We have a delequent Vendor thread what about the same for customers?

[+AtwellFamily]

I have, for the most part, conducted reservations for coins I have sold in the past. People commit to a number of coins and when they come in I bill them. It works well for most people invovled. I have had some people back out and at times they have reserved large quantities.

 

Is there a list somewhere of these people so vendors can either collect up front or not take reservations from them? I have created my own list but if there was one we could share that might help.

 

I might include those who take weeks to pay with no email updates either. I send invoice and keep the public informed here and by email that the invoices have been sent and yet I don't hear back for weeks from some people.

 

Just a question on the other side of the "coin". Pun intended:).

[+Cheesy pigs]

I think this sounds fair enough

[+TeamEccs21]

Deadbeats are deadbeats. If we as a community are willing to trash vendors who don't deliver or don't keep everyone informed then we should be prepared to take some heat when we don't hold up our end of the bargain.

My $.02

[+MountainRacer]

Public accountability is a double-edged sword, so I don't see why it shouldn't cut both ways in this case. As a member of the caching community, the most valuable thing you have is your reputation (your binder notwithstanding ), so you should have to worry about having it tarnished if you do something to deserve it. Call it motivation to stay clean.

[+nashuan]

I'm in agreement with A.F. on this, and just spent a good 20-minutes writing up this whole long thing about why I agree, but then deleted it as it is just simple common sense. If we are to hold sellers to a reasonable professional standard (which we obviously should), then the consumer should have an equal amount of responsibility on thier side. Problem solved.

 

Start the list.

[ELTADA]

What's good for the goose is good for the gander (or you can insert another suitably cheesy cliche here). After all, judging by some of the lack of accountability in some of the mission threads these days, I bet there is a fair number of customers that don't follow through with vendors either.

 

However, I think the big difference here is that some of the vendors in question are actually stealing from customers by taking money and not providing the product. The equivilant on the other side of the fence would be if a customer received the product but did not pay. With reservations, you are taking a bit of a risk but can ultimately sell the product to someone else instead. (a reservation at a restaurant doesn't mean that you have to pay if you don't show up - it's not nice, don't get me wrong...).

 

Though I think, just maybe, I could use this smilie for the first time:

[+Eric K]

Mike:

 

I feel your pain. I have quite a large number of non-paid reservations for a recent coin.

 

If it's just a few here or there it usually works out.

 

As far as posting customers who don't pay I don't know if you would want to open up yourself for that legally.

 

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but if you post your customers information in a public forum that may be some kind of breach of privacy.

 

Like I said, I feel your pain as far as customers that don't pay on their reservations but I don't have an answer for that.

 

It's a double edge sword, if you underorder from your reservations then of course everyone that reserved will then pay.

 

I'll keep my eye on this thread as I would guess you and I aren't the only ones having this issue.

[+Jackalgirl]

I think it'd be fair too. However, Erik K has a point -- especially if a vendor states on his/her website, at any point, that the customer's information will be kept private or confidential. I'm not a lawyer either, tho, so take what I suggest with a grain of salt.

 

Any lawyers here? If a vendor put something like "all personal information - with the exception of geonick - will be kept confidential", with a checkbox for understanding -- would that fly?

[+LadyBee4T]

I think the flip of the coin is only fair. I know that life sometimes gets in the way but there is no reason to not answer emails. Its hard to admit that you can't do something but really it is rather rude. Its the ones that do it time after time that are the problem and should be called out. However, if they put their name on a reservation list is there actually any legal responsibility to buy them? Ethically there is for sure.

 

Someone mentioned the missions too. It has been a problem for quite awhile that some don't send out their end of the bargain. I think they should be called out too. I know of one who received 3 missions and didn't send out any. But he was able to send out the coins he sold on ebay.....Enough said.

 

I have no idea of the legalities of publically naming the ones who don't follow through with their reservations. Maybe the list could be shared among the vendors?

[+DJ.J.ROCK]

Im the customer,,and say make the list,,its only fair that you cover your own butt in this matter,,if a list cannot be made --mabie limit someones order to a certian amount,if you may suspect,something. and say after you pay for those you can buy more,, or mabie get a deposit on large orders say 50% or more that way your butt is not hanging out the door for so many coins,m, just a few ideas

[+Droo]

Deadbeats are deadbeats. If we as a community are willing to trash vendors who don't deliver or don't keep everyone informed then we should be prepared to take some heat when we don't hold up our end of the bargain.

My $.02

 

Hear hear

[+The Leprechauns]

I'm notoriously slow at paying bills and sending stuff in the mail. I don't think I've been to a post office since before Christmas 2007. Largely for this reason, I've avoided the whole geocoin subscription and mailing craze. I just *know* I would let people down, and I don't want to do that. This same personality trait is also what has kept me from producing my own geocoin. I don't want to be the subject of a forum thread, either as a buyer or as a seller.

 

I think payment problems ought to be resolved between seller and buyer privately. The seller (particularly the established, regular vendor) does have one effective remedy: after a bad experience, don't sell to that customer again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

Though I am a lawyer, the prior paragraph should not be construed as legal advice. It is just my personal opinion. If you'd like my legal opinion, it's $250 per hour.

[+Eartha]

It's called the Honor System. You either have honor, or you don't care.

 

The difference between delinquent vendors and buyers is that these vendors have taken people's money already, and are not giving it back, and are not coming up with the goods. Buyers are not taking money from anyone. And I know a vendor counts on reservations to know how many to produce, but that's the risk they take. You have to factor in a certain amount of no shows. So no, I'm sorry, these forums will not be a place to announce that someone changed their mind about buying a coin.

 

Maybe reservations isn't the way to go. What about a lay-away plan? Maybe a 10% deposit down to reserve. I had a job once, where we knew if there was a deposit, the buyer wouldn't reneg on paying the balance and they wouldn't change their mind and go find it somewhere else while we were making the product for them. Not when they already invested, they wouldn't. That's just a thought, and it's a recommendation for reputable vendors.

[+Rockin Roddy]

It's called the Honor System. You either have honor, or you don't care.

 

The difference between delinquent vendors and buyers is that these vendors have taken people's money already, and are not giving it back, and are not coming up with the goods. Buyers are not taking money from anyone. And I know a vendor counts on reservations to know how many to produce, but that's the risk they take. You have to factor in a certain amount of no shows. So no, I'm sorry, these forums will not be a place to announce that someone changed their mind about buying a coin.

