Logging a PM cache

[+Tequila]

I wonder how the geocachers feel when they "cheat". and it is cheating because you are not paying your PM dues.....

 

4. It's the inability to actually read a PMO cache page that's part of what you actually pay for.

 

Where does it specifically say the you only pay for the ability to "read" the cache page?

 

I would suggest that the reason it is called a members only cache is that the intent was for only members to be able to read the cache, find the cache and log the cache. The fact that a backdoor existed for logging, and it was ignored by GS (till now), was secondary. In fact, with the right piece of software non-members could also read it if they chose to do so.

 

Having said that, I have no problem in a non-member logging a find on my PM cache. In fact, if need be, I will make it a non-PM for 15 minutes to allow them to log it. Conversely, if they chose to do so, I have no problem with a cache owner deleting non-PM logs.

 

While you may be correct that PM's are not to pay for the sport, I suspect that if all PM's canceled their memberships, GS would have a tough time. So don't underestimate the benefit of PM's to non-PM's. And on that subject, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would not chose to be a PM. The cost is ridiculously low. Most people spend more on gasoline for a single caching trip than an annual PM costs.

 

OK. That should fire up the flame throwers.

[Dinoprophet]

If we're going to get technical, the list of benefits doesn't say anything at all about premium caches. And the check box on the listing form says; "Check if you only want Premium and Charter Members to view this cache."

Edited November 26, 2008 by Dinoprophet

[+sbell111]

I wonder how the geocachers feel when they "cheat". and it is cheating because you are not paying your PM dues.....

4. It's the inability to actually read a PMO cache page that's part of what you actually pay for.

Where does it specifically say the you only pay for the ability to "read" the cache page?

On the "Report a New Cache" page.

I would suggest that the reason it is called a members only cache is that the intent was for only members to be able to read the cache, find the cache and log the cache.

I would suggest that we call them that because we are naturally lazy and strive to boil things down to the very simplest way to identify them.

The fact that a backdoor existed for logging, and it was ignored by GS (till now), was secondary.

TPTB did not ignore the fact that MOCs could be logged by non-PMs. In fact, they specifically stated that they had no issue with this practice.

In fact, with the right piece of software non-members could also read it if they chose to do so.

Just because one thing isn't as it was planned, doesn't mean that all things are broken.

Having said that, I have no problem in a non-member logging a find on my PM cache. In fact, if need be, I will make it a non-PM for 15 minutes to allow them to log it. Conversely, if they chose to do so, I have no problem with a cache owner deleting non-PM logs.

 

While you may be correct that PM's are not to pay for the sport, I suspect that if all PM's canceled their memberships, GS would have a tough time. So don't underestimate the benefit of PM's to non-PM's. And on that subject, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would not chose to be a PM. The cost is ridiculously low. Most people spend more on gasoline for a single caching trip than an annual PM costs.

I'm thinking that you haven't read this thread closely if you can't think of scenarios where a geocacher may not become a PM. For instance, consider the geocaching family; father, mother, two or three kids, and a dog. Surely, this family shouldn't be expected to byu PMs for every member of the family simply to allow the kids (and dog) to log the MCO.

[+tozainamboku]

If we're going to get technical, the list of benefits doesn't say anything at all about premium caches. And the check box on the listing form says; "Check if you only want Premium and Charter Members to view this cache."

But this page does talk about Subscriber-Only Caches as a premium membership feature

 

Subscriber-Only Caches

Some caches are only available to premium members. This has been a request of many geocachers who want to put more energy into designing a cache for dedicated geocachers. As the cache owner, you can make any of your caches "subscriber only," so folks will need a subscription to seek it out. (Note: member only caches may not be any better than public geocaches. Each cache is managed by their cache owner.)

 

Here's my understanding of why there was a backdoor. There have been many request for a family membership. A family or any other group that does most of their caching together but where each individual has their own ID for logging finds, does not need to have a premium account for everyone in th group. People have asked for a special family membership - the primary account would have the same features as a premium member. The remaining accounts would have limited premium features - perhaps only the ability to see and log PMO caches and have permission for the primary account to share PQs with the secondary account with being in violation of the waypoint download agreement. Rather than implement a family/group membership functionality, Jeremy has suggested that families and groups use the back door for logging PMO caches found by non-premium members of such a group. If this backdoor has now been closed, Groundspeak needs to provide a family membership option. Perhaps for an addition $5/year ($2/3 months) a premium member can designate up to four more accounts that can log PMO caches and can share PQs.

 

Off-Topic - the most important premium member feature is not mentioned in either of the lists of features

[jholly]

I wonder how the geocachers feel when they "cheat". and it is cheating because you are not paying your PM dues.....These "dues" provide much of the "bells and whistles" that we enjoy. The cheaters are playing the game that others support with their membership $. I knew there was a method to circumvent the PM, so, when I'm aware of this cheating, I delete their log entry on my "PM only" caches...What part of "only" don't they understand...Why would geocaching condone cheating? Stay safe and stick to the rules....

