end the vendor should do what they feel they can handle or what is best for themselves. Same as the customer, you don't want to take a chance on buying a GC for 'said coin'. Then trade for it down the road or buy it it on ebay. No option is perfect for both vendor and customer.

 

Personally I kinda like the idea but not sure I want to go that route myself. I wanna see someone else do it first

[+Renegade Knight]

A quick thought here. The certificate doesn't do anything to protect the buyer. If the coins aren't delivered but they have the certificate then they have actually received what they paid for and wouldn't have any recourse through paypal or their credit card to get their money back. IMHO it sounds good for the seller but personally I wouldn't go for it at all as a buyer

Buyer protection is one reason PayPal has the rules it does. Some of those rules get in the way of how we do geocoins though no fault of the seller or PayPal. Since PayPal isn't likely to make an exception on the practice of prepaying for coins we have to find workarounds. Buyers have to be comfortably with a seller that would do this for the reasons you point out.

[+LadyBee4T]

A quick thought here. The certificate doesn't do anything to protect the buyer. If the coins aren't delivered but they have the certificate then they have actually received what they paid for and wouldn't have any recourse through paypal or their credit card to get their money back. IMHO it sounds good for the seller but personally I wouldn't go for it at all as a buyer

 

That's not necessarily true. If your GC is worded as ; Gift Certificate for 1 Antique Nickel, Johnny Cash Version, Dragonfly Talisman geocoin, it seems to me it's selling the coin via pre-sale but in gift certificate form. If you don't get your JC DT within the 45 days or 30 days, you file a claim with paypal, same as a coin. I haven't done all the research for this nor do I plan to spend my time doing so. In the end the vendor should do what they feel they can handle or what is best for themselves. Same as the customer, you don't want to take a chance on buying a GC for 'said coin'. Then trade for it down the road or buy it it on ebay. No option is perfect for both vendor and customer.

 

Personally I kinda like the idea but not sure I want to go that route myself. I wanna see someone else do it first

 

Well if its not any different since you still have 45 days to file then why bother? From a buyer's standpoint I would still file on day #44 if I didn't have the coin in hand but if it said I was buying a gift certificate and I did have that in hand I bet I would lose my dispute. Right now with the things going on it seems to me that the buyer's are the ones that need the protection. Small claims court might be an option but for me to travel and file isn't viable.

[+tsunrisebey]

A quick thought here. The certificate doesn't do anything to protect the buyer. If the coins aren't delivered but they have the certificate then they have actually received what they paid for and wouldn't have any recourse through paypal or their credit card to get their money back. IMHO it sounds good for the seller but personally I wouldn't go for it at all as a buyer

 

That's not necessarily true. If your GC is worded as ; Gift Certificate for 1 Antique Nickel, Johnny Cash Version, Dragonfly Talisman geocoin, it seems to me it's selling the coin via pre-sale but in gift certificate form. If you don't get your JC DT within the 45 days or 30 days, you file a claim with paypal, same as a coin. I haven't done all the research for this nor do I plan to spend my time doing so. In the end the vendor should do what they feel they can handle or what is best for themselves. Same as the customer, you don't want to take a chance on buying a GC for 'said coin'. Then trade for it down the road or buy it it on ebay. No option is perfect for both vendor and customer.

 

Personally I kinda like the idea but not sure I want to go that route myself. I wanna see someone else do it first

 

Well if its not any different since you still have 45 days to file then why bother? From a buyer's standpoint I would still file on day #44 if I didn't have the coin in hand but if it said I was buying a gift certificate and I did have that in hand I bet I would lose my dispute. Right now with the things going on it seems to me that the buyer's are the ones that need the protection. Small claims court might be an option but for me to travel and file isn't viable.

 

You win, I have a football game to watch. No time to sit here and debate this Let's put it this way, if I , scavok or any other vendor were to try something like this, you would have to decide whether or not you trusted us to honor the agreement set forth on the wording of the GC for 'said coin'.

[+webscouter.]

How about a certificate good for the coin or cash? You might even be able to word it in such a way that if the coin is available and the buyer backs out they pay a "backing out" penalty.

[+scavok]

OK so here is the verdict straight from the horse's mouth, true or not we'll see...

 

Anyway I decided to simply call paypal and explicitly ask them. What they told me was a normal paypal user or even "basic" merchant (a normal member that defines their account as a business) is expected to ship an item that is paid for within 10 days or the funds are frozen until receipt of delivery is provn, or until 60 days pass to allow disputes to be filed and money refunded.

 

I opted to pay for paypal service for website paypal payment pro where paypal payment processing is integrated in to my website's shopping system and all that jazz. Anyway when I signed up for that account (I pay rather than using a "free" service) I enter in to a new user agreement where I assume all liability and responsibility. The 45 day window for filing a dispute is still allowed and credit card disputes that take back their money I am also responsible for, but I won't have my account frozen by paypal for simply performing a presale. The paypal rep did give me a stern warning that they have had many customers have bad experiences because in this case paypal covers the buyer and not the seller if there is a dispute of any sort so there is an inherit risk from bad buyers as opposed to paypal alone.

 

So we'll see how it goes. I will barr bad buyers from ever purchasing from my website again without a second thought (sort of like C&P and others), but assume the risk otherwise since I see it as less of a monetary risk compared to misjudging the amount to mint up front.

 

Thoughts?