 

Maybe reservations isn't the way to go. What about a lay-away plan? Maybe a 10% deposit down to reserve. I had a job once, where we knew if there was a deposit, the buyer wouldn't reneg on paying the balance and they wouldn't change their mind and go find it somewhere else while we were making the product for them. Not when they already invested, they wouldn't. That's just a thought, and it's a recommendation for reputable vendors.

 

Sounds like more work for the seller, but a good idea. I don't think many sellers will adopt this, but I have been wrong before!

 

Also, I agree that this isn't the place to post names of buyers who change their minds. You might get frustrated about them backing out, but we should have the right to change our minds when we occasionally overstep our budgets or buy before engaging the brain! At the end of it all, you still have that coin to sell to someone else unlike us buyers who lose our money when the coins aren't produced! Start posting names and you'll likely see a whole new set of problems with selling coins, such as no one willing to commit to reservations. Then coiners won't have any way to guage interest in a coin and might either over-produce or under-produce their coins!

 

As Eartha says, it's all about honor!

[+Rockin Roddy]

I'm notoriously slow at paying bills and sending stuff in the mail. I don't think I've been to a post office since before Christmas 2007. Largely for this reason, I've avoided the whole geocoin subscription and mailing craze. I just *know* I would let people down, and I don't want to do that. This same personality trait is also what has kept me from producing my own geocoin. I don't want to be the subject of a forum thread, either as a buyer or as a seller.

 

I think payment problems ought to be resolved between seller and buyer privately. The seller (particularly the established, regular vendor) does have one effective remedy: after a bad experience, don't sell to that customer again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

Though I am a lawyer, the prior paragraph should not be construed as legal advice. It is just my personal opinion. If you'd like my legal opinion, it's $250 per hour.

 

Get off your lazy rear and get that coin made dadgumit!

 

Seriously, we are waiting, my friend! A good way around the late payment thing is to just pay upfront in your case, so GET TO IT!! At $250 an hour, you could pay for your coin in mere hours!!

 

I know I'm waiting "patiently" for you to get your personal made!! And I loved the ideas you shot at me at GCF!

[+DresselDragons]

It's called the Honor System. You either have honor, or you don't care.

 

The difference between delinquent vendors and buyers is that these vendors have taken people's money already, and are not giving it back, and are not coming up with the goods. Buyers are not taking money from anyone. And I know a vendor counts on reservations to know how many to produce, but that's the risk they take. You have to factor in a certain amount of no shows. So no, I'm sorry, these forums will not be a place to announce that someone changed their mind about buying a coin.

 

Maybe reservations isn't the way to go. What about a lay-away plan? Maybe a 10% deposit down to reserve. I had a job once, where we knew if there was a deposit, the buyer wouldn't reneg on paying the balance and they wouldn't change their mind and go find it somewhere else while we were making the product for them. Not when they already invested, they wouldn't. That's just a thought, and it's a recommendation for reputable vendors.

 

Sounds like more work for the seller, but a good idea. I don't think many sellers will adopt this, but I have been wrong before!

 

Also, I agree that this isn't the place to post names of buyers who change their minds. You might get frustrated about them backing out, but we should have the right to change our minds when we occasionally overstep our budgets or buy before engaging the brain! At the end of it all, you still have that coin to sell to someone else unlike us buyers who lose our money when the coins aren't produced! Start posting names and you'll likely see a whole new set of problems with selling coins, such as no one willing to commit to reservations. Then coiners won't have any way to guage interest in a coin and might either over-produce or under-produce their coins!

 

As Eartha says, it's all about honor!

I agree with Rod...when you make a hotel reservation, you have the option to cancel it (up to a certain point). I can even reserve a video game or a book, and then opt not to purchase the item. Why should coins be any different? A reservation is not a contract to purchase, right? I believe that folks should have the option to back out...however, the buyer should have the common courtesy to email the vendor and let them know.

[+TropicalParadise]

How do the vendors know which name belongs to which geocaching account? I don't think that when I order via established websites that they know my geocaching account name. Full names posted here would, in my opinion, be a bad bad idea for business.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

It's called the Honor System. You either have honor, or you don't care.

 

The difference between delinquent vendors and buyers is that these vendors have taken people's money already, and are not giving it back, and are not coming up with the goods. Buyers are not taking money from anyone. And I know a vendor counts on reservations to know how many to produce, but that's the risk they take. You have to factor in a certain amount of no shows. So no, I'm sorry, these forums will not be a place to announce that someone changed their mind about buying a coin.

 

Maybe reservations isn't the way to go. What about a lay-away plan? Maybe a 10% deposit down to reserve. I had a job once, where we knew if there was a deposit, the buyer wouldn't reneg on paying the balance and they wouldn't change their mind and go find it somewhere else while we were making the product for them. Not when they already invested, they wouldn't. That's just a thought, and it's a recommendation for reputable vendors.

 

I think Eartha has pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say here. I think a simple deposit for orders over a certain number is both reasonable and pretty much accepted practice in most businesses. Vendors take risks in order numbers, but ultimately they can re-order more. That's coming from a guy who only stands to lose when people don't pay up

[+ThirstyMick]

It's called the Honor System. You either have honor, or you don't care.

 

The difference between delinquent vendors and buyers is that these vendors have taken people's money already, and are not giving it back, and are not coming up with the goods. Buyers are not taking money from anyone. And I know a vendor counts on reservations to know how many to produce, but that's the risk they take. You have to factor in a certain amount of no shows. So no, I'm sorry, these forums will not be a place to announce that someone changed their mind about buying a coin.

 

Maybe reservations isn't the way to go. What about a lay-away plan? Maybe a 10% deposit down to reserve. I had a job once, where we knew if there was a deposit, the buyer wouldn't reneg on paying the balance and they wouldn't change their mind and go find it somewhere else while we were making the product for them. Not when they already invested, they wouldn't. That's just a thought, and it's a recommendation for reputable vendors.

 

Sounds like more work for the seller, but a good idea. I don't think many sellers will adopt this, but I have been wrong before!

