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Terrible cache hiders...


Rev Mike

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I think the questions was some thing like who based on previous experience now ignores certain cache hiders?

Rev, thanx for steering the topic back on topic. To answer your question accurately, I'd have to say, "Yes & No". My account is a team, consisting of myself, my wife and our youngest heathen. We each have different preferences, which are quite different. I like regulars that put you nipple deep in a swamp. Viv likes urban micros. Munchkin likes regulars in well manicured parks.

 

As such, I have several PQs running to maximize our enjoyment. There is at least one local who likes spitting out film canisters at every fast food joint they can find, which, though fun for them, and for those who like fast & easy, are not my cup of tea. The PQ I load for my own hunting automatically excludes their hides. Should they ever hide anything larger than a film can, I'll check it out and possibly reevaluate my technique accordingly.

 

When Viv & I hunt together, we go hunt those caches which I would not search for on my own, including those hidden by the cacher I've been "ignoring".

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Does anyone in here have any problems with the caches of specific hiders?

 

I know we all have our own preferences when it comes to what types of caches we like to look for and this post is not about that. It is about hiders that put out nothing but garbage. I personally have a list of hiders who have demonstrated that they really should not be in the business of hiding caches. I will never again look for another cache by one of those people.

This is one of the reasons I have been asking for this feature. :laughing:
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Does anyone in here have any problems with the caches of specific hiders?

 

I know we all have our own preferences when it comes to what types of caches we like to look for and this post is not about that. It is about hiders that put out nothing but garbage. I personally have a list of hiders who have demonstrated that they really should not be in the business of hiding caches. I will never again look for another cache by one of those people.

 

Yes. I have a list of some of those hiders. I don't ignore them. I save them for a rainy day, when I'm suffering cache withdrawal. If they're still there. Those film canisters in a guard rail, or tucked near a tree don't seem to last long. Or the take out food containers. When the weather is nice, I look for the better caches (defined by my opinon, of course.)

My Ignore List is for those caches in which I have absolutely no interest (in my case, cemetery caches, for example. Won't even do them when I'm desperate.), caches by owners with whom I have had conflicts (you give me a hard time, there are lots of other caches to look for!), or the owner who hides lots of caches, but never, ever, performs maintenance. (150 hidden. 125 archived for no maintenance. Or something to that effect.)

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Nope. We don't ignore any cache. Sure, there are some that we don't find exciting, but in the same thought I'm sure that we have some hides that are not the top of the heap either! The real thing for us is this area was really slow when we started caching just over a year ago, and since then, (we like to think we had some small part in it) there are several new cachers and more caches being hidden. To us, any cache is a good cache when there aren't many in the area. We also subscribe to the idea that a cache is a gift from the hider, and a "thank you" should be given for any and every gift you receive, whether exactly what you wanted or not! The only caches I ever ignore are ones that have needed attention for some time and are not being responded to. Actually .... that's not true! I put them on my watch list to see if they ever get fixed so I can then go hunt them! :rolleyes:

There is a new cache in the area by a new person that has only one find, and this one hide. From the location and clue, I know exactly where the cache is and will go get it as soon as I am able and I won't even need my GPSr! Does it bother me that it isn't an exciting cache? Not at all! At least it is some activity and hopefully the hider will get better with caching maurity.

 

Guess that's a long-winded way of saying We have never yet put any hider on ignore, or felt the need to do so!

 

This is a nice post. You probably think some of us American cache ignorers are nuts then. :laughing: But believe me, if I lived in SW Ontario, I'm sure I'd feel the same way you do. I haven't cached in your area, but kind of close (Sarnia or St. Thomas), and I took a quick glance at your area. I didn't see anything I'd ignore. There's also a post from someone a few after yours from rural Nebraska, expressing many of the same sentiments.

 

So I guess this is a long winded way of saying it all depends on where you call home. ;)

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Are there hiders whose caches I ignore? Yep, I can think of one right off the top of my head. I have attempted a couple of their hides and came away less than happy with the experience.

 

Most are micros and while I occasionally look for micros, they aren't my first choice. The problem is that I'm familiar with the hiding areas and they would, as a general rule, support a larger cache that families would enjoy. Most children in a large park or wooded area enjoy something besides a BYOP nano.

 

One of theirs has numerous logs asking the CO to verify coordinates, because no one finds it using hers. Another hasn't been found since summer of 2007 and maintenance isn't noted. Still another has been missing (per a previous finder of that cache) since early Spring of this year.

 

Most listing pages have moving GIFs, or HTML, or some other computer letter thingies that I find distracting while I read. Sorry, they just get on my nerves and I shouldn't have to change any settings on my computer just to read a cache page.

 

So, while that particular CO may have fun hiding those kinds of caches, I don't have fun trying to find them. They play the game their way and I play it mine.

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Most listing pages have moving GIFs, or HTML, or some other computer letter thingies that I find distracting while I read. Sorry, they just get on my nerves and I shouldn't have to change any settings on my computer just to read a cache page.

 

There is one of these CO's in my area too. While I can appreciate that they are trying to make the listing more entertaining, I simply find it annoying as hell! :)

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I have a handful of them myself...

Having hunted for more than a dozen caches hidden by your account and by your team account, I'd have to agree. Pretty much all of them fall into what you described in your OP.

 

I found one of Rev. Mikes Earth caches a few weeks ago. I was one of best earth caches I have found and is located in one of the most spectacular spots within hundreds of miles.

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I have ignored all the offerings of one cacher. We went out with some other cachers one day and did three of his caches (among others), and discovered they weren't really the sort of cache we like to find.

 

The containers were "nothing unusual" or interesting, the directions were poorly written, the caches were hidden in overgrown abandoned industrial areas among broken glass and buckling pavement with waist high weeds including poison ivy and stick-tights, and the caches were all unsually far from the posted coords --50 to 70 feet.

 

When we emailed him to nicely tell him that all of us had had some trouble with the coords on those caches, he told us he always gave deliberately "soft" coords "to make it a bit more challenging" to find the caches.