[Tooeygeotrashed]

It looks as though you have it pretty well set out and know the risks, so I guess it's up to you how you want to conduct your sales and finance production, although - I do understand that pre-sales for some vendors are not about financing the production, it's really about gauging the market more accurately and I can well understand why anyone would wish to do that, particularly in the current economic climate. Personally I will never purchase coins on pre-sale, the economy is just way to skittish at the moment. Companies of all shapes and sizes are getting chewed out, so even a 'reputable' company that one might think is not at risk could go belly up at the drop of a hat. I've seen some crazy marketing ploys of late trying to get customers to buy product that isn't selling, I would hate for that trend to continue here.

 

I think Groundspeak are missing an opportunity here, with the increasing number of members and interest in coins I am sure there are a lot of people that would be very happy to have a coin they designed minted, but if the minimum sold HAS to be 250 to make it viable it makes it too much of a risk.

 

However you decide to proceed, I wish you success and if you do go the pre-sale route then hopefully I will get the chance to trade for one at a later time.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Well...you could sell the pre-sell coins as a design "service".

 

The certificate might be good. It gives the buyer proof that they paid for something if it came to a legal issue (non-fulfillment). It also increases your postal cost if you mail the certificate, but I suppose you could e-mail it.

 

Personally, whenever I have purchased a pre-order, I "get" the fact that I am not going to see the coin(s) for up to 8 weeks or even more. I think that you have to understand this or don't order pre-sales. It's not like your payment was the magic key that automatically got the design approved, the tracking numbers delivered, the production completed, the product shipped and then mysteriously went from China to the creator to your mailbox while you poured another cup of coffee.

 

It's all about communication.

 

I took a brief vacation from these forums for ahile, so I understand there have been some dicey situations around here. If you need a risk-free transaction, you probably should only order coins that are already minited and/or only buy from people you know or are known to you.

 

In today's environment, we never would have been able to create some of the coins from the past - with one coin the pre-orders were open for a month before the coin was even sent in for production! (we minted to match the demand - so we had a 30-day "open" order time). The coins then took 6 weeks to mint and deliver to be broken into packages and another 3-4 weeks to get to everyone (especially the 50+ to groups in Europe). Something tells me this wouldn't fly today before folks started freaking out about the coins!

 

EDIT TO ADD:

 

PayPal doesn't track when you send items out. They only respond and lock out an account if someone complains. So if folks are "trigger" happy and complain if they think the coin is taking too long - that's the real problem. If you set expectations up-front it may help to avoid this, but all it takes is one bad apple.

 

For example, I've only ever had 1 neutral comment on eBay - it was from someone that won a geocoin and then complained that it hadn't arrived after THREE days. Sorry - small packages don't travel that fast in normal circumstances, especially across borders. Both buyers and sellers have to set realistic expectations and communicate well. Of course, if someone takes your payment and you never hear from them.... that's a problem....

Edited December 15, 2008 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+scavok]

I totally agree that communication is key. There is always going to be the "special" customer unfortunately. I don't think it matters if you make certificates, presale or sell in stock; your ebay buyer proves that It just sort of comes down to the risk of the buyer getting antsy after a couple weeks and demanding their money back after I've paid it to the mint but haven't received the coin yet. It would come out of my pocket and I'll end up recovering the cost by ebaying it to that same buyer for double the original cost once the coin is in stock

 

Otherwise, as tooey pointed out, the buyers need to trust the sellers too, and the sellers have to trust the middle-men, and the middle-men have to trust the mints, and the mints have to trust their suppliers, and .... well yea. If you don't like the presale option no worries - everyone has their preferences. For the sales I do there will often be a non-presale after the main minting for a small batch or different finishes. And I do love trades!

[+tsunrisebey]

 

EDIT TO ADD:

 

PayPal doesn't track when you send items out. They only respond and lock out an account if someone complains. So if folks are "trigger" happy and complain if they think the coin is taking too long - that's the real problem. If you set expectations up-front it may help to avoid this, but all it takes is one bad apple.

 

 

I would like to comment on this section only. I got my account locked and I had only just finished the presale, it was day 5 the last day of presales on a remint. That's a heckuva complaint and quite the expectation to get a coin before the presale even ended hence I never will do a presale again. I wrote an entire novel about my experience on here about it. I'm still not able to let it go I wouldn't trust anything that paypal told me because in my rotten experience speaking to their support and managers, I got several different answers to the same questions when I called. It was a flippin' nightmare and I have NEVER had 1 complaint with paypal for as long as I've been doing this and ebaying prior to ever doing geocoins. For instance 1 person tried to tell me I was required to have tracking for all packages even for overseas (now come on....) anyhow different answer when I spoke to someone else. I'd drop paypal in a second if there was a better option. Now you done got me all riled up, lol.

[+scavok]

It's like you're bitter about it or something

 

Is there a better option you or anyone have come across?

[+tsunrisebey]

It's like you're bitter about it or something

 

Is there a better option you or anyone have come across?

 

To be honest, I don't think so. Unless Google checkout takes off sometime soon.

 

Me bitter about paypal? Nooooooooooo It's a good thing you can't reach through the telephone cause a few people at paypal would have tsun's fingerprints on their necks

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Generally, you can always count on PayPal (and the Credit Card companies) always take the side of the consumer and not the seller.

 

To have a case, you'd need signatures for EVERYTHING.

 

Signature authorizing the charge (phone orders and online are not signed)

Signature accepting delivery (hence, tracking #)

 

The good news is that 99% of folks are good and won't complain.

 

PayPal will LOCK the account on ONE complaint. (okay..sometimes they will just reverse the payment and place it on "hold", but if they think there is something odd (against their policies) - then it's lock-o-rama!

 

So.

 

PayPal for pre-orders. Not a good idea unless you are very, very up-front with all buyers on time-frames.