Log Deletion?

[+Criminal]

How would others handle this?

At the risk of being put in time out again.....

 

If someone deleted my legitimate log I would seriously consider deleting their cache. No, it's not nice or friendly, but neither is deleting a log.

[Dinoprophet]

The cache in question is very popular and very old. Who would be hurt by destroying it?

[+J-Way]

I really do not NEED a smilie THAT BAD. However, I DO need this cache as part of a challenge cache. How would others handle this?

Now that we've established that there was prior bad blood between the OP and the CO (conveniently omitted in the OP), and that some people think the deleted logs might be seen as "rude", and the deleting valid Found It logs because of personal grudges is a despicable act worthy of a "Ignore All Caches by Owner" button, we still haven't established exactly why the OP needs to log this cache.

 

What type of challenge cache absolutely requires you to log this one? Unless it's a Delorme or County challenge where this is the ONLY cache available, or maybe a mystery/unknown challenge that requires finding a few other specific caches, I can't think of a Challenge where you HAVE to find this one.

 

Just curious.

 

Have you considered emailing the owner to ask what type of log would be acceptable, or are you too busy helping your friends abuse children? Incidentally, I took my 3-year old on a run for a few 5-star terrain caches. It required a trip to the doctor for a steroid shot for poison ivy. I'd probably get arrested in Illinois.

[Mr.Yuck]

I really do not NEED a smilie THAT BAD. However, I DO need this cache as part of a challenge cache. How would others handle this?

Now that we've established that there was prior bad blood between the OP and the CO (conveniently omitted in the OP), and that some people think the deleted logs might be seen as "rude", and the deleting valid Found It logs because of personal grudges is a despicable act worthy of a "Ignore All Caches by Owner" button, we still haven't established exactly why the OP needs to log this cache.

 

What type of challenge cache absolutely requires you to log this one? Unless it's a Delorme or County challenge where this is the ONLY cache available, or maybe a mystery/unknown challenge that requires finding a few other specific caches, I can't think of a Challenge where you HAVE to find this one.

 

Just curious.

 

Have you considered emailing the owner to ask what type of log would be acceptable, or are you too busy helping your friends abuse children? Incidentally, I took my 3-year old on a run for a few 5-star terrain caches. It required a trip to the doctor for a steroid shot for poison ivy. I'd probably get arrested in Illinois.

 

Snooping around the bookmark list provided by Dinoprophet, I'll bet it's the GONIL 9 County challenge True, the OP probably doesn't have to have it, but it's possible there are no other options available.

[Skippermark]

So why not offer up the other side of the story as requested? We only come here for the drama anyway.

This story is dramatic but in a confusing soap opera type way. I'm kind of having a hard time following who all the cast members are now.

[+Grigorii Rasputin]

Try adding some details to your log.

Go ahead....give a little.

Let the cache owner bask in his power...

Let him feel like he has power over you.

Let him have some small bit of satisfaction that he controls the entire web page for that cache.

 

ps - Next time you are on a trail and pass another of his caches....feel free to toss it off the hillside.

 

heeeeee heeeeeeee heeeeeeeeee !!!!!

[+briansnat]

Here's my thought, though: personal issues between a cache hider and a cache logger should be irrelevant. If a person I absolutely loathe* finds my cache and logs it properly, then it has been logged. If I mean a cache to only be found by certain people, I will email them the coordinates and not publish the cache on geocaching.com in the first place.

 

That's my feeling as well. Deleting legit found it logs is petty and juvenile.

[Neos2]

Still though, why wouldn't a cache owner appreciate the fact that someone took the time to clean up trash around their cache. The first log "cleaned out the area" may have been a little curt, but subsequent logs of "found cache" are valid logs on a valid find with no reason to delete. Still sounds like there is a personal beef between the two parties, and that the logs were deleted as a matter of revenge on the OP, as in, "I don't like you, so I'm going to delete your log and there's nothing you can do about it." I still say the OP has a legitimate claim to Groundspeak for erroneous deletion.

I took 'cleaned out the area' to mean that the cacher found all the caches in the area. From the POV of the owner, this could mean 'I really didn't care to find your stinky old cache, but I HAD to in order to clean out the area.'

I also took it to mean the cacher had finished all the caches in that area during that day's run.

 

If I were the cache owner, I wouldn't read any more into it than that.

 

We still don't know why the cache owner deleted the log. It could be they would delete any log, no matter how it was written, by that cacher. No matter how many people were with them that day, no matter how many times they signed the log.

 

I'd also like to know why the OP needs that particular cache. I understand it is "for a challenge" but that doesn't explain if it is just the nearest cache that will meet some requirement or the only cache that will meet some requirement of a particular challenge.

[+sbell111]

Still though, why wouldn't a cache owner appreciate the fact that someone took the time to clean up trash around their cache. The first log "cleaned out the area" may have been a little curt, but subsequent logs of "found cache" are valid logs on a valid find with no reason to delete. Still sounds like there is a personal beef between the two parties, and that the logs were deleted as a matter of revenge on the OP, as in, "I don't like you, so I'm going to delete your log and there's nothing you can do about it." I still say the OP has a legitimate claim to Groundspeak for erroneous deletion.

I took 'cleaned out the area' to mean that the cacher found all the caches in the area. From the POV of the owner, this could mean 'I really didn't care to find your stinky old cache, but I HAD to in order to clean out the area.'

I also took it to mean the cacher had finished all the caches in that area during that day's run.

 

If I were the cache owner, I wouldn't read any more into it than that.

I think nearly everyone would agree with this if a random geocacher left the log. However, many would read more into it if there was some previous bad blood between the two, as in this case.

[+Rockin Roddy]

How would others handle this?

At the risk of being put in time out again.....

 

If someone deleted my legitimate log I would seriously consider deleting their cache. No, it's not nice or friendly, but neither is deleting a log.

 

Haven't we seen this response from you before? "Deleting" a cache is far different from deleting a log, the log deletion does NOT cost the logger anything where deleting a cache (a nicer way to say STEALING???) is against the law and costs the CO and anyone who goes to find the cache, not knowing someone who's been "robbed" of a smilie took revenge in a much more drastic (and sad) way!

