An Open Letter

[+MissJenn]

The volunteers who generously serve or who have served the UK geocaching community have suggested that Groundspeak ought to participate more in this forum. This is a great idea; unfortunately, it is not scalable or sustainable. Maybe it was possible 5 or 6 years ago, when Jeremy could post regularly, but today, the forum communities are much larger and quite active worldwide. We simply do not have the human resources to keep up with all the threads in all the areas – and that's true even if we just count the ones in English. (Groundspeak lackeys are not even active in the US regional forum that includes Seattle, for example.)

 

So please never take it as neglect of, or an attack on, or a slight on the UK community, that we have not posted here very often. Our participation is not reduced as a result of the snide remarks which some people make when they notice a certain username or two in the list of currently active names displayed at the bottom of the page, although that sort of thing isn't likely to make people feel welcome to post.

 

Having said that: here I am posting now. It seems a good time to do it and hopefully it will be helpful to the community at large. Do not take it personally if I am unable to reply as often as you all can post questions.

 

(This post is so long that I cut it up into several sections. It's still just as long, of course. The software likes it better cut up this way.)

 

So, let's mention the events of the past weeks.

The level of work required in this forum community and the stress that job creates has sadly driven your two fine local moderators away. mtn-man and I are currently listed as moderators, and the other global mods also get reports as they always have. A moderator's job is to help a forum run smoothly. We have the Forum Guidelines published for all to read that helps keep us all on the same page. If you have any sincere questions about areas of the guidelines which you feel are unclear, ask; if necessary, we will then clarify the guidelines with a post in here or update the guideline text appropriately.

 

Recently, several threads and several people in here have not been very friendly at all. There are four or five individuals whose deliberately provocative behavior in this forum takes up a huge amount of time from our volunteers and staff, as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds. I realize those threads and those people are in the minority, but that brash loudness drowns out or scares away the other folks who would rather not post here at all for fear of the acidic response they may get to a perfectly fine post.

 

Meanwhile, there are other threads in which people are engaging with one another without being disrespectful, without resorting to taunts and without an inappropriate sense of entitlement. Those folks are conversing like nice people! They may disagree with this point or that detail, but they do so courteously. They understand the difference between a little joke and a really cutting remark. They respect the fact that in order to preserve the privacy of conversations held between two parties, not all the information can be broadcasted in a discussion forum.

 

I'd really like for geocachers who can engage in these positive ways to come to these forums* and use them as much as possible. Let's all make this a friendlier spot, eh? That's the only way to convince one among you to be a forum mod and to allow that person to actually enjoy the task.

 

Each and every one of you who reads this post can help beyond that, even: If you have any questions regarding the appropriateness of a forum discussion post, you may discuss that with the author of the post. Cite the appropriate portion of the guidelines if necessary. You may also use the 'report' icon found at the bottom of that post, which alerts a moderator to look into that topic. (The moderators are not expected to read every post which is made in "their" forums.)

 

We would prefer, as I'm sure you would too, to hand the moderator reins over to a suitable local candidate in due time. My hope is that when that time comes, the general forum demeanor will be a positive one. There are many of you out there who are looking for and want to participate in, as our Forum Guidelines put it, "a friendly social network for GPS enthusiasts around the world." I invite you to post here. I hope that you feel welcome, find the information that you seek and simply enjoy the companionship.

 

I also encourage you to browse, and post in, the general discussion forums, such as "Geocaching Topics", "Geocaching.com Web Site", the coin forum, or "GPS and Technology". Very often, you will have a broader range of replies to your inquiries, and you may well make new friends in there. Contrary to what some people seem to think, not all of the participants in those forums mention in every post how they carry guns while caching, or complain when they have to pay less than half of what you do for gas.

 

*Groundspeak realizes and even encourages the creation of local clubs that often come with their own online forum software. That's fine, too! The more conversations about geocaching, the better it is for all of us.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=198818

Just remember that one person's version of a story is just that: one person's version. You only have one facet of many.

