The geocoin hoard-resell phenomena

[+Zarya.]

What got me to risk getting on the soapbox was what happened with the Medusa geocoin. I bought the gold one, while no silvers were on the page yet. I set my computer on the presale page and went out to survey a CITO site. Hours later I come back, and all the silvers were already sold out! So, I go "ho-hum, I'll save that $10 for the next good coin that comes along." 'Dealing' with such occurrences is no big deal.

 

But what bothers me is - no doubt they are popular, but - how do 100 coins sell out within just afew hours? I smell foul play.

 

I think geocoin vendors should place limits on the amount that one can checkout with for any given address.

Anything more than 4 and it's almost obvious/guaranteed that a buyer intends to stash them to sell/trade for a profit sometime later.

 

For example, take Pororoca; a beautiful coin, and the situation wasn't so bad - it was on sale for several days, enough for honest collectors under various circumstances to obtain - then the moment it sold out, they started popping up all over eBay for double the price plus shipping!

 

"NEW RARE LE HTF SOLDOUT UNACT TKBL OMG" - and not just that single coin, the moment it sells, bingo, a re-list! And a re-list! And another! A whole list of readily available, recently sold out, limited edition coins! Some blatantly lying even - of course they-shall-not-be-named - so, caveat emptor!

 

Since when was selling the coins a job given to these self-professed enthusiasts? Can I call them parasites? Creating misfortune for others, then thriving on it - what a smooth con job! The coin-maker offers many chances, so, siphon many chances, then offer each chance at a higher price to the willing desperate, masquerading as one who helps those who missed it get a nice coin. Well, others wouldn't miss it in the first place if the parasite did not come sucking, of course! Renegade groups seizing food-aid to redistribute to those willing to submit to their price comes to mind. It's such an easy profit, it's almost tempting for me to join the cartel of coin-hoarding resellers myself!

 

 

I am wondering if I am the only one with such sentiments.

If I am, do fire away - a rant always expects flak. Being on a soapbox does mean one is in pelting exposure to far more than otherwise.

But if I am not - I have little doubt that there are those out there who have missed coin sales before, only to find the same coin popping up like mushrooms all over other sites soon after - how do you think one can deal with this, besides ignoring it and going with the flow?

I am also curious for the perspective of coin designers; How do you feel when this happens to the coins you made? Do you think it's a good thing or bad thing?

[+Shilo]

But what bothers me is - no doubt they are popular, but - how do 100 coins sell out within just a few hours? I smell foul play.

 

Ahh young Danielson

 

You must be new at this. In late 2006 when I started buying coins it wasn't unheard of 500-1000 coins being sold in minutes...yes I said MINUTES!!!

So 100 coins in a few hours isn't foul play at all. In today's economy coins aren't even minted in 500's much anymore let alone a 1000.

You just have to be quick and have your ears wide open if you want a certain coin that you think is going to be popular.

[+Degai]

What? There was a silver Medusa? I never even saw it! It wasn't even listed by the time I got to the presale page!

 

Oh, and Shilo is so right! I remember the same thing happening and that was in the days when I could hardly use a computer, so I missed out on a lot of stuff!

[+RifleMan81]

My first experience like this was with the Earth Turtle V1. I stayed home from work that day b/c of all the buzz about them. I refreshed the page every minute to see when they were available to add to the cart. Luckily, I got my order in, but they did sell out fast. I don't know the official time, but it had to be within 10 or 15 minutes. I don't think there was any foul play, just a lot of people that wanted a limited number of coins.

 

Some sellers do limit the number of coins that will be sold and shipped to the same address. I do like that way of doing it to give enough people a shot at a particular coin. And yes, a lot of coins are bought in bulk and end up on ebay one a time and relisted several times. I do not agree with it, but it does happen. It's up to the seller to take appropriate steps to avoid situations like that.

 

Just subscribe to the "Geocoin Discussions" forum. You'll get an email anytime a new thread is started. Usually, the sale start date and time are given for coins that are expected to sell out fast.

 

Welcome to the forum and geocaching. Just remember to have fun with it. It's a hobby.

[+MustangJoni]

Last time a coin was in big demand, I had to work. A friend of mine was able to buy the two I wanted and she bought the ones she wanted and then bought ones for another unfortunate soul who had to work.

 

Just because somebody buys 10 coins doesn't mean they aren't an "honest" collector.

[+fairyhoney]

Well, The Antique Copper ones are there now.

[+tsunrisebey]

I've always wanted to use this icon

[+fairyhoney]

I've always wanted to use this icon

 

[+tsunrisebey]

Can't resist gotta answer Oh how I wish I could just duct tape my fingers together at times.....

