What Gives?

24.7k · November 12, 2008

Saw a thread closed. It appears that someone talked about a coin that could be talked about, but apparently it was too soon to talk about it. That's not a forum rule that I'm aware of. Then there seemed to be an issue of who's authorized to talk about a coin at what point in time. Again that's not a geocoin forum constraint that I'm aware of.

Please mods, clarify. Who can talk about a coin at what point in a coins life cycle? I'm not sure that the coin owner has any right whatsoever to control others conversations about their coins.

November 12, 2008

Sounded like it was something personal between those two. Kinda strange to have both threads closed. I assume this one will close too.

5.8k · November 12, 2008

Having extensive experience in other sections of these forums, I can say with a fair degree of confidance that "Clarification" will not be coming. I didn't see any rule violations in those closed threads either, but perhaps a misunderstanding, and some lack of flexibility. The only reason I could see to have closed that first thread was if the coin maker had asked for that, but if that was the case, it should have been mentioned in the closing post.

3.6k · November 12, 2008

The way I read it is that it's up to the coin maker to announce a coin's sale to the forums. In this case the coin maker did not wish to make such an announcement so the OP of the first closed thread went against the coin maker's wishes. Egos got bruised and tempers flared. End of story IMO.

8.8k · November 12, 2008

I never said the coin couldn't be talked about. The thread was posted as an announcement. The last person to post a thread like that ended up raked over the coals because the coin was not delivered and that person was getting some angry emails, even though they had nothing to do with the making of the coin. So, I tried to explain to the OP this time that it is common courtesy to let the people producing the coins make the announcement. From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales. No where did I say the coin couldn't be discussed.

8.9k · November 12, 2008

I never said the coin couldn't be talked about. The thread was posted as an announcement. The last person to post a thread like that ended up raked over the coals because the coin was not delivered and that person was getting some angry emails, even though they had nothing to do with the making of the coin. So, I tried to explain to the OP this time that it is common courtesy to let the people producing the coins make the announcement. From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales. No where did I say the coin couldn't be discussed.

THANKS for the clarification....but, when it's fairly obvious the people producing the coin don't come in and make the announcement, why not let someone else make it? I'm sure RSG is a big girl and can handle whatever flak comes her way if there's trouble with the coin! Isn't it up to the OP to take that risk?

You said yourself, and even posted a comment from the company's profile, that the company doesn't announce their coin releases, wouldn't it be OK for RSG to make that announcement?

Also, did you PM or email RSG this explanation? Because I didn't see it and am wondering if it was conveyed privately so she understood the exact reason...as I saw it, she took it personal.

I understood how RSG felt and saw her as upset because you closed her down (which is really kind of a slap in the face when it happens), but instead of answering her question, she was given a vacation? Sure, she could have worded her complaint a bit better, but she was upset....

Edited November 12, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

8.8k · November 12, 2008

I won't discuss warnings given to forum users, but I will say that warning was not given for discussing that coin, or opening that thread.

9.8k · November 12, 2008

One shouldn't get mouthy with a moderator. That's a guaranteed ticket to a vacation from the forums.

Just my $.02

November 13, 2008

One shouldn't get mouthy with a moderator. That's a guaranteed ticket to a vacation from the forums.

Just my $.02

Ditto that.

November 13, 2008

One shouldn't get mouthy with a moderator. That's a guaranteed ticket to a vacation from the forums.

Just my $.02

That's true most of the time, but not always. Mods do their best to govern how they see fit, but that doesn't mean they're always right. They are human. I do appreciate what they do especially since they're volunteering their time.

3k · November 13, 2008

From Coins and Pins own profile page:

QUOTE

I enjoy hiking, snowboarding, and exploring abandoned buildings, caves, and mines. I also enjoy metal detecting. I am a coin maker and love making Geocoins as well as other custom coins, but I don't broadcast this across the forums. You may visit my web site at www.CoinsAndPins.com, but I will not solicit coin business on the forums in order to respect the Groundspeak rules and just plain general ethics. Also as a geocacher, I want the forums to remain a place to discuss caching and not become a commercial forum. Commercialism would take all the fun out of it. However, I will occasionally answer general questions about the manufacturing process.

Thread closed.

Okay, I really want to understand this one better. Honestly Eartha, this is in NO WAY AN ATTACK on your person, but this is what I'm seeing and it raises some questions.

1) A coin manufacture releases a coin and announces it to the world on his website.

2) Said manufacturer won't personally make an announcement, but encourages the forums to discuss the aspects of caching (which geocoins are).

3) A cacher, interested in geocoins (an aspect of caching to which this thread is dedicated) notices a new coin and shares that information with us.

4) The "announcement" doesn't seem to have prices, in-depth info or even a link to the seller.

So unless the manufacturer requested the thread be closed I'm wonder on what basis was it done? I wonder in particular because I happen to do quite a bit of designing for some coin companies (who don't generally announce their releases) and so do the announcing myself. Am I breaking a rule I'm not aware of? Are moderators authorized to make those calls? FSM keeps telling me they don't have that kind of authority so I'm really confused now.

8.9k · November 13, 2008

One shouldn't get mouthy with a moderator. That's a guaranteed ticket to a vacation from the forums.

Just my $.02

That's true most of the time, but not always. Mods do their best to govern how they see fit, but that doesn't mean they're always right. They are human. I do appreciate what they do especially since they're volunteering their time.

