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Premium Member Only caches are elitist!


smomofo
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All my cache hides are Premium Member Only and I'll tell you why. It's not to keep out good people who can't afford to pay for a Premium Membership in these hard economic times. It's to maintain some control and accountability. There's a limited number of cachers who can access the location now and I can see which accounts have viewed the cache page, when and how many times. I like that.

 

I'm hardly an elitest at 85 finds. :)

 

- Elle

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PMO caches are NOT elitist.

My one and only PMO cache is such since I'd like to see how often someone looks at the cache page by using the Audit List feature.

Anyone can find and log nearly any PMO Traditional cache. As long as you do not need to read the cache page (don't many people never read the cache page for most caches?) then you can easily get the coords and use the approved method of logging them.

Many people go caching in groups and not all are Premium Members so they are allowed to log the caches they found as a group since they signed the log book...

I'd consider making my PMO cache not be PMO status anymore. I've not been a Premium Member for something like 20 months. I still have access to MY cache is all ways that matter, but nobody who's not a Premium Member can make or unmake a PMO cache, it's a catch 22.

 

Lots on the subject has been said in the following topic, incluing how one can see PMO caches without being detected, how one can log any cache or travel bug and not have the owner get an email and so on.

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...=205691&hl=

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As you can tell, I am pretty new to Geocaching, but not new to using a GPS... So far I have logged a meager 8 Caches in the last week and a half (Cause I just started), but I became a PM because the fun I had with my kids was PRICELESS to me. I knew I had to support something that provided me with more family bonding time. Additionally the Pocket Queries were a feature I could really use... PMOC in no way influenced my decision to become a PM. Then I come across these forum posts and my stomach churns "Elitist!" OMG "My Food is coming up"... Whats Elitist about providing added services for money (Capitalism). I could think of a few things that fall with in the scope of the definition for the word Elitist, but charging for added services or functionality is not one of them. Why people take stuff like this to heart never ceases to amaze me.

 

This is fine and dandy. The "charging for added services or functionality" model is all over the internet. Yahoo Mail. Pandora and LastFM (internet radio). But I think you missed the point totally, this is about MOC's and the "pay to play" aspect of them.

 

Is it just me, or was this a more controversial subject in the past, and these threads have become increasingly "pro-MOC" as the years go by? :)

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Just did a quick check... 77 of my closest 200 are PMOCs, or 38.5%

 

This is of course only one data point.

 

The Cooker

 

That's almost exactly what it was (40%) for the thread I mentioned earlier; a zip code about 15 miles from where I live, and a newb started a thread about it. And trust me, he did not go on to become an active geocacher. I believe it turned him off, and a potentional geocacher was lost.

 

These figures are unusually high for a couple of specific locations though.

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In that case, then, your concern is apparently for the feelings of those who have not chosen, as you have, to support the website. Do you not, then, find any comfort in the fact that each of those non-paying members is free to adjust his point of view from one of entitlement to one of gratitude, as I described in my 5%/95% comment?

 

My concern is that non-premium members are viewed as people who do not support the site. I believe that non-premium members are an invaluable asset to the site/geocaching activity as a whole: they place many of the caches (most in my area), which costs money, that make the game more fun for all members. This makes the site membership grow, which will in turn please advertisers who give money to the site.

 

It seems to me that PMOC's risk alienating a large segment of the geocaching community, and if they get upset and stop geocaching, it will not be good for the activity, overall.

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I don't know if I'd consider it elitist or not. But even if it were, who cares?? Who said your life had to be fair? Worrying about your feelings should not be considered when making a business decision. One of the reasons why this country is losing its grasp on power in the world... :)

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It seems to me that PMOC's risk alienating a large segment of the geocaching community, and if they get upset and stop geocaching, it will not be good for the activity, overall.

 

So far, your theory has been debunked. Geocaching has grown exponentially since the inception of the Premium member cache option.