 

I've always said that every cache ought to have at least one redeeming quality:

 

*have a pretty view

*offer a nice walk/hike

*tell a good backstory

*show me something historic/unusual

*be cleverly hidden

*be easy to find

*have a creative container

His caches didn't have any of those that I could see. I looked at the rest of his caches and from the logs that they were more of the same kind of thing. And then I made his caches almost completely disappear from my life by clicking the ignore button. He moved away eventually.

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They play the game their way and I play it mine.

 

I think that's the most important thing to remember while geocaching.

 

Everyone plays the game a different way, with different goals in mind. There isn't some main grand prize we are all shooting for.

 

Caches that I think are lame, they may think are great.

 

So, I just play the game my way, keep to myself, and I have more fun that way.

 

But to answer the question..... Yes... I do have one that I ignore. I'll hunt their Earthcaches, but nothing else. We had a run in a few years ago, and I just don't like the guy, so I don't hunt his caches. It's how I play the game.

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Does anyone in here have any problems with the caches of specific hiders?

 

I know we all have our own preferences when it comes to what types of caches we like to look for and this post is not about that. It is about hiders that put out nothing but garbage. I personally have a list of hiders who have demonstrated that they really should not be in the business of hiding caches. I will never again look for another cache by one of those people.

 

These are people that hide caches (for whatever reason - this is also not about their motives) that demonstrate terrible judgement in their placements, lack of any inspiration, foolish ALRs, obscenely inaccurate coordinates, bad ratings, unsafe locations,

 

and any number of other things that just suck the fun out of geocaching.

 

I have a handful of them myself...

 

I am tired of trying to go drop a couple of travel bugs (that I have been holding on to for longer than I like) and going to the nearest cache that claims to be a regular just to find that is smaller than my GPS.

 

I am tired of EarthCaches placed by people that don't even try to come up with any thing good.

 

I am tired of seeing entire areas saturated with filmcans at fast food chains hidden by people just trying to make a name for themselves with the "local numbers cachers."

 

I am tires of seeing one terrain caches in the rafters of picnic pavilions... none of the people confined to wheelchairs that I know have "go-go-gadget arms."

 

I am tired of finding caches placed without permission.

 

In short I am just tired of people placing caches for the sake of placing caches and not even taking the time to do it half right.

 

 

Who else has hiders that have earned having anything they ever hide automatically ignored?

Who has thoughts on this?

 

One final caveat: If you reply DO NOT POST NAMES OR GC NUMBERS... this is just a general discussion.

 

- Rev Mike

 

OOoooOOoooOOoo Angsty. :)

 

How many people were betting I'd post my "Gift Horse" on page one? :rolleyes:

 

328897.jpg

 

Rev. Mike,

 

Thank YOU for identifying yet another branch on my Geocaching Tree of Angst:

 

To summarize our "Geocaching Tree of Angst" so far:

 

We have an atmosphere rich with CO2 that is represented by one atom of "Entitlement" ( C ) and two atoms of "Expectation." (O2) :)

 

We have a rich medium for the growth of angst in our soil, which is represented by a common/general, "unawareness that this hobby is intrinsically linked to other people." :D

 

The water (H2O) that nourishes the tree is either actual or perceived (H2) negative interaction (O) between geocachers. :rolleyes:

 

Our tree is furtilized by misconception, misinterpretation, and misunderstanding (MMM) whether actual or deliberate. :rolleyes:

 

The roots of our tree are based in actual participation and experience in geocaching as an activity.... Hiding, finding, & moving trackables. :angry:

 

The trunk of our tree emerges over time. It is actually just individual experience that expresses itself in this way, "I know better than YOU what geocaching is supposed/intended to be all about." :rolleyes:

 

From there our "Tree of Angst" branches out in many directions. Some branches sprout from the trunk and some branches think they are attacking the trunk from the other side, but are seemingly unaware that they are part of the same tree. :D

 

The named branches of our tree so far:

 

The Theory of Geocaching Evolution

 

Geocaching would be more fun for me, IF :D:rolleyes:

 

Perceived Staunch Defenders of Everything Perceived Lame (P.S.D.E.P.L.)

 

Geocaching was so much better way back when

 

The Theory That It's the "OTHER GUY" Who Is Just Sucking the Fun Out of Geocaching

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Until a better system is created-it is up to the cache seekers to read the menus/logs carefully to ensure that you are getting what you want out of your caching day. If you aren't having fun, it's your own dadgum fault not someone else's. There are plenty of caches out there of all sorts.

 

I really like the way that you put this. Some people like some kinds of caches, and other people don't, and all of it's subject to change.

 

When I'm alone, I don't mind bushwhacking to some interesting place. I like it, even.

 

When the baby's with me, I don't really want to bushwhack. A micro in an interesting but easy-to-access place is just fine with me, then.

 

And part of the fun of learning about geocaching (for me, at least) was, well, learning. "What is a 'Mr. Magneto'?" "What can I learn about the cache by looking at the way it's written up and the tenor of its logs?" It's been a lot of fun.

 

But you know, hiding's been fun too. I have made some mistakes (poor Crowe, my reviewer, had to fix a cache of mine's coordinates three times). But if I had to wait until I had 100 finds? It would take me forever because I'm in a place that's relatively bare with only a few devoted geocachers here at a time (high turnover). I'm honored I could help out the local situation by hiding four caches, and they've been well-received so far.

 

I think a person could find 100 caches or be a cacher for 100 years and still not "grok" what a good cache is all about. It's not just the experience -- it's the person.

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Rev. Mike,

 

Thank YOU for identifying yet another branch on my Geocaching Tree of Angst:

 

To summarize our "Geocaching Tree of Angst" so far:

 

We have an atmosphere rich with CO2 that is represented by one atom of "Entitlement" ( C ) and two atoms of "Expectation." (O2) :)

 

We have a rich medium for the growth of angst in our soil, which is represented by a common/general, "unawareness that this hobby is intrinsically linked to other people." :D

 

The water (H2O) that nourishes the tree is either actual or perceived (H2) negative interaction (O) between geocachers. :rolleyes:

 

Our tree is furtilized by misconception, misinterpretation, and misunderstanding (MMM) whether actual or deliberate. :rolleyes:

 

The roots of our tree are based in actual participation and experience in geocaching as an activity.... Hiding, finding, & moving trackables. :rolleyes:

 

The trunk of our tree emerges over time. It is actually just individual experience that expresses itself in this way, "I know better than YOU what geocaching is supposed/intended to be all about." :rolleyes:

 

From there our "Tree of Angst" branches out in many directions. Some branches sprout from the trunk and some branches think they are attacking the trunk from the other side, but are seemingly unaware that they are part of the same tree. :angry:

 

The named branches of our tree so far:

 

The Theory of Geocaching Evolution

 

Geocaching would be more fun for me, IF :rolleyes::)

 

Perceived Staunch Defenders of Everything Perceived Lame (P.S.D.E.P.L.)