I'm living proof you can have a debate or even have a difference of opinion with our friendly mods, it's just when you step out of line when you risk the vacations. Mods are people too, they cache, they engage in the discussions, they have their own views! I have been on my fair share of the opposite end of the debate with our mods, disagreeing isn't automatically a ticket to a vacation, it's debate!

Now, get loud with them, call them out, or just post nasty comment and then you'll know where the line is drawn!

8.9k · November 13, 2008

From Coins and Pins own profile page:

QUOTE

I enjoy hiking, snowboarding, and exploring abandoned buildings, caves, and mines. I also enjoy metal detecting. I am a coin maker and love making Geocoins as well as other custom coins, but I don't broadcast this across the forums. You may visit my web site at www.CoinsAndPins.com, but I will not solicit coin business on the forums in order to respect the Groundspeak rules and just plain general ethics. Also as a geocacher, I want the forums to remain a place to discuss caching and not become a commercial forum. Commercialism would take all the fun out of it. However, I will occasionally answer general questions about the manufacturing process.

Thread closed.

Okay, I really want to understand this one better. Honestly Eartha, this is in NO WAY AN ATTACK on your person, but this is what I'm seeing and it raises some questions.

1) A coin manufacture releases a coin and announces it to the world on his website.

2) Said manufacturer won't personally make an announcement, but encourages the forums to discuss the aspects of caching (which geocoins are).

3) A cacher, interested in geocoins (an aspect of caching to which this thread is dedicated) notices a new coin and shares that information with us.

4) The "announcement" doesn't seem to have prices, in-depth info or even a link to the seller.

So unless the manufacturer requested the thread be closed I'm wonder on what basis was it done? I wonder in particular because I happen to do quite a bit of designing for some coin companies (who don't generally announce their releases) and so do the announcing myself. Am I breaking a rule I'm not aware of? Are moderators authorized to make those calls? FSM keeps telling me they don't have that kind of authority so I'm really confused now.

THANKS for this post, I had the same question but didn't word it nearly as well as you!

2.2k · November 13, 2008

Are moderators authorized to make those calls? FSM keeps telling me they don't have that kind of authority so I'm really confused now.

Um, I don't recall ever saying that so I'm not sure how to respond to that comment.

On the whole, Eartha never said that one person COULDN'T talk about somebody else's coin. She mentioned that you SHOULDN'T announce somebody else's coin. There are instances in the past where person A announced a coin that they had nothing to do with. When said coin had issues (like so many seem to these days) that person took a lot of flak when they didn't need to.

Along those same lines, what if you designed a coin that you were really proud of and somebody else announced it and stole your thunder? It was a suggestion, not a directive and then the thread quickly went downhill - that's why it was closed.

3k · November 13, 2008

Are moderators authorized to make those calls? FSM keeps telling me they don't have that kind of authority so I'm really confused now.

Um, I don't recall ever saying that so I'm not sure how to respond to that comment.

On the whole, Eartha never said that one person COULDN'T talk about somebody else's coin. She mentioned that you SHOULDN'T announce somebody else's coin. There are instances in the past where person A announced a coin that they had nothing to do with. When said coin had issues (like so many seem to these days) that person took a lot of flak when they didn't need to.

Along those same lines, what if you designed a coin that you were really proud of and somebody else announced it and stole your thunder? It was a suggestion, not a directive and then the thread quickly went downhill - that's why it was closed.

These are your exact words to me...

The "moderator" tag, when stating opinions, carries no more or less weight than anybody else.

Eartha stated her opinion (which she is entitled to and it looked to be apparently out of kindness and concern) and followed up by stating "What if they didn't want it announced here? The cat was already let out of the bag. It's really up to the maker to announce their sales." Seriously? A geocoin manufacturer makes a coin, announces it to the world online, but doesn't want people to know over in the forums?

To assume you know what the maker wants unless told specifically by the maker (about this particular instance) is opinion. The thread went down hill because a cacher had a difference of opinion. That's not a crime. It is in fact the very basis of the ideal of Forum. To close a thread based on a difference of opinion (which you already said quite specifically MOD opinion carries no more or less weight than anybody elses) is looking to rest of us like a blatant abuse of authority. I'm not saying she wasn't contacted, but we aren't seeing anything other than my-way-or-the-highway gestapo-like action. It's both frightening and insulting.

To answer your question though, I have made coins and have had other people come out and announce them. I didn't see any warnings to those people. I do see a blatant double-standard now though so thank you for pointing it out.

edit to add: The only thing in the profile that even suggested the idea that their coins shouldn't appear in the forums was SPECIFICALLY for solicitation. To state that one agrees to follow Groundspeak rules is not at all suggestive that their coins aren't allowed to be talked about.

Edited November 13, 2008 by fox-and-the-hound

1.1k · November 13, 2008

thxSMwellexplained

Re: the thunder stealing : i think most personal geocoins don't actually get announced here as they aren't trackable and there's a fair few trackables that don't either! Contacting the owner to see if it's ok to 'announce' a coin might work but i'd really just love to see a good photo and a 'here's what i found/traded for' and i haven't seen a thread on it - AZtraveller springs to mind

and some of those mystery coins!

Are moderators authorized to make those calls? FSM keeps telling me they don't have that kind of authority so I'm really confused now.

