Delorme PN-40 Screen Size

[+bikercr]

The soon to be released Delorme PN-40 looks like a great product in so many ways, including price. It has all the bells and whistles a geocacher might want including a great mapset (although no 24K topo as far as I can tell), paperless caching, etc. I've been using a Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx for about a year now--a truly classic, great geocaching unit that is getting a little antiquated compared to the latest technology from Garmin. The PN-40 is something I'd buy as an upgrade--except for one major issue: its tiny screen size.

 

Now, I'm not in any way a Delorme hater and have enjoyed their mapping products in the past. But why come out with such a great new GPS unit for trail use with a screen about 20-30% smaller than the 60CSx--already borderling on being too small? One problem I have with the 60CSx is that the smallish screen gets in the way of a really detailed view of any but the closest terrain. Zooming out beyond 500ft or so makes everything so small and crowded together that it's hard to easily see the detail that's there. With the latest technology rapidly moving to significantly larger screens, why is Delorme choosing to stay with a screen only 2.2 inches diagonal? This is a big mistake in my opinion, even if the PN-40 screen is high resolution and readable in every other way.

 

Over the years, GPS screens have evolved from black and white, to small color screens, to larger color and finally, touch screens. Just as black and white screens now seem like technology from a distant past, the tiny color screens on most of today's trail-oriented GPS units, including the PN series, will seem antique in a year or two.

 

So, I'm going to hold off until Delorme makes a great GPS with a larger screen...or until Garmin comes out with a bug-free Oregon-like unit with a screen you can read in bright sunlight, loaded with 24K maps at a reasonable price. The techonology to do this is available right now. Why should we put up with substandard design and old technology?

Edited November 10, 2008 by bikercr

[+splashy]

Two kind of people handle Gps's

The end user, they mostly understand and try to get out the gps what's inside.

The factory, making nice gps's, but they don't have a clue what the end user is doing with the product.

[snakyjake]

I was thinking the same thing...holding off. I hate supporting lazy innovation.

 

But, I wonder if the reason they don't move to a larger screen is because of speed and battery. More information on the screen means more processing. More processing and larger screen means more battery drain.

 

Maybe Garmin made a less than desirable screen on the Colorado/Oregon in order to save battery drain?

 

I think these GPS manufacturers will have to do something soon. Phones with integrated GPS, fast processors, large screens, and high resolution are going to start kicking some of these devices out of the market.

 

After working in software R&D, one thing I noticed is the lack of concern for something cool and innovative. People were too easily paying a lot of money for junk, so the incentive for quality and innovative wasn't there. Perhaps with the economy, designers and R&D will start producing something to get more people to buy. But then again, I think a lot of R&D departments need to be gutted out and restructured. I see too many people hired who just don't have what it takes.

 

Or maybe my expectations are too high.

[+Red90]

The screen is the same size and resolution as a current model Etrex. I agree, that is the killer. Not much point in having access to raster images with such a low resolution device.

[+trainlove]

I'd buy the PN-40 which comes with their great maps.

I'd load those great maps to my laptop.

I'd connect the PN-20 to my laptop with the supplied data cable.

Then I'd have a 17" screen.

 

But, my laptop has not worked in over a year. My battery never worked. Well I was able to cobble togather a gell cell battery pack brick that could power it for a few hours, but who wants to walk around the woods with a fragile laptop, and a 25 pound battery pack on his belt?

I actually got the laptop for free from my transfer station/junk yard and it served me well for a couple years.

I've been really putting off pulling out the hard drive to extract all my information, especially my extreemely old GSAK databases, those that I don't have in my email still.

[+Hrethgir]

I have an etrex Legend HCx and had a PN-20 that I sold to get a PN-40. The screen size doesn't bother me, it shows what it needs to show, and a smaller screen means a smaller unit, and I can put my Legend in my pocket easily, but the Colorado or 60CSx are both too big for that. I'll take ease of portability over a moderately bigger screen (220x176 for the PN-20/40 and Legend/Vista HCx, 160x240 for the 60CSx, and 240x400 for the Colorado/Oregon). Besides, smaller screen = better battery life. But I like the smaller form factor more than I want a "big" screen. I'm not watching movies on it, after all!

[MtnHermit]

I have an etrex Legend HCx and had a PN-20 that I sold to get a PN-40. The screen size doesn't bother me, it shows what it needs to show, and a smaller screen means a smaller unit, and I can put my Legend in my pocket easily, but the Colorado or 60CSx are both too big for that. I'll take ease of portability over a moderately bigger screen (220x176 for the PN-20/40 and Legend/Vista HCx, 160x240 for the 60CSx, and 240x400 for the Colorado/Oregon). Besides, smaller screen = better battery life. But I like the smaller form factor more than I want a "big" screen. I'm not watching movies on it, after all!

Isn't the PN-2/40 considerably larger than your Legend, even though they have the same screen? More like the size of the 60CSx?

 

How do you compare their usability?

 

Personally, I think that the whole battery life issue is the result of using automotive grade processors vs. dedicated handheld CPU's, nothing to do with screen size.

[+g-o-cashers]

Here's some speculation.

 

The PN-20 took some knocks because of its poor map rendering performance. When DeLorme went to design the PN-40, this was probably the highest priority item to fix. They threw a bigger, faster, dual core CPU at the problem and from what I've read they solved this issue. But when they considered increasing the size of the screen they realized that to have a "reasonable" battery life that they would only be able to make a very modest improvements because the new CPU was chewing up a lot of power. A slightly bigger screen didn't make sense and sticking with what they already had allowed them to leverage the design (and volumes) of the PN-20 screen.

 

Just a guess...

 

GO$Rs

Edited November 10, 2008 by g-o-cashers

[+Indotguy]

While I don't claim it to be fully competitive with the PNs, my Lowrance H20C has dual processors, a screen size of 2.83" and is still advertised with a battery life of up to 14 hours. As far as size goes, while my H20 is larger than an Etrex or probably the PNs, it still fits in my pocket quite nicely. I think the PNs are great units. This being said I, would like them even better with a larger viewing area.

[+Hrethgir]

I have an etrex Legend HCx and had a PN-20 that I sold to get a PN-40. The screen size doesn't bother me, it shows what it needs to show, and a smaller screen means a smaller unit, and I can put my Legend in my pocket easily, but the Colorado or 60CSx are both too big for that. I'll take ease of portability over a moderately bigger screen (220x176 for the PN-20/40 and Legend/Vista HCx, 160x240 for the 60CSx, and 240x400 for the Colorado/Oregon). Besides, smaller screen = better battery life. But I like the smaller form factor more than I want a "big" screen. I'm not watching movies on it, after all!

Isn't the PN-2/40 considerably larger than your Legend, even though they have the same screen? More like the size of the 60CSx?