 

Geocaching was so much better way back when

 

The Theory That It's the "OTHER GUY" Who Is Just Sucking the Fun Out of Geocaching

I really don't think this applies here at all. Rev Mike is saying he ignores hiders who regularly hide things he doesn't like. He's taking his enjoyment into his own hands. He knows what he likes and he avoids the rest. Isn't that what you and others preach?

Edited by Dinoprophet
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Rev. Mike,

 

Thank YOU for identifying yet another branch on my Geocaching Tree of Angst:

 

To summarize our "Geocaching Tree of Angst" so far:

 

We have an atmosphere rich with CO2 that is represented by one atom of "Entitlement" ( C ) and two atoms of "Expectation." (O2) :)

 

We have a rich medium for the growth of angst in our soil, which is represented by a common/general, "unawareness that this hobby is intrinsically linked to other people." :D

 

The water (H2O) that nourishes the tree is either actual or perceived (H2) negative interaction (O) between geocachers. :rolleyes:

 

Our tree is furtilized by misconception, misinterpretation, and misunderstanding (MMM) whether actual or deliberate. :rolleyes:

 

The roots of our tree are based in actual participation and experience in geocaching as an activity.... Hiding, finding, & moving trackables. :rolleyes:

 

The trunk of our tree emerges over time. It is actually just individual experience that expresses itself in this way, "I know better than YOU what geocaching is supposed/intended to be all about." :rolleyes:

 

From there our "Tree of Angst" branches out in many directions. Some branches sprout from the trunk and some branches think they are attacking the trunk from the other side, but are seemingly unaware that they are part of the same tree. :angry:

 

The named branches of our tree so far:

 

The Theory of Geocaching Evolution

 

Geocaching would be more fun for me, IF :rolleyes::)

 

Perceived Staunch Defenders of Everything Perceived Lame (P.S.D.E.P.L.)

 

Geocaching was so much better way back when

 

The Theory That It's the "OTHER GUY" Who Is Just Sucking the Fun Out of Geocaching

I really don't think this applies here at all. Rev Mike is saying he ignores hiders who regularly hide things he doesn't like. He's taking his enjoyment into his own hands. He knows what he likes and he avoids the rest. Isn't that what you and others preach?

 

Correct. And to expand on that even further, in the OP, Rev. Mike is talking about "terrible hides" from the standpoint of things such as consistently bad coords; poor quality, non-waterproof containers; private property without permission; placer history of lack of response to maintainance issues etc....

 

You'd think most people could agree that something like (hypothetical example) A Chinese Fast food container, in a trash-filled teen party spot, with the coords 60 feet off is a "terrible hide". But apparently there are some people who just like to argue. :D

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You'd think most people could agree that something like (hypothetical example) A Chinese Fast food container, in a trash-filled teen party spot, with the coords 60 feet off is a "terrible hide". But apparently there are some people who just like to argue. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah? What about those folks who love inadequate containers in detritus filled locations? Huh? Who are you to dictate what kind of fun someone prefers?

:rolleyes::):rolleyes::):rolleyes::rolleyes:

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can't say I ignore any certain cacher in the area. Anytime we go out caching we have a great time no matter what caches we find. I guess we have a more social aspect of caching then quality of the cache. Our normal cache planner tends to route us a variety of cache hides and terrain levels. If I'm going by myself or with zoie, I'll read the pages and pick caches I think we'll be able to complete. We like shorter hikes (zoie will only walk about 1 1/2 miles).

 

I remember when I first met you. Was at an event and we were running around finding event cache after event cache. To read your post on here-what a complete turn around from the guy I met way back then! I do agree with some of your points. I haven't really looked at any of the new local caches in my area yet. I'm hoping to get some new ones out. Working on a long hike cache, a couple medium hikes and an earthcache. They're taking a bit of time and research. Hopefully when they do get published-the reviews are good!

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Just wanted to add that I do understand where Rev Mike is coming from. I haven't ever done anything like this (I have been caching since yesterday, relatively speaking), but I think that if I did figure out that a person had a pattern of hiding caches that did not get the point of good caches*, I'd ignore their caches too. I can see that having a feature that lets you ignore all of a certain person's caches would be useful, especially if that person has a large number of caches.

 

*your mileage may vary. My idea of a good cache is that it is interesting: the cache is interesting, it is an interesting place, or you have to do something interesting to get there**.

 

**By "interesting", I mean, "aesthetically or intellectually interesting", as opposed to "something Vinny and Sue would be interested in."

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Like Jackalgirl, I also understand where Rev. Mike is coming from. I'm just a bit shy to say so since I'm always afraid that I'm one of those hiders for my area. I do my best, I swear!

 

But I maintain, I answer people when they contact me (and even contact them for feedback!), I keep people out of danger and try to make it interesting. I even try to upgrade or archive now that I know better. I'm probably not the kind of person that Rev. Mike is describing... but I'm probably still boring as heck. Sorry, y'all.

 

One thing that I consider is where I'm bringing someone. While I can navigate to a cache hide without disturbing things, I can do it because I know where it is. I have to think about the muggle-oblivious seeker who could unintentionally trample daisies, behead tulips and cause general unrest. While they'd be responsible for their actions, I'm also responsible because I put that human-bulldozer to work.