Um, I don't recall ever saying that so I'm not sure how to respond to that comment.

On the whole, Eartha never said that one person COULDN'T talk about somebody else's coin. She mentioned that you SHOULDN'T announce somebody else's coin. There are instances in the past where person A announced a coin that they had nothing to do with. When said coin had issues (like so many seem to these days) that person took a lot of flak when they didn't need to.

Along those same lines, what if you designed a coin that you were really proud of and somebody else announced it and stole your thunder? It was a suggestion, not a directive and then the thread quickly went downhill - that's why it was closed.

Edited November 13, 2008 by forthferalz

2.2k · November 13, 2008

These are your exact words to me...

The "moderator" tag, when stating opinions, carries no more or less weight than anybody else.

Eartha stated her opinion (which she is entitled to and it looked to be apparently out of kindness and concern) and followed up by stating "What if they didn't want it announced here? The cat was already let out of the bag. It's really up to the maker to announce their sales." Seriously? A geocoin manufacturer makes a coin, announces it to the world online, but doesn't want people to know over in the forums?

To assume you know what the maker wants unless told specifically by the maker (about this particular instance) is opinion. The thread went down hill because a cacher had a difference of opinion. That's not a crime. It is in fact the very basis of the ideal of Forum. To close a thread based on a difference of opinion (which you already said quite specifically MOD opinion carries no more or less weight than anybody elses) is looking to rest of us like a blatant abuse of authority. I'm not saying she wasn't contacted, but we aren't seeing anything other than my-way-or-the-highway gestapo-like action. It's both frightening and insulting.

To answer your question though, I have made coins and have had other people come out and announce them. I didn't see any warnings to those people. I do see a blatant double-standard now though so thank you for pointing it out.

edit to add: The only thing in the profile that even suggested the idea that their coins shouldn't appear in the forums was SPECIFICALLY for solicitation. To state that one agrees to follow Groundspeak rules is not at all suggestive that their coins aren't allowed to be talked about.

I'm not going to take the bait and get into a debate so I will say this:

- A moderator's opinion on a SUBJECT is worth no more or less than anybody else's.

- A moderator's opinion on HOW the forums are run and what is/isn't acceptable is their job. You may or may not agree with these opinions or judgement calls, and that's your right. It doesn't mean that you can go against them, but you don't have to like or agree with them.

- As Eartha stated, we do not talk about private communciations, warnings, suspensions, etc.

- Yes, you've had coins come out in the PAST that others have announced BEFORE there were issues around this. The forums are fluid, as are the guidelines to keep up with changes (cointests, missions, etc.). We try to react to the current situation as best we can keeping in mind that things change. (See the recent pre-sales issues as an example. 6 months ago pre-sales were well received. Not so much anymore).

If you'd like to continue the discussion, please contact me offline so this discussion can be more in general about "who can/should announce another person's coin". I don't want this thread to be about one specific instance, nor so I wish to debate forum policies.

If things were really as bad as some of you thought, wouldn't this thread have been shut down already?

3k · November 13, 2008

These are your exact words to me...

The "moderator" tag, when stating opinions, carries no more or less weight than anybody else.

Eartha stated her opinion (which she is entitled to and it looked to be apparently out of kindness and concern) and followed up by stating "What if they didn't want it announced here? The cat was already let out of the bag. It's really up to the maker to announce their sales." Seriously? A geocoin manufacturer makes a coin, announces it to the world online, but doesn't want people to know over in the forums?

To assume you know what the maker wants unless told specifically by the maker (about this particular instance) is opinion. The thread went down hill because a cacher had a difference of opinion. That's not a crime. It is in fact the very basis of the ideal of Forum. To close a thread based on a difference of opinion (which you already said quite specifically MOD opinion carries no more or less weight than anybody elses) is looking to rest of us like a blatant abuse of authority. I'm not saying she wasn't contacted, but we aren't seeing anything other than my-way-or-the-highway gestapo-like action. It's both frightening and insulting.

To answer your question though, I have made coins and have had other people come out and announce them. I didn't see any warnings to those people. I do see a blatant double-standard now though so thank you for pointing it out.

edit to add: The only thing in the profile that even suggested the idea that their coins shouldn't appear in the forums was SPECIFICALLY for solicitation. To state that one agrees to follow Groundspeak rules is not at all suggestive that their coins aren't allowed to be talked about.

I'm not going to take the bait and get into a debate so I will say this:

- A moderator's opinion on a SUBJECT is worth no more or less than anybody else's.

- A moderator's opinion on HOW the forums are run and what is/isn't acceptable is their job. You may or may not agree with these opinions or judgement calls, and that's your right. It doesn't mean that you can go against them, but you don't have to like or agree with them.

- As Eartha stated, we do not talk about private communciations, warnings, suspensions, etc.

- Yes, you've had coins come out in the PAST that others have announced BEFORE there were issues around this. The forums are fluid, as are the guidelines to keep up with changes (cointests, missions, etc.). We try to react to the current situation as best we can keeping in mind that things change. (See the recent pre-sales issues as an example. 6 months ago pre-sales were well received. Not so much anymore).

If you'd like to continue the discussion, please contact me offline so this discussion can be more in general about "who can/should announce another person's coin". I don't want this thread to be about one specific instance, nor so I wish to debate forum policies.

If things were really as bad as some of you thought, wouldn't this thread have been shut down already?

Thank you, I will shortly, but back OT...