 

One valid reason that was pointed out is a family that each member has an account, but only one has the PM. When they cache together they want to log. So I guess your cheating the family out of their fun when you delete the three logs and leave the one. I see no reason for each member of a family to have an account. An yes I have a PM and no, my caches are not PMOC.

 

Jim

[+trainlove]

Off-Topic - the most important premium member feature is not mentioned in either of the lists of features

What's so special about the Off Topic forum? I can see and read every topic there. I can reply to any there if I wish, but I have never wished to do so since I see that whole thing as being drivel. I don't even waste 5 minutes a day in there.

 

Now if Jeremy 'invented' the backdoor because of 'family memberships' then I guess he did it 8 years before family memberships were asked for, precience there I'd say.

If it were supposed to be used for that, then there would be wording on how to log one, perhaps on the very Member Only cache page where a non member only sees:

An Error Has Occurred 
cache       Hidden: N/A   
Size:      Difficulty: N/A      Terrain: N/A (1 is easiest, 5 is hardest) 



You need to log in and be a premium member in order to view subscriber-only caches. Login if you are a premium member, or visit the premium member page to find out how to upgrade your account to a premium member.

or

An Error Has Occurred 
cache       Hidden: N/A   
Size:      Difficulty: N/A      Terrain: N/A (1 is easiest, 5 is hardest) 



Sorry, the owner of this listing has made it viewable to subscribers only. Visit the premium member page to find out how to upgrade your account to a premium member.

 

But you know, at this particular library when trying to log a PMO cache I get a script error. I wonder if that's what's causing the whole problem, since TPTB are currently silent about the whole topic. I can't copy the text of the message so I'll put it below by hand.

An error has occurred in the script on this page.
Line: 457
Char: 12
Error: Syntax error
Code: 0
URL: [url="http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=.."]http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=..[/url].

Do you want to continue running scripts on this page?
[[u]Y[/u]es]   [[u]N[/u]o]

[+gollie]

"I'm thinking that you haven't read this thread closely if you can't think of scenarios where a geocacher may not become a PM. For instance, consider the geocaching family; father, mother, two or three kids, and a dog. Surely, this family shouldn't be expected to byu PMs for every member of the family simply to allow the kids (and dog) to log the MCO."[/quote]

--------------------------------------------

Family or team logging seems to be fairly well supported in the minds of most geocachers...

The kids (and dog) CAN log the find in the case of a MOC: All together under the one PM account. One PM account,= one find=one log for the team tally.

 

I've always imagined this to be a single entry or log on the cache page, initiated when the PM member of record posts a log. This log represents all team or family members. The kiddies can sit at the keyboard and type a word or two in the log, or select a 'smilie'. If an adult member of the family does not want to be restricted to logging all together under the single team log, they should get a PM account.

 

It gets messy in my opinion when individuals who are not PM's want to log under their own tag name in addition to a log under the team/family entry. Why not keep it simple and just log all together? Oh, I know why; they wanna increase their find count. I say count team finds as team finds, if the team has one PM member they all get to log a PM cache--in one PM log. If individuals are ambitious for high find counts, they can join as a PM to add those to their quiver. If youngsters are too young to buy a PM membership on their own, they'll have something to look forward to when they're older.

[+gollie]

One valid reason that was pointed out is a family that each member has an account, but only one has the PM. When they cache together they want to log. So I guess your cheating the family out of their fun when you delete the three logs and leave the one. I see no reason for each member of a family to have an account. An yes I have a PM and no, my caches are not PMOC.

 

Jim

 

Are they 'cheated out of their fun'? They enjoyed the hunt at least, for a 'bonus' cache. Are we teaching our children to be unable to understand delayed gratification?

Anyway, let them log. Have them type their own message into the one PM cache log.

[+TEAM HARTSOCK]

Why have a PMO cache? is there something special about a altoids tin? is there something special about a ammo can in the mountians? is there something special left as a trade item?, oh wait those are the exception because anything worth trading is taken.. See if PMO caches were so special and unique they when found would not be like all the rest....it is a cancer that those who think PMO caches will not be muggled ect. can exercise their Hugo upon..

 

Maybe a separate thread would be illuminating about "why do you place premium caches?" I think I could learn from this myself--admittedly I'm a skeptic about it. Because for me I think the contents of a cache aren't needing that much defending, Are PM's really placing that much better contents in their caches? I put cool stuff in my ordinary caches and trust I that it will be okay.

