+Emaxxe Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 The issue I am writing about is caches mark for find but requiring special equipment… I am referring to caches requiring A BOAT to access. I am sure your aware and agree that when you drive or walk great distances just to find you need a boat to complete the task is disheartening to say the least... This happens frequently ... Especially if you live any where near water.... What I am proposing is a new category for type of cache, we currently have several so one more shouldn’t be that hard As you know a category can easily be distinguished, via the web, GSAK or your personal GPA as that icon showing the type your looking for .... ie traditional or multi We have the traditional cache, the multi cache, the unknown cache?, the wherego...... What we need is one that you can easily identify for boat required caching, ie a boat icon Creating an icon of a boat to or other notation showing that you need a boat to access cache? Is it in the works now or near future for the following … I know that I and many other cachers would welcome such a notification prior to the unnecessary trip for nothing… Sincerely, emaxxe Link to comment
+m.austin Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I'm just curious - was "special equipment needed" marked as an attribute? There is a boat attribute that the cache owner should have marked if you needed a boat to get to the cache. Or a mention in the description. I would be annoyed at the CO if you had to have a boat to get to the cache & it wasn't marked anywhere on the cache page. I would be annoyed at myself if the CO marked the page & I just didn't look. Link to comment
+m.austin Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) Edited because I obviously thought that my response was so inspiring I posted it twice! Edited November 13, 2008 by m.austin Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) ...I am referring to caches requiring A BOAT to access. I am sure your aware and agree that when you drive or walk great distances just to find you need a boat to complete the task is disheartening to say the least... This happens frequently ... Especially if you live any where near water....... All of those kinds that I have seen said it clearly in the cache description. All of those also showed up quite clearly on an island on the maps I use. For those who like to hunt blind, this is a good example of assuming the risk of not reading the description. For that problem I propose a different solution. An "This cache is not available to anyone who doesn't read the description" button. That way you won't be annoyed when you get there and find you should have done your homework, I won't be annoyed that someone could not be bothered to do their homework to begin with thus screwing up my hard work. Edited November 13, 2008 by Renegade Knight Link to comment
+ArcherDragoon Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I don't think another category is the answer...seems to be a matter of people actually using what is already available to them when creating a cache page. That being said, most of the caches around one of your most recent finds seem to be fairly clear in the description if a boat is required...I would say your "reccent experince" with an unclear cache would be more related to the person placing the cache then it is related to anything else... Link to comment
Skippermark Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 If a boat is required, cache owners should be rating the cache a 5 terrain. When you see a 5 terrain cache, you should know something special is going on and read the cache description carefully. If a boat is required, the owner may (or may not) choose to include the "boat required" attribute. If they choose not to mention anything about a boat being required, fire up the satellite maps and look at them. If you see that the cache is in the middle of a lake, you can be pretty sure that's why it's a 5 terrain. Link to comment
Skippermark Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Wanted to add that the categories are for cache types, not for if special equipment is needed. A traditional is a single stage, go to the spot and find the container. A multi has a few parts and so on for each type. A cache requiring special equipment would fall into one of the existing categories. Just like a single stage climbing cache hanging on the side of a cliff. Just because one needs ropes and other gear to get the cache, doesn't mean it's still not a traditional. It's a traditional that just happens to need special equipment to get to. Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 (edited) What is is with new cache types all of a sudden being the prefered solution for every problem? As it stands now if a boat is required to get to a cache it should be rated a 5 star terrain and the Boat Required attribute should be used. Certainly there may be cache owners who fail to do one or both of these, but why would you think that they would then use a Boat Required cache type if there was one. Maybe there should only be two cache types. Cache is a traditional hide at the posted coordinates, requiring no special tools or preparation, and can be found by paperless/connectionless geocachers who don't want to be bothered reading the cache page before hunting the cache. RTFP (read the frickin' page) Edited November 13, 2008 by tozainamboku Link to comment
+vw_k Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 What skippermark said. If a boat is required to access a cache, it should be mentioned in the cache description, and should have this symbol in the attributes. Link to comment