What's are the rules? You shut us down for unknown reasons and then act surprised when we start shouting. Please address my original questions, thank you.

1) So unless the manufacturer requested the thread be closed I'm wonder on what basis was it done?

I wonder in particular because I happen to do quite a bit of designing for some coin companies (who don't generally announce their releases) and so do the announcing myself.

2) Am I breaking a rule I'm not aware of?

3) Are moderators authorized to make those calls?

Edited November 13, 2008 by fox-and-the-hound

24.7k · November 13, 2008

...- A moderator's opinion on HOW the forums are run and what is/isn't acceptable is their job. You may or may not agree with these opinions or judgement calls, and that's your right. It doesn't mean that you can go against them, but you don't have to like or agree with them....

True still, We do need to understand them. If you can't explain them such that we can understand them, how can they be followed?

November 13, 2008

I have to agree with fox and hound and the well spoken way it was said. The original thread should have never been closed. It was a discussion on a new coin stating how much it was liked Also asking who the designer was . a few others made some nice comments on the coin. Then it was stated that it is usually the person responsible for the coin to announce it{ This is a very good idea but not a set Practice} The original poster said that if another thread was started Or the maker had a problem it could be closed. Then a small p@#$%*&ing contest started and the thread was closed. I'm sure coinsandpins would not mind a coin that they have on sale being discussed in a positive matter. The reference in thier profile is only that they do not promote themselves. I mean its a geocoin forum . I sure producers of geocoins have no problem with the discussion of them. The original thread being closed was Wrong.

Edited November 13, 2008 by geocachingdragon

2k · November 13, 2008

treading lightly....

I know Aaron is on vacation this week but did anyone ask him if he wanted the thread closed? or was it assumed by his profile?

I have sold a few coins through him in the past and he ok with the annoucement in the forum. He just won't be doing it. Many of his coins are announced here by others, why was this one singled out? or am I missing something?

For us who have been around awhile could new policy changes be annouced in the pinned thread at the top. Like the whole Cointest and Mission having that in the title a curtain way. How are people suppose to find that out?

4.2k · November 13, 2008

I never said the coin couldn't be talked about. The thread was posted as an announcement. The last person to post a thread like that ended up raked over the coals because the coin was not delivered and that person was getting some angry emails, even though they had nothing to do with the making of the coin. So, I tried to explain to the OP this time that it is common courtesy to let the people producing the coins make the announcement. From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales. No where did I say the coin couldn't be discussed.

Did anybody read this? It was made clear that a policy change did not happen and it was a suggestion.

Let me ask this: If it's that important this this coin be talked about, why hasn't anybody opened a new thread to talk about it?

Seems like this is more about lighting torches and being martyrs than it is about the coin.

2k · November 13, 2008

I normally try to stay out of these things since I don't know all the details.

A few things come to mind.

1. Just because something happened 1 time and one person got upset I don't think that means it's the norm.

2. The coin in question wasn't a secret. It was publically posted on the C&P website.

3. If this situation does happen and the seller of the coin doesn't want his/her coins listed and specifically states that then the thread could be closed.

4. If the seller comes in and then wants to announce his/her coin the original thread could then be closed or deleted.

5. In this situation I think someone should ask Coins and Pins if they specifically do not want others announcing coins for sale on their site.

1.3k · November 13, 2008

treading lightly....

I know Aaron is on vacation this week but did anyone ask him if he wanted the thread closed? or was it assumed by his profile?

I have sold a few coins through him in the past and he ok with the annoucement in the forum. He just won't be doing it. Many of his coins are announced here by others, why was this one singled out? or am I missing something?

For us who have been around awhile could new policy changes be annouced in the pinned thread at the top. Like the whole Cointest and Mission having that in the title a curtain way. How are people suppose to find that out?

When announced by others I'm pretty sure the person doing the announcing is the proud artist who gave C&P the design though. And I think I'd be a little sad if a company were minting my design and someone else stole my thunder.

Also, I can think of a few threads where someone other than the designer/minter (or someone pretending not to have anything to do with it) announced the coin and the thread devolved into something nasty.

Though I was grateful last night when I came across another thread posted by someone other than the designer/minter, I would've missed out on a cool coin because it was from a company I usually don't obsessively check the page of

3k · November 13, 2008

- A moderator's opinion on HOW the forums are run and what is/isn't acceptable is their job. You may or may not agree with these opinions or judgement calls, and that's your right. It doesn't mean that you can go against them, but you don't have to like or agree with them.

I've looked it over again and again and I still don't see at what point the cacher went "against them" so to speak. She was given a suggestion politely. She was flippant or jesting in disregarding the suggestion, but being flippant isn't against the rules. Not taking a suggestion is not against the rules. So at exactly what point did she go against the rules? Which rule? Can these rules be posted so we know to stop going against them?

2k · November 13, 2008

I never said the coin couldn't be talked about. The thread was posted as an announcement. The last person to post a thread like that ended up raked over the coals because the coin was not delivered and that person was getting some angry emails, even though they had nothing to do with the making of the coin. So, I tried to explain to the OP this time that it is common courtesy to let the people producing the coins make the announcement. From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales. No where did I say the coin couldn't be discussed.

Did anybody read this? It was made clear that a policy change did not happen and it was a suggestion.

Let me ask this: If it's that important this this coin be talked about, why hasn't anybody opened a new thread to talk about it?