 

But for this thread I still think that logging PM's 'for free' is the issue. (I don't think this about team or couples logging as one-- but even for that I don't think we should have to do backdoor url hack to log this way.)

 

What does it matter why anyone places premium caches? They paid the dues to get the option, they are providing the cash to run the site for all the non-paying members, why bawl around about someone placing PM caches? I joined the site right away because I found this fun and exciting and I wanted to support it, so alot of that doesn't apply to me, but there are many other sites I take advantage of the "free stuff" and don't join, but I don't bellyache about the features that members get. If it bothered me that much I would join and get the features. Really at $30 a year, this site is very cheap.

 

Wow, I really hope this this can be "unfixed". My husband,children and I all have separate accounts. I have the only premium membership in the family ( cannot afford 4) and we have always used the backdoor method to log the PM caches we found for the rest of the family. I have never had a cache owner complain about us doing it because we cache together. Now, after a weekend of caching together, there are caches that they can't log. Please fix this.

 

Maybe this has been already said in the past debates and discussions about this issue, but what about a "family membership" that is say $45 and allows all members of a household to benefit from PM features. Of course there will be people that try to cheat that and allow other people in their "family" but maybe there is a way to accomadate people in this situation.

 

I wonder how the geocachers feel when they "cheat". and it is cheating because you are not paying your PM dues.....These "dues" provide much of the "bells and whistles" that we enjoy. The cheaters are playing the game that others support with their membership $. I knew there was a method to circumvent the PM, so, when I'm aware of this cheating, I delete their log entry on my "PM only" caches...What part of "only" don't they understand...Why would geocaching condone cheating? Stay safe and stick to the rules....

 

Good point with the supporting the site issue. I think we could get too anal with some of this and both sides of the issue should remember this is a hobby and a game; something that is meant to be fun.

[+TEAM HARTSOCK]

 

OK. That should fire up the flame throwers.

 

[OpinioNate]

I did beleive that this was a feature blessed by Jeremy. But apparently it doesn't work anymore.

 

This fix made it's way to a developer's plate without being fully vetted. In fact, it could be argued that it is indeed broken, but in this case it was broken in a good way, as Jeremy's comment in the past has affirmed.

 

We are reversing the change so family's can once again log the same cache. We may be able to slip in the hotfix today, but it could be early next week. I'm very sorry for anyone who was upset by this change.

 

Edit: It will have to be Monday or Tuesday. We're just not comfortable releasing new code before a holiday weekend. Just remember which PMOC's you find and log them next week. Thanks.

Edited November 26, 2008 by OpinioNate

[Dinoprophet]

Thanks, Nate.

 

One thing I do agree with gollie on here: why not formalize the ability of non-PMs to log PMO caches? Everything would be as it is now, except non-PMs would still get the "Log your visit" link in the corner on a PMO page, just like with any other cache.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Dinoprophet

[+tozainamboku]

Why not keep it simple and just log all together? Oh, I know why; they wanna increase their find count. I say count team finds as team finds, if the team has one PM member they all get to log a PM cache--in one PM log. If individuals are ambitious for high find counts, they can join as a PM to add those to their quiver.

I'm not particularly bothered by people who keep a team account and an individual account and log finds they made with the team in both places. I certainly don't see this as cheating or increasing one's find count. The team number show the accurately what was found by the team and each individual gets credit for that cache as well. Many families do not have family team accounts - or they started with a family team account and then split into individual accounts. One of the reasons is that they feel it was wrong for the team to claim a find if dad found one cache while mom and the kids were someplace else finding a different cache. These families feel that keeping an individual account for each person lets them have more accurate statistics. Now if they find a PMOC, only the premium member can get credit and the rest of the team is denied the credit for the cache. It may be easy enough for an adult to grasp that PMOC can only be logged by a premium member but it may seem unfair to the kids who like to have their own logs and own record of the caches they found. (I'd bet many adults also want to have a record of every cache they found).

 

Whether the backdoor was intentional or not, Jeremy has stated in the past that he was going to leave it open for just this reason. If he changed his mind, it would be nice if he would state so and give the reasoning. Thank OpinioNate for the explanation that the policy has not changed.

Edited November 26, 2008 by tozainamboku

[Dinoprophet]

It gets messy in my opinion when individuals who are not PM's want to log under their own tag name in addition to a log under the team/family entry. Why not keep it simple and just log all together? Oh, I know why; they wanna increase their find count. I say count team finds as team finds, if the team has one PM member they all get to log a PM cache--in one PM log. If individuals are ambitious for high find counts, they can join as a PM to add those to their quiver. If youngsters are too young to buy a PM membership on their own, they'll have something to look forward to when they're older.

Like going through the thousands of family finds and retroactively logging them with their new account? Wanting an accurate accounting of your caching history is not the same as wanting to boost your numbers.