 

 

I think I heard Obama say the govt. was going to make Geocaching free to the poor, at the expense of the rich :)

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I've been a premium member since they first introduced the concept (I'm also a platinum member... it's nice to get new cache notifications before the cache is even placed). The only time I've been concerned about moc's was briefly the first time I read about some concerns similar to this thread early on. Got over it quickly, as it's not really an issue for me, and it's not my job to judge other peoples cache hides. For years now I've not even bothered noticing if caches are moc's or not.

 

I do think that clicking that moc check box on the cache edit page should only be done in situations where it's really needed - as per some other comments in this thread. I've seen a few instances where a newer member will post a bunch of moc caches just because they can, which isn't a good reason, but people learn about these things at different rates.

Edited by sduck
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All my cache hides are Premium Member Only and I'll tell you why. It's not to keep out good people who can't afford to pay for a Premium Membership in these hard economic times. It's to maintain some control and accountability. There's a limited number of cachers who can access the location now and I can see which accounts have viewed the cache page, when and how many times. I like that.

 

I'm hardly an elitest at 85 finds. :)

 

- Elle

 

Actually, I think that the audit log is a.) A violation of my web surfing privacy (some nosy person once actually sent me an email asking why I looked at their MOC; all I was doing was surfing the freaking web :)) and b.) Can lead to baseless allegations and angst over missing TB's and coins, cache mugglings etc...

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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I don't know if I'd consider it elitist or not. But even if it were, who cares?? Who said your life had to be fair? Worrying about your feelings should not be considered when making a business decision. One of the reasons why this country is losing its grasp on power in the world... :)

 

Uh, I'm Canadian: my country has no grasp on power in the world.

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I don't know if I'd consider it elitist or not. But even if it were, who cares?? Who said your life had to be fair? Worrying about your feelings should not be considered when making a business decision. One of the reasons why this country is losing its grasp on power in the world... :)

 

Uh, I'm Canadian: my country has no grasp on power in the world.

And it never will with that attitude!

 

:)

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How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

How upset would I be? Not even the slightest bit. Many years ago I purchased a small calibre handgun for my wife, with the explicit instructions to shoot me in the foot if I started displaying signs of entitlement overdose. A premium membership is simply a choice. I seriously doubt that anyone who is capable of purchasing a GPSr, a computer and Internet access, (or the transportation necessary to utilize public computers), could convince me they were financially unable to come up with $30 in a twelve month period. If someone were to try and spread such a myth, I would have to question their budgeting skills. Anything that is a matter of choice, available to all, cannot, by definition, be considered elitist.

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Sorry, there are enough other things on my "list" to be offended by other than MOC.

 

I like the idea of launching a cache as MOC and then opening it up later. It does show support for the game, at least with the annual dues. Bits, bytes, servers, power. None of that stuff is even close to free. Web geeks gotta eat too ya know.

 

Heck, for the amount of entertainment one gets from the actual playing with caches and all the fun on the forums, the annual membership seems pretty cheap. (Don't tell Jeremy I said that......)

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I have no problem with PMOC's although I don't currently have any out.

A couple of years ago a few of us locals changed ALL of ours ( well over 100 caches ) to PMO. The reason was young teenage muggles who used the site to vandalize caches ( they were caught in the act by a local cacher).....the problem stopped and we swapped them back........PMOC's cut down on 90% + of this stuff ( just last week I found a bison with no log and filled with a yellow sudsy liquid, clearly intentional :) ......we cleaned the bison and our hands and added a new log)......lots of vandalism due to easy free access to the site/caches.

It wouldn't bother me a bit if ALL caches were PMO....besides being the right thing to do in order to support the site and future inovations the benefits alone are well worth the cost ( esp. the PQ's :) )

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All my cache hides are Premium Member Only and I'll tell you why. It's not to keep out good people who can't afford to pay for a Premium Membership in these hard economic times. It's to maintain some control and accountability. There's a limited number of cachers who can access the location now and I can see which accounts have viewed the cache page, when and how many times. I like that.

