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What Makes a Geocoin a Geocoin?


LadyBee4T
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I saw these coins in the mailbox thread and thinking they were new holiday geocoins I posted in the trading thread for a trade. Then I found out that they aren't geocoins. :anibad: Soooo then I started thinking about what actually makes a geocoin a geocoin. Is it the words track me at geocaching.com with the tracking number? If so, then all those cool non trackables would be left out. Are geocoins only made by one of the pinned vendors who specifically state they make geocoins?

 

I've thought for quite a while now that most of the geocoins that are coming out have absolutely nothing to do with caching so wondered why they are called geocoins. (Boy that sure sounds like a certain oldtimer here doesn't it? <_< )

 

My question then is--what makes a geocoin a geocoin to you?

 

santa2.jpg

santa1.jpg

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As you pointed out, many coins have nothing at all to do with caching, yet are made by or for people who cache. I don't know the answer to your question, but I would like to see coins being made with at least a bit of meaning to caching.

 

I know, just about everything caching related has been covered once or twenty times, but that doesn't mean it can't be given a new spin...does it?? And, putting your caching name on the coin makes it personal and caching related!! I say, MORE personals please!

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A geocoin is made by a geocacher. There are coins out there for so many different things, it's amazing. Commemorative coins, military coins, group coins and so on.

It used to be that a geocoin was a coin that was geocaching related, or personal to the geocacher. Now there are so many made for their commercial value, or for benefits, or Holidays, or other hobbies, that we could probably just remove the geo from the word. We've sort of gotten away from the "geo" in geocoins. But that's just my own humble opinion as someone who has been in these forums since before they had their own forums.

But isn't it funny that a Holiday Coin that is not geocaching related, and was not made by a geocacher, has Santa in a Jeep?

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As you pointed out, many coins have nothing at all to do with caching, yet are made by or for people who cache. I don't know the answer to your question, but I would like to see coins being made with at least a bit of meaning to caching.

 

Oh goodie another thread for everyone to verbally battle in, lol.

 

I have to disagree with your above statement. I can think of several cachers (cough, keilia, cough, haha <_<) who have said this numerous times. I don't understand this statement? Geocaching to you (general) and geocaching to me (me) mean different things. Geocaching is representative of many things to many people, it's about the journey and to so some people maybe it's only about the cache itself but either way it's an individual thought process what geocaching is about.

 

So if someone comes up with an octopus design that doesn't have any hint of a cache on it or the GS logo, does that mean it's not a geocoin? What if that person saw an octopus when they were doing a 5/5 ocean cache way back when and it just really made an impression on them? Maybe it isn't caching related to you (general) but it is to them. Sometimes it just gets old seeing everyone trying to define that crap outta something and making a round object fit into a square package :anibad:

 

My designs are all based around my experiences and thoughts and feelings when I'm caching, those are personal to me so I don't feel the need to go into detail about all of it for everyone else's benefit but I know many people can identify with them. I don't feel the need to put an ammo can or micro or GS logo, etc. on them because I see it on enough designs and it isn't my style. Just because they don't represent caching to you (general) doesn't mean they aren't caching related. They just aren't caching related to you (general) and that's fine but it doesn't make it true for everyone.

 

Now to address LB4T's question;

 

A geocoin to me can be either trackable or nontrackable (I prefer the later). It can have or not have caching related items on it. It can have or not have your caching name on it. In my liberal :blink: opinion, as long as the coin when designed was representative of caching to a person when it was made, then it could qualify as a geocoin. If that coin wasn't made by a cacher or geocoin vendor than more than likely it isn't geocoin related but hey, it has a Hummer on it and if some people cache in Hummers, than if they want it to be a geocoin, than whatever.... lol.

 

Ok in the end, to each her/his own. If it makes you happy that's what's important (well to me anyhow).

 

I didn't say this was inexcusable or forbidden, I merely pointed out that I would like to see more personals! I can understand any coins which seem unrelated to caching, but some are obviously more for commercial than others. The carousel horses come to mind right off. Some said they had found a cache near one...fine. But then make it personal or show the relationship and I'm all for it. Another would be the Obama/McCain coins...why??? I suppose I have little to say though, since I'm not a buyer of most any coin these days.