 

I laughed at a post shared with me about how my posts apologizing to Deceangi and Mandarin must have been made on Jeremy's orders. Many people make many assumptions. In fact, Jeremy hasn't been involved at any point in the entire discussion leading up to the post which you are currently reading. It's been my decision.

[+MissJenn]

About being suspended from the forums:

 

We try not to suspend people from the forums. It's not much fun for anyone. But sometimes, in the interest of all the forum users - many of whom "lurk" and never post at all - we sometimes need to remove members of the community who persistently violate the guidelines.

 

The general process is that a mod will warn the person a few times and then eventually, if still required, suspend posting privileges for a specific time period. But this is not a judicial system with maximum and minimum penalties laid down after extensive political debate; sometimes an individual's behavior is so crass that they can find themselves suspended very quickly (and not just for using the word that the forum software - as a bit of a joke, "fercryinoutloud" - translates to "dadgum"). Likening a Groundspeak lackey or volunteer to a Nazi, for example, is not only disrespectful to the person; it's also an insult to the victims of the Nazis (as well as being the lowest form of "debate" on the Internet).

 

We do not usually advertise that a person has been getting warnings or a suspension. We respect that person's privacy, after all. Some forum members like the glory of martyrdom when a mod doles out some form of discipline and they are the ones who spread the news - frequently omitting to report all of the relevant facts, such as warning messages which were in fact sent, or the insulting reply which they sent to a friendly initial PM from a mod. That's certainly one way to behave. Another would be to realize your mistake and be mature. Perhaps even show a bit of remorse. We saw both of these in a recent case, and I like to think that the community realized who was the braver individual.

 

 

About the reviewers:

 

The UK has been spoiled (do you say "spoilt" here?) in the past due to the participation of your reviewers in the forums. Did you know that is not universally true? There are some reviewers who have never posted to the forums at all. It's not a requirement of the job. The job is to review caches. Anything else is above the call of duty.

 

I sincerely thank the UK reviewers who are currently busy with that job and with those duties. Cache review is demanding work: it has been likened to birthing a child. Sometimes, you get lucky and it's an easy delivery. More often than not, it's a long labor of love. The UK reviewers may choose to focus on this midwifery rather than spend their time and energy in the forums. They may choose to take a bit of a break for a little while, or maybe for a long while. I suppose it may depend on how enjoyable or stressful the forums are. Please don't bug them about it. They'll come back if they feel like it.

 

For any one cache that is brought here because the cache owner is angry and/or confused about something, there are many hundreds of others that were handled smoothly and the reviewer gets no forum thread about how good the service was. Every reviewer wants to publish caches; if yours can't be published, it will very, very likely be for a good reason. Even if you don't agree with the decision which the reviewer makes, we ask you to respect it, adjust your cache accordingly, and get on with the game. (And please remember: it is a game. In a historic time like this (i.e. world politics), it's clear that some things in life are ultimately worth fighting for, and others aren't.)

[+MissJenn]

About Groundspeak's relationship with the volunteers

 

One of the unfortunate consequences of Groundspeak's minimal participation in this forum has been that a number of incorrect statements and assumptions about how we work with our volunteers have been allowed to go uncorrected for several months now.

 

To take some of these claims at face value, you would have to assume that the volunteers are insane, or masochists, or both. You could get the impression that we treat the volunteers as unpaid slaves, with constant threats of disciplinary action if the "party line" is not followed to the letter. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and I don't expect everyone to just believe me; so I suggest that next time you meet one of the current volunteers at an event, you buy them a well-earned drink and ask them.

 

The plain fact is that without the volunteers, there would be no geocaching.com site. The economics of our game would not allow it. We'd have to charge $4.99 or $7.99 or whatever to publish each cache - and if we think people's expectations of our service are high today, you can imagine what it would be like if we were charging money per cache. So we try to go out of our way to allow our volunteers as much freedom as possible in how they operate. It's sometimes a fine line to tread, and we are not always perfect at communicating what we are doing.

