What to do if coins are not received on time

[+nielsenc]

It seems there are many people who are not getting the coins which are ordered. When a select few dont deliver coins to the customer, it hurts the honest companies and individuals. This thread is NOT to call out any individual or vendor but to help people who have not received their products to become 'whole'.

 

Since PayPal seems to be the payment method of choice, you should be aware of the policies to protect yourself. Here is the PayPal link which deals with Protection. According to PayPal, today you have 45 days to file a complaint. This is 15 days longer then the FTC gives businesses to ship a product. The FTC allows 30 days to ship a product or offer a full refund. It might be good to review the FTC site.

 

If you are unable to resolve your issue with the seller or PayPal, the FTC has a helpline. Before contacting the FTC, I would suggest contacting your credit card company if you used a credit card. They are sometimes willing to go to bat for you if there is a problem.

 

The FTC works for the consumer to prevent fraudulent, deceptive, and unfair practices in the marketplace and to provide information to businesses to help them comply with the law. To file a complaint or to get free information on consumer issues, visit ftc.gov or call toll-free, 1-877-FTC-HELP (1-877-382-4357); TTY: 1-866-653-4261. The FTC enters Internet, telemarketing, identity theft, and other fraud-related complaints into Consumer Sentinel, a secure online database available to hundreds of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies in the U.S. and abroad.

 

There is also a FTC Complaint site where you can submit a complaint. Be sure to followup with the seller and PayPal first as you dont want to overload them with items like refunds which can happen from PayPal.

 

In the end, until an individual or company goes bankrupt, they are still on the 'hook' for either getting you the product or returning your money.

 

Any other suggestions?

[+Eric K]

I agree with Nielsenc that these practices have hurt the vendors that are legitimate and have not had any issues.

 

I fear that new users come in and see a bunch of threads about people getting ripped off so may be hesitant to buy from anyone.

 

I would suggest that if you make a pre-payment after 30 days contact the seller saying to either deliver the product or issue you a refund so that if they don't do either you can file a claim with Paypal within the allotted time.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Eric K

[+kehunt64]

Complaints can be filed online at:

 

Better Business Bureau

USPS website under "Mail Fraud" then select "Didn't Get What I Ordered"

Internet Crime Complaint Center at www.ic3.gov

 

As for Paypal, IF you paid with a credit card and it is past 45 days the best thing to do is to contact your credit card company. Explain that you never received your items, and if you are still within your credit card company's time line, they will get your money back for you. They will take your money back from Paypal Merchant Bank through a "chargeback", and then it is up to Paypal to deal with the vendor. Paypal Merchant Bank then takes the funds back from Paypal. Then Paypal freezes the amount from the vendor's account. If the vendor can prove they mailed the items, Paypal unfreezes the funds. If the vendor cannot prove that they mailed the items Paypal takes the money from their account. Paypal told me that they have a team of lawyers that deal daily with companies that don't delivery merchandise.

 

In my case, my credit card company gives its customers 6 months to file for a chargeback. This probably varies for some credit card companies.

Edited December 3, 2008 by kehunt64

[+Ladybug Kids]

Thanks for all the great information!

 

I see the above as "last resort" steps after reasonable attempts have been made to rectify the situation. I've made honest shipping mistakes (missed order, incorrect order, etc.) on each of the coin projects I've coordinated and certainly appreciated hearing about it directly from the purchaser first.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Ladybug Kids

[+Wandering Vikings]

 

I would suggest that if you make a pre-payment after 30 days contact the seller saying to either deliver the product or issue you a refund so that if they don't do either you can file a claim with Paypal within the allotted time.

 

Thanks for all the great information!

 

I see the above as "last resort" steps after reasonable attempts have been made to rectify the situation.

 

Agreed with all previous posters so far!

 

As a vendor I would reiterate that the couple horrible issues going on right now are not the 'norm'. Most companies here are honest, strive to do their best and will respond right away if you have any questions or issues.

 

Give the company a good faith chance to resolve the issue first, then I say move on to with whatever means necissary to recover your money or product! Too many people have been just writing off their losses instead of aggressively pursuing restitution and it has allowed some unscrupulous vendors to feel like they can get away with fraudulent business practices.

[+Wandering Vikings]

(snip)Too many people have been just writing off their losses instead of aggressively pursuing restitution and it has allowed some unscrupulous vendors to feel like they can get away with fraudulent business practices.

After rereading this through I just wanted to clarify-

I am not in ANY way saying that the purchasers hold any responsibility here (it kinda sounded that way and that is not my intent!).

Just commenting that up to this point there hasn't seemed to be any consequences for the bad behavior of the few unscrupulous vendors.

 

Sorry- wanted to clarify before anyone gets the wrong impression!

[+Butterfly_lady]

I had a lovely response today from a trader.

Coins had not arrived.

I queried it, and he immediately send he would send replacements.

Way to go...

 

And yes, I am still waiting on another seller, and one trade (given up on that trade almost) Miracles happen though.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

It's always important for seller and buyer to agree what "on-time" is. For retailers it should be very quick - ship after the order is received.

 

It's a little harder for groups and pre-sales. The key here is to ensure constant dialogue. I've only ever sold two coins here and in both cases the announcement to delivery time was more than a few weeks! However, in both cases there were constant updates, status reports, and the like.

 

The time you need to worry is when there is no new news or no response to your queries. Coins can take 3-5 weeks to go from idea to physical reality, and then they take whatever time the postal system takes to deliver them.