 

Also, I agree that this isn't the place to post names of buyers who change their minds. You might get frustrated about them backing out, but we should have the right to change our minds when we occasionally overstep our budgets or buy before engaging the brain! At the end of it all, you still have that coin to sell to someone else unlike us buyers who lose our money when the coins aren't produced! Start posting names and you'll likely see a whole new set of problems with selling coins, such as no one willing to commit to reservations. Then coiners won't have any way to guage interest in a coin and might either over-produce or under-produce their coins!

 

As Eartha says, it's all about honor!

 

Also if you start posting names of customers who backed out of reservations you might get response posts from them saying things you don't want to hear, like "I reserved based on the artwork, and the final product was ugly"

 

/just hypothetically.. I have NO idea if this thread is a response to a particular coins reservation, and I'm not calling anyones coins ugly

[+forthferalz]

Add me to the list! I've bowed out of one or two in the past - sorry you know who you are.

 

This was in the days when I didn't exactly realise what a 'reservation' exactly meant in terms of coin vendor orderings. I thought it was like vendor had committed to buy say 100 pocket helicopter coins and were just taking bookings for their prepaid stuff. Like they do at the local shops for the kids computer games. They don't worry about collecting money and then having to give it back, or at least i never hear any whinges from either party and they have a printed policy of absorbing 'changed your mind' happily in a set time frame on everything except sale items. It works on balance i expect due to volume and their markup based on their retailing expertise. It's a huge market and they have got the balance right with their customers I think cause my kids are very happy and could not be bothered buying cheaper directly from asia online because the delay to shipment always exceeds the stated 6 days. ( aaah aging - i remember when 6 sleeps was waaaay too long but I now I'm not even going to bother calling 6 days a delay!)

 

Personally I think what is needed on both sides is more education. Not many folk are going to see both sides first hand although it's far more common now. I guess vendors will go back to the good? old days of undersupply if buyers can't meet us in the middle which is what a pre-sale is for.

 

Coin reservations are more like ticket concert seats so to speak and you need to be upfront about it, and if you intend in face of demand exceeding a certain limit to do a second concert. Coinsandpins word their presales bluntly although I think they are lacking in customer service in that they do not set an upper limit on any coin which makes it hard from my end to know whether to commit limited funds or not. It is really annoying to find I could have waited and just ordered the navigation coins later for instance as a set to ease the shipping cost.

 

The billionty and one xtracolours phenomenon from other makers is really off putting as well. I was really happy I missed out on the two toned alaska silver cause I got to buy the coinament instead.

[+NeverSummer]

It's called the Honor System. You either have honor, or you don't care.

 

The difference between delinquent vendors and buyers is that these vendors have taken people's money already, and are not giving it back, and are not coming up with the goods. Buyers are not taking money from anyone. And I know a vendor counts on reservations to know how many to produce, but that's the risk they take. You have to factor in a certain amount of no shows. So no, I'm sorry, these forums will not be a place to announce that someone changed their mind about buying a coin.

 

Maybe reservations isn't the way to go. What about a lay-away plan? Maybe a 10% deposit down to reserve. I had a job once, where we knew if there was a deposit, the buyer wouldn't reneg on paying the balance and they wouldn't change their mind and go find it somewhere else while we were making the product for them. Not when they already invested, they wouldn't. That's just a thought, and it's a recommendation for reputable vendors.

I'm with Eartha here. Taking reservations isn't like a promise for money, rather, it is a probe for interest, IMO.

 

All that aside, I think a reporting system would be good. I don't know that a public, "put them in the stocks"-like thread would be a good idea. If Groundspeak is involved in the monetary end (which they are, on all trackable coins), they should take in complaints involving any item in their interest--seller or buyer.

 

It would be a bad, bad, bad flame war if it were public, and with reservations it would be a tough thing to enforce (as there was no money exchanged...it was the seller's gamble with numbers off the mint no matter how you slice it in that case) I DO think that it should become a part of Groundspeak's growing base to have a reporting system for all things caching related. From cache listing to cache theft/neglect/misuse/oversaturation (essentially exists, but should evolve to be a "Trusted User"-style system of enforcement), and trackable abuse.

 

Coin thief sock-puppet? report system

Forum flamer sock-puppet? report system

Mission abuse? report system

Bad business from coin seller? report system

Abuse of presales? report system

Coin market manipulator (reserve large amount, back out last minute=over-produced and devalued coin, etc)? report system.

 

I don't think public display is a good idea, but I do think that Groundspeak has a very large gorilla in the corner of the room with coining and general caching issues. As this site continues to grow, there seems to be a need for more enforcement of ethical use of this site. If you are (validly) reported enough, you should be flagged and possibly banned. No cache publishing, no Premium features, name sent to coin distributors/sellers/creators to keep their business safe. Groundspeak asks for a portion of all trackable coin sales, so they should help enforce the ethical use of their product, IMO.

 

Geocoin sales and resales have created a small-scale "stock market" or commodity trade here in this thread. Without sensible, ethical enforcement of Groundspeak's stake in the market, we will see corruption, misuse, theft and full-scale dissolution of what should be the fun, safe, ethical, interesting and creative activity that is geocoins.

 

...IMO

Edited December 9, 2008 by NeverSummer

[+Renegade Knight]

I'm slow. It took so long to develop the Friends of Caching #1 coin that I had about a 50% default rate on pre orders. However I didn't let that bother me, afer all that took longer than even the vast amount of time that I thought it would take. I figured that some folks had enough time to both get hooked on geocoins and burn out on them as well. Besides It was a probe for interest to help set the size of the coin run. In the future I now have an idea of interest and won't need to probe.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

You can put me at the top of the list. I'm another one who is slow at paying my bills. especially when the payment option is sending a check in the mail. That's why all my bills are on automatic payments. Here's all the lists you can put me on...Don't take reservations from me, don't play my cointests, don't trade with me, don't let me join missions, don't buy anything from me, don't be my Mom, or my friend, as these all will lead to dissappointment from my lack of speedy communication. Sorry Mom, haven't called since last Christmas. What exactly is the problem we have here. Backing out of a reservation is one thing, I guess. Is the speed of payment really a problem? I recently reserved some Coins that were supposed to be delivered to those who pay first, on a first pay first ship program. The description of this program seemed to indicate that some who wanted to get the coins could send in their money, but if all the coins were already paid for by those who were faster(and shipped to them), then what. Maybe I misunderstood the program? After I made the reservation, I really started to wonder what would happen to my check if all the coins were gone by the time it got there.