 

I can't imagine why you were banned...

[CoyoteRed]

"Deleting" a cache is far different from deleting a log, the log deletion does NOT cost the logger anything where deleting a cache (a nicer way to say STEALING???) is against the law and costs the CO and anyone who goes to find the cache, not knowing someone who's been "robbed" of a smilie took revenge in a much more drastic (and sad) way!

I kinda think Criminal just has the, um, "stuff" to actually speak out loud the thoughts that some folks are thinking privately.

 

This hobby is only possible by the good graces of others. It almost forces us to be polite to each other, especially a cache owner's ability to delete a log on a whim. That certainly has made logs something less than completely honest just out of fear it might not stay. These forums have plenty of examples along the same line as this very thread.

 

Here's the thing: a cache is just as vulnerable. There is very little one can do to protect a cache from being muggled by another cacher. After all, the whole idea is for folks to be able to find it, to be able to get inside and sign the log. Most of the time there is few, if any, people around to observe the cacher. It would take literally only seconds for a determined cachers bent on removing a cache to make it disappear. Think about it. Unless you check on a cache right before and then right after a visit, you'd never know who took it. Otherwise you could be casually watching them search for the cache, you avert your eyes for a few seconds, and then go back to watching them. They give up and walk away. You go and talk to them and they say they couldn't find it. You go check on it and it's gone. Did they take it or was it already gone? Is it in their pack as they walk away?

 

Anyone who remembers the pirates of a few years ago would know how difficult it is to protect a cache.

 

So here's the next thing: a cache owner can deny a finder a log on a whim. It's not the cacher owner's log to deny or confirm, but it's the only tool Groundspeak has given us to keep the logs moderated. It's a very blunt tool. There is little a log writer can do to force an owner to leave a legitimate log alone. Of course, they could go off and tattle to TPTB and hope they do something about it.

 

...or they can take matters into their own hands and remind the cacher owner what is more vulnerable: the log or the cache.

 

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

[+Rockin Roddy]

"Deleting" a cache is far different from deleting a log, the log deletion does NOT cost the logger anything where deleting a cache (a nicer way to say STEALING???) is against the law and costs the CO and anyone who goes to find the cache, not knowing someone who's been "robbed" of a smilie took revenge in a much more drastic (and sad) way!

I kinda think Criminal just has the, um, "stuff" to actually speak out loud the thoughts that some folks are thinking privately.

 

This hobby is only possible by the good graces of others. It almost forces us to be polite to each other, especially a cache owner's ability to delete a log on a whim. That certainly has made logs something less than completely honest just out of fear it might not stay. These forums have plenty of examples along the same line as this very thread.

 

Here's the thing: a cache is just as vulnerable. There is very little one can do to protect a cache from being muggled by another cacher. After all, the whole idea is for folks to be able to find it, to be able to get inside and sign the log. Most of the time there is few, if any, people around to observe the cacher. It would take literally only seconds for a determined cachers bent on removing a cache to make it disappear. Think about it. Unless you check on a cache right before and then right after a visit, you'd never know who took it. Otherwise you could be casually watching them search for the cache, you avert your eyes for a few seconds, and then go back to watching them. They give up and walk away. You go and talk to them and they say they couldn't find it. You go check on it and it's gone. Did they take it or was it already gone? Is it in their pack as they walk away?

 

Anyone who remembers the pirates of a few years ago would know how difficult it is to protect a cache.

 

So here's the next thing: a cache owner can deny a finder a log on a whim. It's not the cacher owner's log to deny or confirm, but it's the only tool Groundspeak has given us to keep the logs moderated. It's a very blunt tool. There is little a log writer can do to force an owner to leave a legitimate log alone. Of course, they could go off and tattle to TPTB and hope they do something about it.

 

...or they can take matters into their own hands and remind the cacher owner what is more vulnerable: the log or the cache.

 

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

 

I agree that protecting a cache is hard and knowing who took one is even more difficult, but when someone suggests such an action, the first person I'll suspect will be him. I believe this is the same mindset as most LEO (someone mentions "I'd like to see you dead" and they're instant suspects if this happens).

 

I think what bothers me is the poster wants you to consider theft over a simple log deletion. Simply ignore as you suggest and live your life! A smilie isn't worth breaking the law (or advocation thereof)... I myself wouldn't even think to steal a cache (or kick it of the cliff or whatever other suggestion was thrown out there) because my log was deleted. It won't make me happy, but I'll not let their action turn me into a lesser person!

[Mushtang]

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

Would it have changed things if the ignore button had existed a few years ago?

[CoyoteRed]

...but I'll not let their action turn me into a lesser person!

Well said.

[CoyoteRed]

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

Would it have changed things if the ignore button had existed a few years ago?

...or folks didn't place caches irresponsibly or vandalize private property.

 

Oh, wait. Same cache.

 

Removing an illegal, archived cache whose owner lives in another state is not the same as taking a cache because you got mad your log got deleted. Just to point out the painfully obvious.

[Dinoprophet]

<snip>

So here's the next thing: a cache owner can deny a finder a log on a whim. It's not the cacher owner's log to deny or confirm, but it's the only tool Groundspeak has given us to keep the logs moderated. It's a very blunt tool. There is little a log writer can do to force an owner to leave a legitimate log alone. Of course, they could go off and tattle to TPTB and hope they do something about it.

 

...or they can take matters into their own hands and remind the cacher owner what is more vulnerable: the log or the cache.

 

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

You use "tattle" there as though that's a childish thing to do. Maybe it is. But saying "If I can't have it, no one can" and depriving the caching community of a cache is equally or more so.

[Mr.Yuck]

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

Would it have changed things if the ignore button had existed a few years ago?

 

I think it did by a couple of months (February 2005). But it was a very new feature, probably in Beta. Probably didn't work too well yet.

 

Oh, I was posting the same time as CR. I think that's a perfectly good explanation for a cache that was already archived.

Edited December 2, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel

[Mushtang]

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

Would it have changed things if the ignore button had existed a few years ago?

...or folks didn't place caches irresponsibly or vandalize private property.

 

Oh, wait. Same cache.

