Premium Member Only caches are elitist!

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I've been following this thread for a while now, and despite claims that "it's not about feeling entitled," that's what your argument is really all about. You already get a lot for free, but you want everything for free. To allow myself just a brief hint of a rant, that attitude is what is wrong with our country. The new American Dream is to win a lawsuit and get rich for doing nothing. Same attitude. Ok, rant over.

 

$30 a year is not that much money. $3 a month is even less. You could buy one months Premium Membership, download everything you want with a string of PQs, and bam - you get what you want, you've paid for your share and you're only out 3 measly dollars.

 

...But that's just me. I believe in paying my fair share. Perhaps I'm a freak.

I agree entirely with your points above. I particularly agree that the small minority of posters who are complaining about PMOCs are really just airing their own sense of entitlement, and this goes especially for those who claim to be advancing very sophisticated arguments (against PMOCs) -- all they are doing is attempting to clothe their argument for entitlement in fancy words, in the hopes of disguising what they are really saying.

 

In fact, I must say something further on this matter, even though my outspokenness will likely get me banninated from the forums for a million years (gosh, at least Sioneva could not harass me so easily then...!); here goes:

 

I am frankly amazed and also very disappointed that this thread devoted to this inane premise (namely, that PMOCs are elitist) is still kept alive and kicking after 8 days and three pages by a small but vociferous minority who keep pushing, under various guises and arguments, the totally specious and self-serving hypotheis the PMOCs are elitist and undesirable. I must say that I would have expected better of the geocaching community, and I am disappointed at the lack of logic and, most importantly, the lack of a sense of gratitude and appreciation on the part of these people.

 

And, in light of this behavior that I have witnessed here over the past eight days, I must once again lower my estimation of the sanity, sincerity and open-heartedness of the geocaching community a few more notches. Sad! What I find most sad is the possibility that outsiders (including land managers and legislators) who are not geocachers, but who wish to learn more about geocaching and geocachers, might land in this forum and end up stumbling upon this thread, and there is the very real possibility that they might assume that the minority voices on this thread (which are attacking PMOCs as elitist) might perhaps be representative of the entire geocaching community. Frankly, if it were my forum, I would delete the entire thread because the very premise on which it was started disgusts me so much!

 

.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+ccwrestlechik105]

Well, I know that this topic has been beaten to death, but there is one point that I know of that no one else has brought up yet. The reason I became a member and the reason why I believe at least some PMs place MOC's is because they are trying to encourage other cachers to become PMs and help support the site.

 

Seriously, I am a poor struggling person straight out of college and I can barely afford to pay my rent, but what I can do, and what I think anybody can do for that matter, is to kick down three dollars a month to help support something that you love to do... it's really not that much money folks! And if they do raise the price, then it becomes what 4 or 5 dollars a month... woopideedoo!!!!

 

If you really don't want to pay though, you don't have to, like other people have said there are a million other caches that you can go find that are free.

 

Oh, and by the way, it's not elitism, it's capitalism, and what the heck is so wrong with that?!?!?

[+KBI]

Doesn't anybody remember Groundspeak's old radio commercial?

 

Members Only Caches! "Where the elite meet to greet and retreat discreet to repeat and complete the sweet treat – and defeat and cheat the unelite."

[+BuxCamper]

I've hunted a few PMOC caches but admitantly I tend not to pay attention to that detail when I look at the listings for my surburban Philadelphia area. (I think we have a pretty low concentration of them around here but I could be wrong.)

 

That being said, I have an idea for a cache (I'm not going to say what it is) which if I place I plan to make a PMOC. Only letting PMs look at the listing gives the cache a little extra security but is - of course - no guarantee. The cache itself won't be super hard to find. It will just have a little fun twist on what you have to do when you find it. And if you don't want to do that fun twist, then you can just sign the log. If the cache is just openly listed, based upon the concept I have, I wouldn't be surprised if its muggled within days of publication.