 

Of course, one solution is to never buy pre-sales. That would eliminate the 3-5 idea to coin time. Of course, that might stop some coins for groups even progressing off the idea stage (which might not be a bad thing either).

 

Something we probably need to remember is that 90% or more of all coin sales go well. You need to ensure you are buying from folks that you know or are known.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

Frozen browser double-post o rama!

Edited December 3, 2008 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+LadeBear68]

I agree with Nielsenc that these practices have hurt the vendors that are legitimate and have not had any issues.

 

I fear that new users come in and see a bunch of threads about people getting ripped off so may be hesitant to buy from anyone.

 

I would suggest that if you make a pre-payment after 30 days contact the seller saying to either deliver the product or issue you a refund so that if they don't do either you can file a claim with Paypal within the allotted time.

 

I would agree with you. If people don't get their coins within 30 days they need to file a paypal complaint against the vendor. Too bad that the company didn't make the coins in time or didn't send them in time. Enough is enough. But if you look at the history of the geocoin community they want to give x company the benefit of the doubt and just keep writing emails and waiting. I would propose no more waiting, if the loss is on the vendor, too bad. If you don't have the money to make a coin up front perhaps you shouldn't be making one.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

 

I would agree with you. If people don't get their coins within 30 days they need to file a paypal complaint against the vendor. Too bad that the company didn't make the coins in time or didn't send them in time. Enough is enough. But if you look at the history of the geocoin community they want to give x company the benefit of the doubt and just keep writing emails and waiting. I would propose no more waiting, if the loss is on the vendor, too bad. If you don't have the money to make a coin up front perhaps you shouldn't be making one.

 

Again - just to play Devil's Advocate

 

When you agree to a pre-order purchase - adjust expectations on time-frames.

 

If you can't wait for a coin to be made, if you are worried about the seller in any way - then don't pre-order it. You need to have realistic expectations about what you are buying BEFORE you buy it. It is naive to think that when you buy a "picture" you are going to have a coin in less than 20-24 mailing days or 30 days.

 

There are many cases where a coin is offered for sale on a pre-ordered basis - for several reasons. In some cases, you might need to do some research. Especially on a personal coin or a coin that some person just designs and has nothing but a sketch of. You're buy "air" until it is a physical item. I once had someone win an eBay auction and then start sending me e-mails asking why they didn't have it - 4 DAYS after the auction closed. That's extreme, but unlike the internet, the postal service takes a little more than that to deliver a package.

 

There's certainly a seller obligation that I hope people take seriously - but there is also a responsibility on the part of the buyer to be wary of whom they are buying from.

 

The policies of PayPal are really designed for the sale of goods and services that take place in real time. This doesn't work for pre-order items very well. In fact, it's actually not what PayPal is supposed to be for.

 

At any rate - we are all, to some extent, victims of our own making. We are obsessed with "getting the coin" and not "missing" it - that we can fall prey to those with poor ethics. For that, I am sad. The safest route is to buy coins that are already minted from business' that have been around for awhile.

 

ADD: Of course, none of the above applies to poor vendors. I haven't been here awhile and I assume that some vendors have closed shop and left folks hight and dry? That's always a bummer.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+LadeBear68]

"The safest route is to buy coins that are already minted from business' that have been around for awhile."

 

What is interesting about this statement is that both vendors people are having problems with right now is that both vendors delivered several other coins without problems before the misappropriation of money.

 

I agree buyer beware but I think that the only way to safeguard yourself from losing money is to file for a refund within 45 days and not give the vendor the benefit. And don't adjust your expectations, which is exactly the problem in the instant cases. The vendors keep saying that the product was delayed by the mint and from what I see in one case the mint never had the coin. If the vendor has to issue a refund within the 45 days and the coin comes in, he/she can sell the coin than.

Edited December 4, 2008 by LadeBear68

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

"The safest route is to buy coins that are already minted from business' that have been around for awhile."

 

What is interesting about this statement is that both vendors people are having problems with right now is that both vendors delivered several other coins without problems before the misappropriation of money.

 

I agree buyer beware but I think that the only way to safeguard yourself from losing money is to file for a refund within 45 days and not give the vendor the benefit. And don't adjust your expectations, which is exactly the problem in the instant cases. The vendors keep saying that the product was delayed by the mint and from what I see in one case the mint never had the coin. If the vendor has to issue a refund within the 45 days and the coin comes in, he/she can sell the coin than.

 

That's my ignorance of the scenario then.

 

When a vendor fails to deliver - it's a little different. If someone decides to become a geocoin vendor, then they are running a business. They should have enough working capital to mint coins and THEN offer them for sale. I'd be wary of ANY business that needs the money "up-front".

 

My comments were more geared towards individuals and geocaching organizations that are not representing themselves as commercial enterprises.

 

(I think my edit must have crossed your post in the cyber-sphere)

[+DJ.J.ROCK]

YOU COULD ALL WAYS FLIP OUT AND WEAR THE OPPISITE SEX CLOTHS,,AND GO POSTAL TILL YOU GET YOUR COINS,,,,,BUT I SEE YOU DECIDED TO HANDLE IT BETTER THEN I WOULD,,,LOL,,

[+joefrog]

YOU COULD ALL WAYS FLIP OUT AND WEAR THE OPPISITE SEX CLOTHS,,AND GO POSTAL TILL YOU GET YOUR COINS,,,,,BUT I SEE YOU DECIDED TO HANDLE IT BETTER THEN I WOULD,,,LOL,,