 

But it's a pointless argument: the site knows about it and allows it. They allow it to the point that it was accidentally "fixed" and they're putting it back now.

[+sbell111]

"I'm thinking that you haven't read this thread closely if you can't think of scenarios where a geocacher may not become a PM. For instance, consider the geocaching family; father, mother, two or three kids, and a dog. Surely, this family shouldn't be expected to byu PMs for every member of the family simply to allow the kids (and dog) to log the MCO."

Family or team logging seems to be fairly well supported in the minds of most geocachers...

The kids (and dog) CAN log the find in the case of a MOC: All together under the one PM account. One PM account,= one find=one log for the team tally.

 

I've always imagined this to be a single entry or log on the cache page, initiated when the PM member of record posts a log. This log represents all team or family members. The kiddies can sit at the keyboard and type a word or two in the log, or select a 'smilie'. If an adult member of the family does not want to be restricted to logging all together under the single team log, they should get a PM account.

 

It gets messy in my opinion when individuals who are not PM's want to log under their own tag name in addition to a log under the team/family entry. Why not keep it simple and just log all together? Oh, I know why; they wanna increase their find count. I say count team finds as team finds, if the team has one PM member they all get to log a PM cache--in one PM log. If individuals are ambitious for high find counts, they can join as a PM to add those to their quiver. If youngsters are too young to buy a PM membership on their own, they'll have something to look forward to when they're older.

The problem with your plan is that it assumes that these groups always cache together. The reality of the situation is that this is often not the case. You may be out geocaching with your entire family one day and just your spouse the next. On another day, your spouse may cache without you or you without her. Recording your finds under a team account makes no sense in these scenarios. Edited November 26, 2008 by sbell111

[+gollie]

I wonder how the geocachers feel when they "cheat". and it is cheating because you are not paying your PM dues.....These "dues" provide much of the "bells and whistles" that we enjoy. The cheaters are playing the game that others support with their membership $. I knew there was a method to circumvent the PM, so, when I'm aware of this cheating, I delete their log entry on my "PM only" caches...What part of "only" don't they understand...Why would geocaching condone cheating? Stay safe and stick to the rules....

--------------------------------------

I agree with you Wild Thing, as I've said, I'd be embarassed to log a PM cache if I was only a basic member. It's not an earth-shaking infraction, but it's odd to have Groundspeak offer this workaround as a feature, yet not have it spelled out as a clear offering. It's only known in the background. Well-meaning, literate new PM's think it consists of one thing, and "old-hands" know otherwise, i.e, why pay for what you can just take....

 

I note that today, Nov 26, the site moderator has said they will fix the workaround and get it back in action. I think this should become a formal announcement on geocaching.com. I don't want to draw a line in the sand that Groundspeak doesn't care about, themselves. They should separate out what is a paid feature and announce what is available to all.

 

As for those PM's who DID expect the PMO caches to be a completely separate experience, how will they be notified of this carte blanche availability to log their caches?

[+trainlove]

I agree with you Wild Thing, as I've said, I'd be embarassed to log a PM cache if I was only a basic member.

If I were not a PM today say since my membership ended last week, and then logged a cache today, and then the cache owner doesn't ever check his email and sees that I'm not a PM why should I feel embarrassed? The coords are on my GPS. I was at the cache. I signed the log book. I'm not a PM anymore. Why punish me?

As for those PM's who DID expect the PMO caches to be a completely separate experience, how will they be notified of this carte blanche availability to log their caches?

The implied policy has always been that it was OK for non PM's to log PMO caches. It's just not documented boldly for everyone to see. It's findable by those who need to know how. So there's no need to notify cache owners, they should know that their caches are noly not readable by non PM's, but they are findable and logable...

Edited November 26, 2008 by trainlove

[+gollie]

I agree with you Wild Thing, as I've said, I'd be embarassed to log a PM cache if I was only a basic member.

If I were not a PM today say since my membership ended last week, and then logged a cache today, and then the cache owner doesn't ever check his email and sees that I'm not a PM why should I feel embarrassed? The coords are on my GPS. I was at the cache. I signed the log book. I'm not a PM anymore. Why punish me?

 

-------gollie replying:

Implied policies are always a weird thing, leading to misunderstandings.

So if my gym membership expired last week, I don't need to feel odd about expecting to show up and work out for free? I came through the backdoor, I know where all the machines are, I still have my combination lock on the locker...

 

Who wants to punish? It's just funny how we make exceptions to how to behave in society when we personally have something to gain. This is all irrelevant as of today, because the moderator has said that the workaround will again be enabled. So we can all shake hands and say it was a fun discussion, anyway.

Groundspeak, make this workaround a formal feature.

[+tozainamboku]

-------gollie replying:

Implied policies are always a weird thing, leading to misunderstandings.