 

This game is only possible because of the Internet, which means we have to accept some of the limitations on human interaction which written electronic communication imposes. We don't always have time to say things in the best way possible - this post is something I've been working on for a couple of days, and when you get to read it, it will still be less than perfect.

 

Occasionally, there will be a contested decision made by a volunteer moderator or reviewer, and someone will pull out an example from another forum or caching area where the same guideline has apparently (and, in some cases, very clearly) not been followed. I believe that this actually helps my point: we give the volunteers a lot of freedom, including the freedom to make mistakes. Where those mistakes cause genuine problems, we try to clear them up afterward. But in many cases, our guidelines are more about trying to do the right thing most of the time, than aiming at some kind of perfection.

 

We accept that in a given year, a certain number of caches will be published too close to a railroad line, or with the name of a business in the title, or in a disrespectful position in a cemetery, or whatever. The volunteers help protect the future of the game, to the extent that they keep these incidents to a minimum, within reason. Perfection is not possible here and thus not required, and if anyone has genuinely acquired that impression due to the limitations of our communication, then you have Groundspeak's apologies.

 

Finally, on a personal note:

 

Some of you have commented publicly and even sent private messages regarding the title I had and now have under my avatar. Many of you assume you understand what it’s all about. Let me say that it’s not at all what most have assumed. Did you know that for about a day my title was "wears shorts" because I thought that sort of deadpan description of the image directly above was kinda funny in comparison to some of the grandiose ones I was looking at a lot during that specific time period? It turned out not to be that funny after I looked at it myself for that short time span (ha!) so then I went with another literal description of the image above and went with "carries a big stick." That was much funnier, still deadpan and could even allude to other things. By the way, that is an image of me and my beloved hiking staff, which goes with me on every caching trip.

 

The recent presidential election here in the US has affected me deeply enough that I felt like changing it again. It’s no more than that. There’s no conspiracy. We are simply not well enough organized at Groundspeak to do conspiracies. My forum title simply isn’t as much of an indicator of my personality as some of you think: well, not without the right decoder ring.

[+mongoose39uk]

Thank you for your long and pretty detailed post on your thoughts about recent events in the forum.

 

Appreciated from my point of view anyway.

 

Sooo............ lets move along and make this a happier place.

[+maxkim]

Thank you for your comments... and explanations, MaxKim..

[+The Blorenges]

Thank you for posting, MissJenn.

 

I hope those forum posters who, in the past, have made their 'digs' at Groundspeak (both here, in other places, and in private communications) will come forward and address their concerns to you directly and take this opportunity to clear the air.

 

MrsB

Edited November 11, 2008 by The Blorenges

[+purple_pineapple]

And may I add my thanks as well. I guess we can all appreciate why you guys aren't in here as often as we might like, and hopefully you won't need to be in here often in the future either! However, it would be good if we can have a forum where you [/u]want to come and post! We may even get that 4 legged mutt posting in here on occasion!

 

So thanks again!

[+drdick&vick]

A very well constructed reply.

Lets hope that the forum can settle back down and that the people concerned will settle back down so as the others who enjoy the forum can actuall get back to doing just that.

One forum I regularly visit and post on has only 1 mod and his work is mainly moving posts into the correct area, we all get on and use the forum for what it is there for,communication of advice and skills to others and not attempting to earn brownie points by stabbing each other in the back and being rude to those who are trying to help and pass on helpful information.

Edited November 11, 2008 by DrDick&Vick

[+Madyokel]

Many thanks for your post MissJenn..

Much appreciated.. S.

[+puppymonster]

We may even get that 4 legged mutt posting in here on occasion!

 

So thanks again!

Woof! (pant pant pant pant pant)

[+Teuchters]

I'm afraid I never got past this bit..

 

as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds.

 

Not designed to win friends and influence people?

[+kewfriend]

A genuine welcome to your deposition.

 

We all know, in terms of forums and caching activity of all kinds that the generally the UK is prime real estate.