 

How do you compare their usability?

 

Personally, I think that the whole battery life issue is the result of using automotive grade processors vs. dedicated handheld CPU's, nothing to do with screen size.

 

Yeah, the PN-xx is a little bigger than the Legend HCx, but still easily fits in my jacket pocket (I can fit the Legend into my jeans pocket, but kind of a tight fit).

 

PN-20/40: 2.43" W x 5.25" H x 1.5" D, 5.35 oz.

Legend HXc: 2.2" W x 4.2" H x 1.2" D, 5.5 oz.

60CSx: 2.4" W x 6.1" H x 1.3" D, 7.5 oz.

Colorado: 2.4" W x 5.5" H x 1.4" D, 7.3 oz.

 

So the PN-xx is a touch wider (depending how Garmin rounded the numbers for the CO and 60), shorter than the CO and 60, a touch deeper (kind of a bummer, but makes it easy to hold, at least), but the lightest of the 4. So there are some trade-offs, but light weight is nice. Also, the PN-xx is all rounded, and doesn't have stiff sticking up off of it like the CO and 60CSx do, which is probably why it seems physically smaller, even though it't not. But I LOVE the placement of the buttons on the PN, under the screen is the place they need to be! The placement of the thumbstick above and to the left of the legend screen has always baffled me; I'm right-handed, so to use it comfortably, I usually have the screen half-covered by my hand. And the Rock & Roller on the CO just doesn't appeal to me.

 

As to usability, the Legend HCx and PN-20 both got the job done, but between the button placement and the paperless caching, I prefered to use the PN-20, which I have sold so I can buy a PN-20. I'll keep the Legend, but it's going to be m back-up/loaner GPS, the PN-40 will be my primary unit.

[MtnHermit]

GO$Rs

 

Here's some speculation.

 

They threw a bigger, faster, dual core CPU at the problem and from what I've read they solved this issue.

 

Just a guess...

A respectful rebuttal.

 

Your post suggest you've you've bought into the whole dual-core smoke and mirrors put out by DeLorme. I have a Nuvi 205W, it has the STM Cartesio, Garmin says nothing about dual cores, for good reason.

 

The main reason for dual cores is to cut cost. The Cartesio is a more integrated chip with more functions so the GPS manufactures can offer more functions at lower cost. The higher CPU speed is just a natural byproduct of the smaller process node. Nuvi 2x5's are down to $150, by example. That's with a battery, touchscreen, speaker and 48 state routable maps.

 

While its true the STM Cartesio has two cores, they are NOT two identical general purpose cores like a Intel or AMD dual core CPU. Each core of the Cartesio is dedicated to unique tasks and those tasks can NOT be shifted to the other core to improve performance. The 60CSx, et al, also have two cores, but in separate chips and again each is dedicated to unique tasks, the major reason the 60/76 family has half the battery life of the Vista family.

 

Do some research and you can add this tidbit to your forthcoming, and may I add excellent, PN-40 wiki.

[+RRLover]

GO$Rs <edit>

forthcoming, and may I add excellent, PN-40 wiki.

Truly?!?!?!? I'm all ears, tell us more GO$Rs!

 

Norm

[+g-o-cashers]

Interesting. I misunderstood. I actually thought DeLorme was talking about a different version of the Cartesio (not the STA2062) which had the GPS core plus two additional cores for general purpose processing. I don't really consider the STA2062 a dual-core (as you mention below), more like a single CPU with a GPS assist processor.

 

The PN-40 is essentially the same platform as the Oregon. That pretty much blows my theory out of the water!

 

The only thing I can think then would be design time or a desire (need) to keep common components with the PN-20. I'm sure there was a big cost savings of not having to redesign the form factor of the PN-40.

 

BTW, what GPS hardware is the PN-20 based on?

 

GO$Rs

[+magicman/sewjourner]

The soon to be released Delorme PN-40 looks like a great product in so many ways, including price. It has all the bells and whistles a geocacher might want including a great mapset (although no 24K topo as far as I can tell), paperless caching, etc. I've been using a Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx for about a year now--a truly classic, great geocaching unit that is getting a little antiquated compared to the latest technology from Garmin. The PN-40 is something I'd buy as an upgrade--except for one major issue: its tiny screen size.

 

Now, I'm not in any way a Delorme hater and have enjoyed their mapping products in the past. But why come out with such a great new GPS unit for trail use with a screen about 20-30% smaller than the 60CSx--already borderling on being too small? One problem I have with the 60CSx is that the smallish screen gets in the way of a really detailed view of any but the closest terrain. Zooming out beyond 500ft or so makes everything so small and crowded together that it's hard to easily see the detail that's there. With the latest technology rapidly moving to significantly larger screens, why is Delorme choosing to stay with a screen only 2.2 inches diagonal? This is a big mistake in my opinion, even if the PN-40 screen is high resolution and readable in every other way.

 

Over the years, GPS screens have evolved from black and white, to small color screens, to larger color and finally, touch screens. Just as black and white screens now seem like technology from a distant past, the tiny color screens on most of today's trail-oriented GPS units, including the PN series, will seem antique in a year or two.

 

So, I'm going to hold off until Delorme makes a great GPS with a larger screen...or until Garmin comes out with a bug-free Oregon-like unit with a screen you can read in bright sunlight, loaded with 24K maps at a reasonable price. The techonology to do this is available right now. Why should we put up with substandard design and old technology?

thanks. as excited as I am about buying a new GPS it seems that longer is better. The longer you wait to buy, the better the GPS gets.

[+bikercr]

The soon to be released Delorme PN-40 looks like a great product in so many ways, including price. It has all the bells and whistles a geocacher might want including a great mapset (although no 24K topo as far as I can tell), paperless caching, etc. I've been using a Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx for about a year now--a truly classic, great geocaching unit that is getting a little antiquated compared to the latest technology from Garmin. The PN-40 is something I'd buy as an upgrade--except for one major issue: its tiny screen size.

 

Now, I'm not in any way a Delorme hater and have enjoyed their mapping products in the past. But why come out with such a great new GPS unit for trail use with a screen about 20-30% smaller than the 60CSx--already borderling on being too small? One problem I have with the 60CSx is that the smallish screen gets in the way of a really detailed view of any but the closest terrain. Zooming out beyond 500ft or so makes everything so small and crowded together that it's hard to easily see the detail that's there. With the latest technology rapidly moving to significantly larger screens, why is Delorme choosing to stay with a screen only 2.2 inches diagonal? This is a big mistake in my opinion, even if the PN-40 screen is high resolution and readable in every other way.

 

Over the years, GPS screens have evolved from black and white, to small color screens, to larger color and finally, touch screens. Just as black and white screens now seem like technology from a distant past, the tiny color screens on most of today's trail-oriented GPS units, including the PN series, will seem antique in a year or two.