 

Edit: Additional detail.

Edited November 10, 2008 by BuxCamper

[+nelson crew]

Doesn't anybody remember Groundspeak's old radio commercial?

 

Members Only Caches! "Where the elite meet to greet and retreat discreet to repeat and complete the sweet treat – and defeat and cheat the unelite."

 

Wow. Now I'm going to have to dig up the ole' "Life in Hell" books again... Nicely done!

[+Renegade Knight]

...Am I alone here?

After pondering this entire elite thing for a while I've decided that most fly fisherman are elitists. I'd let that bother me but I take home more fish.

 

So I guess that means if a PMOC elitist goes caching he's got fewer to choose from. Of course when you think about it the anti elitist elitist who only finds regular caches has a bigger selection, but it's the cacher who just like caching who can find them all.

[+doingitoldschool]

I have just submitted our first PMOC for review. My motives were that it is a deliberately frustrating cache, and I wanted to keep rookies away from it. I don't mind giving my local caching friends a hard time, but I'm still aware of the newbies. And for those PM's from afar, you can take it or leave it .

[Clan Riffster]

Do you honestly expect others to pay for your entertainment forever? To me this is an elitist mentality.

I was leaning more toward an entitlement mentality, myself. Somehow the notion that charging money for something, then not allowing those who choose not to pay participate, is elitist, has wafted its ugly head in our society. It's reminiscent of the golfer who wants every course to be free to everyone because "God made the grass".

[4x4van]

A couple of points here; while I have always disagreed with the idea of MOCs (no secret), I don’t think it can be said that I have ever “Railed” against them. I simply think they do more harm than good to geocaching, and have always explained my reasoning without resorting to insults or name calling. In fact, I’ve never personally called MOCs elitist, I’ve only tried to explain why some people may consider them so. The last time I checked, I was still allowed to have an opinion, even if you don’t agree with it. Let me know if that right has been rescinded.

 

And while I have never given money directly to this site, I have made a number of purchases over the years through advertisers on the site. More importantly, I find it puzzling that many of you don’t think that caches “contribute” to this site. Without caches, all the money in the world would be useless to this site because there would be no reason for it. Hiding quality caches and maintaining them, treating caches with respect, trading up, repairing caches, etc. all support (and indeed created) the activity that this site is dependent upon, and therefore those things do support the site, IMO. Tens of thousands of caches were placed prior to the existence of PMs, and many more continue to be placed every day by non-premium members. To simply disregard those as irrelevant are an insult to every cacher whose actions (as opposed to cash) created this activity and created the need for this site in the first place. The site doesn’t exist in a vacuum; all of the things that make it possible need to be taken into consideration. Again, my opinion.

 

Obviously many of you would disagree. And while I will always respect the right of a person to have an opinion even if I disagree with it, I guess I can't always expect the same in return. Sad, but not entirely unexpected.

Edited November 11, 2008 by 4x4van

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

I have just submitted our first PMOC for review. My motives were that it is a deliberately frustrating cache, and I wanted to keep rookies away from it. I don't mind giving my local caching friends a hard time, but I'm still aware of the newbies. And for those PM's from afar, you can take it or leave it .

 

I just submitted a 1/1 that's almost a P&G if people are playing for numbers and don't care to enjoy the scenery. It's a PMOC. One reason why: I like that audit log. It's like crack.

 

This comment was really just to test the new username on the forum.

 

- Elle

 

Redneck Parrotheads = HauntHunters

(not that y'all knew me so well, anyway, but I had to test)

[4x4van]

"...complaining about PMOCs are really just airing their own sense of entitlement..."