 

I'm hardly an elitest at 85 finds. :)

 

- Elle

 

Actually, I think that the audit log is a.) A violation of my web surfing privacy (some nosy person once actually sent me an email asking why I looked at their MOC; all I was doing was surfing the freaking web :)) and b.) Can lead to baseless allegations and angst over missing TB's and coins, cache mugglings etc...

 

When someone stole Cache the Rat (not the actual cache micro and log ... but the rubber rat that was hidden within) and then wrote on the log that they took it (and called us a name! *gasp), you better believe I scrutinised that audit... and the member pages of my local geocaching board. Nuffin. Nobody knew anything, either. I still say it smells conspiracy since rubber rats just don't go missing and with the coords being Premium Members Only, I know it had to be somebody with access to the information...

 

Of course, that whole cache is now archived on account of bees so it's all sorta moot.

 

- Elle

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All my cache hides are Premium Member Only and I'll tell you why. It's not to keep out good people who can't afford to pay for a Premium Membership in these hard economic times. It's to maintain some control and accountability. There's a limited number of cachers who can access the location now and I can see which accounts have viewed the cache page, when and how many times. I like that.

 

I'm hardly an elitest at 85 finds. :)

 

- Elle

 

Actually, I think that the audit log is a.) A violation of my web surfing privacy (some nosy person once actually sent me an email asking why I looked at their MOC; all I was doing was surfing the freaking web :lol:) and b.) Can lead to baseless allegations and angst over missing TB's and coins, cache mugglings etc...

 

When someone stole Cache the Rat (not the actual cache micro and log ... but the rubber rat that was hidden within) and then wrote on the log that they took it (and called us a name! *gasp), you better believe I scrutinised that audit... and the member pages of my local geocaching board. Nuffin. Nobody knew anything, either. I still say it smells conspiracy since rubber rats just don't go missing and with the coords being Premium Members Only, I know it had to be somebody with access to the information...

 

Of course, that whole cache is now archived on account of bees so it's all sorta moot.

 

- Elle

 

I just looked at Cache the Rat, so don't be emailing me and asking why I looked at your cache page. :) Interesting swarm of bees there, I'd have archived the cache too.

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When someone stole Cache the Rat (not the actual cache micro and log ... but the rubber rat that was hidden within) and then wrote on the log that they took it (and called us a name! *gasp), you better believe I scrutinised that audit... and the member pages of my local geocaching board. Nuffin. Nobody knew anything, either. I still say it smells conspiracy since rubber rats just don't go missing and with the coords being Premium Members Only, I know it had to be somebody with access to the information...

 

Of course, that whole cache is now archived on account of bees so it's all sorta moot.

 

- Elle

 

I'm not sure of you knew this, but people can get the coords to a premium members only traditional cache without ever opening your cache page.

 

Download a PQ that includes your cache.

Open the PQ with GSAK, and the coords are listed in the GPX file.

I was informed of this a few years back.

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When someone stole Cache the Rat (not the actual cache micro and log ... but the rubber rat that was hidden within) and then wrote on the log that they took it (and called us a name! *gasp), you better believe I scrutinised that audit... and the member pages of my local geocaching board. Nuffin. Nobody knew anything, either. I still say it smells conspiracy since rubber rats just don't go missing and with the coords being Premium Members Only, I know it had to be somebody with access to the information...

 

Of course, that whole cache is now archived on account of bees so it's all sorta moot.

 

- Elle

 

I'm not sure of you knew this, but people can get the coords to a premium members only traditional cache without ever opening your cache page.

 

Download a PQ that includes your cache.

Open the PQ with GSAK, and the coords are listed in the GPX file.

I was informed of this a few years back.

 

You can get also coords that are pretty close by looking at kml files of travel bugs that have visited the MOC cache in question, however this is really only effective for traditional style caches.