 

Removing an illegal, archived cache whose owner lives in another state is not the same as taking a cache because you got mad your log got deleted. Just to point out the painfully obvious.

According to the cache owner it wasn't something you should have done. You didn't know the entire story, TPTB were asking the owner for details about the hide and giving him a chance to explain if it was valid or not. Maybe the hole was already there and he had proof, maybe he had some other explanation, who knows? Before he responded someone decided to act like the cache police and steal the cache to "fix" the situation from their point of view. From his reply it doesn't sound like theft of his cache was the direction he wanted that to go.

 

Stealing someone's cache because you make yourself the judge and jury and decide that it needs to be removed is just as bad as stealing a cache because you don't like something else they did, like deleting a log. Just to point out the painfully obvious.

 

So when you try and say it's not something you do, I call a BS and say that it is. Nice try though.

[CoyoteRed]

So when you try and say it's not something you do, I call a BS and say that it is. Nice try though.

I call BS on you. You've been in on they very same subject several times and know the background. Yet, you keep bringing it up. What, you think the new people will buy into your BS?

 

It's pretty sad that you're relying on people to buy your assertion that removing an illegal placement, especially during those times, is the same as stealing a cache because the owner deleted a log.

[Mushtang]

So when you try and say it's not something you do, I call a BS and say that it is. Nice try though.

I call BS on you. You've been in on they very same subject several times and know the background. Yet, you keep bringing it up. What, you think the new people will buy into your BS?

 

It's pretty sad that you're relying on people to buy your assertion that removing an illegal placement, especially during those times, is the same as stealing a cache because the owner deleted a log.

That's not my assertion at all. My point is that you, Coyotered, DO in fact have a history of stealing caches that you don't want to exist. You've done it. You can talk all you want about the fact that you were under the impression that it was an illegally placed cache, but the truth is you didn't know for sure. It wasn't your cache. Nobody asked you to remove it. TBTP asked the owner to deal with it and you didn't think he was stepping up to make it right fast enough, so you stole property that didn't belong to you. You stole a cache simply because you didn't like it. TPTB had offered to unarchive the cache if the owner could give information that would clear the matter up, and as far as I know he was either going to provide the information, alter the cache so it wasn't an issue, or go get the cache himself. But Coyotered stole his cache before he did either of those things, simply because Coyotered decided it needed to go, and removed the possibility that TPTB could unarchive it once it was corrected if that's what the owner wanted to try.

 

No, you're right, it's not the same as stealing a cache because a log was deleted, but it is stealing a cache. I apologize, I misunderstood your claim earlier of not doing it or advocating it, I thought you just meant stealing caches. Now I realize you meant stealing caches because a log got deleted. Now I know what you meant, and I'm sorry if I accused you of stealing a cache because a log was deleted.

 

It's clear that you only advocate stealing caches for other reasons, and I won't assume what those reasons are to avoid another false accusation.

 

But please, if you haven't done so already, please put all my caches on your ignore list on the off chance you ever make it to the metro Atlanta area. I'd prefer you not even see them just in case they fit within your acceptable reasons to steal a cache.

[+Rockin Roddy]

So when you try and say it's not something you do, I call a BS and say that it is. Nice try though.

I call BS on you. You've been in on they very same subject several times and know the background. Yet, you keep bringing it up. What, you think the new people will buy into your BS?

 

It's pretty sad that you're relying on people to buy your assertion that removing an illegal placement, especially during those times, is the same as stealing a cache because the owner deleted a log.

That's not my assertion at all. My point is that you, Coyotered, DO in fact have a history of stealing caches that you don't want to exist. You've done it. You can talk all you want about the fact that you were under the impression that it was an illegally placed cache, but the truth is you didn't know for sure. It wasn't your cache. Nobody asked you to remove it. TBTP asked the owner to deal with it and you didn't think he was stepping up to make it right fast enough, so you stole property that didn't belong to you. You stole a cache simply because you didn't like it. TPTB had offered to unarchive the cache if the owner could give information that would clear the matter up, and as far as I know he was either going to provide the information, alter the cache so it wasn't an issue, or go get the cache himself. But Coyotered stole his cache before he did either of those things, simply because Coyotered decided it needed to go, and removed the possibility that TPTB could unarchive it once it was corrected if that's what the owner wanted to try.

 

No, you're right, it's not the same as stealing a cache because a log was deleted, but it is stealing a cache. I apologize, I misunderstood your claim earlier of not doing it or advocating it, I thought you just meant stealing caches. Now I realize you meant stealing caches because a log got deleted. Now I know what you meant, and I'm sorry if I accused you of stealing a cache because a log was deleted.

 

It's clear that you only advocate stealing caches for other reasons, and I won't assume what those reasons are to avoid another false accusation.

 

But please, if you haven't done so already, please put all my caches on your ignore list on the off chance you ever make it to the metro Atlanta area. I'd prefer you not even see them just in case they fit within your acceptable reasons to steal a cache.

 

Geez guys, let's play nicely here! It's obvious to me CoyoteRed had good intentions, but could have handled it differently. It also seems obvious to me you don't approve Mushtang. BUT, I think this thread is about log deletion, so please stop your bickering and let's all be nice!

 

Water under the bridge, let it go! Life's too short!

[CoyoteRed]

It's clear that you only advocate stealing caches for other reasons, and I won't assume what those reasons are to avoid another false accusation.

Careful where you step. TPTB themselves used to tell other cachers to remove caches. These caches were not theirs to remove. By your definition you are accusing Groundspeak of stealing caches by proxy and those cachers who removed said caches, as well.

 

Additionally, CITOing out geotrash must be stealing in your book, too.

 

But please, if you haven't done so already, please put all my caches on your ignore list on the off chance you ever make it to the metro Atlanta area. I'd prefer you not even see them just in case they fit within your acceptable reasons to steal a cache.

Why don't you do the same with my posts?

 

...and

My point is that you, Coyotered, DO in fact have a history of stealing caches that you don't want to exist.

That is a lie. Isn't there forum guidelines about attacking other posters? Wouldn't telling lies about another poster fall under that? Isn't that defamation?