 

So, I'm going to hold off until Delorme makes a great GPS with a larger screen...or until Garmin comes out with a bug-free Oregon-like unit with a screen you can read in bright sunlight, loaded with 24K maps at a reasonable price. The techonology to do this is available right now. Why should we put up with substandard design and old technology?

thanks. as excited as I am about buying a new GPS it seems that longer is better. The longer you wait to buy, the better the GPS gets.

I totally agree. The longer you wait, not only the better but the cheaper, lighter, smaller form factor and larger number of features. BUT--sooner or later you've got to pull the trigger. They'll always be something better yet to come. Otherwise, the whole industry would fail. Right now, however, is a good time to wait. I think Garmin is getting close to producing a trail-oriented GPS that's close to perfect. They're not there yet. They need to make the Oregon screen readable in all kinds of light, loaded with all-states 24 K maps that can also be viewed on MapSource. When that happens, I'm reaching for my wallet!

[+embra]

Interesting. I misunderstood. I actually thought DeLorme was talking about a different version of the Cartesio (not the STA2062) which had the GPS core plus two additional cores for general purpose processing. I don't really consider the STA2062 a dual-core (as you mention below), more like a single CPU with a GPS assist processor.

 

The PN-40 is essentially the same platform as the Oregon. That pretty much blows my theory out of the water!

 

The only thing I can think then would be design time or a desire (need) to keep common components with the PN-20. I'm sure there was a big cost savings of not having to redesign the form factor of the PN-40.

 

BTW, what GPS hardware is the PN-20 based on?

Brian (of Team Delorme) posted this not long ago in another thread:

FWIW, The PN-20 uses the STMicroelectronics "Teseo" chipset and the PN-40 uses the STMicroelectronics "Cartesio" chipset.

 

I think you're right that they wanted to stick with the same form factor at this time...I don't think they wanted to bite off too much this time around. They definitely know that people would like a larger screen (I'm one of them), but that will be down the road.

[+RRLover]

They need to make the Oregon screen readable in all kinds of light, loaded with all-states 24 K maps that can also be viewed on MapSource. When that happens, I'm reaching for my wallet!

Until the OLED tech becomes cost effective the trans-flective (or any other form) touchscreen will never be

up to par, a touch screen must be back lit to usefully display any type of meaningful resolution.

Unless your privy to some new developments;"That's my story and I'm sticking to it!".

 

Norm

Edited November 10, 2008 by RRLover

[MtnHermit]

Until the OLED tech becomes cost effective the trans-flective (or any other form) touchscreen will never be

up to par, a touch screen must be back lit to usefully display any type of meaningful resolution.

Unless your privy to some new developments;"That's my story and I'm sticking to it!".

New Epson High resolution, no back-light LCD:

 

 

One of the elements in mobile devices that consume most electricity is LCD displays. That is the reason why various researches on OLED and other more energy-efficient alternatives are currently undergoing. Epson Imaging Devices Corporation recently came up with a Photo Fine High-Reflect (HR) a-TFT LCD that promises not only high-visibility but also energy efficiency.

 

In the dark, the Epson LCD goes in a transmissive mode that uses backlighting for illumination. In bright environments though, the display goes into reflective mode, turns backlighting off, and relies on ambient light for illumination thereby reducing power consumption in the process. The display has a brightness of 200cd/m2 and has a reflection ratio of over six percent. There are two models slated for shipping this October 2008; a three-inch version and a 3.5-inch one.

I'm told the iPhone has a very good daylight display.

[+g-o-cashers]

GO$Rs <edit>

forthcoming, and may I add excellent, PN-40 wiki.

Truly?!?!?!? I'm all ears, tell us more GO$Rs!

 

Norm

 

We'll see!

[+RRLover]

MtnHermit :

 

Thank you for sharing, over time you've taught me more than than you may realize.

 

Norm

[+KJcachers]

I'd buy the PN-40 which comes with their great maps.

I'd load those great maps to my laptop.

I'd connect the PN-20 to my laptop with the supplied data cable.

Then I'd have a 17" screen.

 

But, my laptop has not worked in over a year. My battery never worked. Well I was able to cobble togather a gell cell battery pack brick that could power it for a few hours, but who wants to walk around the woods with a fragile laptop, and a 25 pound battery pack on his belt?

I actually got the laptop for free from my transfer station/junk yard and it served me well for a couple years.

I've been really putting off pulling out the hard drive to extract all my information, especially my extreemely old GSAK databases, those that I don't have in my email still.

 

Dell has a cute little 9" laptop now for around $400-$500. 16gig Flash memory HD so no moving parts. Runs on Windows XP SP3 and has all the Bluetooth,Wireless and Camera features along with the usual USB connectors etc. We are seriously thinking of grabbing one JUST for Geocaching and using it exactly as you described along with the PN-20 while in the Jeep!

[mcgusto]

I would have to agree the screen size on the PN's is a little disappointing, but if I had a choice of battery life or a bigger screen, I would definitely choose battery life. This was actually my primary concern with nearly all of the GPS units I was looking at.

 

I know most of the people on this forum are using the units primarily for geocaching, which usually only involves day trips, or maybe a couple of hours. If you're out in the wilderness for a couple of days or a week, however, battery life is going to be a serious issue.

 

Don't get me wrong... a wide-screen, touch-screen unit with Delorme maps would be ideal, but only if there's power! There's going to have to be some major innovations in batteries and battery life for the widescreen versions of these GPS to really take off.

 

As for GPS units on a whole, I've held off for a long time. (Looking at the other post of "wait and you will be rewarded") Before I delved into getting one, I assumed that all units were going to be capable of 1:24K map accuracy, exchanging maps from units and vice-versa with a computer, and offer road routing capabilities, albeit on a smaller hiking GPS screen.

 

I was FLOORED by the fact that Garmin only offered this for national parks, and only recently began updating their maps with the West Coast with this type of detail. It was actually at this point I bought a Garmin (eTrex Vista Hcx). However, then I find out that all the new maps are only available on SD cards. At the time, I didn't realize this meant you COULDN'T view the maps on your computer! When I found that out, the Vista went back and I put in my order for a PN-40.