 

Our own land laws, footpaths etc etc have aided the development of UK geocaching, so that cache density in England (for instance) is almost at the top of the GC.COM league tables. We need GC & GC needs us for the pastime to flourish.

 

All organisations have to adapt as they grow. GC.COM hasn't done a bad job of adapting - on the whole. The website is a vast improvement on a few years ago. The key current issue does seem to be whether the managerial structures, procedures and processes of GC.COM have managed to adapt fast enough for its growth. Most organisations delegate and federate more as a solution to growth, whilst keeping an overarching corporate identity. That means trusting the judgements of those who are local - not wading in. That trust does happen in the reviewing process, but the forums is more questionable. The perception on the ground IMHO is that GC.COM has become more didactic and centralised as its solution to growth and more prone to wade in, and the current tornadoes are partly a result of that. That may not be the view from GCHQ of course.

 

The sheer size of the UK forums participation means we are bound to get moments when 'people speak out of turn'. Good moderation can deal with that, and candidly your posting is an example of such. Actually I think that the UK forums are surprisingly well behaved given the volume of participation and that perceptions to the contrary are misplaced. OK I put my hands up to the odd 'sour' comment. I personally wouldn't worry too much about the forums; those of us that participate really are very much a minority of geocachers. BUT last year's events were precisely because GC did worry too much about central corporate compliance in the forums and by wading in put us now where we are. I commend a 'back off', chill etc etc.

 

Finally lets have some volunteers to MOD us from amongst us UK crowd. Lets be open, even democratic about it if at all possible and live happily with whom we accept as our MODS, and for goodness sake lay to rest the Masonic Secrecy that is perceived to be GC.

 

[+kewfriend]

A genuine welcome to your deposition.

 

I promise you I didnt press send twice!!!

Edited November 11, 2008 by kewfriend

[Sir Chester]

We may even get that 4 legged mutt posting in here on occasion!

 

So thanks again!

Woof! (pant pant pant pant pant)

Woof Woof

[+purple_pineapple]

(pant pant pant pant pant)

 

now are they american pants or brit pants?!

 

oh, and have a doggy biscuit!

[+Jacobite]

Well, that was a well thought out heart-felt post I think, which I'm sure will be welcomed by most forum members. IMO, that form of communication will only help the UK forum (and community), so long may it continue.

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your views.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Jacobite

[+HazelS]

Thanks for that Miss Jenn...

 

I only hope that this forum can be rebuilt to it's former glory of about 2 years ago, when everyone helped each other and was nice to each other... now it's just fighting and slagging off, and lets see who can be nastiest about who...

 

I do, however, think that Miss Jenn's words may come too late... most of the nicer people that used to post in here now post elsewhere, either in the GAGB forums, or in their own regional forums.

 

I was a very regular poster in here, now I just mooch in about once every couple of days, and rarely post.

[+Happy Humphrey]

now it's just fighting and slagging off, and lets see who can be nastiest about who...

Let's be fair, Hazel, that's only your perception. I haven't seen it at all (well, hardly at all). Possibly, posts like that (which obviously breach the guidelines and will be removed) have been moderated out before I've had chance to see them. (?) There isn't much evidence of it now unless some people are incredibly sensitive.

 

It's good to hear from Miss Jenn at length. Some won't like it, but it's my belief that we should talk here rather than grumble in the background. But sometimes the mods have to take the lead and set the tone: it might be useful for a slightly firmer style of moderation to be applied for a while until the new setup gets bedded in. For those who like a livelier debate, there's still the GAGB forum if this place temporarily gets a bit too bland and dull.

[Beefy4605]

Thanks for that Miss Jen .

Maybe everyone can see this as a chance for a fresh start and put an end to the senseless bickering that has been going on in here of late.

I like big sticks

[+careygang]

Well I thought MissJenn's communication was very well composed. I can't see anything to complain about as she has been honest and fair.

 

There was clearly an issue originally between our former reviewers and GSP, but that seems to have been a catalyst for the current problems. It's as though some members having been hyped up by that occurrence have not moved on. Live with it, it was months ago and 'the good old days' won't come back.