"...especially for those who claim to be advancing very sophisticated arguments"

"...attempting to clothe their argument for entitlement in fancy words, in the hopes of disguising what they are really saying"

"...small but vociferous minority who keep pushing, under various guises and arguments, the totally specious and self-serving hypotheis the PMOCs are elitist and undesirable"

"...lack of logic and, most importantly, the lack of a sense of gratitude and appreciation on the part of these people"

 

What I find most sad is the possibility that outsiders (including land managers and legislators) who are not geocachers, but who wish to learn more about geocaching and geocachers, might land in this forum and end up stumbling upon this thread, and there is the very real possibility that they might assume that the minority voices on this thread (which are attacking PMOCs as elitist) might perhaps be representative of the entire geocaching community. Frankly, if it were my forum, I would delete the entire thread because the very premise on which it was started disgusts me so much!

 

And what I find most sad is that the majority voices on this thread (which always seem to find it necessary to attack those of us that have a different opinion) might be representative of the entire geocaching community.

 

I have never "attacked" anyone on this forum, nor have I ever "attacked" MOCs. I have, however, been attacked myself, and called many names and many things on this thread (see above), as well as on previous threads about this issue. Other than the fact we have a different opinion about one single feature on this site, you know nothing about me, yet you feel qualified to make the above sweeping statements about my character?

Edited November 11, 2008 by 4x4van

[Mushtang]

More importantly, I find it puzzling that many of you don't think that caches "contribute" to this site.

Hiding caches contributes to the site.

 

Buying from the Groundspeak store contributes to the site.

 

Buying from advertisers contributes to the site.

 

None of those contributions will get you the benefits of a Premium Member membership, such as PQs, bookmark lists, access to Premium Member Only caches, etc. If one of these benefits is elitist, shouldn't they all be?

 

Just because you contribute to the site in one way doesn't mean that you contribute as much or as directly as other people do.

[+nelson crew]

Perhaps it is time for the thread to be closed. It has descended into something it was obviously never meant to be.

[4x4van]

Just because you contribute to the site in one way doesn't mean that you contribute as much or as directly as other people do.

It also doesn't mean...never mind

Edited November 11, 2008 by 4x4van

[jholly]

PMOC caches are elitst

 

<program>

<loop forever>

are not

 

are too

 

</end loop>

</end program>

 

Yes, it is time to take this one out into the back forty and put a bullet in it's head.

[+TrailGators]

PMOC caches are elitst

 

<program>

<loop forever>

are not

 

are too

 

</end loop>

</end program>

 

Yes, it is time to take this one out into the back forty and put a bullet in it's head.

 

[+The Jester]

And while I have never given money directly to this site, I have made a number of purchases over the years through advertisers on the site. More importantly, I find it puzzling that many of you don’t think that caches “contribute” to this site. Without caches, all the money in the world would be useless to this site because there would be no reason for it. Hiding quality caches and maintaining them, treating caches with respect, trading up, repairing caches, etc. all support (and indeed created) the activity that this site is dependent upon, and therefore those things do support the site, IMO. Tens of thousands of caches were placed prior to the existence of PMs, and many more continue to be placed every day by non-premium members. To simply disregard those as irrelevant are an insult to every cacher whose actions (as opposed to cash) created this activity and created the need for this site in the first place. The site doesn’t exist in a vacuum; all of the things that make it possible need to be taken into consideration. Again, my opinion.

"Contribute" does not equate to "support". One helps the sport/activity, the other helps this site exist so that it can list all those caches. To turn it around: Without money, all the caches in the world would be meaningless because there would be no listings of them. Think about it, the more 'contributing' you do actually increases the demand for money by this site, the more caches placed mean more money to pay for the storage of the data, the computers to process the data, and bandwidth to send the data. This sport/activity doesn't exist in a vacuum; without dedicated sites like this it wouldn't be what it is today. What would this sport/activity be like if GC.com closed up shop?