 

What good are 24K capabilities if you can't pre-route on computer with likeness in accuracy? I would still end up buying something like Nat. Geog. TOPO! for CA in order to get that level of detail. It was totaling up like this:

 

eTrex Vista Hcx - $200 (a great deal off Amazon)

Nat. Geog. TOPO- $100

Garmin's SD Card for CA 24K - $100

Garmin's Road Maps - $100

Garmins Topographic 100K series (for areas outside CA)- $100

 

Total - $600

 

PN-40 with all maps included: $339.00 (off JR's)

24K CA South Series CD (because I'm too lazy to wait and download for $30/year)- $50.00

 

Total - $389

 

So while the PN-40 might come up a little short on screen size, and compared to eTrex Vista the battery life is just a little more than half, the PN-40 is such a clear winner - and that's not even mentioning the SAT imagery as well.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is the PN-40 does everything I THOUGHT all GPS units would do by now, but I was sadly shocked to find out very few do. (Displaying 24k maps being the biggest factor).

 

Gusto

[MtnHermit]

You're missing a basic point. Delorme's does NOT have 24K vector topos, only 24K raster topos. Those are vastly inferior with that tiny screen. On paper those same raster topos are the Gold Standard.

 

Why you ask? You can't ID any objects from raster maps, whereas on a vector map everything you see is an identifiable object. That fact is crucial on a small screen.

 

Another factor, virtually all of the western US is covered by third party 24K vector maps that you can view in Mapsource.

 

So until DeLorme offers 24K vector topos I wouldn't have a PN-x0. Besides, my Venture Cx offers 3-times the battery life of a PN-20. I've done 4-day backpacks on a single pair of AA's.

 

As to satellite images, again raster images, but a clear plus for Delorme.

[MtnHermit]

PN-20/40: 2.43" W x 5.25" H x 1.5" D, 5.35 oz.

Legend HXc: 2.2" W x 4.2" H x 1.2" D, 5.5 oz.

60CSx: 2.4" W x 6.1" H x 1.3" D, 7.5 oz.

Colorado: 2.4" W x 5.5" H x 1.4" D, 7.3 oz.

You need to add the Oregon to this mix, same hardware as the PN-40 and I suspect smaller too.

 

The placement of the thumbstick above and to the left of the legend screen has always baffled me; I'm right-handed, so to use it comfortably, I usually have the screen half-covered by my hand.

I had this same thought the other day for the same reason. 90% of people are right-handed, so why is the thumbstick on the upper-left?

[+bikercr]

You're missing a basic point. Delorme's does NOT have 24K vector topos, only 24K raster topos. Those are vastly inferior with that tiny screen. On paper those same raster topos are the Gold Standard.

 

Why you ask? You can't ID any objects from raster maps, whereas on a vector map everything you see is an identifiable object. That fact is crucial on a small screen.

 

Another factor, virtually all of the western US is covered by third party 24K vector maps that you can view in Mapsource.

 

So until DeLorme offers 24K vector topos I wouldn't have a PN-x0. Besides, my Venture Cx offers 3-times the battery life of a PN-20. I've done 4-day backpacks on a single pair of AA's.

 

As to satellite images, again raster images, but a clear plus for Delorme.

Here's the basic issue for me regarding spending good money to upgrade my GPSMAP 60CSx. I just don't accept that the technology doesn't currently exist for an excellent, readable touch screen without poor battery performance. Why should I have to settle for inferior products just because Garmin, Delorme and others are either too uninspired or too profit-motivated to create a truly great off-road product?

 

I've got an LG Dare touchscreen phone--an iPhone wanna-be, if you will. The screen is fantastic--high resolution, full color, sensitive and accurate to touch with haptic and sound feedback. It's also considerably larger than the 60CSx screen and makes the tiny screen on the PN-40 look like a BAD JOKE. One critical feature this phone has is a button you can press to immediately lock and turn off the screen. Therefore, if I don't want to wait the 30 seconds for the screen to time-out, I can glance at it and then immediately turn it off--saving the battery and eliminating accidental screen or key presses while I'm stuffing it back in my pocket.

 

Why can't Garmin make a screen this bright and clear and sensitive, with haptic feedback, totally readable in all kinds of light except direct bright sunlight (just needs a little shade from your hand in this situation), that can be instantly turned off with a key press to save the battery? When navigating in the field with my Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx unit when it's getting dark out, I have to turn on the backlight and wait, everytime I press a button, 15 seconds for the screen to turn off when I only needed to glance at it for 3 seconds. There's no option for less than a 15 second time out (without making three or four power button presses every time I use the backlight).

 

Now, let's say that a truly great GPS touchscreen will eat up 2 AA alkalines in 8-10 hours--I'm certain that at least this amount of time is possible in the field with mostly short glances at a brightly lit screen that can be instantly turned off. At 20 cents a battery (Costco's Kirkland brand batteries--great deal), it would cost me 40 cents for 2-3 days of hiking. Come on, Garmin and Delorme--give us what we want, not what's cheap and easy for you! Until you do this, I'm "boycotting" your newer products that are both shoddy and make too many compromises.

Edited November 11, 2008 by bikercr

[+bikercr]

While I'm ranting, I should have mentioned that my LG Dare has built in GPS navigation, cell phone, web browser, 3.2 GB camera and movie camera, plays music, videos, and does text and instant messaging. All this in a package with a large screen, overall size of 4.25" by 2.25" and 3.5 ounces. I get two day of heavy use out of one charge. The phone accepts up to a 16GB SDHC card. Did I mention that it cost me $100? I've dropped it from a 4 foot height several times, spilled water on it, and it keeps on ticking.

 

Now why are off-trail GPS units so crappy and disabled in comparison? Garmin and Delorme--are you listening?

[+embra]

I'm not so sure that's a fair comparison.

 

Am I correct in presuming that $100 price was a promotional come-on accompanied by a service contract? A quick check at CNET showed prices ranging from $199 to $599 for the Dare, the former being from Verizon when one committed to paying $39 to $99 a month for two years, the latter being just the phone itself at Best Buy. I also presume that the Best Buy price is closer to the "true" cost.

 

If GPS companies ever get to start charging monthly use fees, I expect they'll be able to sell us really cool GPSs for cheap. I kinda prefer having the costs up front so I know what I'm getting into.

 

I'll grant you that the Dare sounds like a nice piece of technology, though. The capabilities of these gadgets boggle me. This is more a software side, but I was listening on NPR yesterday about apps that let you get a music sample on a phone that ties to the net and identifies the artist and track. Another one takes a picture of the barcode of an item while you're shopping and give you a Froogle-like list of other vendors and prices for your comparison shopping pleasure. Just wow.

[+bikercr]

I'm not so sure that's a fair comparison.

 

Am I correct in presuming that $100 price was a promotional come-on accompanied by a service contract? A quick check at CNET showed prices ranging from $199 to $599 for the Dare, the former being from Verizon when one committed to paying $39 to $99 a month for two years, the latter being just the phone itself at Best Buy. I also presume that the Best Buy price is closer to the "true" cost.

 

If GPS companies ever get to start charging monthly use fees, I expect they'll be able to sell us really cool GPSs for cheap. I kinda prefer having the costs up front so I know what I'm getting into.