 

So, instead of placing a deviously camoflauged rock or stick or bamboo shoot or [insert another container that mimicks nature] that's a 2/4, I'll keep cachers out of the bushes and do a boring bench cache or tuck it in the nook of a tree with a 1/1. People could think I'm unimaginative and wasting the space by not integrating it better into the wonderful park... that I want them to experience and enjoy, not tear up or be suspected of tearing up.

 

- Elle

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I think the questions was some thing like who based on previous experience now ignores certain cache hiders?

 

Not about who was caching the longest, what types of caches are crappy, or even a crappy hider's motives for placing a cache.

 

Yup, we do. Nice people, boring (if not missing) caches. Pretty much normal I'm sure for most locales.

 

Truth to tell, this thread has me thinking back over our cache hides. Time to archive! We can't all be Michelangelo! :)

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You'd think most people could agree that something like (hypothetical example) A Chinese Fast food container, in a trash-filled teen party spot, with the coords 60 feet off is a "terrible hide". But apparently there are some people who just like to argue. :D

Oh yeah? What about those folks who love inadequate containers in detritus filled locations? Huh? Who are you to dictate what kind of fun someone prefers?

:rolleyes::):rolleyes::):angry::rolleyes:

It boggles the imagination... :rolleyes:

 

I would think 100% of people don't like caches that have coordinates that are a mile off but based on what I've read over the years in these forums that would be a bad assumption... :rolleyes:

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You'd think most people could agree that something like (hypothetical example) A Chinese Fast food container, in a trash-filled teen party spot, with the coords 60 feet off is a "terrible hide". But apparently there are some people who just like to argue. :D

Oh yeah? What about those folks who love inadequate containers in detritus filled locations? Huh? Who are you to dictate what kind of fun someone prefers?

:rolleyes::):rolleyes::):angry::rolleyes:

In my opinion those caches suck. Surprised?

 

After all this time you guys are still confusing preference with tolerance.

 

It boggles the imagination... :rolleyes:

 

I would think 100% of people don't like caches that have coordinates that are a mile off but based on what I've read over the years in these forums that would be a bad assumption... :rolleyes:

Especially if you have no qualms about intentionally misinterpreting and exaggerating the viewpoints of those with whom you disagree.

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You'd think most people could agree that something like (hypothetical example) A Chinese Fast food container, in a trash-filled teen party spot, with the coords 60 feet off is a "terrible hide". But apparently there are some people who just like to argue. :D

Oh yeah? What about those folks who love inadequate containers in detritus filled locations? Huh? Who are you to dictate what kind of fun someone prefers?

:rolleyes::):rolleyes::):angry::rolleyes:

In my opinion those caches suck. Surprised?

 

After all this time you guys are still confusing preference with tolerance.

 

It boggles the imagination... :rolleyes:

 

I would think 100% of people don't like caches that have coordinates that are a mile off but based on what I've read over the years in these forums that would be a bad assumption... :rolleyes:

Especially if you have no qualms about intentionally misinterpreting and exaggerating the viewpoints of those with whom you disagree.

No disrespect meant with my post and I wasn't disagreeing with anyone. My point was that more I post in these forums the more I realize that I'll never understand why some people like what they like. It's just interesting to me to be given a mystery that I'll never understand.
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No disrespect meant with my post and I wasn't disagreeing with anyone. My point was that more I post in these forums the more I realize that I'll never understand why some people like what they like. It's just interesting to me to be given a mystery that I'll never understand.

I apparently misinterpreted you. Thanks for the clarification. That's actually a very positive and healthy attitude.

 

One might even call it 'tolerance.' :)

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I have observed the work of people just like you describe, but I have never felt the need to place a cache on ignore.

 

I have found plenty of caches which disappointed me – sometimes for aesthetic reasons (lame concept), sometimes for practical reasons (bad container, etc.), sometimes both – but I have always found it easy to tolerate such things because of ONE fact, a fact which became immediately and intuitively obvious to me the very moment I learned about Geocaching:

 

All geocaches are hidden by amateur volunteers.

 

It is my experience that the adversity to any standard when it comes to hiding a Geocaching is unique to a small but very vocal minority in this forum. Those are the regulars who use words like entitlement and are always found defending, or even promoting, certain types of hides.

 

My real life caching experience is different. The majority of cachers that I encounter raise two bars when it comes to hiding. There's the minimum bar which involves very little subjectivity. That has to do with using an appropriate weather proof container, general safety of the seeker, accuracy of star and terrain rating, and compliance with Geocaching Guidelines. This is where my personal expectation or entitlement, if you will, ends. But I always hope for more.

 

The second bar is a little more subjective and it is where the divide occurs for many. It begins with an answer to a simple question. It goes like this; "Besides something to find with a GPS that will allow you to record a find on the website, why was this Geocache placed? What was the intended experience?" It is how we perceive the answer to this simple question (or if it should even be asked) that varies greatly and it is at the root of many heated discussions in this forum. For me, it is a critical and important question. I feel extremely fortunate to cache where I do because I think the perception is different than a lot of other areas that I read about here.

 

In many areas I have experienced, including the island of Oahu, I have observed a geo-culture that has developed where the answer to that simple question describing purpose and the planning of a hide is often very detailed and would take several paragraphs to describe. The collective bar is set high and a cache hide is more of a performing art than a container hidden to be found by a GPS. The expectation of purpose a of a new hide is something new to see, learn, or feel. This type of positive energy and approach to hiding a cache is not only nurtured but openly applauded in the local Geocaching Community. This general appreciation for effort is contagious and the activity benefits as a whole. Also, something unique to my community is that living on an island with 600 or so caches makes caching for numbers kind of a silly notion. I think this is an advantage we enjoy that keeps the overall quality of the game high.

 

In other areas described regularly in this forum the first bar is set much lower, if it even exists. The mantra seems to be "any cache is a good cache." Any suggestion that a hider invest time and energy into finding a place where people is met with words like "entitlement" or "selfishness." Overall, I think it is the clash of these two distinctly different attitudes that causes a lot of angst here.

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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I'm not sure that the objection here is to your idea of bars, or that the second bar should be high. I think it's about the definition of what a good cache is (i.e., where that second bar is), and attempts to control the game so that only good caches are placed.