 

Remember the pirhanna coins, those had nothing to do with caching, until you put the context of the coin into play. Made to poke fun at the forums. The mailbox coins...put a bunch of names on it and it's all good and a wanted item (although it is a part of the coin world too). Your ET coins? A symbol of being eco-friendly (at least to me)...this is a part of caching as well. If you'll remember back to your first coin or so, I asked if you'd be putting your caching name on it? Would have made the coin even more meaningful...to me!

 

My preference is a personal (reminder of friends in the caching world) or a coin which shows a relation to caching. Your preferences might be different! If someone came here with a bowling coin, I'd not call it a caching coin merely because Joe Blow said he passed a bowling alley on the way to the cache.

 

Now, if the octopus were guarding a cache, I'm in for the coin, I'm sure it'll be a hit!

 

Again, my preference and your preference doesn't mean we're at odds, just means I might not buy what you feel is a must buy coin! And I don't see this thread as being angsty...unless others make it that way. But, that's their preference!

 

I think a good question one could ask when looking at coins...if I see a coin in the world, does it make me think of caching? If I saw it and knew nothing about caching, would I instantly associate it to caching or something else?

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I erased my post Rod..... see above statement, thanks for replying back but I let my exuberance get the best of me and I've been trying to take a less active roll these days.... tsun

 

Less active?? <_< A Tsun-less forums is a darker forums (note the pun intended there lol)! I appreciate your input, it's your thoughts! Without input, without discussion, without the occasional disagreement these forums wouldn't be fun to hang around!

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but in the end, too many other important issues in the world to worry about...

 

Yep you're right there. Today its football--Delhomme or Thigpen who do I start? Whoops wrong message board.. <_<

 

In my own mind I have an idea of what I think of when I hear the word geocoin and just having a tracking number on it doesn't always make it for me. Its basically the subject matter of the coin for me. I like personals, coins representing places I have been and events I have attended or caching organizations. A lot of the coins are becoming more and more commercialized and I have pulled back from those. I think everyone has a different idea how a coin relates to geocaching and I like hearing those ideas too.

 

Back to football and decisions.....

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But isn't it funny that a Holiday Coin that is not geocaching related, and was not made by a geocacher, has Santa in a Jeep?

 

Yep it is! But its actually a Humvee and that's what drew my attention to it as one of my son's has a hummer.

 

It not that funny, he's also holding a machinegun in his left hand <_<

 

And a geocoin makes a geocoin if it's not made in different metals. Just one type and no LE, XLE, SLE or whatever. All those metals made me stopping collecting/buying them. But maybe that's another thread :anibad:

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I pretty much collect what I like, regardless of whether it's "official" in someone else's book. "Geo" is in the eye of the beholder.

I'll second that... I have tons of things in my collection od "Sigitems" that actually are just cool, and in no way a sigitem.

I'll third this sentiment. I think everyone has their own idea of what constitutes a Geocoin.

 

For me, if it's trackable, it's a geocoin. I love icons, and I love seeing the amazing designs that people have been able to come up with. There's a small part of me that gets bummed when I find out a really cool coin isn't trackable. But I get over that quickly. :laughing:

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I think Atlanta gal summed it up the best. I mean when it started geocoins were not able to be tracked so having a tracking number should not be the only requirement . As for the coin in Question if you like it and keep it great but if it doesnt have a tracking number then its just a coin.

 

Are you saying here then that if a round shiny object doesn't have a tracking number than it isn't a geocoin? Are all the cool nontrackables only coins and not geocoins? I only used that picture because its what got me thinking about it this am...

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I think Atlanta gal summed it up the best. I mean when it started geocoins were not able to be tracked so having a tracking number should not be the only requirement . As for the coin in Question if you like it and keep it great but if it doesnt have a tracking number then its just a coin.

 

Are you saying here then that if a round shiny object doesn't have a tracking number than it isn't a geocoin? Are all the cool nontrackables only coins and not geocoins? I only used that picture because its what got me thinking about it this am...

 

While writing my previous post I started thinking about all the non-trackable geocoins out there and realized that the non-trackable side of geocoins has so much variety I couldn't come up with a hard and fast rule about what I would consider a geocoin for myself, much less suggest to anyone else! They just cover too wide of a spectrum. Some I easily consider geocoins but some out there it takes me quite a stretch of the imagination to call geocoins. But some decisions are easy: Personal Non-trackables are cool, and Mystery coins are just plain awesome! Coins like the ones that started this thread I consider tokens unless they are being dropped in caches, then I'd call them geocoins.