+Prime Suspect Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 What we need is one that you can easily identify for boat required caching, ie a boat icon Creating an icon of a boat to or other notation showing that you need a boat to access cache? And what's wrong with the one we already have? Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 What we need is one that you can easily identify for boat required caching, ie a boat icon Creating an icon of a boat to or other notation showing that you need a boat to access cache? And what's wrong with the one we already have? Here are some caches I looked up, in the OP's area with a 5 star terrain rating and get this the boat icon. GC181H4 GC1BM74 GC7CD9 To the OP, do you even bother to look at the cache pages, before you go looking for geocaches? Could this be a case of poor preparation on your part, rather than a geocaching website problem? Link to comment
+Isonzo Karst Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Dang, you guys are jumping on the OP. I've sure found boat caches that had neither the boat attribute or the correct terrain rating. Annoying. I agree that nothing new is needed. Either use the correct terrain rating, or the boat attribute, or both! But there are older caches that are just wrong, and some newer. I review in an area with a lot of boat caches. I STRONGLY encourage cachers to rate correctly on boat caches. But it's not a guidelines violation. So if they don't edit the terrain rating, the cache still gets published. (Ditto on terrain 1 and wheelchair access). Link to comment
+ArcherDragoon Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 What we need is one that you can easily identify for boat required caching, ie a boat icon Creating an icon of a boat to or other notation showing that you need a boat to access cache? And what's wrong with the one we already have? Here are some caches I looked up, in the OP's area with a 5 star terrain rating and get this the boat icon. GC181H4 GC1BM74 GC7CD9 To the OP, do you even bother to look at the cache pages, before you go looking for geocaches? Could this be a case of poor preparation on your part, rather than a geocaching website problem? GC181H4: No Icons and only 4.5 Terrain...but the description does state going down river from the Boat Launch...at least as of the typing of this post... Link to comment
+briansnat Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 We don't need a new cache type, we just need cache owners to full out their cache pages correctly. Link to comment
+WatchDog2020 Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 (edited) Boat, we need no stinkin Boat - I ignored the little and decided to Swim It - Yes I'm not too bright If you're not sure of the location - Google earth is your best friend (well, besides my dog) Edited November 15, 2008 by WatchDog2020 Link to comment
+edscott Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 Boat, we need no stinkin Boat - I ignored the little and decided to Swim It - Yes I'm not too bright If you're not sure of the location - Google earth is your best friend (well, besides my dog) Yes look at a map. Around here I have found that most of the "boat required" caches can be done without the boat with a bit of innovative route choice. Sometimes that means waiting for a mid summer drought or mid winter ice, but more often it means thrashing through a jungle of briars, mosquitos, and poison ivy in order to avoid loading the canoe on the car. A couple months ago I bought a Kayak. Now I'm ready for the new ones that appear in this area each spring. Link to comment
+GrnXnham Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 BOAT CACHES ARE ELITIST! Oops...sorry...wrong topic. Link to comment
+Emaxxe Posted November 20, 2008 Author Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) For those who cant think out of the box This is a Traditional cache look This is a Boat cache look <just to let you know you need a boat> GSAK View top with Boat cache look Look at the example "The Road Less Traveled" The same icon would also be used on your GPSr too... It has nothing to do with poor planning... It does how ever have to do with spontaneity and thinking out of the box... Just having your GPSr and an icon to go by... The rest is finding something with just the basic knowledge of the game.... Enjoy.... Emaxxe 1185 finds since 15 Jan 08 ArcherDragoon 1675 finds since 2 Aug 03 'Kit Fox' 1302 finds since 28 Feb 04 Hummm... but maybe thats why it took you so long? Prime Suspect 800 finds since 8 Feb 01 What we need is one that you can easily identify for boat required caching, ie a boat icon Creating an icon of a boat to or other notation showing that you need a boat to access cache? And what's wrong with the one we already have? Here are some caches I looked up, in the OP's area with a 5 star terrain rating and get this the boat icon. GC181H4 GC1BM74 GC7CD9 To the OP, do you even bother to look at the cache pages, before you go looking for geocaches? Could this be a case of poor preparation on your part, rather than a geocaching website problem? GC181H4: No Icons and only 4.5 Terrain...but the description does state going down river from the Boat Launch...at least as of the typing of this post... Edited November 20, 2008 by Emaxxe Link to comment
+Kit Fox Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) It has nothing to do with poor planning... It does how ever have to do with spontaneity and thinking out of the box... Just having your GPSr and an icon to go by... Their is no reason for a new icon, because cachers can't be bothered to research geocaches before they hunt them. This is poor planning, not an excuse to create a new icon to suit your style of geocaching. The rest is finding something with just the basic knowledge of the game.... Enjoy....Emaxxe 1185 finds since 15 Jan 08 ArcherDragoon 1675 finds since 2 Aug 03 'Kit Fox' 1302 finds since 28 Feb 04 Hummm... but maybe thats why it took you so long to find the amount you did? Prime Suspect 800 finds since 8 Feb 01 When I started caching, micro spew was in its infancy. I happen to abstain from most park and grabs micros. I'd rather go hunting, hiking, and fishing than lift lamppost covers when I go caching. Having a small children, with plenty of weekend activities has curtailed most of my free time. I'm much happier hiking for a couple of caches, rather than driving from parking lot to guardrail chasing micros. If you like to compare stats lets compare our hides. Friendly comparison, not a personal attack. 80% of your hides are micros 83% of my physical cache hides are small to large caches (17% micros) 12% of your 65 hides are regular sized caches 27% of my 122 hides are regular to large sized caches. 21 being ammo cans 30cal, 50 cal, and two super sized ammo cans. Most of your hides are park and grabs, most of my caches are park and hikes. My average word count for my logs is 41.5 words, how about you? Edited November 20, 2008 by Kit Fox Link to comment