 

The problem is that there's either an outright suggestion of -- or undercurrent of suggesting -- that there could or should be some kind of system for controlling that quality, such as reviewers making sure that all caches are "good caches" (according to some set of definitions) and refusing to publish ones that aren't "good", or some other means of control, such as people being allowed to "trash out" caches that are "bad", for example. Or the ever-present suggestion that only people with x finds should be allowed to place a cache, which would be fine in a saturated area but not so good in places where there are not a lot of caches and high turnover of caches (such as around Misawa, where I am -- if we had to find, say, 100 caches before we could place one, there would be very few caches here, and I suspect that most of the cachers here would find an alternate online caching system that would allow us to place caches just so that we could have some). This is not an all-inclusive list.

 

Ultimately, though, what's "good" for one cacher is "bad" for another, and vice versa, and I suspect that the majority of the caches that are considered "lame" by one cacher is perfectly fine (even preferred) by another. I think that this is the general point that what you call "the entitlement people" are trying to make.

 

Having said that, though, I don't think that there would be much argument that some caches just plain suck by anyone's standards.

 

But what to do with it? Create a new system of standards that either places a lot of extra work on the reviewers? Encourage vigilante cache posses? Is the problem so tremendously huge that the system as we know it has to be changed so that cache quality is rules-mandated and then somehow enforced, assuming that the community could even agree on a set of standards in the first place?

 

Or is it a small enough problem that it could be solved by people ignoring crappy caches and/or crappy cache hiders or -- even better -- by an experienced or talented cacher taking the crappy cache hider under his/her wing (if the crappy cache hider is willing)?

 

How big is the problem?

Edited by Jackalgirl
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I've always said that every cache ought to have at least one redeeming quality:

 

*have a pretty view

*offer a nice walk/hike

*tell a good backstory

*show me something historic/unusual

*be cleverly hidden

*be easy to find

*have a creative container

This is perfect, I totally agree with you! You have captured it exactly. While it asks a lot of amateur hobbyists to make each cache they hide memorable in some way, it really is important for the health of the hobby. If everyone just went around throwing out film cans it'd cheapen the experience and while I'm not asking for every single one to be something special I do believe the hobby is belittled in areas which have an overly high proportion of lame hides to good ones. Each quality of the things Neos2 mentioned makes a cache memorable and really adds to the experience of the find. It was nice that the first two caches I found on the first day were both memorable ones, thus hooking me for sure and making me more dedicated to the hobby. I'm not sure if I'd be as enthusiastic about the sport or find it to be all that special if my first 5 finds were all in Burger King parking lots or on the side of highways. Those early ones really shape your perception of it going forward, at least in my opinion.

Edited by Vartan84
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Who else has hiders that have earned having anything they ever hide automatically ignored?

 

None of the hiders in my area are at the stage of "automatically ignored" -- yet. However, I do have about three cache hiders where I run every new cache they place through my personal filter before I decide whether or not it is something I want to hunt.

 

IF cache description = "high visibility location" THEN Ignore GOTO End

IF cache map = "built-up urban area" THEN ignore GOTO End

IF cache size = "micro" OR cache size = "Unknown" THEN Ignore GOTO End

IF cache type = "puzzle" AND cache difficulty = "stupid hard" THEN Ignore GOTO End

 

:END

Cache is worthy of being included in a Pocket Query.

 

:P

 

It's amazing how much better my caching experience has been since I started doing this.

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It is my experience that the adversity to any standard when it comes to hiding a Geocaching is unique to a small but very vocal minority in this forum. Those are the regulars who use words like entitlement and are always found defending, or even promoting, certain types of hides.

There are people who actually "promote" lameness? Can you link us to any of their lameness-promoting posts?

 

In other areas described regularly in this forum the first bar is set much lower, if it even exists. The mantra seems to be "any cache is a good cache." Any suggestion that a hider invest time and energy into finding a place where people is met with words like "entitlement" or "selfishness."

That’s amazing. There are cachers who are against the use of creativity and imagination, you say?

 

I can’t wait to see who these people are. How soon can you post a few links?

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It is my experience that the adversity to any standard when it comes to hiding a Geocaching is unique to a small but very vocal minority in this forum. Those are the regulars who use words like entitlement and are always found defending, or even promoting, certain types of hides.

There are people who actually "promote" lameness? Can you link us to any of their lameness-promoting posts?

 

In other areas described regularly in this forum the first bar is set much lower, if it even exists. The mantra seems to be "any cache is a good cache." Any suggestion that a hider invest time and energy into finding a place where people is met with words like "entitlement" or "selfishness."

That’s amazing. There are cachers who are against the use of creativity and imagination, you say?

 

I can’t wait to see who these people are. How soon can you post a few links?

Sigh.... sob.... I must confess...

 

TeamGeoBlast was speaking about me. You see, I often write scathingly about geocachers who exhibit a sense of entitlement, and who exhibit unbridled selfishness. And, I have written posts wherein I have disclosed that while I do not personally like or prefer lame urban micros, I do not hate them, nor do I feel that they should all be removed and destroyed. And... and... and...

 

...here is where it gets really tough for me to speak the truth, for to utter it brings me a lot of shame and self-loathing, but...

 

...here goes, for my heart tells me that I MUST confess in this public forum...

 

I was recently introduced to Satan at what I thought was gonna be a "business meeting", and Satan, the evil Prince of Darkness, offered me a great deal of money if I would promote lameness in geocaching, that is, promote placement of lame geocaches, and if I would work to stifle creativity and imagination in the sport of geocaching. In fact, since accepting Satan's business proposal, I have often encoded hidden subliminal messages in my posts to this forum and other geocaching forums, and the subliminal messages promote placement of lame geocaches and contain hypnotic suggestions that scorn the idea of employing creativity and imagination in creating and placing geocaches.

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

Now that I have told the truth, I admit that I "sold out" it out of greed; I wanted the money; I wanted it big time. However, the amount of shame, remorse, revulsion, self-hatred and self-loathing that I feel as a result of my loathsome actions is so great that the ONLY way that I can quench it is by regularly drinking, once every few hours, a large mug of radioactive water with a radioactivity level of over 189,000 pCi/L from my radon water dispenser, for the flood of radioactivity in my body from the radon and the radon progeny radionuclides erases, at least temporarily, the pain and self-loathing. I am abjectly sorry. I really am. :P:):laughing:

 

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

.