 

I'll grant you that the Dare sounds like a nice piece of technology, though. The capabilities of these gadgets boggle me. This is more a software side, but I was listening on NPR yesterday about apps that let you get a music sample on a phone that ties to the net and identifies the artist and track. Another one takes a picture of the barcode of an item while you're shopping and give you a Froogle-like list of other vendors and prices for your comparison shopping pleasure. Just wow.

True about the price. It's like giving you the stapler and selling you the staples. But, the GPS companies are doing something similar--however, they're selling you the stapler, too! They're getting big bucks for the hardware, selling you the software (maps), and now charging for either subscriptions or full freight for mapping updates. At the same time, Garmin is selling you or installing old maps (TOPO 2008 is based on 2001 maps, even when 2007 maps are available) that are disabled in various ways. Either you can only use them on one device, or you can't even view them and use them on your PC (as in their stupidly expensive 24K state maps).

 

If we consumers vote with our feet and stop buying new GPS stuff the moment it comes out, they'll get the message and start producing fairly priced, truly excellent products.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

If we consumers vote with our feet and stop buying new GPS stuff the moment it comes out, they'll get the message and start producing fairly priced, truly excellent products.

Well, we certainly are voting with our feet regarding the purchase of Detroit pick 'em trucks. Now as soon as General Motors gets their government bailout and produces a fairly priced ($10,000) 1/2 ton, full sized pickup with a 6L, 600hp engine and that gets 60mpg city, I'm there.

[John E Cache]

Do some research and you can add this tidbit to your forthcoming, and may I add excellent, PN-40 wiki.

A core is a subset of a CPU. "Dual core" does not mean two CPUs or cores. Do the research. :-) The CPU has two cores, meaning it can process two threads at once on separate hardware. Graphics manipulation takes a lot compute power. The GPS chipset is a separate, as I read the specs.

[+benjamin921]

my LG Dare has built in GPS navigation...

I'm asking because I do not know but can you track yourself and save the track? Can you put waypoints on there? Have many many "draw" layers that can be turned on/off? Saved routes? Satellite imagery? Topo maps? Use it in places that don't have cell service/heavy tree cover? Does it come with a mapping program? I'm sure that I could ask more but I'll hold it here

[+TotemLake]

I'm not so sure that's a fair comparison.

 

Am I correct in presuming that $100 price was a promotional come-on accompanied by a service contract? A quick check at CNET showed prices ranging from $199 to $599 for the Dare, the former being from Verizon when one committed to paying $39 to $99 a month for two years, the latter being just the phone itself at Best Buy. I also presume that the Best Buy price is closer to the "true" cost.

 

If GPS companies ever get to start charging monthly use fees, I expect they'll be able to sell us really cool GPSs for cheap. I kinda prefer having the costs up front so I know what I'm getting into.

 

I'll grant you that the Dare sounds like a nice piece of technology, though. The capabilities of these gadgets boggle me. This is more a software side, but I was listening on NPR yesterday about apps that let you get a music sample on a phone that ties to the net and identifies the artist and track. Another one takes a picture of the barcode of an item while you're shopping and give you a Froogle-like list of other vendors and prices for your comparison shopping pleasure. Just wow.

True about the price. It's like giving you the stapler and selling you the staples. But, the GPS companies are doing something similar--however, they're selling you the stapler, too! They're getting big bucks for the hardware, selling you the software (maps), and now charging for either subscriptions or full freight for mapping updates. At the same time, Garmin is selling you or installing old maps (TOPO 2008 is based on 2001 maps, even when 2007 maps are available) that are disabled in various ways. Either you can only use them on one device, or you can't even view them and use them on your PC (as in their stupidly expensive 24K state maps).

 

If we consumers vote with our feet and stop buying new GPS stuff the moment it comes out, they'll get the message and start producing fairly priced, truly excellent products.

So you're suggesting I stick with my 6 year old relic to satisfy your boycott? Yaaaah... I don't think so. And that's going to be the general attitude today of anybody ready to move off their old units. PCs and software are incremental, and before that, the auto industry was very incremental even though they were very capable of producing a neat whiz bang vehicle. Grouse all you want about what the industry is doing, I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas right now.

[+KJcachers]

my LG Dare has built in GPS navigation...

I'm asking because I do not know but can you track yourself and save the track? Can you put waypoints on there? Have many many "draw" layers that can be turned on/off? Saved routes? Satellite imagery? Topo maps? Use it in places that don't have cell service/heavy tree cover? Does it come with a mapping program? I'm sure that I could ask more but I'll hold it here

Also wondering if the Dare's GPS is real GPS or just Cell Tower Triangulation. Seeing how Verizon Wireless disables all the Blackberry True GPS functions I am thinking the latter on the Dare as well.

[+bikercr]

my LG Dare has built in GPS navigation...

I'm asking because I do not know but can you track yourself and save the track? Can you put waypoints on there? Have many many "draw" layers that can be turned on/off? Saved routes? Satellite imagery? Topo maps? Use it in places that don't have cell service/heavy tree cover? Does it come with a mapping program? I'm sure that I could ask more but I'll hold it here

Also wondering if the Dare's GPS is real GPS or just Cell Tower Triangulation. Seeing how Verizon Wireless disables all the Blackberry True GPS functions I am thinking the latter on the Dare as well.

The Dare has a GPS chip and does a combo of satellite and tower triangulation. The navigation via VZ Navigator is fantastic and no maps are needed because the route is downloaded from a centralized mapping system. No, it doesn't work as a topo unit and that's not the point. It's just that the technology to make large, readable, touch sensitive screens is there. The battery/power technology is there. The packaging/ergonomics is there. But we're not getting that from the big GPS manufacturers. Their products are either yesterday's technology (Delorme with its puny PN screen) or shabby (Garmin with its multiply defective CO and OR units, unreadable screens, and crippled mapping programs that are way out of date even before they're released). If we're stupid enough to buy this crap, they're happy enough to sell it to us. Sorry if I sound like a "hater". I'm not. I just want these folks to hear us and not take their customers for granted.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

........If we're stupid enough to buy this crap, .........

I hear ya, pal, and I'm with ya all the way!

 

There not foolin' me anymore and I'm not buying any GPSr handheld until it does all that stuff and takes pictures, records movies, plays movies, plays songs, faxes pictures, has a compressor to inflate my tires, jump start my Jeep and keeps my coffee warm and all for $150, NMIR.

[+Hrethgir]

PN-20/40: 2.43" W x 5.25" H x 1.5" D, 5.35 oz.

Legend HXc: 2.2" W x 4.2" H x 1.2" D, 5.5 oz.

60CSx: 2.4" W x 6.1" H x 1.3" D, 7.5 oz.