 

Oh, BTW, there weren't "tens of thousands" of caches before PMs existed. A few thousand world wide, yes. But the tens of thousands listed since then are a direct result of money being poured into this site. And to help encourage people to monetarely support this site, many things have been offered - including a small percentage of caches available only to those willing (and able) to help pay for all the equipment and such needed to list all of the caches. TPTB could have gone the other route, and made paying the standard way of playing, with a limited few caches available to anyone to try out. I started off willing to pay just to help keep this sport/activity going, it wasn't for a couple of three years before I started using the perks. Even longer before I placed a PMOC, and that was more for the audit page (with a little as "payment" to others for supporting the site). The last two PMOC's I created were 'upgrades' from regular listings trying to keep a caver from stealing them again.

[+slowdownracer]

If you've ever had a cache stolen by someone who's sole purpose (and membership) was to steal caches, then you might understand. He stole 2 of mine, and many others in our area, but at least he had to pay and Groundspeak benefits from that payment.

 

Yes, one does ruin it for the many, but that one is not me.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Perhaps it is time for the thread to be closed. It has descended into something it was obviously never meant to be.

Oh, I think this carp is exactly what it was meant to be!

[4x4van]

This sport/activity doesn't exist in a vacuum; without dedicated sites like this it wouldn't be what it is today. What would this sport/activity be like if GC.com closed up shop?

If GC.com closed up shop, I don't believe that the activity would disappear. It would continue, and other sites would step up to fill the need. Perhaps there would be one similar to GC.com, or perhaps there would be multiple smaller sites, more regional in nature. Don't get me wrong, GC.com is the best. Jeremy came up with a great combination of features that helped this site to grow exponentially, and I am thankful for that. But the site exists because of the activity, not the other way around.

 

Oh, BTW, there weren't "tens of thousands" of caches before PMs existed. A few thousand world wide, yes. But the tens of thousands listed since then are a direct result of money being poured into this site.

Actually, I think there were in fact "tens of thousands" prior to PMs (there are nearly 3/4 of a million now), but since I don't have any way of verifying that, I'll concede that point.

 

Look, every time this issue comes up, the same thing happens (which is why I didn't post at all till it was three pages long); Someone states their opinion that MOCs seem to divide us up and don't seem fair. The first few responses are usually pretty civil and give some legitimate reasons that people use them. Then it inevitably deteriorates into many people insulting the OP, calling them freeloaders, self-entitled, etc, and within a few more posts, more people jump on saying that that's what's wrong with the world today, etc, etc. Look back over this entire thread, and any of the others on this issue, and you will see the same thing.

The amount of venom and insults thrown around by those PMs say more about them and their real motives for MOCs than anything else. BTW, Jester, I'm not aiming that comment at you; you actually made some logical points above that I quoted in order to respond to.

 

And with that, I'm outta here. I'm tired of being attacked for my opinions, and I feel sorry for the many cachers who have been likewise. Debate me on the merits of the issue, I have no problem. You may even change my mind. It's happened before. But start to question my motives, character, integrity...I have better things to do and better people to spend time with.

Edited November 11, 2008 by 4x4van

[+KBI]

The amount of venom and insults thrown around by those PMs say more about them and their real motives for MOCs than anything else.

Are you serious?

 

Do you truly believe PM-only caches are sometimes hidden for the specific purpose of excluding other cachers out of spite?

 

I believe that is an even stronger and more outrageous charge than the elitism thing.

 

It had never even occurred to me to imagine that anyone was using the PM-only feature for no other reason than to be cruel, vindictive or mean. Other than the speculation you have posted here, do you have any real-world evidence you can show us which led you directly to that conclusion?

[+Kit Fox]

The amount of venom and insults thrown around by those PMs say more about them and their real motives for MOCs than anything else.

 

Rather ran make a baseless allegation, show me an example of one poster in this thread spewing venom.

 

And with that, I'm outta here. I'm tired of being attacked for my opinions, and I feel sorry for the many cachers who have been likewise. Debate me on the merits of the issue, I have no problem. You may even change my mind. It's happened before. But start to question my motives, character, integrity...I have better things to do and better people to spend time with.

 

Who questioned your integrity and your character in this thread? Why is it whenever some argues against your premise, you consider it an attack on you?