 

Certain individuals have always been picky or grouchy, but in recent months that behaviour seems to have escalated.

 

As Mtn-Man said recently, use the backspace key more often.

 

Lets just Chill and get back to fluffy bunny land for a while...

[+careygang]

I'm afraid I never got past this bit..

 

as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds.

 

Not designed to win friends and influence people?

 

Actually I think it was an honest statement if taken in context.

She gets my vote!

[+The Hornet]

Thank you for that Jenn, I hope the UK forum participants take it at face value and that this forum can regain some of its former appeal.

There was clearly an issue originally between our former reviewers and GSP, but that seems to have been a catalyst for the current problems. It's as though some members having been hyped up by that occurrence have not moved on. Live with it, it was months ago and 'the good old days' won't come back.

As one of those involved I would agree with your last sentence I have quoted.

 

I would like to make just one point, a forum is for Discussion and a place where perceived grievances can be aired. Some (many? a few?) people may feel from time to time that there is something not right here or with Geocaching in general. Just because this has traditionally been a friendly place to visit should not mean people should be afraid of voicing their criticism. During my years as forum mod I saw many critical postings, including some (a lot?!) of me. I still believe that an acceptable balance was maintained and I sincerely hope that bearing everything in mind that Jenn has said that this balance can be restored.

 

While I do not like constant bickering, apparently just for the sake of it, neither would I like to see a Disney style "fluffy bunny", everything is just perfect place either.

 

I'll now return to my self imposed silence.

[+Team Sieni]

I'm afraid I never got past this bit..

 

as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds.

 

Not designed to win friends and influence people?

Harsh, but (at times) true, imo.

 

Edited to add: meaning that Miss Jenn's statement is true, although HighlandNick's point that it may not win friends is valid. But at times the truth hurts.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Team Sieni

[+Just Roger]

Harsh, but (at times) true, imo.

 

Edited to add: meaning that Miss Jenn's statement is true, although HighlandNick's point that it may not win friends is valid. But at times the truth hurts.

 

It will win friends amongst those who want the forums to return to normal. If the said 14 year olds don't like it - then please go away and let the silent majority enjoy the forum as it was.

[+Mad H@ter]

If the said 14 year olds don't like it - then please go away and let the silent majority enjoy the forum as it was.

If the forums are to be left to the "silent majority" will they not become a rather quiet place ?

 

What I assume you meant is that you want the forums left for those that only want warm fluffy chat, and not in depth complex discussions.

 

As has been said by HH above I have seen very little of this so called bickering. Most of the complex discussions have generally been well run and polite discussions, but not necessarily with all in agreement. The only times IMHO that we seem to get the bickering is when those who only want warm fluffy chat come on to complain about the bickering.

 

Why can we not have room on these forums for both the warm fluffy chat and complex discussions. Those that are not interested in certain threads, well they just ignore them, quite simple really, isn't it ?

[+Mad H@ter]

Going through everything people say with a fine tooth comb to look for contradictions/disagreements/angels on pinheads

Yes, I do have to agree with you on that point, there has been rather too much of this type of nit-picky activity going on, particularly in response to any contributions our friends from across the pond make. Sadly it does not help complex discussions and may even derail them. Personally I tend not to notice these types of post too much, as I skip through them (with a possible tut to self) and go on to more meaningful posts.

 

BTW, a big thanks to Miss Jenn for your contribution, I am sure that it is appreciated by much of the UK community.

[+MissJenn]

... In my classroom (which happens to be full of petulant 14 year olds a lot of the time), when the kids are getting a bit out of hand we have back-to-basics times where we remember the rules and apply them a little more stringently until the atmosphere is right again and then ease off, that way everyone can be reasonably happy to express themselves without fear or favour and concentrate on the matters in hand.

Nicely said, CHC. I believe mtn-man has pretty much said this in his own words in another thread (or two).