Colorado: 2.4" W x 5.5" H x 1.4" D, 7.3 oz.

You need to add the Oregon to this mix, same hardware as the PN-40 and I suspect smaller too.

 

Well, same GPS chipset, but I doubt they share any more hardware than that. But here it is:

 

Oregon: 2.3" W x 4.5" H x 1.4" D, 6.8 oz.

 

It is a nice form factor, and the touchscreen seems cool, but I'm a little leary of Garmin since it sounds like a lot of the bugs from the CO series carried over to the OR instead of being addressed. And for the money, it still can't auto-route until you dump another pile of money on it for that software, and that's a big part of why the OR has never been on my list of toys to buy, the PN-40 can do more for the money, and the trade-off is a little extra bulk (but still lightest of the bunch... how odd) and a smaller screen. Personally, I can live with that. On a side note, I walked around Disneyland for the better part of a day with the PN-20 around my neck, and it wasn't an issue at all.

[+g-o-cashers]

(but still lightest of the bunch... how odd)

 

Anyone know if the PN-40 will float with Lithiums?

 

GO$Rs

[+g-o-cashers]

Answered my own question. Found this from Chip on the Delorme forums:

 

it will float with our Li-Ion rechargeable or the e2 Lithiums

 

That might explain the slight larger size -- they just needed more volume.

 

GO$Rs

[+KJcachers]

my LG Dare has built in GPS navigation...

I'm asking because I do not know but can you track yourself and save the track? Can you put waypoints on there? Have many many "draw" layers that can be turned on/off? Saved routes? Satellite imagery? Topo maps? Use it in places that don't have cell service/heavy tree cover? Does it come with a mapping program? I'm sure that I could ask more but I'll hold it here

Also wondering if the Dare's GPS is real GPS or just Cell Tower Triangulation. Seeing how Verizon Wireless disables all the Blackberry True GPS functions I am thinking the latter on the Dare as well.

The Dare has a GPS chip and does a combo of satellite and tower triangulation. The navigation via VZ Navigator is fantastic and no maps are needed because the route is downloaded from a centralized mapping system. No, it doesn't work as a topo unit and that's not the point. It's just that the technology to make large, readable, touch sensitive screens is there. The battery/power technology is there. The packaging/ergonomics is there. But we're not getting that from the big GPS manufacturers. Their products are either yesterday's technology (Delorme with its puny PN screen) or shabby (Garmin with its multiply defective CO and OR units, unreadable screens, and crippled mapping programs that are way out of date even before they're released). If we're stupid enough to buy this crap, they're happy enough to sell it to us. Sorry if I sound like a "hater". I'm not. I just want these folks to hear us and not take their customers for granted.

 

So you won't give your money to any of the GPS makers until things are better in your eye but you will give Verizon Wireless $10 a month for VZ Navigator when really the GPS portion of your phone or any Blackberry should already be on and available for us to use with whatever software we choose? $120/ year for GPS navigation on your phone? I would rather buy a NUVI for the car and pay one time for it.

[+embra]

...But we're not getting that from the big GPS manufacturers. Their products are either yesterday's technology (Delorme with its puny PN screen) or shabby (Garmin with its multiply defective CO and OR units, unreadable screens, and crippled mapping programs that are way out of date even before they're released). If we're stupid enough to buy this crap, they're happy enough to sell it to us. Sorry if I sound like a "hater". I'm not. I just want these folks to hear us and not take their customers for granted.

 

Your points about the technology that could be implemented in GPS devices is perfectly valid, as is your desire for manufacturers to hear and respond to your plea. I can even commiserate with your--I'm not sure what to call it--passion? As a former long-time Magellan user I felt very frustrated with their customer relations.

 

I've had enough communication with the people at Delorme to have what seems to be a different perspective than you. I can assure you that Delorme not only listens to customer requests, they solicit and respond to it. They don't take you or me for granted. They admit up front that they can't do everything, but they prioritize as best they can and they keep moving forward. I feel like we (current and prospective PN users) are involved in a collaboration with Delorme to create that perfect GPS which is still somewhere over the horizon. But if I and sufficient numbers of my fellow PN users had decided to not buy the PN-20 and/or the PN-40 because they weren't as good a GPS as they could have been, Delorme would probably stop making them. They're a small company, and they can't afford products that don't pay their way.

 

So I bought the PN-20 because it did some things I really liked, I could live with the shortcomings, and I saw potential for an even better GPS. My purchase was also an investment. Among other things, I feel like the PN-40 is a return on that investment. It has even more things I like, and fewer things I don't like. I want a bigger screen and better battery life, and in the best of all worlds those things would be here now. They aren't, but I am confident the process is moving towards their inclusion.

 

It might serve a purpose to raise a fuss with a company like Garmin to get their attention...they don't do too much communication with their customers, and it's hard to know if you're being heard. Delorme communicates...a lot. They've done it enough that I (and I daresay other customers) have developed a relationship with them. It's not exactly friendship (how many friends have required you to sign a NDA ); at the center of the relationship is a shared appreciation of maps, GPS devices, and using them for fun and business. We have mutual interests and shared activities, I know some of their faces. They have thick skins and they welcome constructive criticism, but I do get a little defensive on their behalf when their products are referred to as "crap" (I'm not sure if you were including them or directing that more to Garmin). I know they take pride in what they make, and for me, at least, it starts to feel a little personal when the language tends toward insult. Maybe that's more my issue to deal with than yours...but I again assure you Delorme hears you and they don't take any of us for granted.

 

I do believe you when you say you're not a "hater," I re-read the post with which you started this thread, and you expressed a perfectly valid viewpoint in a respectful manner. This post is just a long-winded way to try and answer the question you posed at the end of that post as to why I support what could be called old technology--the PN-40 does indeed use the same screen as the PN-20, which came out a couple years ago--though I would dispute it's a sub-standard design. The design may lag in some aspects, but it's at the vanguard in others.

[MtnHermit]

That might explain the slight larger size -- they just needed more volume.

Keen insight, but I prefer dumb luck.

[+embra]

Over the years, GPS screens have evolved from black and white, to small color screens, to larger color and finally, touch screens. Just as black and white screens now seem like technology from a distant past, the tiny color screens on most of today's trail-oriented GPS units, including the PN series, will seem antique in a year or two.

Another point (I was going on too long above) as to why Delorme may have stuck with a small screen: as a small company, they don't have the resources to offer multiple models aimed at every customer niche. They are faced with including as many desired features as possible but at low a cost as possible. Larger screens cost more money...money that some of us would gladly fork over, but cost will be the more important consideration for others. The screens sizes of Colorados and Oregons appeal to many of us [all of us?], but there are still a lot of eTrex's sold.