So if my gym membership expired last week, I don't need to feel odd about expecting to show up and work out for free? I came through the backdoor, I know where all the machines are, I still have my combination lock on the locker...

 

Who wants to punish? It's just funny how we make exceptions to how to behave in society when we personally have something to gain. This is all irrelevant as of today, because the moderator has said that the workaround will again be enabled. So we can all shake hands and say it was a fun discussion, anyway.

Groundspeak, make this workaround a formal feature.

I agree that Geocaching.com should clarify the benefits of premium membership so that people don't assume it means one thing when it means something else. There are several places on website that list the benefits of membership, and they don't even agree with one another. One list doesn't even mention PMOCs as a benefit. Elsewhere it is not made clear whether a PMOC simply hides the cache page and coordinates from non-paying member or whether the cache is not available for non-paying members to find.

 

Like other places where Geocaching.com is not clear, I prefer to view how the feature works defacto as opposed to how you might want it to work.

 

Geocaching.com lets me log finds on my own cache or lets me attend an event multiple times. So if some cache owner wants to allow multiple attended on their event, I view that as they way it works. I know a lot of people would think this is a bug in Geocaching.com and taking advantage of it is cheating.

 

Logging of PMOCs by non-premium members is the same. There are going to be times when a non-premium member is caching with a premium member who has a PMOC in their GPS. When the non premium member signs that log, they are going to want to log online as well. The fact that there is a way to do it means they will do so. Now, the cache owner may believe that there is an implied additional requirement to log a PMOC online. And like any other cache, the cache owner can delete the find log because the requirement is not met. I think that a cache owner that does this is just being mean, but it is certainly their prerogative.

[+baloo&bd]

I think the problem is in the interpretation of what a Premium Member is. I don't think all view it as a "membership". In fact, I would venture that more than you think view iut as you see described below.

 

When I joined, I did not even know, or for that matter look, at what add-ons I got for my money. My intent was to support the site. This is something I do on many sites, many of which offer nothing in addition for your voluntary contribution. (i.e. CastleCops, Yotatech, etc.). I am fortunate to be able to do it.

 

Much like many of the trails in our area, that are free to use but will gladly accept contributions for upkeep, this is for the most part what it appeared to me at the time GC was doing. I have since found out that they give some things to people who contribute as a thank you. I also believe that the only reason they were implemented is that geocaching took off faster and way beyond what Jeremy envisioned or hoped for and he suddenly found himself with more out of pocket expenses than he anticipated and needed to find a way to cover them. Possibly he did not want to count on enough people like me to be out there, although I think he would have been pleasantly surprised.

 

The only really "bennie" I use is PQ's. PMOC's make no sense to me and in fact are being abused in my area by someone who uses the audit log to hound people for not posting a DNF since they looked at it they must have sought it. rare, but one of the abuses that does happen. You can argue the validity of PMOC's, but in the end, they do nothing to further the sport, or protect it as many seem to believe.

 

I live in a town that is agricultural and near a major university. This makes for a lot of big families and an more than we like common possibility of a family that has to watch their dollars. Young kids who participate with mom or dad in hobbies like to exhibit some independence and have their own accounts. When the micro arguments come up it is often pointed out that swag (another practice i do not understand) is a big attraction to our younger cachers. That argument swings both ways so the reasonable compromise is the feature that allows non-PM to log PM caches.

 

No one gets harmed and if you feel you are supporting freeloaders, pull your support. Just don't make people with legitimate reasons for not having the money to make the contribution not be able to share their experience caching with friends or family online.

 

I dropped my PBS subscription when the programming started to disappear that I watched and then they started carrying advertising. My neighbor lets me see the magazine they send out to contributors after he is through with it and it is also in my local library. Am I cheating reading them?

 

Having said all this, this should probably be moved to one of the many "why PMOC's" threads out there.

[+Team B.L.T.]

Well has this been fixed yet. Are non-PM's able to log PM caches again yet?

[+Okiebryan]

I wonder how the geocachers feel when they "cheat". and it is cheating because you are not paying your PM dues.....These "dues" provide much of the "bells and whistles" that we enjoy. The cheaters are playing the game that others support with their membership $. I knew there was a method to circumvent the PM, so, when I'm aware of this cheating, I delete their log entry on my "PM only" caches...What part of "only" don't they understand...Why would geocaching condone cheating? Stay safe and stick to the rules....

 

I have a PM membership, but my kids don't. When we cache together, and we find a PMOC, I always helped them use the "workaround" to log their perfectly legitimate finds.

 

If you were to delete my kids' logs in that case, that would be the LAST cache of yours that I would ever seek. Onto the ignore list your caches would go.