 

But the Roo Pennies we drop in caches as our signature item? They're just coins...for now.

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When I first started collecting Geocoins, my definition would have been summed up by AtlantaGal's comments. Then the more I saw, I think my definition expanded to include Eartha's comments. However, now that I have met some Geocoin Fanatics both in person and through these forums, I feel like Geocoins are described by all of the above and most assuredly by TSuns's definition. Geocoins are definitely all of these things. In fact, I especially like TSun's astute observations and I whole-heartedly agree, especially when it comes to personal Geocoins. Personal coins, whether they reflect anything about Geocaching or Geocoins shouldn't really matter. Their coin(s) reflect who they are or what their interests entail and by placing that on a coin and presenting it to the Geocoin Community should be enough to qualify it as "Geocoin Related" :laughing:

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I think Atlanta gal summed it up the best. I mean when it started geocoins were not able to be tracked so having a tracking number should not be the only requirement . As for the coin in Question if you like it and keep it great but if it doesnt have a tracking number then its just a coin.

 

Are you saying here then that if a round shiny object doesn't have a tracking number than it isn't a geocoin? Are all the cool nontrackables only coins and not geocoins? I only used that picture because its what got me thinking about it this am...

 

I did not say not trackable not a geocoin.

 

1)First it has to be a coin [ any shape , I know this is another argument round or not.]

Then if it 's trackable for sure a Geocoin

 

OR It has to be either

 

2)a geocacher's personal coin or something personal for a cacher

OR

3) The coin theme is caching related-- If you saw a octopus while out caching and you made it into a coin I think its Probably a geocoin Because it that's cachers experience on the coin.Or if a cacher made it as swag then it would be a geocoin.

 

But santa on a humvee with a machine gun Probably just a cool coin not a geocoin unless Rule 2 or 3 apply

 

But the biggest thing is if you like it enjoy it It doesn't have to be a geocoin to be enjoyed .

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Tracking on geocaching.com

OR

a geocacher's personal coin

OR

The coin theme is caching related

 

If it doesn't have at least one of those elements, it's not a GEOcoin. It's just a coin.

 

As you pointed out, many coins have nothing at all to do with caching, yet are made by or for people who cache. I don't know the answer to your question, but I would like to see coins being made with at least a bit of meaning to caching.

 

I know, just about everything caching related has been covered once or twenty times, but that doesn't mean it can't be given a new spin...does it?? And, putting your caching name on the coin makes it personal and caching related!! I say, MORE personals please!

 

I personally think these definitions still leave room for argument and speculation. Who's to define what is geocaching related? None of my coins have images of ammo cans or GPS units, but to me the phrases "not all who wander are lost" and "sometimes the journey is the destination" just scream geocaching. Others may not agree. If mine weren't trackable it would be argued by some they weren't geocoins then, even though they are to me :anibad:

 

:laughing:

Edited by scavok
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Tracking on geocaching.com

OR

a geocacher's personal coin

OR

The coin theme is caching related

 

If it doesn't have at least one of those elements, it's not a GEOcoin. It's just a coin.

 

As you pointed out, many coins have nothing at all to do with caching, yet are made by or for people who cache. I don't know the answer to your question, but I would like to see coins being made with at least a bit of meaning to caching.

 

I know, just about everything caching related has been covered once or twenty times, but that doesn't mean it can't be given a new spin...does it?? And, putting your caching name on the coin makes it personal and caching related!! I say, MORE personals please!

 

I personally think these definitions still leave room for argument and speculation. Who's to define what is geocaching related? None of my coins have images of ammo cans or GPS units, but to me the phrases "not all who wander are lost" and "sometimes the journey is the destination" just scream geocaching. Others may not agree. If mine weren't trackable it would be argued by some they weren't geocoins then, even though they are to me :anibad:

 

:laughing:

 

Don't most of your coins have your caching name somewhere on them? I might not have looked closely on the last one I received, but I thought you usually put your name on them. I know the hand-made coins were personal, by you and with my name on it!

 

Some coins you can just tell are caching related, some you'd really have to stretch your imagination for and some just scream commercial. Back to the carousel coins and the McCain/Obama coins...they just scream commercial!