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When someone stole Cache the Rat (not the actual cache micro and log ... but the rubber rat that was hidden within) and then wrote on the log that they took it (and called us a name! *gasp), you better believe I scrutinised that audit... and the member pages of my local geocaching board. Nuffin. Nobody knew anything, either. I still say it smells conspiracy since rubber rats just don't go missing and with the coords being Premium Members Only, I know it had to be somebody with access to the information...

 

Of course, that whole cache is now archived on account of bees so it's all sorta moot.

 

- Elle

 

I'm not sure of you knew this, but people can get the coords to a premium members only traditional cache without ever opening your cache page.

 

Download a PQ that includes your cache.

Open the PQ with GSAK, and the coords are listed in the GPX file.

I was informed of this a few years back.

 

You can get also coords that are pretty close by looking at kml files of travel bugs that have visited the MOC cache in question, however this is really only effective for traditional style caches.

 

Yeah, good points you two, I didn't even think about that stuff. A couple of guys in my area went out and found just about every MOC in town to prove a point once. And that was 2005 I believe, I'm not so sure Google Earth even existed then. I'd always assumed they just did it by triangulation (mainly distance and direction from all the nearby caches).

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Maybe the feature you're buying into is the audit log on the PMOC? The "elitist" feature is useful if you have someone in your area going around pirating caches. Anyone can anonymously sign up for a free account and start pillaging caches. Creating a PMOC helps (not completely) circumvent these types of actions.

 

I'm sure you'll feel differently when you have $50 invested in a cache only to have it defaced with only a note left behind saying your cache has been pirated.

 

At least with a PMOC you know that Groundspeak has the personal/billing information on the cachers finding your caches should there be a need to investigate for whatever reason.

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Maybe the feature you're buying into is the audit log on the PMOC? The "elitist" feature is useful if you have someone in your area going around pirating caches. Anyone can anonymously sign up for a free account and start pillaging caches. Creating a PMOC helps (not completely) circumvent these types of actions.

 

I'm sure you'll feel differently when you have $50 invested in a cache only to have it defaced with only a note left behind saying your cache has been pirated.

 

At least with a PMOC you know that Groundspeak has the personal/billing information on the cachers finding your caches should there be a need to investigate for whatever reason.

 

Yikes, sounds a little big brotherish to me. :) Besides, myself and D@nim@l documented two ways in which non-members can find MOC's, if they really wanted to. I'll bet you didn't know non-members can log 'em too!

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About 99% of my hides are PMOC, I found it cuts out the stealing of trackables. A thief is not going to ante up the 3 bucks a month for a PM, also he is not going to ante up for GSAK,if they are prone to steal trackables, they are also to lazy to wait on the nag screen. Also I

like being able to see who views my hides,you can just about tell who is going to go after them. I recently hid a cache that was rated 4 1/2 / 5

only 2 local cachers (PM'S) have attempted it, just this weekend

someone drove from Dallas to log it. It has several trackables in it

and the FTF took only one coin. The Gentleman from Dallas took nothing

but did leave his sig item, thats' after a 4 mile hike, very steep terrain and going in a cave. I believe the MOc's have their place,plus I get to support Groundspeak.

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Am I alone here?

No, there are some that don't like PM caches, but I think they have their place.

 

A friend hid a coin hotel. All the coins disappeared a week or so later, so he relocated the cache...they disappeared again a few days later. He relocated the cache and made it PM only. Cache has been in place for months and had no problems. Not sure if it was related, but it was coincidental.

 

Probably the thieves now have back problems from schlepping all those coins.

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If I was to consider the determination of a cache maggot, I don't know if a PM cache would be my first line of defense. Upping the difficulty levels (Terrain, distance/Multi, puzzle) is probably a greater deterrence. If they are out to get me I don't know if a short term membership is going to slow them down. Although if I remember correctly it isn't just 3 bucks a month anymore.

 

If the targeted cache was a hotel, (and I own one) I'd likely lose the hotel option if not archive it straight off.