 

Couple things to consider;

 

* Vendors sell coins and the idea is to sell out. Asking vendors to limit coins is putting them in a tough position because no vendor is guaranteed a sell-out. I think people lose sight of the fact that on an initial minting, you have to sell about 75% (give or take) of the coins minted in order to make the money back you spent to get them minted. Factors such as pricing and number minted play a part in this (not black and white). If you were a merchandiser selling products (be honest and think about it) would you tell customers, sorry, I'm only going to sell you 4 of product Acme? or would you be praying that you could sell what you had in stock? Keep in mind that there are plenty of other costs associated with being a vendor other than the coin price itself and covering that cost. (Hence so many smaller vendors going down the tubes-recently too)

 

* People buy coins for friends, relatives, etc. Not everyone goes straight to ebay with their extras. Not everyone can afford to buy so they wait for others to buy the extras so they can trade for them. The biggest complaint I get from people is 'why do you let the ebayers buy all your coins?' I think people would be very surprised at the low percentage of people who actually buy coins specifically for ebay. Are ebayers not entitled to help fund their coin buying habits anyway they choose? I'm not arguing for or against ebay. Entitlement seems to be an issue, everyone thinks they should get a coin and when they don't they get upset. I can't tell you how many times I have missed out on coins because of my slow connection. Suck it up! Look at it as an opportunity to try and trade for it, that's part of the fun of coins, striving to get that elusive coin. There's an excitement trying to get something you missed out on.

 

* So many people with so many suggestions on how vendors should sell their coins. If I had a nickel..... Listen, it's time people tried to keep an open mind and imagine what it's like to be a vendor. You pay money to keep up a store, you spend hours working with the mint, you invest your own money in getting coins minted (ok, some of us do), you prepare for days for a sale, you pray your coin does well so you can pay yourself back, you spend time shipping and packing and going to the post office... I'm not even touching the tip of the iceberg here. This isn't cheap ain't it ain't easy and if you think it is, by all means I say to those with all the answers; give 'er a go. You come up with a winning design, buy a webstore, spend hours and lots of money on everything selling coins entails and then tell me how it worked? Oh yeah, make sure you limit sales too

 

* What I'm trying to tell you is that there isn't a perfect system and if you can find one that works for everyone involved, by all means, I am the first in line to hear what 'you' have to say. Talk to any vendor and learn how frustrating this whole thing is at times. You bust your hiney for people and there's always someone mad at ya.

 

* Oh yeah.... selling 100 coins in a couple hours isn't foul play if it's a decent design.

 

ok, I feel much better now and I actually held back

Edited November 8, 2008 by tsunrisebey

[+DJ.J.ROCK]

WOW !!! these forums sure did fire up over the last 24 hrs!!!

[+ECplus3]

Tsun, you are absolutely right! I designed my own coin, but went through a vendor to work with the mint. I then decided to develop my own webstore (I'm a geek; I like programming), so that was a huge chunk of work I heaped on my shoulders.

 

I did limit sales of the XLE version of my coin, and it still sold out, but there were only 35 available. The other versions didn't come close to selling out. Frankly, I would welcome someone to come along and buy a fistful of them -- even if they just turned around and sold them on eBay. I am so far from breaking even it's not funny. I basically have 150 'mission' coins left of the 300 I had minted.

 

Funny thing is, if I had the money I would do it again!

[+AtlantaGal]

I remember the days when coin runs of 500+ and 1000+ were gone in minutes. So for 100 coins to last a few hours is actually REALLY decent, lol. There were 17 AS version when I saw the newsletter. I wasn't about to buy 1 only to have to pay shipping again. So I passed on them.

 

And hoards of coins... how is buying 2 of one version and 1 of another hoarding coins?

[+MustangJoni]

 

Since when was selling the coins a job given to these self-professed enthusiasts? Can I call them parasites? Creating misfortune for others, then thriving on it - what a smooth con job! The coin-maker offers many chances, so, siphon many chances, then offer each chance at a higher price to the willing desperate, masquerading as one who helps those who missed it get a nice coin. Well, others wouldn't miss it in the first place if the parasite did not come sucking, of course! Renegade groups seizing food-aid to redistribute to those willing to submit to their price comes to mind. It's such an easy profit, it's almost tempting for me to join the cartel of coin-hoarding resellers myself!

 

 

I have to comment on this. The people who sell coins on ebay bought their coins fair and square. Coins are not charity. They are generally sold on a first come, first serve basis. Vendors invest a lot of money on each coin edition. Their job is to sell them, not to make sure that everybody who wants one has one. Believe me, if you really want the coin, there will be some available in the trading thread in a few days.