 

Whether or not the forum is getting out of hand I don't know, but a lot of people feel it is not a happy ship and would like it to be so. Happy doesn't have to be fluffy bunnies (I don't like them anyway, they dig up the lawn and broke my dog's leg) ...

I hate bunnies, too. They eat my garden veggies which I work very hard on.

(Is this the time to bring up carrying a gun? )

 

Seriously, I was never suggesting that we all just say "fluffy bunny" type stuff. If you read my words carefully, there are quite a few non-fluffy, non-bunny, very hard-hitting bits in there. Yet, the discussion has remained courteous and no one has resorted to bickering.

[+Lost in Space]

.. Yet, the discussion has remained courteous and no one has resorted to bickering...

 

I'm sure that will change. Our "regulars" haven't shown their faces yet, (on this thread...)

[+drdick&vick]

Although I enjoy a good structured discussion/debate I do feel that some of the discussions/debates that have taken place on here recently do actually belong in a playground full of 14yr old petulant schoolkids who just simply wish to score points from each other or simply argue for the sake of it.

The sooner it all ends the better it will be for the forum.

As a relative newcomer to the forum I have been absolutely shocked and disgusted by some of the behaviour.

Maybe I should just stay in my other forums that are populated by people with a more adult attitude.

[+MissJenn]

.. Yet, the discussion has remained courteous and no one has resorted to bickering...

I'm sure that will change. Our "regulars" haven't shown their faces yet, (on this thread...)

Nah.... I think we'll stay courteous. Well, either that or some folks just need a bit of time to prepare a rebuttal with as many words as I posted above.

[+Bambography]

A well written, well put and well received post, thank you for that!

 

This relates to when we get back to local moderation: I think most people can accept that you really can't monitor all of these forums on a continuous basis, an absurd and silly concept. However (& I hope this next comment is taken as I intend it), when the proverbial is clearly either hitting, or heading for the fan, then would be a good time to pop in and see whats going on. I think a few of the more heated situations could have been prevented by a more timely response from folks at HQ. (I really do mean this in a suggestion way, not a gripe, moan or whine and I expect it to be taken as such ).

 

Otherwise I currently don't think its all as bad as some people make out, its still helpful and chatty, but the 'good ol' days have passed. Bring on the new era

[+kewfriend]

The key current issue does seem to be whether the managerial structures, procedures and processes of GC.COM have managed to adapt fast enough for its growth. Most organisations delegate and federate more as a solution to growth, whilst keeping an overarching corporate identity. That means trusting the judgements of those who are local - not wading in.

 

Last year's events were precisely because GC did worry too much about central corporate compliance in the forums and by wading in put us now where we are. I commend a 'back off', chill etc etc.

I must be alone in trying to structurally unravel what has happened. No one, either local or posting here on behalf of GC has commented. This worries me, because I do not subscribe to the platitudinous theory of social organisations.

 

I know Lucilla and Dave P, (for slightly different reasons) have hung up their Mod pencils. I really regret that. <KF blows DP and L a kiss> I do not think these forums are any nicer or nastier than before, busier maybe - but in general roughly the same as before.

 

We as posters <do I look good in poster paint> have the standard responsibility to not destabilise the forums. That is taken as read. We'll abide by our Mods. That is taken as read <well they have the big OFF button> BUT our Mods must feel that the delegated authority they have is real AND that they are not subject to instant, overnight and cursory over-rulings from a 'senior' Mod at GC and quite simply - publicly humiliated with their authority undermined.

 

I can see the central compliance temptation to do this by GC central Mods whose knowledge of the other geo-languages may not be as 'hot' as their English. These persons in their Mod-roles, (and it does include those whose recent comments here I've welcomed MissJenn, MTN and Keystone) must be prepared to apply to the UK forum Mods the same delegations as are applied to the UK reviewing process, which on the face of it was definitely lacking.

 

There - I've said it.

 

PS I do not class good and coherent participation as we have here from MTN and MissJenn, as 'wading-in'. Thats called communication..