 

As for being an elitist, no, I think people generally have good intentions for making it a MOC and not simply to exclude others for being non-paying members. Maybe a few but not enough to make a sweeping statement that Premium Member Only caches are elitist!

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Maybe the feature you're buying into is the audit log on the PMOC? The "elitist" feature is useful if you have someone in your area going around pirating caches. Anyone can anonymously sign up for a free account and start pillaging caches. Creating a PMOC helps (not completely) circumvent these types of actions.

 

I'm sure you'll feel differently when you have $50 invested in a cache only to have it defaced with only a note left behind saying your cache has been pirated.

 

At least with a PMOC you know that Groundspeak has the personal/billing information on the cachers finding your caches should there be a need to investigate for whatever reason.

 

If your cache goes missing you can look at your audit logs all you want. You still don't know who took your cache. And why would Groundspeak get involved in your witch hunt if your PMOC cache goes missing? You don't have a clue who took it and neither does Groundspeak.

 

Jim

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smomofo, you are actually relatively close to a cache trasher and coin thief. A couple of people have mentioned this aspect of why Premium Member caches are out there. His actions can be somewhat random, and if he ever vacations to the east and decides to trash your cache, you will appreciate PM caches a bit more.

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Hey!

 

I have to echo the comments made by all of those proponents of Premium Membership. It's all very well that someone hides some tupperware in a bush, but it's the paying membership who keep the GC.Com site up and running so we can continue this game we call Geocaching.

 

Truly, I don't know why anyone wouldn't pay for a premium membership. Geeeeezzzzzzz. One night at the bar will easily sink that much money. And, honestly, yeah, if I (as a paying member) go out and put MY good money into a cache, I would just as well assume another paying member found it. For that, I make no apologies.

 

Cache Safe,

Pete

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As you can tell, I am pretty new to Geocaching, but not new to using a GPS... So far I have logged a meager 8 Caches in the last week and a half (Cause I just started), but I became a PM because the fun I had with my kids was PRICELESS to me. I knew I had to support something that provided me with more family bonding time. Additionally the Pocket Queries were a feature I could really use... PMOC in no way influenced my decision to become a PM. Then I come across these forum posts and my stomach churns "Elitist!" OMG "My Food is coming up"... Whats Elitist about providing added services for money (Capitalism). I could think of a few things that fall with in the scope of the definition for the word Elitist, but charging for added services or functionality is not one of them. Why people take stuff like this to heart never ceases to amaze me.

 

This is fine and dandy. The "charging for added services or functionality" model is all over the internet. Yahoo Mail. Pandora and LastFM (internet radio). But I think you missed the point totally, this is about MOC's and the "pay to play" aspect of them.

 

Is it just me, or was this a more controversial subject in the past, and these threads have become increasingly "pro-MOC" as the years go by? :D

 

I did not miss the point, you just filtered my comment with your own interpretation. There is no, pay to play, this sight is about free GeoCaching, but if you become a member, you:

A.) Get access to other services, like (PMOC, Pocket Queries, etc...) (and as stated before PMOC don't make up the bulk of Caches anyhow)

B.) Able to view other forum content.

C.) Support the sight and further inovation...

D.) Show some gratitude for the hard work involved in making this all come together.

 

But thanks for interpretation... :D

Edited by Magnesium
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I have been geocaching for about 8 months, but only became a Premium Member about 2 weeks ago. I shelled out a membership fee to only support the activity and keep the site running, not because of the extra features that would come with a Premium Membership.

 

After becoming a Premium Member I noticed a couple more caches in my area, then noticed that they weren't new, but for Premium Members only! I think these are a disgusting feature. I waited a week before I posted this, giving myself time to cool off and think about it more, but I still hate the fact that they exist on this site.

 

I have no problem with any of the other features offered to Premium Members that make geocaching easier/more convenient/more fun. But to find out that regular (unpaying) members are excluded from some Geocaches is terrible.