 

If you really think that a coin being sold out is "creating misfortune", then you must really live a charmed life. In the words of a very smart lady "It is a coin, not a kidney!"

[Theotokos]

While I would love to be one of the lucky ones that get in on those 15 minute sellout sessions that Tsun usually has, I have no right to expect to get any. I will try (so far unsuccessfully) but it isn't the vendor that needs to worry about my network speed, typing skills, sleeping habits..what ever.

 

The vendor has a product to sell and limiting the number a person can sell to a customer is really none of our business. They have a lot invested and have a right to get back their costs as quickly as possible....and trust me, there isn't a huge profit margin for them here.

 

If you see a coin you like, don't wait on it and if you do wait, don't expect it to be there later. If you miss out on a coin, try posting in the trade thread before going to ebay. And for those people that buy just to sell on ebay, they have that right as well...even if some folks may not trust the ebay sellers, I have found some wonderful coins out there. If a coin goes too high for your liking, just don't bid on it. None of us has any 'rights' to own any one coin.

[+The Moop Along]

None of us has any 'rights' to own any one coin.

 

A truer word hath not been spoke.

[+LadyBee4T]

Last time a coin was in big demand, I had to work. A friend of mine was able to buy the two I wanted and she bought the ones she wanted and then bought ones for another unfortunate soul who had to work.

 

Just because somebody buys 10 coins doesn't mean they aren't an "honest" collector.

 

Yep I am in complete agreement here. I understand the limiting of numbers and i do sell some coins on ebay. However, I also have bought for as many as five people. If the numbers had been limited the others would have been out of luck as they were at work, on vacation etc. I highly resent being referred to as a parasite.

 

As was stated above in the "old" days they used to sell out within minutes or selling out in hour actually works in the coiners favor.

[avroair]

None of us has any 'rights' to own any one coin.

 

A truer word hath not been spoke.

 

I disagree! The medusa is my coin, so I own it. I will give a little imput here. Oakcoins (the vendor I worked with on the coin) now limits their sales to 250 maximum on a coin... the reasons for this as Tsun pointed out is that you have to sell 75% of the stock to then start turning a decent profit.

 

So from their standpoint, they made 100 medusas, as the artist I got 5 (down to 95), they have to withhold a certain amount for lost orders or mistakes etc. (say 10 are pulled) that leaves 85 coins to sell up front. Out of these there needs to be 75 sold to cover all the costs associated with the coin. Leaving a slim margin of 10 coins to eek out a profit (at $9.97 that's $100 if they all sell out)...

 

So that's the best case scenario... say you make 100 coins, only 50 sell, you are now stuck with 45 coins (you still have to pay that artist)... AND you are in the hold for the cost of 45 coins. Some people can cover that on one coin... $450 revenue can be made back, but when you times that by 20 or 40 coins in a webstore like some vendors... that's $9000-$18000...

 

The Medusa coins sold well, I liked the design and begged them to up the mint run to 300 coins. (100 of each, with the idea that the most popular by vote (the copper) could be reminted to fill the orders.

 

On the other foot, yes there are people who buy expressly to resell on ebay. But I am not sure how you can limit coins sales to 4 coins per person when it is very difficult to sell a coin out in the current economic market.

 

As designer of the coin, I got 5 of each of the Medusa coins as payment, if that's hoarding (and yes they are up on ebay) then I guess I don't really have an excuse. I feel I have made some contributions to the community with some nice designs so I don't feel that selling them on ebay to make some money from them is all that bad.

[+DaFunkyFrogs]

Coin parasites???

 

Holy carp! Just when I thought I had a handle on all the creepy crawlies involved with caching--the spiders, snakes, ticks, skunks, rabid dogs etc.--Now I gotta watch for the coin parasites. And I don't even know what they look like! Where are they? Under rocks? in trees? under lamp post skirts?

 

 

I gotta say this: I'm actually looking forward to seeing our first coin on ebay. Sound strange? Not at all. It would mean people thought enough of our coin to buy up a few for 'redistribution'.

[+Blue Devil PA]

Coin parasites???

 

Sounds like a great idea for a coin!

 

something along the lines of a tick/vampire/chupacabra theme....wonder how long it would take to hit ebay?

 

Personally, I have reached a level of disassociation (thankfully) in regards to collecting and buying coins. Now if I miss one, oh well! My last "big" purchase was the 3 puzzle coin series Da Vinci...yes I paid a lot, but I paid directly to the coin's creater and I think he deserves to be rewarded for his creativity, talent and time.