 

Speaking of integrity, it would be honorable of you to release this geocoin you have held for almost two years.

[4x4van]

The amount of venom and insults thrown around by those PMs say more about them and their real motives for MOCs than anything else.

Are you serious?

 

Do you truly believe PM-only caches are sometimes hidden for the specific purpose of excluding other cachers out of spite?

 

I believe that is an even stronger and more outrageous charge than the elitism thing.

 

It had never even occurred to me to imagine that anyone was using the PM-only feature for no other reason than to be cruel, vindictive or mean. Other than the speculation you have posted here, do you have any real-world evidence you can show us which led you directly to that conclusion?

I never said it was done out of spite. I do believe, however, that in many cases it's done for no other reason than to exclude cachers, using no other criteria than money. And IMO, that's the wrong reason to place an MOC.

Edited November 11, 2008 by 4x4van

[+KBI]

I never said it was done out of spite ...

 

....And as for "speculation", go back and re-read all 4 pages of this thread. How many times do the MOC-supporters attack the character, motives, or integrity of those who don't like MOCs, rather than debating the pros & cons of them?

Sounds to me like you're describing spite, even if you don't use the word spite.

 

What do you call it?

[+fox-and-the-hound]

I do believe, however, that in many cases it's done for no other reason than to exclude cachers, using no other criteria than money.

 

Can you provide any examples? I've never seen that personally, but it would be enlightening for this thread to actually see some of these caches and their respective descriptions.

[4x4van]

The amount of venom and insults thrown around by those PMs say more about them and their real motives for MOCs than anything else.

 

Rather ran make a baseless allegation, show me an example of one poster in this thread spewing venom.

 

"...complaining about PMOCs are really just airing their own sense of entitlement..."

"...especially for those who claim to be advancing very sophisticated arguments"

"...attempting to clothe their argument for entitlement in fancy words, in the hopes of disguising what they are really saying"

"...small but vociferous minority who keep pushing, under various guises and arguments, the totally specious and self-serving hypotheis the PMOCs are elitist and undesirable"

"...lack of logic and, most importantly, the lack of a sense of gratitude and appreciation on the part of these people"

 

Actually, this thread has been more civil than some previous threads on this issue, in which I and others have been called many things because of our dislike of MOCs.

 

And of course you have to bring up the Geocoin issue, to get a sly attack in, as well. Just to let you know (not that it's any of your business nor does it have anything to do with the subject of MOCs), I have just recently been in contact with the Coin's owner and will be dropping it into a cache soon when I travel up north over the Thanksgiving holiday. Since I don't cache often, I forgot I even had it in my posession till I was cleaning out my pack just a few weeks ago, at which time I did contact the owner.

Edited November 11, 2008 by 4x4van

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

I do believe, however, that in many cases it's done for no other reason than to exclude cachers, using no other criteria than money.

 

Hey, I'm just wondering, since y'all feel so personally attacked and all... what about this quoted comment isn't a personal attack on an entire group of people that you don't even know?

 

Heck, no harm done as far as I'm concerned. I love it when I'm called classist. I only wish I had the bank account to back that up!

 

Is it possible that you're just reaping what you sow on the forum?

 

- Elle

[+bflentje]

The amount of venom and insults thrown around by those PMs say more about them and their real motives for MOCs than anything else.

Are you serious?

 

Do you truly believe PM-only caches are sometimes hidden for the specific purpose of excluding other cachers out of spite?

 

I believe that is an even stronger and more outrageous charge than the elitism thing.

 

It had never even occurred to me to imagine that anyone was using the PM-only feature for no other reason than to be cruel, vindictive or mean. Other than the speculation you have posted here, do you have any real-world evidence you can show us which led you directly to that conclusion?

 

I am in the process of coverting every one of my 114 hides in MOC. I am doing it purely out of spite.

 

I don't care what you call MOCs. I can't get over the idea that people think their lives should be risk-free and that motivation and drive are meaningless terms. Life will never be fair. Get over it. End of thread.