 

May I suggest that deleting the log of someone who actually found your cache and signed the logbook is a crock full of a certain well-known commodity?

[jholly]

I wonder how the geocachers feel when they "cheat". and it is cheating because you are not paying your PM dues.....These "dues" provide much of the "bells and whistles" that we enjoy. The cheaters are playing the game that others support with their membership $. I knew there was a method to circumvent the PM, so, when I'm aware of this cheating, I delete their log entry on my "PM only" caches...What part of "only" don't they understand...Why would geocaching condone cheating? Stay safe and stick to the rules....

 

I have a PM membership, but my kids don't. When we cache together, and we find a PMOC, I always helped them use the "workaround" to log their perfectly legitimate finds.

 

If you were to delete my kids' logs in that case, that would be the LAST cache of yours that I would ever seek. Onto the ignore list your caches would go.

 

May I suggest that deleting the log of someone who actually found your cache and signed the logbook is a crock full of a certain well-known commodity?

 

Actually if brought to the attention of the frog, the CO might get banned for a while and the logs re-instated.

 

Jim

[+trainlove]

Well has this been fixed yet. Are non-PM's able to log PM caches again yet?

No it has not been fixed, contrary to wha tthe powers that be have previously said.

But perhaps they said that it was going to get fixed.

That has not occurred yet whatever the case.

 

you still get the following when you try method 1, or 2 or 3:

Geocaching Home > Seek > Cache Logs 


View a Cache Log 
Sorry, the owner of this listing has made it viewable to subscribers only. Visit the premium member page to find out how to upgrade your account to a premium member.

Visit another listing:  
Geocaching.com 

[+Lt.Ranger.Bob]

Yep still broke or "fixed" depending on your point of view.

[+Team B.L.T.]

We maybe after the 1st of the year. Maybe the holidays are just holding them up.

[+Barnie's Band of Gold]

We maybe after the 1st of the year. Maybe the holidays are just holding them up.

Post #61 suggested the fix would be going in the week after November 26th.....

 

didn't see a reference to a year though

[+Allanon]

According to someone that wanted to use the 'backdoor' yesterday to log the caches he did with his son...the door is locked and there's no key under the mat.

[+baloo&bd]

Any word on this fix yet?

[+trainlove]

Any word on this fix yet?

I'm thinking Tuesday is too close to the end of the week. LOL.

And 12/16 is too close to Christmas and to the end of the whole year in general.

So I think they don't want to 'break' anything else 'fixing' this while everyone is away on vacation (perhaps caching?).

 

I know, everywhere I have worked, we kept a skeleton crew on during any and all holidays. But sadly I was 'Exempt' from overtime pay for any of those times I was IT.

[+paleolith]

Still fixed, or broken, or whatever. Doesn't matter to me but I know someone to whom it matters.

 

I've placed a few caches. None are PMOC, but I have no problem with PMs logging them.

 

Edward

[ao318]

I became tired of reading all of these posts because there were so many so i jumped to the end of the topic. From the last few posts, I am gathering that most people are still unable to log non PM into PM caches. I am a premium member and my kids are not. I am still able to log them onto premium sites. I just showed a friend how to do it last week and tested it before I made this post. He does it the way you all are doing it, I do it a different way that still works for me. Since there seems to be so much concern about this process and if would you like to know how I do it, please email me from my profile page and I will explain the process to you.

 

If you would like to make it public I can do that also but is there the concern of also fixing this loophole?

 

Paul, ao318

 

Please look at post #85 for clarification

Edited December 19, 2008 by ao318

[+edscott]

I became tired of reading all of these posts because there were so many so i jumped to the end of the topic. From the last few posts, I am gathering that most people are still unable to log non PM into PM caches. I am a premium member and my kids are not. I am still able to log them onto premium sites. I just showed a friend how to do it last week and tested it before I made this post. He does it the way you all are doing it, I do it a different way that still works for me. Since there seems to be so much concern about this process and if would like to know how I do it, please email me from my profile page and I will explain the process to you.

 

If you would like to make it public I can do that also but is there the concern of also fixing this loophole?

 

Paul, ao318

 

You may have a way, but the old way has been blocked in spite of the word from GC.com that it would not be.

[LQ]

I did beleive that this was a feature blessed by Jeremy. But apparently it doesn't work anymore.

 

This fix made it's way to a developer's plate without being fully vetted. In fact, it could be argued that it is indeed broken, but in this case it was broken in a good way, as Jeremy's comment in the past has affirmed.

 

We are reversing the change so family's can once again log the same cache. We may be able to slip in the hotfix today, but it could be early next week. I'm very sorry for anyone who was upset by this change.

 

Edit: It will have to be Monday or Tuesday. We're just not comfortable releasing new code before a holiday weekend. Just remember which PMOC's you find and log them next week. Thanks.