[+Rockin Roddy]

You can put me at the top of the list. I'm another one who is slow at paying my bills. especially when the payment option is sending a check in the mail. That's why all my bills are on automatic payments. Here's all the lists you can put me on...Don't take reservations from me, don't play my cointests, don't trade with me, don't let me join missions, don't buy anything from me, don't be my Mom, or my friend, as these all will lead to dissappointment from my lack of speedy communication. Sorry Mom, haven't called since last Christmas. What exactly is the problem we have here. Backing out of a reservation is one thing, I guess. Is the speed of payment really a problem? I recently reserved some Coins that were supposed to be delivered to those who pay first, on a first pay first ship program. The description of this program seemed to indicate that some who wanted to get the coins could send in their money, but if all the coins were already paid for by those who were faster(and shipped to them), then what. Maybe I misunderstood the program? After I made the reservation, I really started to wonder what would happen to my check if all the coins were gone by the time it got there.

 

We sure sound a lot alike!

[+tsunrisebey]

I think this is an excellent topic and when I get home tonight I would like to add my 10 cents

[+Dr. Whoever]

Good topic, only issue is for me anyway it's not people (customers) here on the forum who have backed out of large orders. It has been customers (or non-customers) who are not forum regulars.

[+tsunrisebey]

Alright, I'm ready to post a lengthy response Quit reading now if you don't normally like my postings

 

In the 2 years I've been here doing this, I have found that I have had to change the way I do things because of few bad apples. There are a number of customers who seem to think that the vendors should put up with everything that comes their way because they are a business and 'that's just the risks' they should be willing to take. Well I'll tell you what (oops wanting to go off topic here ). Anyhow, I don't think there needs to be a public list per say but maybe a list available to vendors when it comes to reservations. Although reservations aren't done much these days (even I quit doing them because it became too much of a hassle).

 

Instead of debating each post I'm just going to say what I think (agree with it or not). Reservations are not just based on an honor system, most of us have some sort of wording that comes along with the reservations. "You have 3 days to pay upon being invoiced or you order will be..." it's different for each vendor. When you sign up for a reservation you have agreed to to the terms of the reservation set forth by the vendor at the time of the reservation. You are telling the vendor "I would like you to purchase 5 coins on my behalf" with the understanding that I will pay you back for said coins upon receiving the invoice.

 

Now you may sit there and think no big deal, what's an order or two to the vendor? Well, when it comes to coin orders, it really ticks me off when 1 person orders 9 coins (true story and a vendor at that) and then doesn't pay. Now add in the (on average) 5 other people who ordered more than 2 of each version and then didn't pay. I've just forked over a chunk of change to buy your coins for you and then you don't have the common courtesy to reply back to me and explain why you aren't paying after I have invoiced and emailed you in ever possible way. Then as a vendor you are expected to estimate the amount of coins you should have left over to cover damages, lost, etc. coins. Well that adds to the cost of it all too. Then when you are left with a bunch of extras because of nonpayers, it's a waste. Now you can argue well you can trade them or keep them up for sale and my reply to that is, I shouldn't have to do that and if I wanted extra for sale I would order them and I've got enough traders or I don't want to trade. A reservation is for the convenience of the customer it is nothing but a huge pain in the arse for the vendor (it is enormously time consuming to do a reservation).

 

Maybe people don't give a crap because it doesn't affect them but I hope for those of you who ever have the inclination of ever having a reservation for a coin are handed the lesson back. Then maybe you'll think differently about how you handled not paying for your coins.

 

To those who suggested partial payment; well that is kinda like a presale method although at least a vendor can revcover some of the cost on the non-paid coins. But you are still open to having your paypal account locked for taking money and not delivering a coin on time because some payment was taken.

 

Customers want what they want, when they want it and how they want it (I am a customer also) but customers need to be good on their word because a customers actions also are cause for vendors to quit extending courtesies. I've had to stop myself because I personally can't afford to take the risks and I don't want to. Nor does any vendor.

 

So back to the list, does the public need to see it? Probably not, it's best shared between vendors if it gets to that point but I'm not sure there are enough doing reservations anymore. One suggestion I have for a vendor (if you can't pay for a coin when you reserve it, you can't buy a coin when they go up for sale down the road...)

 

I think that people tend to only see the coins for sale and not all the time, money and work that minting just 1 design requires. If people really understood this they would be less apt to complain or not pay for coins when invoiced.

 

Think and plan ahead before you get carried away with ordering a coin, your actions coupled with the actions of others adds up. Honesty, trust, respect, honor system is a 2 way street. Treat others they way you would like to be treated. Abuse this system and you wreck it for everyone involved. I've watched almost every vendor at one point or another get raked over the coals for issues and if you have paid attention over the months/years, most of them don't come here anymore, don't participate in the threads as much because what fun is it when everyone expects you to do their bidding yet when something doesn't go perfectly you're in line to chew someone out?

 

Now don't get me wrong, the majority of customers are A-OK in my book and there isn't a problem and I personally wouldn't hesitate to do what I could for mine but it's a small handful that ruin it for everyone and each time it chips away at what the vendor is willing to do for a customer as far as risk goes.

 

Now while I am at it I want to bring up artwork for customers who want coins done. I can think of another thread (vendor/designer now gone) where they took money for designs and didn't produce them well it works the other way also. I have and I'm sure other vendors have also been on the receiving end of 'please draw me this/please draw me that" I want a coin minted. Well the majority of the customers in this case got their drawings/changes/ etc. and never paid a dime. Again, these are the things that venfors never bring up to the public and whine about. Time/effort go into these things and to turn around and walk away without so much as a word or let me pay you something. I'm just not getting why people would even think this is ok to do, right along with not paying for a reservation. It has been a huge disappoinment.

 

I could go on and on, lol but half of ya quit reading already Common courtesy is all it is, if you can't plan 3 weeks ahead or you got carried away, pay for your coin and then take it as a lesson learned, don't make the vendor pay for your actions because the end result ends up being all customers lose out on an option. If you are in a bind, write the vendor and let them know, most understand.