[+Slade and Angel]

I guess I'm a little confused. How, after 7-8 years of organized geocaching has the most basic, fundamental issue of "I found it/ No you didn't" not been solved? I'm not sure why after a cache owner has placed their cache they have any involvement with it other than maintaining it.

[+Criminal]

"Deleting" a cache is far different from deleting a log, the log deletion does NOT cost the logger anything where deleting a cache (a nicer way to say STEALING???) is against the law and costs the CO and anyone who goes to find the cache, not knowing someone who's been "robbed" of a smilie took revenge in a much more drastic (and sad) way!

I kinda think Criminal just has the, um, "stuff" to actually speak out loud the thoughts that some folks are thinking privately.

 

This hobby is only possible by the good graces of others. It almost forces us to be polite to each other, especially a cache owner's ability to delete a log on a whim. That certainly has made logs something less than completely honest just out of fear it might not stay. These forums have plenty of examples along the same line as this very thread.

 

Here's the thing: a cache is just as vulnerable. There is very little one can do to protect a cache from being muggled by another cacher. After all, the whole idea is for folks to be able to find it, to be able to get inside and sign the log. Most of the time there is few, if any, people around to observe the cacher. It would take literally only seconds for a determined cachers bent on removing a cache to make it disappear. Think about it. Unless you check on a cache right before and then right after a visit, you'd never know who took it. Otherwise you could be casually watching them search for the cache, you avert your eyes for a few seconds, and then go back to watching them. They give up and walk away. You go and talk to them and they say they couldn't find it. You go check on it and it's gone. Did they take it or was it already gone? Is it in their pack as they walk away?

 

Anyone who remembers the pirates of a few years ago would know how difficult it is to protect a cache.

 

So here's the next thing: a cache owner can deny a finder a log on a whim. It's not the cacher owner's log to deny or confirm, but it's the only tool Groundspeak has given us to keep the logs moderated. It's a very blunt tool. There is little a log writer can do to force an owner to leave a legitimate log alone. Of course, they could go off and tattle to TPTB and hope they do something about it.

 

...or they can take matters into their own hands and remind the cacher owner what is more vulnerable: the log or the cache.

 

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

 

I think what bothers me is the poster wants you to consider theft over a simple log deletion.

 

Really? Where are you reading that?

 

The OP asked this question:

How would others handle this?

I gave this answer:

If someone deleted my legitimate log I would seriously consider deleting their cache.

 

I didn’t “want anyone to consider theft” (which it isn’t) I simply answered the question that was asked. If you’re afraid of the answer, stay out of the forums.

 

My preferred method would be to repost my log as soon as it was deleted, each time asking the cache owner (via the email feature on their profile) what was wrong with the log. If I grew tired of that after a few hundred times, then I would consider removing the cache.

[+Rockin Roddy]

"Deleting" a cache is far different from deleting a log, the log deletion does NOT cost the logger anything where deleting a cache (a nicer way to say STEALING???) is against the law and costs the CO and anyone who goes to find the cache, not knowing someone who's been "robbed" of a smilie took revenge in a much more drastic (and sad) way!

I kinda think Criminal just has the, um, "stuff" to actually speak out loud the thoughts that some folks are thinking privately.

 

This hobby is only possible by the good graces of others. It almost forces us to be polite to each other, especially a cache owner's ability to delete a log on a whim. That certainly has made logs something less than completely honest just out of fear it might not stay. These forums have plenty of examples along the same line as this very thread.

 

Here's the thing: a cache is just as vulnerable. There is very little one can do to protect a cache from being muggled by another cacher. After all, the whole idea is for folks to be able to find it, to be able to get inside and sign the log. Most of the time there is few, if any, people around to observe the cacher. It would take literally only seconds for a determined cachers bent on removing a cache to make it disappear. Think about it. Unless you check on a cache right before and then right after a visit, you'd never know who took it. Otherwise you could be casually watching them search for the cache, you avert your eyes for a few seconds, and then go back to watching them. They give up and walk away. You go and talk to them and they say they couldn't find it. You go check on it and it's gone. Did they take it or was it already gone? Is it in their pack as they walk away?

 

Anyone who remembers the pirates of a few years ago would know how difficult it is to protect a cache.

 

So here's the next thing: a cache owner can deny a finder a log on a whim. It's not the cacher owner's log to deny or confirm, but it's the only tool Groundspeak has given us to keep the logs moderated. It's a very blunt tool. There is little a log writer can do to force an owner to leave a legitimate log alone. Of course, they could go off and tattle to TPTB and hope they do something about it.

 

...or they can take matters into their own hands and remind the cacher owner what is more vulnerable: the log or the cache.

 

*Before anyone says this is something I do or advocate; if it were, there would be a number of caches in my area that would no longer exist. I use the ignore button instead.

 

I think what bothers me is the poster wants you to consider theft over a simple log deletion.

 

Really? Where are you reading that?

 

The OP asked this question:

How would others handle this?

I gave this answer:

If someone deleted my legitimate log I would seriously consider deleting their cache.

 

I didn’t “want anyone to consider theft” (which it isn’t) I simply answered the question that was asked. If you’re afraid of the answer, stay out of the forums.

 

My preferred method would be to repost my log as soon as it was deleted, each time asking the cache owner (via the email feature on their profile) what was wrong with the log. If I grew tired of that after a few hundred times, then I would consider removing the cache.

 

Afraid of the answer?? I've come to expect this kind of response from you, my friend! Isn't the first time and I'm sure won't be the last. BUT, my comment stands...you're advocating theft of a cache over deletion of a log...simple. Your answer speaks volumes as to how you would handle a simple deletion, that's by resorting to way over-the-top actions! There's a name for it, but it might be construed as name calling, so I'll let others judge forthemselves!

 

And, reposting your log...will that ever help? First, you'd allow something like this to upset you...repeatedly, second, you'd just waste your time. Why not opt for the simple solution of ignoring the cache and all caches by the owner?

 

btw, I liken stealing a cache because of log deletion about like robbing the bank because they denied my credit (sure, a little out there, but the analogy works)! Someone said no, so take matters into one's own hands.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+Team GeoBlast]

It's clear that you only advocate stealing caches for other reasons, and I won't assume what those reasons are to avoid another false accusation.