 

Still not working, as it used to.

 

I am a premium member and my kids are not. I am still able to log them onto premium sites. I just showed a friend how to do it last week and tested it before I made this post. He does it the way you all are doing it, I do it a different way that still works for me.

 

Obviously one way to do it, is to ask the cache owner to temporary make the cache non-PO. I assume this isn't your method? I don't need this right now, but I hope there will be a working method one way or another, when I do.

 

For those of you who may suspect, that ao318 is just trolling:

as an example, check this log.

[ao318]

Hello,

 

Let me clarify something before I get more emails complaining that it just can't be done. I have never utilized the way that has been mentioned in this post in logging non PM finds onto PM caches. I am a PM and my daughters, ages 12 and 9, are not. I have been logging their finds for quite some time onto PM caches. I cannot justify spending $60.00 a year to make them PM's so they can just log a few more finds.

 

I did try and email owners for permission to open the cache for me to log their finds but out of 10 emails I received 1 reply and that reply informed me of the "backdoor" logging capabilities and to look up how to do it via the forums. I also emailed owners asking for permission to log via a "backdoor" procedure, again out of about 10 emails I received 1 reply and they didn't care what I did.

 

The way I do it does not allow for just a non PM to log in a find into a PM cache. My way enables families or teams with at least one (1) PM to log the finds of non PM's onto PM caches. This is what I thought this topic was about. If you have doubts about the ability to do this, than check out my daughters profiles, sarahbear5 and ry-ry606(both non PM), and see that they have logs as recently as December 5th on a PM cache.

 

Again, if you would like to know how I am able to log their finds than email me and I will pass on the information. I "do not" know of a way for just a non PM to log the find unless they have a friend or family member who is a PM to help them.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul, ao318

Edited December 19, 2008 by ao318

[+Harry Dolphin]

Wow! That worked. I'm impressed! Like a devious mystery cache. All parts in place, but who'd a thunk of that?

Thank you very much!!!!

[Mesa Mike]

You can still "watch" a PMO cache if you're a non-PM.

I leave it as an exercise to y'all to figger out how...

[+weathernowcast]

You can still "watch" a PMO cache if you're a non-PM.

I leave it as an exercise to y'all to figger out how...

 

I've been contacted by people to log my members only caches. I always let them.

[+gollie]

Hello,

 

Let me clarify something before I get more emails complaining that it just can't be done. I have never utilized the way that has been mentioned in this post in logging non PM finds onto PM caches. I am a PM and my daughters, ages 12 and 9, are not. I have been logging their finds for quite some time onto PM caches. I cannot justify spending $60.00 a year to make them PM's so they can just log a few more finds.

 

I did try and email owners for permission to open the cache for me to log their finds but out of 10 emails I received 1 reply and that reply informed me of the "backdoor" logging capabilities and to look up how to do it via the forums. I also emailed owners asking for permission to log via a "backdoor" procedure, again out of about 10 emails I received 1 reply and they didn't care what I did.

 

The way I do it does not allow for just a non PM to log in a find into a PM cache. My way enables families or teams with at least one (1) PM to log the finds of non PM's onto PM caches. This is what I thought this topic was about. If you have doubts about the ability to do this, than check out my daughters profiles, sarahbear5 and ry-ry606(both non PM), and see that they have logs as recently as December 5th on a PM cache.

 

Again, if you would like to know how I am able to log their finds than email me and I will pass on the information. I "do not" know of a way for just a non PM to log the find unless they have a friend or family member who is a PM to help them.

 

Thanks,

 

Paul, ao318

gollie replying; Families and or teams having a way to log PM caches as a team is something I've said before that I wish Groundspeak would formalize. The distinction of having at least one family member on board as a PM seems like good form, at the very least. The cacher from Sac may be testing a 'bug' that Groundspeak should indefinitely allow and even formalize.

[ao318]

I would be more than glad to pay extra for a family account that would enable the PM to log the finds for the individuals in their family that are not PM's. I just don't need another set of notifications, PQ's, or other services or benefits of a PM for my daughters who are 9 and 12. They never go out without me. I'm the one who enters the coordinates into their GPS's, I'm the one who drives us to the caches, and I'm the one who log's their finds for them.

 

What it really comes down to is their ability to see "smiley faces" on their account page and in their map. If we were not able to log their finds into PMO caches I would still make a note of them being with me on my log and state who found it and state that they aren't able to log a find. I would also update their profile page with GSAK, which would have their true number of finds and accomplishments. I would then make a note on their profile page as to why their numbers differed because of the inability to log finds onto PM caches.

 

I would not try and contact the owner because, as I stated in my previous post, it doesn't always work. The most important thing to me is not the ability to log finds on the cache pages but the time I spend with my daughters. This is quality time that enables me to see smiles on my girls faces and not just on a website.