 

I worked with a coiner to have a coin made. It won't be persoanl (although I would have loved it to be), but it is OBVIOUSLY caching related by the use of the cache types and some event names. I'll not spoil the announcement as it should come out soon, but it won't be hard to tell it's a geocoin regardless of shape or features! Some coins just scream geocaching as well!! I'm also working with another company on a new design. This coin will be personal (as I've heard) but will NOT be cache related (or at least not obviously like the last one). It will spread a message though, anyone who's read the forums recently will be able to identify it as a geocoin!! (anyone who's moved one of our TWR coins will as well lol)

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In order to be an "official" geocoin, it must be in my collection. So, please ensure that you send one to me whenever you create one - especially if you want it to be "official" :laughing:

 

More to the topic though.

 

I personally (and I *do* mean personally) only collect coins made by a cacher as a personal coin (name on coin) or by an organization related to caching. I far prefer face-to-face trades - as this mean I actually met the cacher, and I also don't like coins that are never intended to really be in a cache, but are created for the sole purpose of commercial sales and collecting.

 

That's just me.

 

As for what makes a proper "geocoin"? That's up in the air. To each their own. Personally, even if the Santa in the coin that started (re-started) this discussion has a GPS and an Ammo can - I still wouldn't want one in my collection. Unless I actually met Santa..... which would be cool.... except I've been known to be a little naughty - so maybe I should avoid him....

 

I've always found the geocoin craze to be a little odd - which is why I probably haven't been too active around geocoins since 2006 or so. It's a catch-22. On the one hand - I hope that there is so much coin-saturation that they lose their appeal and become a cache item rather than an object of desire. On the other hand, the subject matter in many coins seems truly odd. However, that's just me. I've seem wonderful coins that don't seem to be geo-related (Tiki's, Greenman, and more) and I've seen coins I hate that have ammo cans on them (names withheld - if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it....)

 

In the end. (whew!) - I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me - that means personals, face-to-face, and *some* geo-organizations.

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Opps. I also like "historical" coins (the first 1000 geocoins) and some of the coins from "forum friends". As one example, I've never met Mr. Yemony-Limony, or that gal from Atlanta, the biker of moun10's, or other folks and blokes....but they've made me laugh and cry in the forums (sometimes at the same time) - so their personal coins hold a lot of meaning for me.

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Tracking on geocaching.com

OR

a geocacher's personal coin

OR

The coin theme is caching related

 

If it doesn't have at least one of those elements, it's not a GEOcoin. It's just a coin.

 

If mine weren't trackable it would be argued by some they weren't geocoins then, even though they are to me :(

 

:anitongue:

 

LOL! They are trackable though... admitted under the first clause "tracking on geocaching.com" So I hereby degree that on the count of 3, with 2 being too quick and 4 being too long... 3 shall be the number....

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Tracking on geocaching.com

OR

a geocacher's personal coin

OR

The coin theme is caching related

 

If it doesn't have at least one of those elements, it's not a GEOcoin. It's just a coin.

 

If mine weren't trackable it would be argued by some they weren't geocoins then, even though they are to me :(

 

:anitongue:

 

LOL! They are trackable though... admitted under the first clause "tracking on geocaching.com" So I hereby degree that on the count of 3, with 2 being too quick and 4 being too long... 3 shall be the number....

 

Ha Ha, thats a coin we need for the forums: "I fart in your general direction!"

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In order to be an "official" geocoin, it must be in my collection. So, please ensure that you send one to me whenever you create one - especially if you want it to be "official" :ph34r:

 

More to the topic though.

 

I personally (and I *do* mean personally) only collect coins made by a cacher as a personal coin (name on coin) or by an organization related to caching. I far prefer face-to-face trades - as this mean I actually met the cacher, and I also don't like coins that are never intended to really be in a cache, but are created for the sole purpose of commercial sales and collecting.

 

That's just me.

 

As for what makes a proper "geocoin"? That's up in the air. To each their own. Personally, even if the Santa in the coin that started (re-started) this discussion has a GPS and an Ammo can - I still wouldn't want one in my collection. Unless I actually met Santa..... which would be cool.... except I've been known to be a little naughty - so maybe I should avoid him....