Seems like this is more about lighting torches and being martyrs than it is about the coin.

So why was the thread closed? Is was not helping sales? It is a coin forum, if a coin gets annouced and has bad press then it has bad press. I thought that is how this forum worked. People get to discuss coins.

for me it is not about this ocin in particular but the ability to discuss and/or open a thread about a coin that is not mine or I have nothing to do with except want to discuss.

2k · November 13, 2008

I never said the coin couldn't be talked about. The thread was posted as an announcement. The last person to post a thread like that ended up raked over the coals because the coin was not delivered and that person was getting some angry emails, even though they had nothing to do with the making of the coin. So, I tried to explain to the OP this time that it is common courtesy to let the people producing the coins make the announcement. From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales. No where did I say the coin couldn't be discussed.

Did anybody read this? It was made clear that a policy change did not happen and it was a suggestion.

Let me ask this: If it's that important this this coin be talked about, why hasn't anybody opened a new thread to talk about it?

Seems like this is more about lighting torches and being martyrs than it is about the coin.

I actually don't think this thread is about that specific coin.

I think this thread is more about who can and can't post for what coins on sale where.

4.2k · November 13, 2008

Anybody can talk about any coin. Maybe the thread should be about who should announce a coin?

The question about who CAN was already answered. So was the reason the thread was closed.

8.9k · November 13, 2008

I never said the coin couldn't be talked about. The thread was posted as an announcement. The last person to post a thread like that ended up raked over the coals because the coin was not delivered and that person was getting some angry emails, even though they had nothing to do with the making of the coin. So, I tried to explain to the OP this time that it is common courtesy to let the people producing the coins make the announcement. From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales. No where did I say the coin couldn't be discussed.

Did anybody read this? It was made clear that a policy change did not happen and it was a suggestion.

Let me ask this: If it's that important this this coin be talked about, why hasn't anybody opened a new thread to talk about it?

Seems like this is more about lighting torches and being martyrs than it is about the coin.

Being one who's opened a new thread shortly after a thread was closed, I can tell you from experience that this is HIGHLY frowned upon! Asking for clarification is hardly a torch lighting party!

I would say that Eartha posted the quote from the profile of the coiner in question and closed the thread...nothing was said whether the coiner was contacted nor was there anywhere (that I saw) where someone was being out of line. RSG asked a question and she was shut down. Could she have asked the question better? Sure, but that's not in the forums guidelines and she was not being rude or posting content which was innappropriate!

So, the question of whether the coiner was contacted seems a good question to me...

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm not being rude, I'm not in any way questioning our mods' authority...I am just curious as to why this was shut down. I happen to think our mods do a wonderful job and I appreciate their work, I just see this as a slight mistake and want to understand what the reasoning was!

ETA: Eartha basically stated she was protecting the OP from a possible problem with the coin. I stand behind my thought that we are all adults and THANKS for bringing it to our attention, but we should still be able to make the decision whether to take that risk or not! Did Eartha ask the OP if she was willing to accept that risk? If she did and got an answer reflecting the OP wasn't, I could easily understand the closing.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

24.7k · November 13, 2008

Anybody can talk about any coin. Maybe the thread should be about who should announce a coin?

The question about who CAN was already answered. So was the reason the thread was closed.

Lets put a different spin on that.

No 2nd party can announce a coin that wasn't allready announced by the maker. They had to get the information from somwhere. If the maker can't keep a lid on it, can they really expect the fans too?

in that light, Coins in the wild, coins in the works are all fair game. The only line that can be crossed here is fraud. If someone announced someone eles coin and accepted payment for it. Fraud is a lot different than enthusiams.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Renegade Knight

2k · November 13, 2008

I guess I am slow. I see this:

...From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales...

This implied it was closed because of this issue.

So since I am slow can someone help:

1. Why was the thread closed?

2. Who can start a thread about new coins?

1.3k · November 13, 2008

- A moderator's opinion on HOW the forums are run and what is/isn't acceptable is their job. You may or may not agree with these opinions or judgement calls, and that's your right. It doesn't mean that you can go against them, but you don't have to like or agree with them.

I've looked it over again and again and I still don't see at what point the cacher went "against them" so to speak. She was given a suggestion politely. She was flippant or jesting in disregarding the suggestion, but being flippant isn't against the rules. Not taking a suggestion is not against the rules. So at exactly what point did she go against the rules? Which rule? Can these rules be posted so we know to stop going against them?

This one?

1. Forum courtesy: Please treat Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, fellow community members, and guests on these boards with courtesy and respect. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they should be treated fairly.

8.9k · November 13, 2008

Maybe we should ask for permission and then state that permission was given to post about a coin's release...kind of like a cache publication?

If this is the case, I agree, a modification of the guidelines should be made known so we don't accidently break them. Us older posters aren't likely to return to the guidelines before each posting...

2k · November 13, 2008

I have to agree with fox and hound and the well spoken way it was said. The original thread should have never been closed. It was a discussion on a new coin stating how much it was liked Also asking who the designer was . a few others made some nice comments on the coin. Then it was stated that it is usually the person responsible for the coin to announce it{ This is a very good idea but not a set Practice} The original poster said that if another thread was started Or the maker had a problem it could be closed. Then a small p@#$%*&ing contest started and the thread was closed. I'm sure coinsandpins would not mind a coin that they have on sale being discussed in a positive matter. The reference in thier profile is only that they do not promote themselves. I mean its a geocoin forum . I sure producers of geocoins have no problem with the discussion of them. The original thread being closed was Wrong.