 

But please, if you haven't done so already, please put all my caches on your ignore list on the off chance you ever make it to the metro Atlanta area. I'd prefer you not even see them just in case they fit within your acceptable reasons to steal a cache.

 

I find the fact that someone could possibly come into this forum, read this, and associate it with Geocaching very sad.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[Dinoprophet]

btw, I liken stealing a cache because of log deletion about like robbing the bank because they denied my credit (sure, a little out there, but the analogy works)! Someone said no, so take matters into one's own hands.

 

I think it's more like Bob's free ice cream stand that hands out stickers that say "I ate a free ice cream from Bob", but Bob doesn't like you, so even though you ate an ice cream, he didn't give you a sticker. So you trash his stand.

 

And I agree it is theft. A cache is private property on (usually) public land, just like a tent or a tree stand or a car in a parking lot.

[Mushtang]

It's clear that you only advocate stealing caches for other reasons, and I won't assume what those reasons are to avoid another false accusation.

Careful where you step. TPTB themselves used to tell other cachers to remove caches. These caches were not theirs to remove. By your definition you are accusing Groundspeak of stealing caches by proxy and those cachers who removed said caches, as well.

 

Additionally, CITOing out geotrash must be stealing in your book, too.

I think removing anyone's cache is stealing. Why should I be careful saying that???? Just because a cache is no longer listed here doesn't mean it's not listed somewhere else and therefore geotrash. You can keep trying to justify your action, but the facts are right there on the cache page. The owner did NOT ask you to remove it, TPTB did NOT ask you to remove it, the owner was obviously upset with you that you DID remove it, and he himself used the word thief. So it's not just my book.

 

My point is that you, Coyotered, DO in fact have a history of stealing caches that you don't want to exist.

That is a lie. Isn't there forum guidelines about attacking other posters? Wouldn't telling lies about another poster fall under that? Isn't that defamation?

I guess if it were a lie then it might be bad. But it's not a lie. You took his cache.

 

If you're tired of me bringing this up, then feel free to stop claiming that you've never stolen a cache. That's the lie. And I'll call you on it every time.

[CoyoteRed]

...TPTB did NOT ask you to remove it...

What has that got to do with anything? If TPTB say to remove the cache then it's magically not stealing? What's the difference?

 

I guess if it were a lie then it might be bad. But it's not a lie. You took his cache.

"Taking a cache" as a blanket statement is not the issue you brought up. "Stealing a cache" is. Don't be backpedaling trying to hide behind obfuscation. People "take" a cache all the time to CITO it out. I've done it more than once. I'm not sure the number of people is above one that consider that stealing. (That "one" being you. Maybe two if you can get your brother to agree.)

 

If you're tired of me bringing this up, then feel free to stop claiming that you've never stolen a cache. That's the lie. And I'll call you on it every time.

Stop! I took the cache or I stole the cache? Which is it? One is perfectly acceptable in certain circumstances while the other is not. I'm not sure you're not confused as to which is which yourself.

 

BTW, why would I give a hoot about the opinion of someone who would vandalize private property? I removed his cache and attempted a repair to said private property. I offered to return the cache. Obviously he didn't want it. I heard not the first peep about how to get it back to him. It sat on my desk for months. He could have asked that drop it by another one of his caches, another cache, mailed to him, or many others options. That tells me he didn't care about it.

 

I make absolutely no apologies for what I did. If it really were stealing, why hasn't TPTB sanctioned me? If what I did really were stealing and I didn't get punished, wouldn't that open the door for everyone to go around pulling caches? You tell me then why I didn't didn't hear the first peep from TPTB about me removing that cache?

[+wimseyguy]

....and yet another somewhat interesting thread dies a slow death due to a 2 part discussion of what he/she/they said/meant to say.....

[+Rockin Roddy]

....and yet another somewhat interesting thread dies a slow death due to a 2 part discussion of what he/she/they said/meant to say.....

Yep, I thought that's what the PM feature was for!

[CoyoteRed]

....and yet another somewhat interesting thread dies a slow death due to a 2 part discussion of what he/she/they said/meant to say.....

Yep, I thought that's what the PM feature was for!

The PM feature wouldn't produce the audience he needs.

[+KJcachers]

I just wasted 15 minutes going through this..I will never get that time back....somebody lock this thread and save future readers the pain we have all suffered.

[+bflentje]

....and yet another somewhat interesting thread dies a slow death due to a 2 part discussion of what he/she/they said/meant to say.....

Yep, I thought that's what the PM feature was for!

The PM feature wouldn't produce the audience he needs.

 

Sure. But I am now fascinated by this topic-creap. I don't know which story is true. But I can't imagine anyone thinking they were judge, jury, and hangman in the caching world. Find and log the cache and go about your business. If a cache bothers you, contact reviewer and then move on. It's that simple. The log deletion thing is just crazy.

[+prntr1]

....and yet another somewhat interesting thread dies a slow death due to a 2 part discussion of what he/she/they said/meant to say.....

Yep, I thought that's what the PM feature was for!

The PM feature wouldn't produce the audience he needs.

 

Sure. But I am now fascinated by this topic-creap. I don't know which story is true. But I can't imagine anyone thinking they were judge, jury, and hangman in the caching world. Find and log the cache and go about your business. If a cache bothers you, contact reviewer and then move on. It's that simple. The log deletion thing is just crazy.

 

The problem with that is the guy does it once, then twice, pretty soon he/she/they have deleted dozens of logs from different cachers.

No good way to deal with someone that has a power issue and just wants to delete, we have one near here, we try to ignore him, but it can be hard. There is always another story, or another side, or issues, sad but true.

[+prntr1]

Here's my thought, though: personal issues between a cache hider and a cache logger should be irrelevant. If a person I absolutely loathe* finds my cache and logs it properly, then it has been logged. If I mean a cache to only be found by certain people, I will email them the coordinates and not publish the cache on geocaching.com in the first place.

 

That's my feeling as well. Deleting legit found it logs is petty and juvenile.

 

That is a good take on it, I "retaliated" once for multiple deletions of my logs, realized it was petty and juvenile as you said, now I just relog with a period, if they delete it again, it is on them.