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<snip>

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

.

 

NOW look what you've done! Anyone who's dyslexic will now have an unaccountable urge to go place meal caches... thus leading to an explosion of caches that either A) use Chinese fast food containers, or :P are full of McDonald's toys!

 

BTW, catsnfish left a McDonald's toy in my car while we were caching the other day. Obviously, your insidious campaign is working on him!

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It is my experience that the adversity to any standard when it comes to hiding a Geocaching is unique to a small but very vocal minority in this forum. Those are the regulars who use words like entitlement and are always found defending, or even promoting, certain types of hides.

 

There are people who actually "promote" lameness? Can you link us to any of their lameness-promoting posts?

 

Small correction, lameness was your word. Promoting "certain types of caches" was mine. Big difference in what I was trying to say.

 

In other areas described regularly in this forum the first bar is set much lower, if it even exists. The mantra seems to be "any cache is a good cache." Any suggestion that a hider invest time and energy into finding a place where people is met with words like "entitlement" or "selfishness."

That’s amazing. There are cachers who are against the use of creativity and imagination, you say?

 

I can’t wait to see who these people are. How soon can you post a few links?

 

Another small correction. There are those that do not support the position that people should be encouraged to invest time and and energy into their cache hides. When something of this nature is suggested all Vinny breaks loose around here. Words like "caches that YOU like to find" are posted within minutes. I don't think this really requires research or links to be accepted as fact.

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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<snip>

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

You are feeling an irresistible urge to place lame geocaches. You will feel terrible if you create or place geoaches which employ creativity or imagination. You want to emplace only lame urban geoaches. You want to do exactly as I say. Go place lame caches today.

 

.

 

NOW look what you've done! Anyone who's dyslexic will now have an unaccountable urge to go place meal caches... thus leading to an explosion of caches that either A) use Chinese fast food containers, or :P are full of McDonald's toys!

 

BTW, catsnfish left a McDonald's toy in my car while we were caching the other day. Obviously, your insidious campaign is working on him!

 

Classic.

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I'm not sure that the objection here is to your idea of bars, or that the second bar should be high. I think it's about the definition of what a good cache is (i.e., where that second bar is), and attempts to control the game so that only good caches are placed.

 

I was just relating my experience how cachers that I know look at cache hides. I was trying to get across that the minimum bar is what I believe should be the expected standard. I do always hope for more but I do not expect it.

 

The problem is that there's either an outright suggestion of -- or undercurrent of suggesting -- that there could or should be some kind of system for controlling that quality, such as reviewers making sure that all caches are "good caches" (according to some set of definitions) and refusing to publish ones that aren't "good", or some other means of control, such as people being allowed to "trash out" caches that are "bad", for example.

 

Not even the slightest. I was just suggesting that developing a culture that encourages people move toward the second bar mentioned. In some areas, I think there is culture that focuses on hiding for numbers. Regulation of quality (whatever that is) is not something that is possible or something I am suggesting.

 

Ultimately, though, what's "good" for one cacher is "bad" for another, and vice versa, and I suspect that the majority of the caches that are considered "lame" by one cacher is perfectly fine (even preferred) by another. I think that this is the general point that what you call "the entitlement people" are trying to make.

 

Yeah, kind of but not really. The point I was trying to make is that it has become almost a taboo to suggest that cacher could improve their hides in this forum. It is the "any cache is a good cache" movement. When someone suggests that someone who hides 50 LPCs in a week might benefit the entire Geocaching Community by stepping back and evaluating what they are doing, that is an example where "entitlement" and "elitist" are used to describe them.

 

Having said that, though, I don't think that there would be much argument that some caches just plain suck by anyone's standards.

 

You said that, I didn't.

 

But what to do with it? Create a new system of standards that either places a lot of extra work on the reviewers? Encourage vigilante cache posses? Is the problem so tremendously huge that the system as we know it has to be changed so that cache quality is rules-mandated and then somehow enforced, assuming that the community could even agree on a set of standards in the first place?

 

I guess I am suggesting that everyone can do their own small part by encouraging a culture where folks hide caches for the reasons other than numbers.

 

Or is it a small enough problem that it could be solved by people ignoring crappy caches and/or crappy cache hiders or -- even better -- by an experienced or talented cacher taking the crappy cache hider under his/her wing (if the crappy cache hider is willing)?

 

Yes! This is the culture that I was suggesting be promoted. In the field. In this forum, probably not.

 

How big is the problem?

 

I think it is Geographical. In some areas that I've traveled to or read about in this forum, it's pretty big. In others, non-existent.

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...

 

Not even the slightest. I was just suggesting that developing a culture that encourages people move toward the second bar mentioned. In some areas, I think there is culture that focuses on hiding for numbers. Regulation of quality (whatever that is) is not something that is possible or something I am suggesting.

 

 

Snipped up to this point because I totally agree with you. I much prefer the idea of generating a culture of excellence (by being excellent, ourselves) rather than trying to mandate it. I like what you folks are doing in HI by recognizing each other for excellent caches. Someone had suggested an eBay-like rating system for caches -- I don't think that would be a good idea mostly because I've never personally felt very certain about the veracity of online polls -- but having a local group recognize excellent caches is a good idea.

 

(Just as long as the group doesn't become an insular club of old-timers. I'm not at all suggesting that this is what's going on with your group. It's just that insular clubs can be just as off-putting to newbies as nothing at all -- it's never helpful when people forget when this was all new to them too and snap at someone because they've seen it or done it a million times and have lost their patience.)

 

Ultimately, though, what's "good" for one cacher is "bad" for another, and vice versa, and I suspect that the majority of the caches that are considered "lame" by one cacher is perfectly fine (even preferred) by another. I think that this is the general point that what you call "the entitlement people" are trying to make.

 

Yeah, kind of but not really. The point I was trying to make is that it has become almost a taboo to suggest that cacher could improve their hides in this forum. It is the "any cache is a good cache" movement. When someone suggests that someone who hides 50 LPCs in a week might benefit the entire Geocaching Community by stepping back and evaluating what they are doing, that is an example where "entitlement" and "elitist" are used to describe them.