 

So far Delorme has tried to find the sweet spot of balancing cost against features. With the PN-40, Delorme now has a low-cost offering in the PN-20, and a mid-price offering in the PN-40. It's essentially a reworking of the PN-20 to give it the needed processing power, adding in requested compass and barometer sensors. The PN-20 is now just a fantastic value for those who don't need or want what the PN-40 offers.

 

It would seem the next addition would be the premium model PN-60. That would have the big screen as the main draw. It will cost more. Those of us wanting the big screen will gladly pay; those who want to go cheaper will have the 20 or the 40 as alternatives. The PN-20 was Delorme's first GPS handheld; it helps to see the PN-40 in the context of the eventual development of a full GPS product line. But I don't think they t have the resources to develop multiple models at the same time.

[+bikercr]

Over the years, GPS screens have evolved from black and white, to small color screens, to larger color and finally, touch screens. Just as black and white screens now seem like technology from a distant past, the tiny color screens on most of today's trail-oriented GPS units, including the PN series, will seem antique in a year or two.

Another point (I was going on too long above) as to why Delorme may have stuck with a small screen: as a small company, they don't have the resources to offer multiple models aimed at every customer niche. They are faced with including as many desired features as possible but at low a cost as possible. Larger screens cost more money...money that some of us would gladly fork over, but cost will be the more important consideration for others. The screens sizes of Colorados and Oregons appeal to many of us [all of us?], but there are still a lot of eTrex's sold.

 

So far Delorme has tried to find the sweet spot of balancing cost against features. With the PN-40, Delorme now has a low-cost offering in the PN-20, and a mid-price offering in the PN-40. It's essentially a reworking of the PN-20 to give it the needed processing power, adding in requested compass and barometer sensors. The PN-20 is now just a fantastic value for those who don't need or want what the PN-40 offers.

 

It would seem the next addition would be the premium model PN-60. That would have the big screen as the main draw. It will cost more. Those of us wanting the big screen will gladly pay; those who want to go cheaper will have the 20 or the 40 as alternatives. The PN-20 was Delorme's first GPS handheld; it helps to see the PN-40 in the context of the eventual development of a full GPS product line. But I don't think they t have the resources to develop multiple models at the same time.

Your points are very well taken, and I agree with you for the most part.

 

I don't really know anything about Delorme's customer service or responsiveness and trust that they are listening to their customers. But the way they're touting the PN-40 with advertisements and flashy video all over the GPS websites, you'd think this was some revolutionary product. But, unfortunately, it isn't. It's a rehash of old screen technology when better stuff is already available. If you're going to come out with a fantastic upgrade, why not give us a useable screen rather than a postage stamp? If Delorme just made that one change, rather than sticking with the old form factor, they'd have me for a long-term customer right now and succeeded in pulling me away from Garmin's tractor beam. The extra development and production costs would have made this product the category killer. Now, it's just another barely evolutionary device that's obsolete the moment it's first released.

 

Like lots of other folks into hiking and geocaching, I'm ready right now to buy a new device. Although the 60CSx is functioning well, it isn't very useful for paperless caching and its screen is smaller than I'd like while the whole form factor is heavy and bulky. But, after reading literally dozens of complaints about Garmin's new devices, their poor quality control and major compromises, as well as the lack of truly current, detailed topo maps without paying through the nose for crippled programs with only 2 states on each (and none from the east coast), I have no motivation to buy these products. Yes, like you, I want to support the industry. But no, I'm not going to settle for something I'll want to replace a few weeks or months from now. Garmin and Delorme need to make quality AND innovation a part of their business plan. Until then, I'm sticking with my trusty 60 CSx.

[+geognerd]

Magellan is hardly a good example of how to run a handheld GPS receiver business, but do recall that the original line of eXplorists (which had a screen about the same size as the PN-40) came out first. Then Magellan eventually came out with the eXplorist XL, which had a 3.5" screen and operated off of 4 AA batteries. The big screen is a novelty. Most people will do just fine with the normal-sized screen. Maybe DeLorme will have a larger-screened version in the future for those who want to pay for it.

[+RRLover]

Magellan is hardly a good example of how to run a handheld GPS receiver business, but do recall that the original line of eXplorists (which had a screen about the same size as the PN-40) came out first. Then Magellan eventually came out with the eXplorist XL, which had a 3.5" screen and operated off of 4 AA batteries. The big screen is a novelty. Most people will do just fine with the normal-sized screen. Maybe DeLorme will have a larger-screened version in the future for those who want to pay for it.

Good points, I'm a holder of an XL, and agree up to the "novelty" part, it is an effective display, both in

resolution and size. Their file structure was intuitive, . . . uhhh?! once you got used to it, very effective.

But it seems that the Co. changed horses in the rapids and got washed away, Oh well "water under the

bridge".

If I'm not mistaken DeLorme is a privately held Co., that makes a big difference in avail. resources

for product development, and marketing. Those differences are "close to the bone" economies, and a high

reliance on personnel having strong senses of personal satisfaction in their own job performance. I've

placed my faith in them after having quite a few talks (writes) with their staff on multiple levels, and

with members of their "ad-hoc" support teams of volunteers via the DeLorme Forum. I'm impressed!

Knowing that my next GPSr should, if all goes according to plan be @ my doorstep in roughly ten days

makes me feel like Festivus is coming early, and indeed it will be. I also realize that the '40' is a stepping

stone, I never once thought these devices would have 10 year careers, unless pressed to that service.

My main disappointment with Maggie?!? . . . callous, cavalier, disregard for their existing customer base,

the whole eXplorist line EOLd before the XL was two years old, THAT'S COLD! I'm past the half century

mark, I've made many decisions throughout, good'ns & bad'ns, I, for one, think this is a good'n!

 

Norm

Edited November 13, 2008 by RRLover

[+coreynjoey]

(but still lightest of the bunch... how odd)

 

Anyone know if the PN-40 will float with Lithiums?

 

GO$Rs

 

I was told it would float with Lithiums....briefly. Hopefully long enough for you to make a quick grab before it sinks

 

They have some exciting features for geocaching coming out for the PN series

http://blog.delorme.com/2008/11/11/geocach...the-mac-and-pc/

 

The desktop widget looks cool! I like the removing of the 800 character limit for the cache details!

[+user13371]

Just to throw my two cents worth here (and admitting my opinion may be over priced): Look at the iPhone for a minute.

 

Shirt-pocket-slim, lightweight form factor, general purpose handheld computer, huge bright daylight readable touch-screen, 8 or 16 gig of RAM depending on the model, camera, speakers, microphone, accelerometers, multiple radio devices (wifi, bluetooth, cell phone, and even a GPS in the newest models), etc... Out the door cheaper than a lot of premium consumer grade GPSRs, but then again it's subsidized by the monthly service.