[+Stuey]

I do, however, think that Miss Jenn's words may come too late... most of the nicer people that used to post in here now post elsewhere, either in the GAGB forums, or in their own regional forums.

 

I was a very regular poster in here, now I just mooch in about once every couple of days, and rarely post.

 

Yep, same as me. I just happened to notice a post from Miss Jenn and thought it deserved being read. I'm glad I read it, it made very good reading. Thanks Miss Jenn for posting. Will you marry me?

[+third-degree-witch]

... I hate bunnies, too. They eat my garden veggies which I work very hard on.

(Is this the time to bring up carrying a gun? )

 

Watership Down,Youve read the book,Seen the film !............................Now eat the cast

[+Teuchters]

The point I was trying to make was that if you want to start afresh (under new management), the last thing to do is start wading in and criticising things that have gone before by referring to earlier posters as "petulant 14 year olds." Whether this is true or not is neither here nor there in a mature conversation.

Two wrongs don't make a right. I wonder if I had made a comment using this type of language about moderators or GSP employees, would I have been allowed to continue posting?

 

Why not really start anew by wiping the slate clean and leaving the past behind?

[+mtn-man]

Will you marry me?

She is already dating Jeremy.

[+MissJenn]

Stuey and mtn-man,

That was awesome. Buy me a new monitor as I just spewed my soda all over it.

 

kewfriend,

I think you read my comments here, and the subsequent discussion. I believe that and my original words above address many of your concerns already.

Finally lets have some volunteers to MOD us from amongst us UK crowd. Lets be open, even democratic about it if at all possible and live happily with whom we accept as our MODS, and for goodness sake lay to rest the Masonic Secrecy that is perceived to be GC.

As I said, "We would prefer, as I'm sure you would too, to hand the moderator reins over to a suitable local candidate in due time." We have learned from experience that what tends to work best is for these decisions to be made by Groundspeak and the volunteer community with much thought and discussion given to what the local community would want, and what behaviors have been demonstrated. If by "democratic" you suggest that you folks here all get to choose, I'll remind you what disastrous results we generally used to get when polls were available in these forums.

[+sTeamTraen]

The point I was trying to make was that if you want to start afresh (under new management), the last thing to do is start wading in and criticising things that have gone before by referring to earlier posters as "petulant 14 year olds." Whether this is true or not is neither here nor there in a mature conversation.

 

Sometimes, to clear the air, you have to tell it like it is, even in mature conversation.

 

The full sentence was:

There are four or five individuals whose deliberately provocative behavior in this forum takes up a huge amount of time from our volunteers and staff, as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds

 

To me, the last few words simply add a little colour to try and get across the amount of hassle which dealing with some posters causes. (I guess the more pedsemantically-minded could even argue that it

doesn't actually compare the individuals to 14-year-olds, but I don't think that avoiding that was a conscious consideration.)

 

Given the amount of vitriol which is regularly displayed in here towards Groundspeak and the moderators - much of it based on the same kind of extrapolation which turned a human big toe into a dinosaur in the opening credits of Monty Python's Flying Circus - I think Jenn's reply is pretty moderate in tone. Out of the several hundred words in her post, this is pretty much the only "raised voice" moment.

[+careygang]

Seconded!

[+Lost in Space]

,,,, There are four or five individuals whose deliberately provocative behavior in this forum takes up a huge amount of time from our volunteers and staff, as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds.

 

Come on, let's not beat about the bush, let's name and shame........

 

(I know who my four are, anyone willing to start the ball rolling?)

 

LiS

[Izzy and the Lizard King]

,,,, There are four or five individuals whose deliberately provocative behavior in this forum takes up a huge amount of time from our volunteers and staff, as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds.

 

Come on, let's not beat about the bush, let's name and shame........

 

(I know who my four are, anyone willing to start the ball rolling?)

 

LiS

 

I fail to see how that would achieve anything productive. If you feel so strongly about it put your cards on the table first and learn how to make friends.

 

P

[adrianjohn]

 

Come on, let's not beat about the bush, let's name and shame........