I think the mods do a gr8 job around here,although all calls are not allways right, and cannot be. This is one instance I have to disagree with the mods,, I read the post while it was still live(before the drama) I thought to myself how cool of her to share a coin with us she had found

my reasons for disagreing with the mods on this call are

1 she specificly said she "found the coin" online and wanted to "share"

2 there was no promotions ,,no links just a statement of where to find it. so with no links how was she promoting this coin?

3 I felt like eartha took it apon herself to research the coins"production companys rules" instead of just following groundspeaks rules..she even left a quote from the company page of coins and pins. so It seemed like she was going out of her way to close the thread,,,Why would she have to goto the other companys page if rules were broken on Groundspeak??

i think eartha may just have had a "this is not the right way to do things" attitude? But still no reason to close the thread,,

mabie she could have told msg how to better word her topic so it was more to fit the requirements to stay, with this i mean arnt the mods to help us keep our topics alive instead of closing them down???

just the way i see it??

but i must say with hundredes of topics poping up weekly,mabie daily,,they have their work cut out for them and i think they do a fine job.......

id like to see msg back,with a different wording and the topic allowed to stay and both partys should realize mabie the situation could have been handled better,,and learn for next time!!!

Edited November 13, 2008 by DJ.J.ROCK

2.3k · November 13, 2008

One shouldn't get mouthy with a moderator. That's a guaranteed ticket to a vacation from the forums.

Just my $.02

Oooo! Is it pretty there? I need a vacation!

Edited November 13, 2008 by joefrog

November 13, 2008

One shouldn't get mouthy with a moderator. That's a guaranteed ticket to a vacation from the forums.

Just my $.02

Oooo! Is it pretty there? I need a vacation!

In my experience (3 or 4 times) it was about the same, but a little cool. I found wearing a sock to be helpful.

8.9k · November 13, 2008

One shouldn't get mouthy with a moderator. That's a guaranteed ticket to a vacation from the forums.

Just my $.02

Oooo! Is it pretty there? I need a vacation!

In my experience (3 or 4 times) it was about the same, but a little cool. I found wearing a sock to be helpful.

:santa: :wub:

3k · November 13, 2008

- A moderator's opinion on HOW the forums are run and what is/isn't acceptable is their job. You may or may not agree with these opinions or judgement calls, and that's your right. It doesn't mean that you can go against them, but you don't have to like or agree with them.

I've looked it over again and again and I still don't see at what point the cacher went "against them" so to speak. She was given a suggestion politely. She was flippant or jesting in disregarding the suggestion, but being flippant isn't against the rules. Not taking a suggestion is not against the rules. So at exactly what point did she go against the rules? Which rule? Can these rules be posted so we know to stop going against them?

This one?

1. Forum courtesy: Please treat Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, fellow community members, and guests on these boards with courtesy and respect. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they should be treated fairly.

It appears both the cacher and Mod broke this one. The difference was the Mod had the power to enact retribution and did.

3k · November 13, 2008

The question about who CAN was already answered. So was the reason the thread was closed.

It most definitely was NOT answered. It was suggested. Neither was the reason for closing the thread. A quote was given about SOLICITATION and that isn't the same thing.

3k · November 13, 2008

Let me ask this: If it's that important this this coin be talked about, why hasn't anybody opened a new thread to talk about it?

Because everyone's afraid of taking a drubbing now, thank you very much.

November 13, 2008

I never said the coin couldn't be talked about. The thread was posted as an announcement. The last person to post a thread like that ended up raked over the coals because the coin was not delivered and that person was getting some angry emails, even though they had nothing to do with the making of the coin. So, I tried to explain to the OP this time that it is common courtesy to let the people producing the coins make the announcement. From there the thread went downhill, and would no good for the coin sales. No where did I say the coin couldn't be discussed.

Did anybody read this? It was made clear that a policy change did not happen and it was a suggestion.

Let me ask this: If it's that important this this coin be talked about, why hasn't anybody opened a new thread to talk about it?

Seems like this is more about lighting torches and being martyrs than it is about the coin.

The reason a new thread wasn't opened is why this is being discussed . Someone other than the maker/Designer opened a topic on this coin and it was shutdown. I think most of the people here are just trying to understand why?? I dont have any issues with the mods and feel they brave the fires in this forum on a regular basis Quite well. But i think this was a power play or show of power rather than a legite reason to shut down the original thread.

6.4k · November 13, 2008

It all boils down to that maybe we all need to vent at times. It wouldn't hurt to be allowed to at times Yes, there is Off Topic. It would be nice to be able to KEEP IT HERE. The posters over there don't know nor seem to care about what goes on over here - otherwise, they'd come on over.

All I am saying is that we are all considered a large family here and would like to voice our opinions without fear of being reprimanded or banned. As you all know, I don't write the words properly but I think you guys know what I am trying to say

3.3k · November 13, 2008

What I can't believe is how everyone has lost their minds this week. I'm certain I've missed the handout of spiked Kool-Aid.