 

I guess I'm just not really seeing that. I see threads like the "Cool Cache Container", wherein people are sharing all kinds of tips and tricks and information about materials so as to make cool cache containers, and I find that very inspiring. Or threads in which people post photos taken from their favorite caches, etc. Or when people post "how do I do this?" threads and get all kinds of help.

 

Perhaps it depends on what you mean when you say "improve". Are we talking about someone who's leaving matchboxes in ziplock bags stuffed in between loose sheet-rock wall rocks? Or are we talking about a lamp-post cache?

 

The tricky part is understanding the mentality of the cache hider. Did they do it because they like LPCs? Did they have no idea about what other kinds of caches they can hide? Did they do it because they're in a rush to get their personal cache-hides number up to a bazillion? Are they too lazy to go find a local park? Or did they, in fact, think about what they were doing and do it for a reason? Did they intentionally create an easy cache for the numbers crowd? Is the problem that the motivation was insufficiently expressed on the cache page?

 

Do the "entitlement-bashers" really jump in on any criticism of a cache, or are they reacting to broad generalizations? Such as "there should be no lamp post caches, I hate them, they're for the lazy and inept, they're ruining the game". (I am not quoting anyone specific here, just gelling the sense I get from some of the longer "this cache[r] sucks" threads).

 

 

I guess I am suggesting that everyone can do their own small part by encouraging a culture where folks hide caches for the reasons other than numbers.

 

I completely agree. However, we have to remember that some people are in the game for the numbers -- it's what makes them happy. And that's okay, as long as new cachers are given the opportunity to discover what else the game is about (for people like you and I) and decide that they're still in it for the numbers (or not).

 

Yes! This is the culture that I was suggesting be promoted. In the field. In this forum, probably not.

 

I actually think that the Forum can be very useful in this regard. It has been for me, at least (and thank goodness; there are, like, three geocachers in my area). But it calls for people to focus on the stuff they like instead of getting in on a big ol' grumblefest about crappy this or crappy that.

 

I know that complaining is a lot of fun and the crap is a nice fertilizer for humor. I'm not advocating cutting it out altogether. But I think that a lot can be accomplished by encouraging and contributing to some of the threads I've cited. What about a Great Cache Award?* Every month, people get to nominate a favorite cache. They should post pictures, tell stories, or otherwise explain why it's such a cool cache. At the end of the month, we post a poll. Winner gets a little banner under their name for a month (in the Forum) and a graphic to put on the cache page with a link to the announcement of their winning.

 

*It could use a better name.

 

Make the nomination thread sticky, so that newbies have a better chance of seeing it (those that come to the Forum, of course).

 

How big is the problem?

 

I think it is Geographical. In some areas that I've traveled to or read about in this forum, it's pretty big. In others, non-existent.

 

Can you give an example? I'm not doubting you, but I'd like to check it out. You're talking about a large quantity of numbers-supporting caches saturating a geographic area, leaving no space for the "I'm in it for the experience" crowd, right?

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I think it is Geographical. In some areas that I've traveled to or read about in this forum, it's pretty big. In others, non-existent.

 

Can you give an example? I'm not doubting you, but I'd like to check it out. You're talking about a large quantity of numbers-supporting caches saturating a geographic area, leaving no space for the "I'm in it for the experience" crowd, right?

 

In post #18 in this thread Iowa is already mentioned. Dallas TX. Phoenix AZ. Grand Junction OR. Sacramento CA. are cities that I have cached in that have more than their share of pump up your numbers hides.

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I thought the thread subject was "do you ignore all of a certain hider's geocaches?" and not "can you dissect posts until you break the quotey thingy?"

 

But, re-reading the thread, I realized that I too was guilty of taking it off topic, by pointing out that the OP is himself a reformed graduate of the same school of fish that we're now spearing. I truly found that interesting and thought that others would benefit from the discussion. Unlike most of you, I know Rev Mike. He's a good guy.

 

So, in an effort to redeem myself, I will actually answer the Good Reverend's question.

 

For the longest time, I was proud of the fact that my "Ignore List" was empty. That fit with my geocaching philosophy. Pretty much any cache -- from a routine lamp post cache to a four-star death march up a mountain -- is a possible target, depending on my mood, my goals and my company.

 

There are now two ways for ALL of a geocacher's hides to land on my "Ignore List." The first is any hider who uses some or all of their cache pages to advance an agenda of criticizing other geocachers and their cache hides. The second is any hider who takes an action which calls into question the integrity of another geocacher, who I know personally to be a person of integrity.

 

To me, these are more important criteria for ignoring a cache than the cache's type, size, container or location. I have more than 100 caches on my ignore list now.

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Can I just say that this thread has been very illuminating for a newbie...

 

<------------- (seriously... like a couple of days)

 

I thought it was cool to find treasure in ammo boxes and spend time with friends and family. I didn't realize there was all this drama. Just a few observations from the new guy:

 

1. the first time I found a magnetic micro under a lamp skirt - way cool. after I found my 3rd one in my first 12 caches - lame. I stopped looking for micros. Now my son still thinks these are pretty nifty and likes finding micros in weird places. To each his own.

 

2. In my brief exposure to this activity, I am amazed at the generosity and care that people display for the "game". People tend to give more than they get and enjoy doing so. It's been a good experience for my son.

 

3. There are all kinds of things to become involved in... I could smack a little white ball around trying to put it in a hole. I could collect stamps, watch TV sitcoms, or knit potholders. Geocaching gets me outdoors, picking up trash, talking with my kids, and having a blast. All for the cost of gas and a few travel bugs. This may be the perfect activity... edgy but with a dash of global responsibility and a pinch of frivolity.

 

and finally, to all of you who are keeping this going with great hiding places, awesome experiences, nifty trinkets,

and genuine care, thank you. My son and I have found something that we both really love.