Edited December 22, 2008 by ao318

[+Lil Devil]

... for my daughters who are 9 and 12. ... I'm the one who log's their finds for them.

A little controlling are we? At 9 and 12 they're old enough to write their own logs

 

/soapbox

[+Parabola]

 

This fix made it's way to a developer's plate without being fully vetted. In fact, it could be argued that it is indeed broken, but in this case it was broken in a good way, as Jeremy's comment in the past has affirmed.

 

We are reversing the change so family's can once again log the same cache. We may be able to slip in the hotfix today, but it could be early next week. I'm very sorry for anyone who was upset by this change.

 

Edit: It will have to be Monday or Tuesday. We're just not comfortable releasing new code before a holiday weekend. Just remember which PMOC's you find and log them next week. Thanks.

 

Any status on this Nate? Thanks.

[+Rockin Roddy]

... for my daughters who are 9 and 12. ... I'm the one who log's their finds for them.

A little controlling are we? At 9 and 12 they're old enough to write their own logs

 

/soapbox

 

And that matters to you...how??

 

/soapbox

[+Rockin Roddy]

... for my daughters who are 9 and 12. ... I'm the one who log's their finds for them.

A little controlling are we? At 9 and 12 they're old enough to write their own logs

 

/soapbox

 

And that matters to you...how??

 

/soapbox

[+baloo&bd]

Any status on this Nate? Thanks.

 

Workaround is great, but any status when this will fixed?

[+Renegade Knight]

...why pay for what you can just take....... this carte blanche availability to log their caches?

 

Your assumptions are off base.

You can't view the page. It's possible with a heck of a lot more work to figure out the locaiton of a PMO cache, but you still can't view the page. Thats the only promise made by this site.

 

If you log the cache, you still can't veiw the page. IF you have a rule that says 'NON PMO Members need not apply" It's up to you to plolice any logs of any folks who found your cache by accident, who were with a PMO, or who used the brute force method. After all you were never promissed they can't find your cache. Only that they can't see your page (where you as a doofie might have said "PMO Only".

 

Translated. A cacher can't do to a PMO cache any more than a muggle can do entirly on accident. This isn't broken.

[+Cache O'Plenty]

I thought the sole purpose of PMO caches was to help improve security. It was to reduce the "common" websurfer from plundering valuable caches of coins, TBs or just plain reduce vandalism. Some of these caches are expensive to build and need some level of security. The bad guys can have all the Altoids tins they want. At least they would have to pay $30 (or just $3) just to have the joy of plunder. These bad guys won't be logging their plunder anyway.

 

I have no issue with family members of a PMO logging their finds under their own name/account - it helps the game and actually generates future business for when they get old enough to have their own PM account.

 

Maybe we could add a function where their account is somehow linked to the "parent" account for PMO logging. For non-PMO caches, they can log with just their cache name but for a PMO, they have to include the PM they were "escorted" by.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Cache O'Plenty

[+Hydros_cz]

I found this topic becose we found 2 PMO caches on our last trip and we have 2 acounts (my wife is no PM) and now i found she cant log it with old "backdoors"

 

I think its agains rules

 

From oficial FAQ:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

But now ... if no PM found PMO cache in acident or with PM ... is not point 3. posible ....

PMO is good if u want for some reason biger protection for your cache .... but i dont think ... if not PM cant log PMO cache help with that ....

Edited December 28, 2008 by Hydros_cz

[+Hydros_cz]

I found this topic becose we found 2 PMO caches on our last trip and we have 2 acounts (my wife is no PM) and now i found she cant log it with old "backdoors"

 

I think its agains rules

 

From oficial FAQ:

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

 

But now ... if no PM found PMO cache in acident or with PM ... is not point 3. posible ....

PMO is good if u want for some reason biger protection for your cache .... but i dont think ... if not PM can log PMO cache help with that ....

[+CCWelch]

1) I am not currently a premium member but will become one soon

2) I am waiting to be able to log the premium caches I have found with the people I cache with that are premium members.

3) I feel that Geocaching.com needs to have some sort of family or team rate for premium membership allowing each member to separately and/or as a team log a PM Cache. This is especially important with the down turn in the economy.

4) I understand the reasoning of PM members putting up PM caches but they better not ever complain about the lack of people logging their caches, many Cachers get together to cache and often one is a premium member and the others are not, so you get a group of 4 or 5, all find it only 1 can log it.

5) I don't see a lot of extra good perks to premium membership over a regular membership, so ask yourself seriously before you put out a cache. Do I really want my fellow cachers to be limited by this being a premium cache?

6) Sorry for being on my soapbox but if there were not premium caches that are not able to be logged by regular members would there be any premium members??