[+TeamSeekAndWeShallFind]

We are the owners of the cache/deleted log in question.We haven't responded to this thread since it started and we will not get into our personal "issues" with the OP here now.

 

What we will say however is we've been speaking with a representative from GC.com about the subject of log deletion and we've gone into it EXTENSIVELY over the course of the past 5 day.We told the rep THE WHOLE STORY.

 

Trust me when I tell you that no matter how bad your situation might get with another cacher(s),you CANNOT delete their logs because of it.Cache owners ARE NOT ALLOWED to delete logs due to personal issues with other cachers.Period.They have assured us that they have reinstated many,many deleted logs because of this reason and they have assured us that they would do the same for us if our log(s) were deleted.

 

If you delete someone's log because of a personal issue and that person contacts GC.com they WILL reinstate the log.So please,save yourself the trouble and don't delete the log. We went through every single aspect of the reason we deleted the log and GC.com does not care how ugly your personal situation is with the others involved.They might feel bad for you but that's about it.

 

The only reasons cache owners can delete logs are listed in the cache placing guidelines under "Maintenance."

 

So,we wrote a letter to the OP a few minutes ago and not only apologized for deleting her log and invited her to relog, but we also asked if we might make a fresh start and put the past behind us.We may never be friends but we need to at least respect eachother as fellow Geocachers.

 

It's our hope that she'll respond in a positive way and we can move forward from here.If you have a situation going on with cachers in your area,why not take this time,the holiday season,to drop them a note and do the same. Wether you started the problems or they started the problems,if it's not life threatening serious,let it go. I will tell you that since writing the note and speaking to the representative from GC.com, we feel a whole lot better than we have during the past 5 days.

 

Thanks for Listening...TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

(I edited because I forgot to say that of course,we invited her to relog).We're not really privy to how forums work but we do know that editing is kind of frowned upon. Thank You

Edited December 4, 2008 by TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

[Mr.Yuck]

We are the owners of the cache/deleted log in question.We haven't responded to this thread since it started and we will not get into our personal "issues" with the OP here now.

 

What we will say however is we've been speaking with a representative from GC.com about the subject of log deletion and we've gone into it EXTENSIVELY over the course of the past 5 day.We told the rep THE WHOLE STORY.

 

Trust me when I tell you that no matter how bad your situation might get with another cacher(s),you CANNOT delete their logs because of it.Cache owners ARE NOT ALLOWED to delete logs due to personal issues with other cachers.Period.They have assured us that they have reinstated many,many deleted logs because of this reason and they have assured us that they would do the same for us if our log(s) were deleted.

 

If you delete someone's log because of a personal issue and that person contacts GC.com they WILL reinstate the log.So please,save yourself the trouble and don't delete the log. We went through every single aspect of the reason we deleted the log and GC.com does not care how ugly your personal situation is with the others involved.They might feel bad for you but that's about it.

 

 

Well, that's certainly a new policy. Thanks for sharing the info. Best of luck with your situation, sounds like you have extended an olive branch.

[+knabino]

First - thanks TSAWSF - I will be relogging the cache when I get back to logging.

 

I consider this the end of it and the thread can be locked should the Mods see fit.

[+Doctor J.]

First - thanks TSAWSF - I will be relogging the cache when I get back to logging.

 

I consider this the end of it and the thread can be locked should the Mods see fit.

 

Now it all makes sense after reading the last few posts. It's rather evident who's who and what's what except for one thing. One of the two parties writes a nice apology and the other gives a half-hearted response. If that is indicative of her personality then I see why the logs were deleted in the first place. You see, its only about the numbers and not making amends.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Doctor J.

[+Team GeoBlast]

We are the owners of the cache/deleted log in question.We haven't responded to this thread since it started and we will not get into our personal "issues" with the OP here now.

 

What we will say however is we've been speaking with a representative from GC.com about the subject of log deletion and we've gone into it EXTENSIVELY over the course of the past 5 day.We told the rep THE WHOLE STORY.

 

Trust me when I tell you that no matter how bad your situation might get with another cacher(s),you CANNOT delete their logs because of it.Cache owners ARE NOT ALLOWED to delete logs due to personal issues with other cachers.Period.They have assured us that they have reinstated many,many deleted logs because of this reason and they have assured us that they would do the same for us if our log(s) were deleted.

 

If you delete someone's log because of a personal issue and that person contacts GC.com they WILL reinstate the log.So please,save yourself the trouble and don't delete the log. We went through every single aspect of the reason we deleted the log and GC.com does not care how ugly your personal situation is with the others involved.They might feel bad for you but that's about it.

 

The only reasons cache owners can delete logs are listed in the cache placing guidelines under "Maintenance."

 

So,we wrote a letter to the OP a few minutes ago and not only apologized for deleting her log and invited her to relog, but we also asked if we might make a fresh start and put the past behind us.We may never be friends but we need to at least respect eachother as fellow Geocachers.

 

It's our hope that she'll respond in a positive way and we can move forward from here.If you have a situation going on with cachers in your area,why not take this time,the holiday season,to drop them a note and do the same. Wether you started the problems or they started the problems,if it's not life threatening serious,let it go. I will tell you that since writing the note and speaking to the representative from GC.com, we feel a whole lot better than we have during the past 5 days.

 

Thanks for Listening...TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

(I edited because I forgot to say that of course,we invited her to relog).We're not really privy to how forums work but we do know that editing is kind of frowned upon. Thank You

 

I appreciate you taking the time to write this because many times in these forums you end up with one side of a complaint and often have to assume that the "other side" of the issue is as evil as reported.

 

That said, what I took from your post is that you DID delete their log due to a personal issue just as the OP stated. This is an issue you understandably do not want to talk about nor am I encouraging you to do so. I think the issue itself is unimportant to the core of this discussion.

 

What I don't understand is the way you admittedly elected to solve the issue between you and the OP in the first place. That it took you explaining your issues EXTENSIVELY with Groundspeak before you came to the realization that deleting a log might not be a good way to be handling your differences.

 

While I really appreciate and totally agree with what you are saying here.

 

If you have a situation going on with cachers in your area,why not take this time,the holiday season,to drop them a note and do the same. Wether you started the problems or they started the problems,if it's not life threatening serious,let it go.