All said and done, I now make a budget and keep to it. Miss/can't afford a coin, let it go and try for the next one.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

I'll enter the room using my "old timer" walking stick.

 

Coins are coins. Some are popular and sell out - in the old days they ALL sold-out - quickly.

 

It seems lately that some coins sell more slowly, but eventually they all sell. Trying to limit the speed at which they sell in order to be "fair" is ridiculous. If someone wants to buy the entire run of coin in one transaction - let them.

 

After all... I bet more coins will be coming.

 

It is the scarcity, the percieved scarctity, and the percived value that leads to all the ills of the geocoin world - the theives, the hoarders, the profiteers. just enjoy those you are able to get and let go of the ones you don't.

 

The best revenge is to not play the game. Don't buy coins for prices you don't want to pay. That might be $10 on a simple coin, $25 on a complex coin, or even $1000 on a Moun10Bike 1st edition (which you shouldn't be buying at all!

 

The point is: don't feel you "need" any coin. You really, really don't.

 

I've long been a fan of a "keep making them as long as people want them" for commercial coins. So it's really only the limited editions that drive prices upwards.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

opps... I should sell my coins and take spelling lessons.

 

Anyhow - quick thought. Parasites require a "host". Don't buy eBay coins that you don't want and prices will fall. I've sold coins on eBay for $7 and for $200+. I never feel I am being a "parasite". I'm offering something I don't want for something I do - money to buy more coins.

 

If I had to live off my "profits" - I wouldn't be searchng the woods for ammo cans - I'd be LIVING in the woods and looking for food!

[+TropicalParadise]

I think the OP has a point. It could be limited. However the limit should be something like.... greater than 50% of the amount made. Otherwise, it's just life.

[+Wandering Vikings]

As a vendor I have had two trains of thought on this topic...

First- we don't list any of our coins on E-bay until all of the customers orders have shipped, so for most of our coins those who are geographically close have them in hand in a day or two and they very often pop up on Ebay from someone else before we get a chance to list them. The first couple times our coins went for an obscene amount on Ebay it was a little disheartening- the secondary seller on one coin made more profit on that one sale than we had in the entire run so far!

But then I quit whining, and started to be grateful that they had purchased coins in the first place! That led me to my second thought and current frame of mind-

They are my customers. They like my coins enough to buy them. They thought my coins had enough potential that someone else would buy some. If they want to try and attract new customers for my designs then more power to them!

We have never had one person purchase an *excessive* amount of coins. Most of the ones that pop up on Ebay are from people who ordered only two sets. (Comparing locations anyway) and as the previous posters commented if someone wants to purchase the product I am offering, I am certainly not going to tell them no!

 

Now to play Devil's Advocate- this is why we do pre-sales. Pre-selling allows us to accurately gauge the number of standard editions to order so anyone trying to get a SE can. The LE and AE quantities are set ahead of time and usually sell out during pre-sales, but the SE are minted based off of the coin demand.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Sofi and Holmbiorn

[gridlox]

Why would a vendor even consider quantity limits?

 

Sure, most of the ones around here cater to the cacher market, but they are there to make money.

Pure and simple!!

 

That would be like asking Sony to have quantity limits of PS3 Consoles they sell to major chain stores in major cities because Joe's Store in Podunk, Ga "might" want to purchase 2-3 to sell to their customers.

 

First one with the cash is going to get the products, reguardless of how many folks are sitting around "considering" buying some.

 

Supply and Demand!! You Snooze, You Lose!!

 

I can definately feel for you when not getting a coin because it sold out before you could buy it. Been there done that! But move on. Buy something else that you think is nice. Grab a couple extra and try to barter a trade for the one you missed in the Trade post. Enjoy the fact that you have the expendable $$ to enjoy our little coin hobby.

There are too many real problems in today's world to be fretting over created ones.

 

Like a few of the other's that posted above, I can remember the frenzied selling of 500 coins in mere "minutes" when coins first started gettting popular a few years ago.

I can remember when a coin's sale time and site would be listed on the forums here. And it would be like a party in here for an hour before they went on sale. Then, after the sale started, (and sometimes ended, a few minutes later) everyone coming back and bragging about "I got a Silver one" "I Got a Gold one" "I got a rock".

 

How many times have you sat at your computer hitting the F5 button on a sale page to get a coveted coin?

I can remember doing it quite a few times when I first started buying coins.

What was it? I think it was the Georgia Peach coins that sold out 500 in under 2 minutes!!

F5-F5-F5-F5 And I still missed them. I finally got one about a year later in a good trade.

 

I miss those days!

That's when the forums were FUN!!

 

D-man

Edited November 10, 2008 by gridlox