 

Whew, I think I'm done and I kept it short

Edited December 10, 2008 by tsunrisebey

[SoDakCachers]

I think this is an excellent topic. I am in agreement with NOT making a public list of people who backed out of a coin reservation. I believe there should be some sort of tracking of consistent non payment, but I don't believe it needs to be publicly hashed out in the forums.

I've recently been forced to back out of a couple "reservations". I do not, however, believe I should be put on anyone's HIT list. It's not my fault the place I work decided to close down until the end of the year on a couple day's notice. It goes without saying I need to keep my spending in check for the next few weeks. I'm not looking for pity, it's just these things happen to people all the time and it would be a shame if someone's hardship was cause for having their name splattered all over the forums as a deadbeat. There, my soapbox is put away

Thanks for playing and don't forget to tip the waitresses....oh yeah, try the veal

[+Eric K]

You can put me at the top of the list. I'm another one who is slow at paying my bills. especially when the payment option is sending a check in the mail. That's why all my bills are on automatic payments. Here's all the lists you can put me on...Don't take reservations from me, don't play my cointests, don't trade with me, don't let me join missions, don't buy anything from me, don't be my Mom, or my friend, as these all will lead to dissappointment from my lack of speedy communication. Sorry Mom, haven't called since last Christmas. What exactly is the problem we have here. Backing out of a reservation is one thing, I guess. Is the speed of payment really a problem? I recently reserved some Coins that were supposed to be delivered to those who pay first, on a first pay first ship program. The description of this program seemed to indicate that some who wanted to get the coins could send in their money, but if all the coins were already paid for by those who were faster(and shipped to them), then what. Maybe I misunderstood the program? After I made the reservation, I really started to wonder what would happen to my check if all the coins were gone by the time it got there.

 

I believe this may be referring to the Reservations method used at USA Geocoins.

 

The Guaranteed pre-paid reservations are for people who have agreed to pay theirs in advance. Those coins are 'reserved' when the coins arrive in stock.

 

Those coins always ship out first before standard reservations.

 

As an example, a customer that recently made a guaranteed pre-paid reservation for over $100 in coins did not pay their order. The coins were ordered based on the reservations.

 

If you get 5 or 6 people that do that, that is a lot of extra coins that were not paid for that someone said they would purchase.

 

I do understand that sometimes things come up and people have had to cancel their orders. ANY of those customers that have been courteous enough to reply will tell you that I did not give any of them a hard time and thanked them for letting me know. A little honesty goes a long way.

 

However, just like the vendors that haven't answered any of the questions about coins they haven't shipped. It works both ways when I e-mail that customer asking if they wish to keep their order or need to cancel it and they do not even have the courtesy to reply.

 

When several people do this it adds up.

 

I will be the first to say that this is a small group of people. It's the same as how the few Vendors that have screwed over customers leaves a bad taste in the mouth of customers. A few bad customers can do the same for vendors.

 

The fact that at least three vendors have posted in this thread attest to the fact this practice is on the rise.

 

However, and I want this on the record, that 99% of my customers are great and I love working with them. If I didn't enjoy selling coins I would not do it.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Eric K

[+kehunt64]

 

~~SNIP~~

 

Now while I am at it I want to bring up artwork for customers who want coins done. I can think of another thread (vendor/designer now gone) where they took money for designs and didn't produce them well it works the other way also. I have and I'm sure other vendors have also been on the receiving end of 'please draw me this/please draw me that" I want a coin minted. Well the majority of the customers in this case got their drawings/changes/ etc. and never paid a dime. Again, these are the things that venfors never bring up to the public and whine about. Time/effort go into these things and to turn around and walk away without so much as a word or let me pay you something. I'm just not getting why people would even think this is ok to do, right along with not paying for a reservation. It has been a huge disappoinment.

 

 

Wow Sephanie, I am sorry to hear that this has happened to you, shame on the people who have done this to you. You are a very talented designer and I love your work. I hope you do not stop helping people design coins, because as I have mentioned to you in the past, when I get ready to do a coin I would like your help. I can't imagine asking you for your help and not paying for your services. I would have no problem paying you upfront. As a vendor you go out of your way for your customers and I would trust you with a prepayment anytime Please don't stop offering your design services, and let these few bad apples spoil it for those of us who will pay you for your talented artistic help. ~Karen

[ATMouse]

I'm notoriously slow at paying bills and sending stuff in the mail. I don't think I've been to a post office since before Christmas 2007. Largely for this reason, I've avoided the whole geocoin subscription and mailing craze. I just *know* I would let people down, and I don't want to do that. This same personality trait is also what has kept me from producing my own geocoin. I don't want to be the subject of a forum thread, either as a buyer or as a seller.

 

I think payment problems ought to be resolved between seller and buyer privately. The seller (particularly the established, regular vendor) does have one effective remedy: after a bad experience, don't sell to that customer again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

Though I am a lawyer, the prior paragraph should not be construed as legal advice. It is just my personal opinion. If you'd like my legal opinion, it's $250 per hour.

 

[+AtwellFamily]

Alright, I'm ready to post a lengthy response Quit reading now if you don't normally like my postings

 

In the 2 years I've been here doing this, I have found that I have had to change the way I do things because of few bad apples. There are a number of customers who seem to think that the vendors should put up with everything that comes their way because they are a business and 'that's just the risks' they should be willing to take. Well I'll tell you what (oops wanting to go off topic here ). Anyhow, I don't think there needs to be a public list per say but maybe a list available to vendors when it comes to reservations. Although reservations aren't done much these days (even I quit doing them because it became too much of a hassle).

 

Instead of debating each post I'm just going to say what I think (agree with it or not). Reservations are not just based on an honor system, most of us have some sort of wording that comes along with the reservations. "You have 3 days to pay upon being invoiced or you order will be..." it's different for each vendor. When you sign up for a reservation you have agreed to to the terms of the reservation set forth by the vendor at the time of the reservation. You are telling the vendor "I would like you to purchase 5 coins on my behalf" with the understanding that I will pay you back for said coins upon receiving the invoice.