The thread went off topic, and it was closed. How hard is that to understand? Open a new one. Geez. How many threads have gone off topic and been closed? Dozens! Just because one of the off topic parties happened to be a moderator, it's Holy Anarchy

And, from what I see, there are no set rules about who can open a thread about a new coin sale. It's obviously more fun to question policy than to step back and breathe. Go open another thread about the angel coin already. Nothing new to see here. Move along.

TMA

2k · November 13, 2008

What I can't believe is how everyone has lost their minds this week.

You lost what? http://www.allemoticons.com/Angels/Angels_teu26.gif

I'm certain I've missed the handout of spiked Kool-Aid.

I'll share http://www.allemoticons.com/Drinking/Drinking_trink21.gif

Works in preview but note when posted.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Atwell Family

8.8k · November 13, 2008

Let me try to explain.

Okay, I really want to understand this one better. Honestly Eartha, this is in NO WAY AN ATTACK on your person, but this is what I'm seeing and it raises some questions.

1) A coin manufacture releases a coin and announces it to the world on his website.

No offense taken at all. Geocoin collectors can look at the list of approved vendors, and visit their websites to see what's coming out before it gets announced, if they want to. That's why we have a list, so people know who's out there making coins. Why not get it right from the horse's mouth? There are hundreds of coins that never even get mentioned in the forums, and yet they sell very well.

2) Said manufacturer won't personally make an announcement, but encourages the forums to discuss the aspects of caching (which geocoins are).

Coin discussion is great. Posting a thread however, that sounds like coin announcement should be done by the vendor, or the designer. Otherwise it can come back and bite you in the derriere, as has happened in the past, when one poor enthusiastic soul did post just such a thread, and the coin was never produced, and still hasn't been produced, and everyone who ordered one raked this poor individual over the coals and the OP there had to explain that they weren't involved in the geocoin, just that they liked the coin, but their original post appeared as an announcement. This is what I was trying to warn this poster about, but they didn't want to hear it. That's why I said I might have to close the thread in the future.

3) A cacher, interested in geocoins (an aspect of caching to which this thread is dedicated) notices a new coin and shares that information with us.

Just be careful how that post is written, see above.

4) The "announcement" doesn't seem to have prices, in-depth info or even a link to the seller.

It offered the coin up as an announcement, and where to get it. It sounded like it was her coin, her sale. That's how I read it.

So unless the manufacturer requested the thread be closed I'm wonder on what basis was it done?
I wonder in particular because I happen to do quite a bit of designing for some coin companies (who don't generally announce their releases) and so do the announcing myself. Am I breaking a rule I'm not aware of? Are moderators authorized to make those calls? FSM keeps telling me they don't have that kind of authority so I'm really confused now.

On the basis of going off topic in a rude way.

however, as a designer, you would be involved in the coin and might be able to communicate pertinent information about the coin, the seller, the design, the cost, the availability, the metals, the enamel, the meaning of it, etc.... So, you would be one of the obvious choices to post a sale announcement. You would be the perfect person to make the announcement, other than the coinmaker, or the person who has had the designer, and coinmaker produce a coin for them.

Eartha stated her opinion (which she is entitled to and it looked to be apparently out of kindness and concern) and followed up by stating "What if they didn't want it announced here? The cat was already let out of the bag. It's really up to the maker to announce their sales." Seriously? A geocoin manufacturer makes a coin, announces it to the world online, but doesn't want people to know over in the forums?

That was just one example of why you should let the maker announce their coin, other examples would be:

What if they had a limited number made for a group, or a club?

What if they had them made for in person trades?

What if they had them made for sale, and only if they didn't sell enough they would come to the forums.

What if they don't want to clutter the forums?

See below:

When announced by others I'm pretty sure the person doing the announcing is the proud artist who gave C&P the design though. And I think I'd be a little sad if a company were minting my design and someone else stole my thunder.

Also, I can think of a few threads where someone other than the designer/minter (or someone pretending not to have anything to do with it) announced the coin and the thread devolved into something nasty.

Exactly my point.

I know Aaron is on vacation this week but did anyone ask him if he wanted the thread closed? or was it assumed by his profile?

I have sold a few coins through him in the past and he OK with the annoucement in the forum. He just won't be doing it. Many of his coins are announced here by others, why was this one singled out? or am I missing something?

For us who have been around awhile could new policy changes be annouced in the pinned thread at the top. Like the whole Cointest and Mission having that in the title a curtain way. How are people suppose to find that out?

There is no policy change. The thread was not closed because of Coins and Pins profile policy. The thread was closed because of the rudeness. If you want to discuss the coin, please feel free to discuss it, but don't smart mouth a moderator publicly and bring your own thread downhill. And don't make it sound like you are announcing a sale that you are not involved in, see above reasons.

"I've looked it over again and again and I still don't see at what point the cacher went "against them" so to speak. She was given a suggestion politely. She was flippant or jesting in disregarding the suggestion, but being flippant isn't against the rules. Not taking a suggestion is not against the rules. So at exactly what point did she go against the rules? Which rule? Can these rules be posted so we know to stop going against them?"

This one?

QUOTE
1. Forum courtesy: Please treat Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, fellow community members, and guests on these boards with courtesy and respect. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they should be treated fairly.

Again, I will not discuss a warning given to another forum poster, in public or with those not involved, but the warning was not issued for that thread. You do not see what goes on behind the scenes, it's not all public, and I am not going to post in here what went on. That's private.

Gee, you try to help someone out during a full moon, and all heck breaks loose. Next time I will check the calendar.