+Team Black-Cat Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The name of the cache is "Another Porter River Cache"?!? Oh... That's right. Just coords and icons. We need a TREE icon too. And a CLIFF icon and a SCUBA icon and a..... Link to comment
+webscouter. Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Enjoy.... Emaxxe 1185 finds since 15 Jan 08 ArcherDragoon 1675 finds since 2 Aug 03 'Kit Fox' 1302 finds since 28 Feb 04 Hummm... but maybe thats why it took you so long? Prime Suspect 800 finds since 8 Feb 01 Mmmm, Three of the most influential cachers denigrated for disagreeing with the OP. Who would I rather cache with? ArcherDragoon, Kit Fox or Prime Suspect. Who do I think probably has a better handle on what caching is? ArcherDragoon, Kit Fox or Prime Suspect. Who's caches would I rather hunt? ArcherDragoon, Kit Fox or Prime Suspect. Who is better equipped if they get stuck out on a cache hunt in the middle of the woods? I suspect ArcherDragoon, Kit Fox or Prime Suspect. webscouter.. 3299 finds on 3299 caches in 49 states, three countries in 5 years. Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 (edited) For those who cant think out of the box [snip] Emaxxe 1185 finds since 15 Jan 08 ArcherDragoon 1675 finds since 2 Aug 03 'Kit Fox' 1302 finds since 28 Feb 04 Hummm... but maybe thats why it took you so long? Prime Suspect 800 finds since 8 Feb 01 That's great logic, You've found a bunch of caches in a short period of time so you know more than people who have been around much longer and know the history. You happen to live in an area where they are a substantial number of caches that require a boat. Others may live where there are caches that require 4 wheel drive vehicles, or climbing gear, or the chance you might find a snake or have to bushwhack through poison plants or need flashlight, etc. etc. etc. As people have taken advantage of Pocket Queries (which we didn't always have) some began to go caching "blind". Instead of reading the cache page before they left home they would just load up a bunch of caches in their GPS and go looking. But even in the "olden" days, many found the need to have "special" requirements called out, and some geocacher came up with The Selector to represent these as icons so that you would know at a glance if you needed a boat or anything else that was important to know. When PQs came along, Geocaching.com realized that they needed to have a way to make this information searchable and included in a pocket query. Unfortunate it took them at least a year to get filtering on the attributes to work and they still haven't included the attributes in the PQ results. IF THE ATTRIBUTES WERE INCLUDED, YOU COULD USE GSAK TO CHANGE THE ICON TO WHATEVER YOU WANT. What you really should be asking for is for Geocaching.com to include the existing attributes in the PQ. Then each user could use the information in the way that was best for them. What you can do as a workaround is to exclude boat caches from your PQ - or run a separate PQ for just boat required and use GSAK to change the icon on these caches before merging them with your regular query. The problem with creating new cache types to solve every problem like this it that soon we would have many cache types and some caches may logically belong to several types (since they have several requirements or warnings that someone might want to have a special icon for). Cachers that have been around a long time remember when you had to read the page. That may be why it took me 2 years to find my first 1000 caches. So the old timers will not be impressed with your numbers. There are a lot of caches today that can be found without reading the page. Some people may not even consider these caches not worthy of being counted. I can understand that some people prefer the new way of caching, just loading the caches in the GPSr and heading out to look for the caches in the GPSr whenever the mood strikes them. This group has already succeeded in getting caches with additional logging requirements listed as mystery/unknown. Perhaps you can suggest that all terrain 5 caches that require special equipment also be listed mystery/unknown. Or maybe Geocaching.com can implement my previous suggetsion Maybe there should only be two cache types. Cache is a traditional hide at the posted coordinates, requiring no special tools or preparation, and can be found by paperless/connectionless geocachers who don't want to be bothered reading the cache page before hunting the cache. RTFP (read the frickin' page) I think the better answer is to leave things as they are (regarding cache type) and ask for the attributes to be included in the PQ results as has been promised. Edited November 20, 2008 by tozainamboku Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 What skippermark said. If a boat is required to access a cache, it should be mentioned in the cache description, and should have this symbol in the attributes. Since this thread is all about caches which require a boat I'll chime in with my standard boat safety spiel. IMHO, the simple addition of the boat icon is not enough. The mandatory 5 star terrain designation for caches which require a boat is the general requirement for caches which require special equipment and/or skills to retrieve. Owning a boat is only part of the requirement for