 

Now you may sit there and think no big deal, what's an order or two to the vendor? Well, when it comes to coin orders, it really ticks me off when 1 person orders 9 coins (true story and a vendor at that) and then doesn't pay. Now add in the (on average) 5 other people who ordered more than 2 of each version and then didn't pay. I've just forked over a chunk of change to buy your coins for you and then you don't have the common courtesy to reply back to me and explain why you aren't paying after I have invoiced and emailed you in ever possible way. Then as a vendor you are expected to estimate the amount of coins you should have left over to cover damages, lost, etc. coins. Well that adds to the cost of it all too. Then when you are left with a bunch of extras because of nonpayers, it's a waste. Now you can argue well you can trade them or keep them up for sale and my reply to that is, I shouldn't have to do that and if I wanted extra for sale I would order them and I've got enough traders or I don't want to trade. A reservation is for the convenience of the customer it is nothing but a huge pain in the arse for the vendor (it is enormously time consuming to do a reservation).

 

Maybe people don't give a crap because it doesn't affect them but I hope for those of you who ever have the inclination of ever having a reservation for a coin are handed the lesson back. Then maybe you'll think differently about how you handled not paying for your coins.

 

To those who suggested partial payment; well that is kinda like a presale method although at least a vendor can revcover some of the cost on the non-paid coins. But you are still open to having your paypal account locked for taking money and not delivering a coin on time because some payment was taken.

 

Customers want what they want, when they want it and how they want it (I am a customer also) but customers need to be good on their word because a customers actions also are cause for vendors to quit extending courtesies. I've had to stop myself because I personally can't afford to take the risks and I don't want to. Nor does any vendor.

 

So back to the list, does the public need to see it? Probably not, it's best shared between vendors if it gets to that point but I'm not sure there are enough doing reservations anymore. One suggestion I have for a vendor (if you can't pay for a coin when you reserve it, you can't buy a coin when they go up for sale down the road...)

 

I think that people tend to only see the coins for sale and not all the time, money and work that minting just 1 design requires. If people really understood this they would be less apt to complain or not pay for coins when invoiced.

 

Think and plan ahead before you get carried away with ordering a coin, your actions coupled with the actions of others adds up. Honesty, trust, respect, honor system is a 2 way street. Treat others they way you would like to be treated. Abuse this system and you wreck it for everyone involved. I've watched almost every vendor at one point or another get raked over the coals for issues and if you have paid attention over the months/years, most of them don't come here anymore, don't participate in the threads as much because what fun is it when everyone expects you to do their bidding yet when something doesn't go perfectly you're in line to chew someone out?

 

Now don't get me wrong, the majority of customers are A-OK in my book and there isn't a problem and I personally wouldn't hesitate to do what I could for mine but it's a small handful that ruin it for everyone and each time it chips away at what the vendor is willing to do for a customer as far as risk goes.

 

Now while I am at it I want to bring up artwork for customers who want coins done. I can think of another thread (vendor/designer now gone) where they took money for designs and didn't produce them well it works the other way also. I have and I'm sure other vendors have also been on the receiving end of 'please draw me this/please draw me that" I want a coin minted. Well the majority of the customers in this case got their drawings/changes/ etc. and never paid a dime. Again, these are the things that venfors never bring up to the public and whine about. Time/effort go into these things and to turn around and walk away without so much as a word or let me pay you something. I'm just not getting why people would even think this is ok to do, right along with not paying for a reservation. It has been a huge disappoinment.

 

I could go on and on, lol but half of ya quit reading already Common courtesy is all it is, if you can't plan 3 weeks ahead or you got carried away, pay for your coin and then take it as a lesson learned, don't make the vendor pay for your actions because the end result ends up being all customers lose out on an option. If you are in a bind, write the vendor and let them know, most understand.

 

Whew, I think I'm done and I kept it short

That was more the 10 cents...more like $10.

[+AtwellFamily]

Had to tell someone!!!!

 

I invoices someone for the "In the Mood for Caching" coin and they rejected the invoice in paypal. I then sent an emails asking why (I think I included a copy of the order email). No response. I found that kind of weird, but it gets better. The person just placed another reservation for one of my upcomming coins. WOW!

 

Let them know I couldn't honor the reservation until the first coin was paid for. I again received no response. These are the people that drive me nuts!

[+TeamEccs21]

I'm thinking that even if these people don't get outed in this forum, that the vendors are smart enough to track the deadbeats and possibly even have a list that they might already be sharing

[+Rockin Roddy]

Had to tell someone!!!!

 

I invoices someone for the "In the Mood for Caching" coin and they rejected the invoice in paypal. I then sent an emails asking why (I think I included a copy of the order email). No response. I found that kind of weird, but it gets better. The person just placed another reservation for one of my upcomming coins. WOW!

 

Let them know I couldn't honor the reservation until the first coin was paid for. I again received no response. These are the people that drive me nuts!

 

I agree this is a bad practice on the part of the buyer, but not letting them buy an upcoming coin might not be in your best interest either. I understand the problem with them dismissing the order, but as was said before, sometimes minds are changed or the coin looks different than they thought or whatever.

 

I also agree that the buyer should at least have answered your email asking why, but maybe you should have honored the new order, only make them pay up front and list their previous dismissal as reason? Just a thought and I realize it's none of my business really.

[+AtwellFamily]

Had to tell someone!!!!

 

I invoices someone for the "In the Mood for Caching" coin and they rejected the invoice in paypal. I then sent an emails asking why (I think I included a copy of the order email). No response. I found that kind of weird, but it gets better. The person just placed another reservation for one of my upcomming coins. WOW!

 

Let them know I couldn't honor the reservation until the first coin was paid for. I again received no response. These are the people that drive me nuts!

 

I agree this is a bad practice on the part of the buyer, but not letting them buy an upcoming coin might not be in your best interest either. I understand the problem with them dismissing the order, but as was said before, sometimes minds are changed or the coin looks different than they thought or whatever.

 

I also agree that the buyer should at least have answered your email asking why, but maybe you should have honored the new order, only make them pay up front and list their previous dismissal as reason? Just a thought and I realize it's none of my business really.

I told them I would not honor their old order until I received a response to the email or payment for the old order. I think this is one of those shame on the customer for cancelling and not saying anything. Shame on me if I let them do it to me twice.

[+Renegade Knight]

Had to tell someone!!!!