 

I've always found the geocoin craze to be a little odd - which is why I probably haven't been too active around geocoins since 2006 or so. It's a catch-22. On the one hand - I hope that there is so much coin-saturation that they lose their appeal and become a cache item rather than an object of desire. On the other hand, the subject matter in many coins seems truly odd. However, that's just me. I've seem wonderful coins that don't seem to be geo-related (Tiki's, Greenman, and more) and I've seen coins I hate that have ammo cans on them (names withheld - if you have nothing nice to say, don't say it....)

 

In the end. (whew!) - I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me - that means personals, face-to-face, and *some* geo-organizations.

 

I agree with all of this except the part I bolded. :unsure:

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A geocoin is made by a geocacher. There are coins out there for so many different things, it's amazing. Commemorative coins, military coins, group coins and so on.

It used to be that a geocoin was a coin that was geocaching related, or personal to the geocacher. Now there are so many made for their commercial value, or for benefits, or Holidays, or other hobbies, that we could probably just remove the geo from the word. We've sort of gotten away from the "geo" in geocoins. But that's just my own humble opinion as someone who has been in these forums since before they had their own forums.

 

I definitely agree with Eartha's thoughts here. I do think that we have gotten away from the "geo" in geocoins. To me just putting a tracking number on them doesn't make them a geocoin--the carosel horses come to mind as someone mentioned them. Too many commercial coins out there I think.

 

As Yime said I pretty much also collect what I like--peersonals, organizations, events and dog or animal related. Oh yeah if its red or shiny or pretty or precious!! LOL

 

 

When I first started collecting Geocoins, my definition would have been summed up by AtlantaGal's comments. Then the more I saw, I think my definition expanded to include Eartha's comments. However, now that I have met some Geocoin Fanatics both in person and through these forums, I feel like Geocoins are described by all of the above and most assuredly by TSuns's definition. Geocoins are definitely all of these things. In fact, I especially like TSun's astute observations and I whole-heartedly agree, especially when it comes to personal Geocoins. Personal coins, whether they reflect anything about Geocaching or Geocoins shouldn't really matter. Their coin(s) reflect who they are or what their interests entail and by placing that on a coin and presenting it to the Geocoin Community should be enough to qualify it as "Geocoin Related" :D

 

Very well said!!

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humm a good question What makes a Geocoin a geocoin??

i think if it is make by a cacher then it is a Geocoin, even it is trackable or just a personal or a mystery..

trackable coins are coins that you send in to world and they bring you a lot of good story`s that i find a real geocoin but i have just one personal non trackable coin and for me it is a geocoin also because it is made by a cacher and it shows the interest of that cacher, so for me it is also a real geocoin...and this mean also for the mystery coins.

 

anyway what does the word Geocoin means???

i think it has for everybody a other meaning it is just how someone see it.

i know just two kinds of coins and that are Geocoins and Euro coins......

with the Euro coins i buy Geocoins so what other coins i need what can make me happy-er???

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What Makes a Geocoin a Geocoin?

 

My stamp of approval? :blink:

 

 

I've thought for quite a while now that most of the geocoins that are coming out have absolutely nothing to do with caching so wondered why they are called geocoins. (Boy that sure sounds like a certain oldtimer here doesn't it? :sad: )

 

 

:huh::):D:D

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Hunk of metal with tracking number. If it a geocoin or a just a trackable?

 

To me that seems rather far fetched to be called a coin so it would just be a trackable item in my eyes.

 

Well...this opens a can of worms :D

 

If we break it into two parts "Geo" and "Coin" - define each separately, and then attempt to combine....

 

There are many "shaped" "coins" - they aren't really coins are they? Yet they tend to fall into the category of geocoins and are recognized as such within the hobby of geocoin collecting and caching. From what I understand, the first shaped "coin" was created as a bit of a joke and was intended as a signature item and not strictly a "coin", but was a play-on-words based upon the cachers name.

 

I guess it depends on how you define the "hunk" of metal. Is it minted with a cachers name on it? Is it minted with a fuzzy bunny and nothing at all to do with geocaching?

 

At least in theory, it would be impossible to get a hunk of metal with a tracking number on it - you need to get any minted products design approved by Groundspeak and then get the tracking numbers for them. You could, of course transfer the tracking number from a TB Tag or an existing coin to the hunk of metal, but you couldn't buy a bunch of numbers for whatever item you want. This is probably a quality control issue to prevent tracking numbers on "questionable" designs or items. (yes...you *could* attach a TB tag to almost anything)

 

Kealia has a point.