 

The iPhone shows how much CAN be done in that form factor. Even understanding that DeLorme and Garmin and others don't have Apple's cash reserves or R&D budgets - that constructive proof really makes all the rationalizations about what the GPS makers CAN'T do sound a bit hollow.

Edited November 14, 2008 by lee_rimar

[SiliconFiend]

Just to throw my two cents worth here (and admitting my opinion may be over priced): Look at the iPhone for a minute.

 

Shirt-pocket-slim, lightweight form factor, general purpose handheld computer, huge bright daylight readable touch-screen, 8 or 16 gig of RAM depending on the model, camera, speakers, microphone, accelerometers, multiple radio devices (wifi, bluetooth, cell phone, and even a GPS in the newest models), etc... Out the door cheaper than a lot of premium consumer grade GPSRs, but then again it's subsidized by the monthly service.

 

The iPhone shows how much CAN be done in that form factor. Even understanding that DeLorme and Garmin and others don't have Apple's cash reserves or R&D budgets - that constructive proof really makes all the rationalizations about what the GPS makers CAN'T do sound a bit hollow.

In defense of GPS manufacturers, the production volume on phones is much larger than GPS receivers, so Apple, et al can get a better deal (strongarm vendors) on components. Plus, there is the ongoing revenue to consider in terms of a subsidy. In the case of the iPhone, the service is a cash stream, as well as sales from their Apps store. For GPS manufacturers, they have maps for future revenue, but other than that, after your initial cash outlay, you as a consumer represent more of a liability (support or warranty issues) than a potential future revenue stream for that particular device sale.

 

Also, GPS receivers are more durable than phones. I doubt you would find any iPhone owner willing to drop it onto concrete from 3 feet, but you might find some GPS owners that would (reluctantly) do it because of its higher robustness. And you wouldn't find any (sane) iPhone owner that would dunk their phone in a foot of water while it was operating, but many GPS owners would gladly perform that demonstration.

 

So yes, GPS manufacturers could (and should) do more, but I don't think it's as easy or clear-cut as some posters have suggested.

[+Team DeLorme]

There's already been a lot said about our device so I'll see if I can just add some details... The PN-40 is a second generation device designed to build on the work done with the PN-20 and address several key areas identified for improvement. In particular we wanted to increase the performance with the dual processor and we wanted to add compass, altimeter, and accelerometer sensors. On the way to this goal we wanted to maintain a competitive price point and not compromise any of the positive feedback we received with our PN-20 release.

 

We considered a screen size increase during early development but decided against it after weighing the pros and cons. While a larger screen area would be beneficial, the increased size and form factor changes required would have increased the end cost of the device significantly. We were also seeing mixed reviews on the daylight readability and power consumption of the larger screen devices being released. In the end we decided that the excellent daylight readability, lower cost, and lower power consumption of our current screen was more important than the benefits offered by the screen size increase.

 

We do appreciate all of the feedback on the various forums. As we plan for the next DeLorme GPS device we will certainly revisit these screen size requests and look for a system that better fits our outdoor, serious tool needs.

 

SiliconFiend, I don't try the concrete test that often but I've got some fun video of the IPX7 "3 feet for 30 minutes" waterproofing demonstration.

 

http://delorme.http.internapcdn.net/deLorm...emo/default.htm

 

Follow the Serious Performance tab then the Waterproof link...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[gps_dr]

Your points are very well taken, and I agree with you for the most part.

 

I don't really know anything about Delorme's customer service or responsiveness and trust that they are listening to their customers. But the way they're touting the PN-40 with advertisements and flashy video all over the GPS websites, you'd think this was some revolutionary product. But, unfortunately, it isn't. It's a rehash of old screen technology when better stuff is already available. If you're going to come out with a fantastic upgrade, why not give us a useable screen rather than a postage stamp? If Delorme just made that one change, rather than sticking with the old form factor, they'd have me for a long-term customer right now and succeeded in pulling me away from Garmin's tractor beam. The extra development and production costs would have made this product the category killer. Now, it's just another barely evolutionary device that's obsolete the moment it's first released.

 

Like lots of other folks into hiking and geocaching, I'm ready right now to buy a new device. Although the 60CSx is functioning well, it isn't very useful for paperless caching and its screen is smaller than I'd like while the whole form factor is heavy and bulky. But, after reading literally dozens of complaints about Garmin's new devices, their poor quality control and major compromises, as well as the lack of truly current, detailed topo maps without paying through the nose for crippled programs with only 2 states on each (and none from the east coast), I have no motivation to buy these products. Yes, like you, I want to support the industry. But no, I'm not going to settle for something I'll want to replace a few weeks or months from now. Garmin and Delorme need to make quality AND innovation a part of their business plan. Until then, I'm sticking with my trusty 60 CSx.

In many ways the PN40 is a revolutionary new GPS, there is no perfect GPS for all users.

For many people, GPS with screens as large as your 60CSx are too big and too heavy.

 

I've used the 60CSx better half (76CSx) for 20 months now. It is a very reliable and usable unit.

 

There are trade offs in everything - and different users have different needs

 

The Colorado/Oregon units pack in higher resolution, a larger screen and some gee-whiz stuff but failed to keep some things that are critical to some users:

* Handlebar visibility (tilting screen to shield/see as you move is not an option here so forget your cell phone.)

* Multiple tracklog display (not everything appears on existing maps and maps are always out of date)

So I got rid of my Colorado and got a PN40. For less money I have a unit that is the best current GPS for my uses: (hiking, hunting & cycling). I've used it for 3 months now and am convinced of it's value.

 

The DeLorme PN-40 is a huge step forward in usability out in the woods or on the water.

Your phone nor any of the other consumer GPS units including Bushnell's Onyx series can display 1M resolution imagery anywhere at an affordable price (not just where you have cell phone service).

The addition of selectable contour line overlays gives you a feel for terrain w/o having to switch map types. What cell phones display multiple tracklogs at one time or allows you to see data from tracks you created as overlays on whatever map view you want to use:

* Vector Topo

* USGS quad raster images

* 1M B&W or color imagery

* Hi res imagery in many areas

* Navigational charts

* Street maps

The imagery is sufficiently detailed on their puny screen to allow me to select routes thru heavy timber avoiding deadends and deadfalls.

 

When your cell phone does all of these, is waterproof, rugged, stores a thousand waypoints, without an outrageous monthly fee then come back and talk.

DeLorme does not have the financial clout to remake the world.

Magellan blew their "re-invention" of the GPS by not releasing a usable device. DeLorme seeks out user feedback unlike any other GPS manufacturer. I know they would like to make a device with a larger, higher resolution screen, but don't have the resources to create the "perfect device" for you immediately.

Edited November 14, 2008 by gps_dr