 

I invoices someone for the "In the Mood for Caching" coin and they rejected the invoice in paypal. I then sent an emails asking why (I think I included a copy of the order email). No response. I found that kind of weird, but it gets better. The person just placed another reservation for one of my upcomming coins. WOW!

 

Let them know I couldn't honor the reservation until the first coin was paid for. I again received no response. These are the people that drive me nuts!

 

These are the kind of folks who return used underwear to the store and call it their right. Some of them even return them unwashed.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Had to tell someone!!!!

 

I invoices someone for the "In the Mood for Caching" coin and they rejected the invoice in paypal. I then sent an emails asking why (I think I included a copy of the order email). No response. I found that kind of weird, but it gets better. The person just placed another reservation for one of my upcomming coins. WOW!

 

Let them know I couldn't honor the reservation until the first coin was paid for. I again received no response. These are the people that drive me nuts!

 

I agree this is a bad practice on the part of the buyer, but not letting them buy an upcoming coin might not be in your best interest either. I understand the problem with them dismissing the order, but as was said before, sometimes minds are changed or the coin looks different than they thought or whatever.

 

I also agree that the buyer should at least have answered your email asking why, but maybe you should have honored the new order, only make them pay up front and list their previous dismissal as reason? Just a thought and I realize it's none of my business really.

I told them I would not honor their old order until I received a response to the email or payment for the old order. I think this is one of those shame on the customer for cancelling and not saying anything. Shame on me if I let them do it to me twice.

 

Then I agree totally with your reaction and applaud you! I think not answering is a bad practice by the buyer, not wanting the order is one thing, but not answering emails and requests is just rude.

 

I think a good answer to some of this problem might be to require a deposit for larger orders (as long as you don't run amuck of the paypal guidelines) and only allow x amount of dropped orders before requiring a deposit on orders for the smaller orders ( like 1-10 coins or something). I don't know, I might be out of my mind though!

[+Ambrosia]

I'm notoriously slow at paying bills and sending stuff in the mail. I don't think I've been to a post office since before Christmas 2007. Largely for this reason, I've avoided the whole geocoin subscription and mailing craze. I just *know* I would let people down, and I don't want to do that. This same personality trait is also what has kept me from producing my own geocoin. I don't want to be the subject of a forum thread, either as a buyer or as a seller.

 

I think payment problems ought to be resolved between seller and buyer privately. The seller (particularly the established, regular vendor) does have one effective remedy: after a bad experience, don't sell to that customer again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

Though I am a lawyer, the prior paragraph should not be construed as legal advice. It is just my personal opinion. If you'd like my legal opinion, it's $250 per hour.

 

Get off your lazy rear and get that coin made dadgumit!

 

Seriously, we are waiting, my friend! A good way around the late payment thing is to just pay upfront in your case, so GET TO IT!! At $250 an hour, you could pay for your coin in mere hours!!

 

I know I'm waiting "patiently" for you to get your personal made!! And I loved the ideas you shot at me at GCF!

 

Hear, hear!

[+AtwellFamily]

I think a good answer to some of this problem might be to require a deposit for larger orders (as long as you don't run amuck of the paypal guidelines) and only allow x amount of dropped orders before requiring a deposit on orders for the smaller orders ( like 1-10 coins or something). I don't know, I might be out of my mind though!

I am considering this. I have about 6-8 orders for more that 10 coins on some of my new reservations. 50% deposit doesn't seem unreasonable. Still mulling it over.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I think a good answer to some of this problem might be to require a deposit for larger orders (as long as you don't run amuck of the paypal guidelines) and only allow x amount of dropped orders before requiring a deposit on orders for the smaller orders ( like 1-10 coins or something). I don't know, I might be out of my mind though!

I am considering this. I have about 6-8 orders for more that 10 coins on some of my new reservations. 50% deposit doesn't seem unreasonable. Still mulling it over.

 

Just don't leave yourself open to paypal troubles in case of delays!!

[+River Cacher]

I remember some time ago posting a response or email to hold me some coins here on the forum.

I have never heard anything more and do not feel like digging through all my post and or emails to try and find out what one it was.

Did i ask someone to hold me some ?

Did i get a email sent to me ?

Did i lose a email ? I use Yahoo and it happens.

Do i forget things ? YES I DO

I hope i have not forgot any orders out there and i would hate to see my name put on a bad list and not know anything about it.

I do agree there is issues out there and something does need to be done and maybe the deposit would be a best thing.

Maybe putting money out would help the memory some.

Maybe it won't.

I do get Coins in the mail and then think wow i bought one of these. LOL

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Years ago I worked in hotels.

 

During the regular season, we took credit cards to guarantee your room. If you didn't show-up, we charged you. Most of the time, folks can dispute this charge - no signature and the credit card company will always find in favour of the buyer.

 

During ski season, we required a 100% deposit 60 days in advance.

 

What does this have to do with geocoins?

 

Well. The vendors need to decide. If they take reservations for a coin, they can request pre-payment, they can request a deposit, they can take the risk. It will depend on the vendor.

 

Customers can pre-pay or wait until the coin is minted.

 

Of course, the easiest solution is to not have limited edition coins. If coins were minted and then offered for sale, then re-minted as demand dictates, then I actually think the number of unique coins would decrease, but the quality of designs would increase.

 

Here's why.

 

If a vendor develops a compelling design and continues to remint coins in batches of 200-500 as demand dictates, then there would be "best sellers" - these would be the coins that satisfy demand for many cachers.

 

Stepping back. As the following:

Why do reservations even exist?

 

Do they exist because those that collect coins don't want to "miss" a coin? I think so.

Do they exist because a vendor doesn't want to "over-mint" a coin and not sell them? I also think so.

 

The second reason is a bit of a problem for me. After all, if you don't believe your commercial design is good enough to sell 200-300 copies - why are you making it?

 

Conversely, why should cachers or vendors stop production on a quality design? If it turns out your design is so good that everyone wants one - then mint and re-mint and mint again!

 

This would have the extra bonus of making the "rare" and "cool" designs less of a target for coin thieves taken them out of cache circulation.

 

It also protects everyone. Cachers don't risk money on a coin that doesn't exist yet. Vendors don't risk the lost opportunity to remint their "hit" coins. Hit coins offset the duds that only sell 25. The whole hobby is healthier as the focus will be on design over limited edition mentality.