 

I have heard the argument that the site needs to make money, so they have to offer features that will attract people to paying to become a Premium Member. That may be true, but it is my feeling that this should be done other ways. They already offer many other features to Premium Members, so they should still have membership fees coming in, plus, there is advertising on the site. I'm sure the advertisers are paying well.

 

I also argue that unpaying members are not just "freeloaders". I have several regular member friends that have placed many caches. Placing a new cache is not free: between the cost of a container, logbook, pencil, and some trade items, one can easily spend $20 to put out a cache. This site/activity depends on people placing new caches continuously, so should not be excluding those people from finding them.

 

How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

 

Am I alone here?

 

I don't see what the big deal is but you are entitled to your opinion. Honestly, Premium member caches are created by members wanting to give back to the community and other premium members. It is a choice for the hider. Besides, there are PLENTY of caches open to all.

 

I don't think anyone has ever said that unpaying members are "Freeloaders". If they did, I missed that convo.

 

I guess what it comes down to is that Groundspeak runs the site and you can either be a paying member or not. It is your choice. However, there is PLENTY of fun to be had by all.

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Yikes, sounds a little big brotherish to me. :) Besides, myself and D@nim@l documented two ways in which non-members can find MOC's, if they really wanted to. I'll bet you didn't know non-members can log 'em too!

 

I'm fully aware of the ways to find and log PMOC caches.

 

 

If your cache goes missing you can look at your audit logs all you want. You still don't know who took your cache. And why would Groundspeak get involved in your witch hunt if your PMOC cache goes missing? You don't have a clue who took it and neither does Groundspeak.

 

Jim

 

I'm sure you can think of other reasons why the logs for a cache might need investigating.

 

My point was is that it's been the experience of a few that switched a cache that was continually being stolen to a PMOC and the pirating stopped. There are rational reasons for a PMOC outside of the elitist connotation.

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Yikes, sounds a little big brotherish to me. :) Besides, myself and D@nim@l documented two ways in which non-members can find MOC's, if they really wanted to. I'll bet you didn't know non-members can log 'em too!

 

I'm fully aware of the ways to find and log PMOC caches.

 

 

If your cache goes missing you can look at your audit logs all you want. You still don't know who took your cache. And why would Groundspeak get involved in your witch hunt if your PMOC cache goes missing? You don't have a clue who took it and neither does Groundspeak.

 

Jim

 

I'm sure you can think of other reasons why the logs for a cache might need investigating.

 

My point was is that it's been the experience of a few that switched a cache that was continually being stolen to a PMOC and the pirating stopped. There are rational reasons for a PMOC outside of the elitist connotation.

I am not aware of these... Not that it matters because I am a PM, but someone point to these documents?

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I am not aware of these... Not that it matters because I am a PM, but someone point to these documents?

 

Go to any non-PMOC cache page. Click the link, "log your visit" in the upper right corner.

The url will look like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=232624

then change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code of the PMOC in question so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCNJVY

go to that link and log the cache.

Edited by D@nim@l
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I am not aware of these... Not that it matters because I am a PM, but someone point to these documents?

 

Go to any non-PMOC cache page. Click the link, "log your visit" in the upper right corner.

The url will look like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=232624

then change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code of the PMOC in question so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCNJVY

go to that link and log the cache.

 

Yeah, I wouldn't say documented, as in the official FAQ or anything. :) But a well known loophole acknowledged by TPTB in the forums. Come to think of it, I have seen it "documented" in a few peoples profile pages.

 

Hmm. I guess I can answer about 20 responses with this statement: Just becasue placing MOC's is one of the dozen or more benefits of a premium membership doesn't mean it has to be one of the dozen or more benefits. And people who place MOC's are not "giving back to" or "supporting" the website, they are simply placing caches that a large percentage of account holders can't find (obscure loopholes aside).