safely retrieving a boat only cache. The other is the skill required to navigate it to/from wherever the cache may be hidden. I don't know why it is but with the proliferation of recreational kayaks sold, in many instances by someone that may have never even paddled a kayak, as a safe and stable beginners kayak, there are lots of people buying them that don't even seem to consider that there are skills which should be learned and knowledge acquired which will reduce the risk of a potentially life threatening incident. Most common is the new kayak/canoe owner that goes out in the early spring, dressed for the air temperature instead of the water (and typically is wearing cotton), is not wearing a PFD, or has checked the weather, and is unaware how little wind it might take to turn a relatively small lake/reservoir from a calm paddle into conditions which become very difficult in which to avoid a capsize. Most probably have no idea what to do if they *do* capsize. What I find scary are boat caches posted by owners that don't even seem to realize the risks involved in retrieving it. If someone is going to put out a cache that is "extreme" in nature they should fully understand the risks involved for anyone seeking that cache and clearly communicate those risks in the cache description. Link to comment
+Glenn Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) The name of the cache is "Another Porter River Cache"?!? Oh... That's right. Just coords and icons. We need a TREE icon too. And a CLIFF icon and a SCUBA icon and a..... No, we just need one new icon. For those who never took the time to read and understand the guidelines for listing a cache but decide to place a cache anyways. There is already a check box on the report a cache page for it. Just have the new icon automatically applied if the box is left unchecked. Edited November 21, 2008 by Glenn Link to comment
+Team Black-Cat Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Ok, I'll give you that, Glenn. The cache picked as an example was listed as a 4.5 terrain instead of of 5. On the other hand, anyone that hunts a 4.5 cache without reading the listing is being irresponsible. And, in the case of the OP, the terrain rating doesn't show up on his GPSr, so it doesn't matter what's on the listing page. Link to comment
+KJcachers Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 (edited) The OP used GSAK as an example to see his new icon but if he was running split screen viewing he could have read the whole info page right in GSAK. I run iPodnotes Macro out of GSAK and have the entire page info with me when I cache as well. As the Boy Scouts say... "Always Be Prepared" before caching! Edit: being the helpful guy I am I threw a "needs maintenance" requesting the difficulty be changed to 5 and a needs boat attribute on the main page of the cache in question. Let's see how long it takes for the cache owner to tell me where to go! Edited November 21, 2008 by KJcachers Link to comment
+Emaxxe Posted November 21, 2008 Author Share Posted November 21, 2008 Thank you for your replies and I am glad to see every one has their own opinion too... Also, a Thank You to Kit Fox for humoring my remarks and helping to get this suggestion moving... I truly hope i did not really offend any of you, and if I have I do apologize. But I did extend to spark a debate on caches in general... Because when people run to the end of their prepared list of caches and want to go get the two or three more just 5 more miles away... they should have a reasonable hint that it is possible for them to do so.... I really dont consisder my self any where close to the caliber some of the older cachers. I do enjoy the knowledge and expertise they bring to the sport. But I too, do love the game but still have a lot to learn and skills to hone... And you are all correct as original cachers your knowledge of the hunt is more detailed and for that i do admire you all. Also you are correct to say that when over 80 % of today’s caches are 2star or less and the original caches were much harder... Thus the majority of caches today are much simpler and much more numerous... thus the counts are higher as expected… I being an older cacher could not compete with some of the youner ones but that does not mean that I dont enjoy the hunt as much... For you to say I go caching unprepared it also true... I very much enjoy going to a site with just cords not knowing exactly what I am looking for and thru the process of elimination find a multi cache... I do admit this does not happen as much as I would like but it does happen... But that is the way i like to go... Thus the Icons for boat showing on caches, is logical... And could save many cachers unnecessary trips into the wild... Not saying they are not enjoyed but I know i would much rather have had a chance to find it. I feel that these icons would be easily implemented and well used…. And ask for your support in implementing them... I do under stand that there can be too many such icons. And there is a fine line between just right and too many... It just makes more sense to me to have an icon on top of the pile where it does the most good. Instead of having to seach for it in the middle of the deck, just because you know it could be there... Now I did like the scuba icon though… for I do love to dive. Thank you all for your input on this suggestion. I hope that you will now think about the possibilities for this suggestion. Then in a few days or weeks and shed more thought on this subject... If it comes to pass that it is adopted and used that will be great.... If not that will be great too... Sincerely Emaxxe Link to comment
+KJcachers Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 owner added attributes to the cache page in question. I invited him to join the thread. Link to comment
+Quiggle Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Moving this feature request to the website forum. Link to comment
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