 

I find it pretty confusing when I consider what you just told us you did.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[+TeamSeekAndWeShallFind]

We are the owners of the cache/deleted log in question.We haven't responded to this thread since it started and we will not get into our personal "issues" with the OP here now.

 

What we will say however is we've been speaking with a representative from GC.com about the subject of log deletion and we've gone into it EXTENSIVELY over the course of the past 5 day.We told the rep THE WHOLE STORY.

 

Trust me when I tell you that no matter how bad your situation might get with another cacher(s),you CANNOT delete their logs because of it.Cache owners ARE NOT ALLOWED to delete logs due to personal issues with other cachers.Period.They have assured us that they have reinstated many,many deleted logs because of this reason and they have assured us that they would do the same for us if our log(s) were deleted.

 

If you delete someone's log because of a personal issue and that person contacts GC.com they WILL reinstate the log.So please,save yourself the trouble and don't delete the log. We went through every single aspect of the reason we deleted the log and GC.com does not care how ugly your personal situation is with the others involved.They might feel bad for you but that's about it.

 

 

Well, that's certainly a new policy. Thanks for sharing the info. Best of luck with your situation, sounds like you have extended an olive branch.

 

Thank you WhiteUrkel ! We would also like to address one further thing and that is the reason we were banned for 30 days which was mentioned by the OP.Maybe,hopefully,this will save one of you from making the same mistake we did.This also has to do with,in part,deleted logs.

 

We have a few local cachers who have destroyed the terrain at all of our cache sites on the GWT.When I say "destroyed," I mean obliviated the ground and every living thing on it. Skinned trees,pulled up plants(native & non),busted up logs/fallen/stumps smashed into a thousand pieces and thrown around the area and trees have literally been left without branches.The situation went on all summer and it started because we wouldn't give them hints to our very first cache.We believe this induced anger and it never stopped.They left logs with cussing words,deleted them and then logged them again.They sent us abusive emails using fake Geocaching names etc...On and on and on.

 

Finally,we had had enough and were beside ourselves.We posted the information about the terrain destruction on one of our cache pages.Someone didn't like it and reported our "ranting." Turns out our "speaking out," in this way,on the site, is considered an "agenda," which violates GC.com's,"Terms of Use Agreement." That's the agreement that you "sign" everytime you click that little box at the bottom of the page when you submit a cache.Actually,you agree whenever you use their site.We now have the TOU on our list of favorites and we know it backwards and forwards and have NO plans of violating these terms in the future.

 

GC.com had every right to suspend us and we hold no ill will.It's their site and we, (unknowingly),violated their terms.We will continue to support the site with the renewal of our yearly membership.

 

So speaking out ended with that cache being archived as well as 3 other caches that made mention of "them" and the destruction.We just want them to stay away from our caches and when we returned after being suspended,they were back and each logged one more cache of ours.Needless to say,we deleted those logs and needless to say,the logs were reinstated several days ago.Those 2 logs and the log from the OP on this thread were the only logs we ever deleted and we didn't take it lightly.

 

As Geocachers we have to be aware of terrain destruction at all times or we will find our sport going the way of the dinosaurs.Our cache sites along the GWT are completely visible from the major road that goes by,(Rt.64),due to this destruction.It is unlike anything we've ever seen at any cache sites in the 1+ since we've been caching.I stood at one of our cache sites where there's a tree that's older than the hills and when I saw the humongous pieces of bark ripped off and hanging there blowing in the wind I was actually so sad I cried. Eventually,the non Geocaching community is going to start to notice this destruction and then the cat is out of the bag and DeKalb will be yet another county that requires permits.We thought of archiving all of our caches.Caches that took us weeks during our spare time to place.We wrote to them and wrote to them about what they were doing with the hopes they would stop.We gave away our first hide to protect the terrain.Should we give away all of our hides because these few bad apples who throw tantrums and destroy terrain can't find our caches?Maybe we should and maybe we should just move to a different county in a whole different direction.Please note:These 2 cachers have nothing to do with the OP of this thread! She is not the terrain destroyer!

 

So,you see,no matter how bad it gets,it doesn't matter.You cannot delete logs for personal reasons no matter how ugly they get. We hope that what we've learned about 'log deletion' and,"agendas," and the bad situations we found ourselves in, might help you in the future.Please don't make the same mistakes we did.

 

Remember;"Agendas...right or wrong,noble or bad," are not allowed on the GC.com site.That is a quote from the GC representative that we dealt with during our suspension.

 

That's it.We won't be responding any further.

 

HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE !

TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

Carl & Kimberly

Edited December 4, 2008 by TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

[+TeamSeekAndWeShallFind]

First - thanks TSAWSF - I will be relogging the cache when I get back to logging.

 

I consider this the end of it and the thread can be locked should the Mods see fit.

 

FANTASTIC !!!!

 

Thank you Knabino for responding ! This is a happy day !

 

Here's to only positive in the future !

 

Happy Holidays,

TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

[+Team GeoBlast]

We are the owners of the cache/deleted log in question.We haven't responded to this thread since it started and we will not get into our personal "issues" with the OP here now.

 

What we will say however is we've been speaking with a representative from GC.com about the subject of log deletion and we've gone into it EXTENSIVELY over the course of the past 5 day.We told the rep THE WHOLE STORY.

 

Trust me when I tell you that no matter how bad your situation might get with another cacher(s),you CANNOT delete their logs because of it.Cache owners ARE NOT ALLOWED to delete logs due to personal issues with other cachers.Period.They have assured us that they have reinstated many,many deleted logs because of this reason and they have assured us that they would do the same for us if our log(s) were deleted.

 

If you delete someone's log because of a personal issue and that person contacts GC.com they WILL reinstate the log.So please,save yourself the trouble and don't delete the log. We went through every single aspect of the reason we deleted the log and GC.com does not care how ugly your personal situation is with the others involved.They might feel bad for you but that's about it.

 

 

Well, that's certainly a new policy. Thanks for sharing the info. Best of luck with your situation, sounds like you have extended an olive branch.