As far as other threads go, you all have to understand that, as moderators, we do this voluntarily, on our own free time. Sometimes that means I have 5 minutes to stop in and check for reported posts, and sometimes I might spend half of my lunch hour, or all evening, or a rainy weekend day perusing the forums. But, we do not spend all day, 24/7 sitting in front of our monitors waiting for new posts to appear. We do not read each and every thread. We will act on the ones we do see ourselves, that require action, and the ones that are reported to us, as soon as possible. You see, we do get reports on some threads, because the community at large also wants this place to remain friendly, and see that we all follow the guidelines. We're not the ones pushing the report button. All of our forum posters should have read the forum posting guidelines, and terms of use for this website, before their first post.

We sleep at night, and we work all day. We stop to take food and water to keep us alive, and sometimes, if we are lucky we might find time to go caching. We don't play favorites, and we don't base our decisions on who is doing the posting. We base them on what was posted. So, if your posting style gets you in "trouble", you can't blame the moderators for that.

Miss Jenn has just posted in the UK forums a post I think you should all read as well, since it describes Groundspeak's relationship with its moderators pretty well, and discusses how Groundspeak is involved with these forums. Her post came about because of things that had happened in those forums, which are not important here, but it is something she took a lot of time to compose, and it might serve us all well if the geocoin community read the post, too.

Thank you,

Eartha

P.S. It took me a voluntary hour to read and re-read and cut and paste and edit and re-read and put this post together, and hour I could have spent with my loved ones, making a home cooked meal. It looks like leftovers tonight. I can see why it took Miss Jenn a lot longer to compose her letter!

Edited November 13, 2008 by Eartha

November 14, 2008

Let me try to explain.

........

Thank you,

Eartha

P.S. It took me a voluntary hour to read and re-read and cut and paste and edit and re-read and put this post together, and hour I could have spent with my loved ones, making a home cooked meal. It looks like leftovers tonight. I can see why it took Miss Jenn a lot longer to compose her letter!

Seems pretty clear and concise to me

8.1k · November 14, 2008

I've looked it over again and again and I still don't see at what point the cacher went "against them" so to speak. She was given a suggestion politely. She was flippant or jesting in disregarding the suggestion, but being flippant isn't against the rules. Not taking a suggestion is not against the rules. So at exactly what point did she go against the rules? Which rule? Can these rules be posted so we know to stop going against them?

I guess it's a case of allowing Flippant as you put it, or disrespectful behavior. The whole thing might have been avoided or defused if the response had been an inquiry rather than a terse: whatever!

Moderating is somewhat like parenting. I guess an analogy here would be: If your child responded to a suggestion you made by saying... whatever! and then running their mouth again, would you sit by idle and let them be flippant or would you sit them down and explain to them that's not how to behave?

It's ok to question the mods, but I think that should be done in a respectful courteous manner.

8.9k · November 14, 2008

I've looked it over again and again and I still don't see at what point the cacher went "against them" so to speak. She was given a suggestion politely. She was flippant or jesting in disregarding the suggestion, but being flippant isn't against the rules. Not taking a suggestion is not against the rules. So at exactly what point did she go against the rules? Which rule? Can these rules be posted so we know to stop going against them?

I guess it's a case of allowing Flippant as you put it, or disrespectful behavior. The whole thing might have been avoided or defused if the response had been an inquiry rather than a terse: whatever!

Moderating is somewhat like parenting. I guess an analogy here would be: If your child responded to a suggestion you made by saying... whatever! and then running their mouth again, would you sit by idle and let them be flippant or would you sit them down and explain to them that's not how to behave?

It's ok to question the mods, but I think that should be done in a respectful courteous manner.

Whatever....

2.8k · November 14, 2008

I've looked it over again and again and I still don't see at what point the cacher went "against them" so to speak. She was given a suggestion politely. She was flippant or jesting in disregarding the suggestion, but being flippant isn't against the rules. Not taking a suggestion is not against the rules. So at exactly what point did she go against the rules? Which rule? Can these rules be posted so we know to stop going against them?

I guess it's a case of allowing Flippant as you put it, or disrespectful behavior. The whole thing might have been avoided or defused if the response had been an inquiry rather than a terse: whatever!

Moderating is somewhat like parenting. I guess an analogy here would be: If your child responded to a suggestion you made by saying... whatever! and then running their mouth again, would you sit by idle and let them be flippant or would you sit them down and explain to them that's not how to behave?

It's ok to question the mods, but I think that should be done in a respectful courteous manner.

My kids used to lose their video game and computer time for that particular response. Eye Rolls weren't appreciated either!

3k · November 14, 2008

Seems pretty clear and concise to me

Seems that way to me, too. What I hear is "don't cross me and my opinion or I'll kill your thread whether you actually did anything wrong or not" followed by a whole lot of hypotheticals without any actual input from the maker of the coin.

I'm not saying for a moment that you didn't have her best interest at heart. I am questioning why your offer of help became an ultimatum. I know you feel like you were in the right. I'm just wondering if you've paused to wonder why so many of us feel you weren't.

I won't bother to post in this thread any longer. It's obvious you're feeling self righteous and don't want to listen to opposing views anyway. That's my opinion if I'm still allowed one. Maybe now we can get back to talking about coins if one of the manufacturers is willing to give us permission.

What Gives?

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