 

A geocoin is whatever the person looking at it decides it is.

 

For me at least, there are many "so-called" geocoins that don't meet my personal criteria for what I want. Some are even in my collection!

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Hunk of metal with tracking number. If it a geocoin or a just a trackable?

 

To me that seems rather far fetched to be called a coin so it would just be a trackable item in my eyes.

 

I guess it depends on how you define the "hunk" of metal. Is it minted with a cachers name on it? Is it minted with a fuzzy bunny and nothing at all to do with geocaching?

 

At least in theory, it would be impossible to get a hunk of metal with a tracking number on it - you need to get any minted products design approved by Groundspeak and then get the tracking numbers for them. You could, of course transfer the tracking number from a TB Tag or an existing coin to the hunk of metal, but you couldn't buy a bunch of numbers for whatever item you want. This is probably a quality control issue to prevent tracking numbers on "questionable" designs or items. (yes...you *could* attach a TB tag to almost anything)

 

 

I think this is probably the "hunk of metal" that Atwell Family was referring to

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=208839

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Not to rain on anyones parade, but that is a perfect example of something I would not consider a "geo" object in any way.

 

- there's no attachment to a specific cacher or organization

- there is no relationship to GPS, exploration, or "caching"

 

It has a barely existent connection to the concept of "treasure hunting", but that's weak at best. The whole "caching as a treasure hunt" is something that is pretty tentative to begin with. It's more hide and seek in most cases.

 

If it brings joy to the folks that find/collect it - then that's cool. Personally, it would be no different from any trackable I would find - matchbox car, fuzzy bunny - it's just minted rather than attached.

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I been wondering... if I get a wooden nickel made with my personal logo (I'm not a business) to drop into caches, is that too low-rent and cheesy? If the look is cool, would anyone think they were nice and worth collecting? I'm poor, on disability, so I can't afford to be putting a ten dollar item into every cache.

 

And if it IS something others would find interesting, is there a word I could use on the coin to signal to others that it wasn't just some stray bar token? I wouldn't want to have it say "geocoin," and get laughed at :laughing:

 

Any suggestions?

 

(I was thinking of leaving one of my own little hand-made sculptures in each cache, but I don't make them all that quickly.)

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I been wondering... if I get a wooden nickel made with my personal logo (I'm not a business) to drop into caches, is that too low-rent and cheesy? If the look is cool, would anyone think they were nice and worth collecting? I'm poor, on disability, so I can't afford to be putting a ten dollar item into every cache.

 

And if it IS something others would find interesting, is there a word I could use on the coin to signal to others that it wasn't just some stray bar token? I wouldn't want to have it say "geocoin," and get laughed at :laughing:

 

Any suggestions?

 

(I was thinking of leaving one of my own little hand-made sculptures in each cache, but I don't make them all that quickly.)

 

Wooden nickels are wooden nickels... IMO... Not geocoins.. they're cool.. but not geocoins.

 

Wooden nickels are a great alternative to geocoins though, check this thread out ...

 

Wooden Nickel Thread Link ... Click Here

 

I have had them professionally made, I've bought wooden nickel blanks and made ones that way and I have gone out and cut nickels from limbs I've trimmed from my yard. They can be pricey or dirt cheap... like most things. Whatever way you choose, they'll be your creations to share.

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Poppin in here late :laughing: but id say ANYTHING made with the intentions of it being a Geocoin IS a Geocoin! No matter whats on it...doesnt have to be trackable, just a coin minted or handmade specifically as a GEOCOIN. Anyting else is just a coin.

 

Guess theres a fine line between geocoins and sigs, but we all have our own boundries as far as that goes.

 

Funny this topic got brought up... I know of a personal coin (That MANY have on their seeking and keeping list) that isnt even a geocoin at all. Actually came from a kids game/toy and i found it at a Salvation Army Garage sell with the sticker on the back.

Its listed on the trading sites and have never heard of it being spoke of, but its NOT a geocoin, but merely a sig item and not really even that!

Not sure of their intentions, but as soon as I found it, I knew exactly what it was...or wasnt :D

 

Its an older coin, but just be aware that they are out there. Dont feel comfortable mentioning it publically, although I should beacuse I did <_< ... If anyone really wants to know, you can send me an email.

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