 

One of the anti-MOC threads listed on the first page of this thread is from the olden days, back when Jeremy used to interact and give opinions in the forums. He stated the main reason for the creation of MOC's was to prevent cache thefts/plundering. Although not perfect, they have been shown to be a moderately effective deterrent, so I can't argue wth that. :(

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I am not aware of these... Not that it matters because I am a PM, but someone point to these documents?

 

Go to any non-PMOC cache page. Click the link, "log your visit" in the upper right corner.

The url will look like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=232624

then change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code of the PMOC in question so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCNJVY

go to that link and log the cache.

Oh I am sorry. I guess I was referring to "finding" them part, not the logging part. I should have clarified. So let me rephrase this. Could someone point me to the documentation of how non-PM's can find PMOCs?

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I am not aware of these... Not that it matters because I am a PM, but someone point to these documents?

Go to any non-PMOC cache page. Click the link, "log your visit" in the upper right corner.

The url will look like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=232624

then change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code of the PMOC in question so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCNJVY go to that link and log the cache.

Oh I am sorry. I guess I was referring to "finding" them part, not the logging part. I should have clarified. So let me rephrase this. Could someone point me to the documentation of how non-PM's can find PMOCs?

Traditionals can be found by manipulating the Nearest Cache List. Change the coordinates in the URL until the distance to cache say "here" and you're within 20'.

 

Or you can be with someone who is a PM.

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I am not aware of these... Not that it matters because I am a PM, but someone point to these documents?

Go to any non-PMOC cache page. Click the link, "log your visit" in the upper right corner.

The url will look like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=232624

then change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code of the PMOC in question so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCNJVY go to that link and log the cache.

Oh I am sorry. I guess I was referring to "finding" them part, not the logging part. I should have clarified. So let me rephrase this. Could someone point me to the documentation of how non-PM's can find PMOCs?

Traditionals can be found by manipulating the Nearest Cache List. Change the coordinates in the URL until the distance to cache say "here" and you're within 20'.

 

Or you can be with someone who is a PM.

Huh, that's pretty cool. Anything else I should know about?

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I am not aware of these... Not that it matters because I am a PM, but someone point to these documents?

 

Go to any non-PMOC cache page. Click the link, "log your visit" in the upper right corner.

The url will look like this http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?ID=232624

then change the "ID=" to "WP=" and replace the number with the GC code of the PMOC in question so you get:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?WP=GCNJVY

go to that link and log the cache.

Oh I am sorry. I guess I was referring to "finding" them part, not the logging part. I should have clarified. So let me rephrase this. Could someone point me to the documentation of how non-PM's can find PMOCs?

 

First let me clarify that most of the PM caches around me aren't worth finding cause they are micros, so I don't bother with them. If I had to find it I would just ask someone to print out the page for me, but time equals money so in some regards one might be better off paying the three bucks and getting the coords and the info instead of the alternate methods. The alternate method that I would try first goes down like this and it is only going to work if you are just looking for a traditional single stage cache.

 

For example, if you look at the HauntHunters profile you will see that they have a travel bug or two that they have launched or have visited one of their PMOC caches. Find the page for that travel bug. In the upper right hand corner find the link that says "View in Google Earth". If you open up that file in notepad or as a word document instead of Google Earth you will see a string of information. At the bottom you will see coords listed like this;

 

-82.XXXX,27.XXXX,100

-82.XXXX,27.XXXX,100

-82.XXXX,27.XXXX,100

 

It's listed longitude first latitude second and disregard the 100. That will put you pretty darn close the rest is done on site looking for obvious hiding places according to the cache size.

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...

How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

 

Am I alone here?

 

I'd feel about the same as if I had placed a cache and it was blocked by a regular cache like a puzzle. The problem you chose isn't specific to PMO caches.

 

You are not alone. However you are also not fully versed in the Jedi Arts as they relate to PMO caches thus your opinion while strong, is based on incomplete information.