 

End of rant.

[+tsunrisebey]

LFD a couple of comments.

 

I think ya went a little off topic, lol.

 

If you take pre-payments it isn't a reservation anymore it's a pre-sale.

 

You can see what has happened with pre-sales as of late.

 

Now have you ever had your paypal account locked up because you sold coins in a pre-sale? Let me tell you it's not a fun experience because it happened to me and I had just closed pre-sales. It took me 2 months and a heckuva lot of calls, leg-work and stress to get it unlocked and I never did 1 thing wrong. I'm keeping this short.

 

While what you have said makes sense and is very reasonable, the question is still the same. Reservations are currently an option for a vendor. A customer makes a reservation then they are responsible for their actions (in this case). It's not a question in this particular thread of what are the other options out there.

 

So what say you to a vendor and customer who allows for a reservation system and the customer doesn't keep up with their end of the agreement?

Edited December 13, 2008 by tsunrisebey

[+MustangJoni]

I'm really enjoying this thread. I've learned alot from the vendor perspective.

 

I do think ThirstyMick made an excellent point above, and I've been in the situation that she referenced. I reserved a coins (just 3) based on art. When they came back with sample pictures at invoice time, I didn't like it. I do think in that case, that a customer needs to communicate with the vendor if they choose to cancel (I ended up paying for them), but they should be allowed to cancel.

 

Now I just hold off on reservations based on art, because I don't want to feel like I have to buy coins that I'm not entirely happy with.

[+tsunrisebey]

I'm really enjoying this thread. I've learned alot from the vendor perspective.

 

I do think ThirstyMick made an excellent point above, and I've been in the situation that she referenced. I reserved a coins (just 3) based on art. When they came back with sample pictures at invoice time, I didn't like it. I do think in that case, that a customer needs to communicate with the vendor if they choose to cancel (I ended up paying for them), but they should be allowed to cancel.

 

Now I just hold off on reservations based on art, because I don't want to feel like I have to buy coins that I'm not entirely happy with.

 

Great point. Personally I don't understand reservations based only on artwork, most people have been here long enough to know that artwork and samples look so much different. Customers shouldn't make reservations based on mint artwork but on samples so you know exactly what you are getting that way there is no confusion or disappoinments for that matter. In that case the customer and the vendor share in the "liabilty".

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

So what say you to a vendor and customer who allows for a reservation system and the customer doesn't keep up with their end of the agreement?

 

Well, not much more to add except what I said before...if the buyer backs out once, let them know they were allowed this, but also let them know future dropping of orders will meet with loss of ability to pre-order. This would allow for dropped orders in the case of sudden unexpected money problems or such and would also make the buyer a bit more responsible with their ordering as well. People shouldn't just jump into a reservation merely on impulse, maybe this would slow people a bit and make them think about what they're ordering!

 

IF, (as in Mike's case mentioned above), no response to your email asking for a reason, they automatically lose order privilege and are told they'll just have to take their chances when the coin comes out!

 

As for LFD's comment, with the fickle market these days, it's nearly impossible to know what will be a hit and what won't, so going with minting 200-300 for every coin could be the end of many coiners.

[+Jackalgirl]

As for LFD's comment, with the fickle market these days, it's nearly impossible to know what will be a hit and what won't, so going with minting 200-300 for every coin could be the end of many coiners.

 

Agreed! I've just gotten into this and I'm seeing that it's hard to figure out how well something will sell -- especially if you're new and you don't have a reputation yet. Someone like YemonYime or Scavok, who are not only very good at what they do but have an excellent reputation for excellence? I think they could do this with no problem.

 

But one of the useful aspects of reservations is that you can gauge interest without having to actually deal with taking money (or returning it if it turns out there is not enough demand for the coin). For example, my Year of the Ox coin does not have any LE versions; Mike has put it up for reservations to gauge interest (and to see if there are enough people interest to justify minting 100 of them, which is the general mint minimum, much less the 250 needed in order to get an icon).

Edited December 14, 2008 by Jackalgirl

[+nielsenc]

Whatever happened to Vendors taking on a design, minting 100/250 to get name/icon and sell it to the general public up front? Why is it a vendor seems to be able to pull a design because the interest doesnt warrant doing it that is ok but when a customer doesnt pay for a 'reservation' that is bad?

 

For me, when I travel, most of my reservations are non-committal. Tickets on airlines, car reservations, hotel reservations etc. While some require to cancel, others do not.

 

From my read, a reservation of coins was to gauge interest in the coin and NOT to punish someone because 2 months later they decided they dont either like the coin or life worries have changed. Sometimes reservations are made with Artwork and the finish product doesnt look anything like the coin.

[+Ladybug Kids]

Having personally underwritten five GeocacheAlaska! related coin projects plus two others, I have the following observations:

 

1. Save yourself reservation angst and the need to create such a list. Preorders/reservations are a lot of extra work. No matter how one does it, each order has to be touched at least twice in this situation...on the front end when the reservation is placed and sending out an invoice when the coins are ready to ship. It's much, much simpler to have possession of the coins, put the sales page on the web, and process the orders and package the coins as they come in. There is no muss, no fuss that way. I took reservations for the 2005 Alaska coin and have not done it since due to all the extra work.

 

2. If one is worried about being stuck with a bunch of extra coins, state a "not to exceed" mintage, mint a smaller initial quantity, and set the price to break even on the smaller quantity. Anything after the initial minting is gravy.

 

3. If one is worried about being stuck with a bunch of extra coins, then perhaps one should reconsider minting the coin. Put some extra time into the idea and the final design and really work to produce a quality product. Quality products, even if priced higher due to smaller quantities over which fixed costs can be spread do sell well. Someone used "fickle" to describe the market...I think "discerning" may be a better word.

 

4. Since I front personal funds for the GeocacheAlaska! projects and then plow any net receipts into the organization, I use credit card float. I'll time production (and hence, payment to the mint) with the beginning of a credit card cycle, pay for the coins, receive the coins, sell the majority of the coins, and pay off the credit card with the PayPal receipts when the payment is due. It may be a lot easier for me to pull this off working with the mint in my city of residence, but it's also worked for me on projects I've worked on with another vendor.

 

5. Don't let a few folks ruin the fun.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Ladybug Kids