 

Thank you WhiteUrkel ! We would also like to address one further thing and that is the reason we were banned for 30 days which was mentioned by the OP.Maybe,hopefully,this will save one of you from making the same mistake we did.This also has to do with,in part,deleted logs.

 

We have a few local cachers who have destroyed the terrain at all of our cache sites on the GWT.When I say "destroyed," I mean obliviated the ground and every living thing on it. Skinned trees,pulled up plants(native & non),busted up logs/fallen/stumps smashed into a thousand pieces and thrown around the area and trees have literally been left without branches.The situation went on all summer and it started because we wouldn't give them hints to our very first cache.We believe this induced anger and it never stopped.They left logs with cussing words,deleted them and then logged them again.They sent us abusive emails using fake Geocaching names etc...On and on and on.

 

Finally,we had had enough and were beside ourselves.We posted the information about the terrain destruction on one of our cache pages.Someone didn't like it and reported our "ranting." Turns out our "speaking out," in this way,on the site, is considered an "agenda," which violates GC.com's,"Terms of Use Agreement." That's the agreement that you "sign" everytime you click that little box at the bottom of the page when you submit a cache.Actually,you agree whenever you use their site.We now have the TOU on our list of favorites and we know it backwards and forwards and have NO plans of violating these terms in the future.

 

GC.com had every right to suspend us and we hold no ill will.It's their site and we, (unknowingly),violated their terms.We will continue to support the site with the renewal of our yearly membership.

 

So speaking out ended with that cache being archived as well as 3 other caches that made mention of "them" and the destruction.We just want them to stay away from our caches and when we returned after being suspended,they were back and each logged one more cache of ours.Needless to say,we deleted those logs and needless to say,the logs were reinstated several days ago.Those and the log from the OP on this thread were the only logs we ever deleted.

 

So,you see,no matter how bad it gets,it doesn't matter.You cannot delete logs for personal reasons no matter how ugly they get. We hope that what we've learned about 'log deletion' and,"agendas," and the bad situations we found ourselves in, might help you in the future.Please don't make the same mistakes we did.

 

Remember;"Agendas...right or wrong,noble or bad," are not allowed on the GC.com site.That is a quote from the GC representative that we dealt with during our suspension.

 

That's it.We won't be responding any further.

 

HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE !

TeamSeekAndWeShallFind

Carl & Kimberly

 

Okay. I had thought that we weren't going share the issue. But knowing what it is only reinforces what I said in my earlier post. If the terrain is getting destroyed, how important is your cache in the grand scheme of things? You let this trashing go on all summer and kept your cache active? I'm not sure sure why you didn't just archive the cache instead of throwing gas on the fire by deleting logs and not giving hints to your other caches.

 

This really sounds like a situation where nobody is in the right because none of this could have transpired if both parties were not actively participating.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Team GeoBlast

[Mushtang]

...TPTB did NOT ask you to remove it...

What has that got to do with anything? If TPTB say to remove the cache then it's magically not stealing? What's the difference?

Huh? I never said it magically wasn't stealing. It's stealing. You stole the cache. I thought it was pretty clear that my opinion was that you stole something that wasn't your property, and it didn't matter who may or may not have suggested that it was okay.

 

I guess if it were a lie then it might be bad. But it's not a lie. You took his cache.

"Taking a cache" as a blanket statement is not the issue you brought up. "Stealing a cache" is. Don't be backpedaling trying to hide behind obfuscation. People "take" a cache all the time to CITO it out. I've done it more than once. I'm not sure the number of people is above one that consider that stealing. (That "one" being you. Maybe two if you can get your brother to agree.)

You're playing games with the words "taking" and "stealing" as though I suggested a difference, and then accuse ME of obfuscation??? HAHAHAHAHAHA. If you "take" something that doesn't belong to you, then you've "stolen" it. Which is what you did to the cache. And as far as who may agree with me, I'll share an email I got today from someone I don't even know. It says:

 

Hi,

 

I support your posts in the forums. I wouldn't want someone taking my caches if

it was kind of far from my normal caching area and there was a question about

it.

 

(Name withheld by Mushtang)

 

If you're tired of me bringing this up, then feel free to stop claiming that you've never stolen a cache. That's the lie. And I'll call you on it every time.

Stop! I took the cache or I stole the cache? Which is it? One is perfectly acceptable in certain circumstances while the other is not. I'm not sure you're not confused as to which is which yourself.

I'll try to be crystal clear here, just to keep you from being confused. If you "take" something that doesn't belong to you, against the wishes of the owner, then you're "stealing". In this case you took the case, you stole the cache, same thing. How can you still not see this??

 

BTW, why would I give a hoot about the opinion of someone who would vandalize private property?

You're assuming he vandalized private property. I don't know if he did or not. If I had been in your shoes I would have either asked him if he'd like me to remove the cache and send it to him, or let it stay between TPTB and the owner and not stuck my nose into his business. Maybe the hole the cache was in was already there. Maybe he had proof of this and he was preparing an email to TPTB to show this. Maybe lots of things, but you didn't know for sure. You took it upon yourself to act like the cache police and the cache judge and deal with a situation the wrong way.

 

I removed his cache and attempted a repair to said private property. I offered to return the cache. Obviously he didn't want it. I heard not the first peep about how to get it back to him. It sat on my desk for months. He could have asked that drop it by another one of his caches, another cache, mailed to him, or many others options. That tells me he didn't care about it.

But none of it tells you that you should have stolen the cache in the first place.

 

I make absolutely no apologies for what I did.

Most thieves don't.

 

If it really were stealing, why hasn't TPTB sanctioned me? If what I did really were stealing and I didn't get punished, wouldn't that open the door for everyone to go around pulling caches? You tell me then why I didn't didn't hear the first peep from TPTB about me removing that cache?

I can't assume to know why they didn't do anything. I'm not going to speak for them. The fact that they didn't sanction you doesn't change the fact that you did steal a cache. As someone recently asked me, "What has that got to do with anything? If TPTB say to remove the cache then it's magically not stealing? What's the difference?" And you were right when you asked that. There's no difference. Stealing is stealing no matter if they'd asked you to do it or if they never tried to sanction you afterwards.

[+MissJenn]

I consider this the end of it and the thread can be locked should the Mods see fit.