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When I began caching I sort of resented the fact that there were caches out there that I was not able to find. I even considered getting a membership so I could find them.. (none of the other perks of premium membership make much sense for a GPSless cacher) but eventually I realized that there are way more public caches for me to find than I can find in a lifetime and the Members Only caches have no special attributes that make them a more desirable find. I guess the only use I might have for a premium membership now would be the ability to ignore members only caches. :anibad:

Edited by edscott
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I've got a friend in the twin cities complaing about this problem as well.

 

Last year, there were tons of open caches. This year, all the caches in his area are PMOCs. He's not happy, because of the sudden shift. It didn't help, that when his house got broken into between all this, they stole his GPS, so when he finally got a new one, he finds the caches are "gone".

 

I assume PMOCs get used by people who have lost too many caches. It does reduce the chances of somebody using the free information to hunt and kill caches.

 

Personally, I try not to get wound up over what you get for free, versus what you have to pay for. I use a lot of other sites that are member supported. I don't pay on any of them. But I respect each site's right to limit what I get. If I'm not happy with the free stuff, I'll go find a site that gives me what I want for free.

 

In the same vein, this is why all the competing GC sites run similarly. Via ads or memberships to support it, the bulk of the goodies are free, because the other sites are "competition" and they're free there. It's economics.

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If I was to consider the determination of a cache maggot, I don't know if a PM cache would be my first line of defense. Upping the difficulty levels (Terrain, distance/Multi, puzzle) is probably a greater deterrence. If they are out to get me I don't know if a short term membership is going to slow them down. Although if I remember correctly it isn't just 3 bucks a month anymore....

 

Cache maggots are people too. What that means is that you have to know the dweezil to know what works best. In our area PMO works overall while Terrain and Difficulty doesn't. PMO wasn't perfect. They signed up and stole a buch of those but they seem to have a political bent against being a PMO and appear to have dropped that membership. Our Cache Maggot is a power cacher in their own right and would be a top notch local cacher but.. they just use their powers for evil.

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I have been geocaching for about 8 months, but only became a Premium Member about 2 weeks ago. I shelled out a membership fee to only support the activity and keep the site running, not because of the extra features that would come with a Premium Membership.

 

After becoming a Premium Member I noticed a couple more caches in my area, then noticed that they weren't new, but for Premium Members only! I think these are a disgusting feature. I waited a week before I posted this, giving myself time to cool off and think about it more, but I still hate the fact that they exist on this site.

 

I have no problem with any of the other features offered to Premium Members that make geocaching easier/more convenient/more fun. But to find out that regular (unpaying) members are excluded from some Geocaches is terrible.

 

I have heard the argument that the site needs to make money, so they have to offer features that will attract people to paying to become a Premium Member. That may be true, but it is my feeling that this should be done other ways. They already offer many other features to Premium Members, so they should still have membership fees coming in, plus, there is advertising on the site. I'm sure the advertisers are paying well.

 

I also argue that unpaying members are not just "freeloaders". I have several regular member friends that have placed many caches. Placing a new cache is not free: between the cost of a container, logbook, pencil, and some trade items, one can easily spend $20 to put out a cache. This site/activity depends on people placing new caches continuously, so should not be excluding those people from finding them.

 

How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

 

Am I alone here?

I dislike the MOC program, and don't much stock in the various reasons people claim to list their cache as MOC. There are afterall no rules on what a MOC must be, or who can buy a PM. In the end though, the cache owner is the cache owner.

Moving on, the main reason I am posting to clearify a few things you'd written that seem to be misleading.

1. When running cache searchs on gc.com the listings for MOC will show to everyone not just premium members. The differnce is that premium members can click the cache link and actually get to see the cache page. What I am getting at is that those MOC you noticed would have always been showing, and did not just 'show up after become PM'.

2. Remembering what was stated in number 1, if someone couldn't get there cache listed it would be because the other cache was a puzzle or multi (if MOC or not, wouldn't matter).

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