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That is the best forum post I've read in a looooooong time. :laughing:
That was a good post! :laughing:

That was good post for why you might want to go geocaching, but it was totally off-topic for the forums. The forums are for drama and angst. :P If I just want to have fun with friends, family, or even by myself I would stick to geocaching and never come here :) Except if I was a newbie who had questions that can be answered in the Getting Started section.

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Can I just say that this thread has been very illuminating for a newbie...

 

<------------- (seriously... like a couple of days)

 

I thought it was cool to find treasure in ammo boxes and spend time with friends and family. I didn't realize there was all this drama. Just a few observations from the new guy:

 

1. the first time I found a magnetic micro under a lamp skirt - way cool. after I found my 3rd one in my first 12 caches - lame. I stopped looking for micros. Now my son still thinks these are pretty nifty and likes finding micros in weird places. To each his own.

 

2. In my brief exposure to this activity, I am amazed at the generosity and care that people display for the "game". People tend to give more than they get and enjoy doing so. It's been a good experience for my son.

 

3. There are all kinds of things to become involved in... I could smack a little white ball around trying to put it in a hole. I could collect stamps, watch TV sitcoms, or knit potholders. Geocaching gets me outdoors, picking up trash, talking with my kids, and having a blast. All for the cost of gas and a few travel bugs. This may be the perfect activity... edgy but with a dash of global responsibility and a pinch of frivolity.

 

and finally, to all of you who are keeping this going with great hiding places, awesome experiences, nifty trinkets,

and genuine care, thank you. My son and I have found something that we both really love.

 

GREAT post. I hope you stick around these forums. I think your insight is quite valuable.

 

Try going to a geocaching event. You won't regret it. There is an upcoming event in your area that one of the all time great geocachers (25,000 finds) is hosting.

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I agree as well! Great post!

 

 

I think any cache is cool to a newbie. It took me several finds of each type before I figured out that LPCs and Guardrail hides aren't my favorites. Doesn't stop me from finding them on days I just want to be out there though, hopefully on my way to one in the woods somewhere though.

 

We have one very prolific hider around here that is all about those types of hides.

I've gone through 3 phases relating to his caches.

At first I thought they were challenging and cool (He has a nano on a sign that took me 6 hours to find my first week (I even had to write him and ask for a hint) because I had no idea what I was looking for).

Then I got into reading these boards and decided his caches are lame and I started to ignore them.

But then I finally settled on the, "To each their own" mentality and like I just said, I go out and find them sometimes when I'm in the area. And when I do it's not about adding to my smiley count, it's about being outside and having fun.

 

I think hiders are giving back to the game whatever they can. Some people have more time, creativity or money to put into their hides and that's cool...but I've come to realize that even the keyholder under the payphone with the purchase receipt as the log sheet is someones way of trying to give back to the Geocaching community.

 

I really don't think anyone sets out to place a lame hide...and lameness is completely subjective anyway.

Heck, I placed one (A 'small') in a city park that I even wrote on the cache page I was kinda embarrassed to have put out because it felt like a 'Throw Down' because it was one I happened to have in my bag while I was scoping out spots to place a multi. Well...that cache has gotten the longest finder write-up of any of my hides, generally gets pretty large logs that have all been complimentary...and I even got an email from one finder from another state who said they liked it so much they're going to copy it for a hide where they live!

 

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I think it is Geographical. In some areas that I've traveled to or read about in this forum, it's pretty big. In others, non-existent.

 

Can you give an example? I'm not doubting you, but I'd like to check it out. You're talking about a large quantity of numbers-supporting caches saturating a geographic area, leaving no space for the "I'm in it for the experience" crowd, right?

 

In post #18 in this thread Iowa is already mentioned. Dallas TX. Phoenix AZ. Grand Junction OR. Sacramento CA. are cities that I have cached in that have more than their share of pump up your numbers hides.

 

Thanks for the references; I'll go check those areas out. I'm particularly interested in Iowa as I'll be moving there after I get out of the Navy.

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I think hiders are giving back to the game whatever they can. Some people have more time, creativity or money to put into their hides and that's cool...but I've come to realize that even the keyholder under the payphone with the purchase receipt as the log sheet is someones way of trying to give back to the Geocaching community.

 

First of all, great post. I agree with most everything you say here except for this one. There are a ton of ways to give back to Geocaching. You can leave great swag, write descriptive helpful logs, bring an extra dish or a cool raffle prize to a pot luck geo-event, hold an event, do maintenance on a cache that is not yours, help a new cacher out with a question on a geo-board, you could send a welcome note to a new cacher when you notice a single digit find count... this list is long.

 

The difference between the infinite ways of giving back and putting out "any old cache" or in your example a key holder with a receipt on it is that there's bound to be disappointment from some, not all, of the seekers. This is a sure thing. If Geocaching has a focal point, it is the cache hide. What I don't understand why the core of this game is not given the importance and even reverence that it deserves. How did this culture develop where people are not encouraged to place the best caches they can or if they don't have time, money, or energy to place a well thought out cache to contribute in some other way.

 

If you are posting in this forum, you probably have some personal investment in Geocaching. It would be logical that most people want it to be the best it can be and flourish. For this to happen, the ambassadors of the game (us) need to spread the word about it to like minded individuals. So when you are describing this game to a friend how do you describe it as "a GPS treasure hunt where you seek innovative hides, interesting history, or great locations? Or do you say "It is a GPS game where you look for key holders and film canisters with scraps of paper in them?"

 

I really don't think anyone sets out to place a lame hide...and lameness is completely subjective anyway.

 

I suppose the first part of this statement is actually the answer to my age old question. However, I don't agree that everything is completely subjective. An appropriate container, good coordinates, a cache page that gives you important information, meeting basic GC.com guidelines etc. are not subjective.

 

I wish that the intent of the placement was promoted as more important. If the intent is just to place something to hide for other to gain a quick find then it should be clearly described as such. However, I doubt that this game would be something that few of us would participate in if this was openly encouraged in this forum and by Geocaching Communities.

 

Consider the long term benefits to the game, it's reputation, and it's players if we developed a culture where everyone is encouraged to ask questions like. "Would I want to be brought here?" "What is the experience I want others to have?" Have I described this adequately on the cache page?"

Edited by Team GeoBlast
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