 

(I know who my four are, anyone willing to start the ball rolling?)

 

LiS

 

Here you are LiS you might need one of these......

[+MissJenn]

,,,, There are four or five individuals whose deliberately provocative behavior in this forum takes up a huge amount of time from our volunteers and staff, as much as if we were dealing with petulant 14-year-olds.

 

Come on, let's not beat about the bush, let's name and shame........

 

(I know who my four are, anyone willing to start the ball rolling?)

 

LiS

From the Forum Guidelines:

 

Here are some things to keep in mind when posting: ....

 

Personal attacks and inflammatory behavior will not be tolerated.

[+careygang]

The subject of 'petulant' individuals is somewhat difficult..., a bit of a caught between a rock and a hard place scenario.

 

'Out Them' and are you pandering to their attention seeking (I acknowledge that's just one possibility)?

 

Ignore their posts - are you giving them the kudos of the last word?

 

Engage at a sensible level - does it feed the flames?

 

React and 'Bite' - have you lowered yourself to their level and risk forum discipline as a result?

 

Any Caching Shrinks out there? But of course professionals never consult for free .

 

Perhaps we should just not focus on that one sentence of MissJenn's eloquent OP? But if that is the case, should I backspace on this?

 

Incidentally, in post #20 when I referred to "get back to fluffy bunny land for a while', I was thinking less Disney or Watership Down and more the game played with Marshmallows , anything that would divert from the recent issues. Or perhaps we could get the 'petulant' individuals on the Cream Cracker* game, where you try and eat more than 5 without any liquid...?

 

 

*For transatlantic info, see HERE. It is just about impossible to eat 5 of these dry crackers without taking on liquid because they suck all the moisture from one's mouth...

[+Pharisee]

Incidentally, in post #20 when I referred to "get back to fluffy bunny land for a while', I was thinking less Disney or Watership Down and more the game played with Marshmallows

 

Ahh.... you mean the one where you shove a sharpened stick through their middle and torture them slowly over a fire

[+Happy Humphrey]

Ahh.... you mean the one where you shove a sharpened stick through their middle and torture them slowly over a fire

I'm sending you the bill for my new screen: now mine's covered in coffee stains.

[+Stuey]

Incidentally, in post #20 when I referred to "get back to fluffy bunny land for a while', I was thinking less Disney or Watership Down and more the game played with Marshmallows

 

Ahh.... you mean the one where you shove a sharpened stick through their middle and torture them slowly over a fire

 

Or do you mean the one where you shove a marshmallow in your mouth, say "Chubby Bunnies", shove another one in, say it again, and repeat over and over and over.... until they all popped out again

[+Simply Paul]

.. Yet, the discussion has remained courteous and no one has resorted to bickering...

I'm sure that will change. Our "regulars" haven't shown their faces yet, (on this thread...)

I've been resisting temptation for a couple of days as I've taken some advice I've seen here; as I've had nothing nice to say, I've said nothing. My criticism would unlikely be taken as constructive anyway, or an 'attack' on a policy taken as an 'attack' on a person or persons. Just in case I'm one of the 'four or five' mentioned above (I'm only saying it's a possibility ), here's a link to 177 pages of my forum posts. If anyone has an issue with any other them, which wasn't addressed at the time, they're very welcome to contact me through my profile and I'll gladly defend myself (or not, if they have a good point) on specifics- It's harder for me to comment on some of the sweeping condemnations I may -or may not- have received on here recently, along with unspecified 'others'.

[+mtn-man]

Just in case I'm one of the 'four or five' mentioned above (I'm only saying it's a possibility ), here's a link to 177 pages of my forum posts. If anyone has an issue with any other them, which wasn't addressed at the time, they're very welcome to contact me through my profile and I'll gladly defend myself (or not, if they have a good point) on specifics- It's harder for me to comment on some of the sweeping condemnations I may -or may not- have received on here recently, along with unspecified 'others'.

Email sent.

 

 

 

Just kidding. I had to do it.

[+Simply Paul]

Hehehe