[+team_goobie]

 

Am I alone here?

 

Maybe not alone, outnumbered, yes. But your sense of entitlement is certainly widespread enough out in RL.

 

I have another hobby, crossword solving (and construction). I joined the Cruciverb website many years ago, which has a two tier membership system. Non-paying gets you links to popular daily crosswords, a nice forum and crossword resources. Subscribers ($35 a year) get access to a word and clue database, and links to other crosswords, etc.

 

If you're an aspiring constructor, those subscriber resources are great, but not anything you could live without. If you just like to solve crosswords, they're probably overkill. Either way, you get a choice, and there's no "stigma" to being a member (non-subscriber). You just get what you pay for, and being a paying subscriber helps support the site. Period.

 

That being said, I'm no longer a subscriber to Cruciverb. I still do crosswords but I've compiled my own database and don't need to access Cruciverb's any longer. And, I took up Geocaching, which has been eating up my crossword solving time. Still there are similarities between the hobbies (and the websites) and becoming a paying member when I started geocaching was a no-brainer, and certainly not elitist. $3 a month means elitist? I don't think so. Maybe spending $5 a DAY on a Venti Caramel non-fat no-foam Macchiatto with ginger sprinkles, yes (and pretentious to boot), but $3 a month to get pocket queries et al? No way.

 

There's way too much worrying about this kind of stuff. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch kiddos! That's life!

 

T

[4x4van]

I do believe, however, that in many cases it's done for no other reason than to exclude cachers, using no other criteria than money.

 

Hey, I'm just wondering, since y'all feel so personally attacked and all... what about this quoted comment isn't a personal attack on an entire group of people that you don't even know?

 

- Elle

Fair enough, I suppose that could be considered an attack, as well. And for that I apologize. I try not to paint groups with a broad brush, unfortunately sometimes I fail. My only goal in this entire issue is to try to get people to think about why they are placing a MOC, and to try to limit them when possible, so as to produce enjoyment for the highest number of cachers possible.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Fair enough, I suppose that could be considered an attack, as well. And for that I apologize. I try not to paint groups with a broad brush, unfortunately sometimes I fail. My only goal in this entire issue is to try to get people to think about why they are placing a MOC, and to try to limit them when possible, so as to produce enjoyment for the highest number of cachers possible.

 

I'm just curious as to what makes you think people aren't already doing exactly that? I'm still waiting to see some examples of these numerous caches you speak of.

[+nelson crew]

Fair enough, I suppose that could be considered an attack, as well. And for that I apologize. I try not to paint groups with a broad brush, unfortunately sometimes I fail. My only goal in this entire issue is to try to get people to think about why they are placing a MOC, and to try to limit them when possible, so as to produce enjoyment for the highest number of cachers possible.

Sometimes we all fail. The point you just made (as a summary of your point the whole time) I agree with. I'd say something about how you should have started with that, but I do that kind of thing all the time (though in my case, it's trouble expressing myself). Sometimes we get caught up in the petty stuff.

[+Proud Soccer Mom]

Fair enough, I suppose that could be considered an attack, as well. And for that I apologize. I try not to paint groups with a broad brush, unfortunately sometimes I fail. My only goal in this entire issue is to try to get people to think about why they are placing a MOC, and to try to limit them when possible, so as to produce enjoyment for the highest number of cachers possible.

 

I'm just curious as to what makes you think people aren't already doing exactly that? I'm still waiting to see some examples of these numerous caches you speak of.

 

Not a single non-PM can find MY hides unless they do one of the roundabout ways. You don't think that's scarring enough???

 

- Elle

[4x4van]

Fair enough, I suppose that could be considered an attack, as well. And for that I apologize. I try not to paint groups with a broad brush, unfortunately sometimes I fail. My only goal in this entire issue is to try to get people to think about why they are placing a MOC, and to try to limit them when possible, so as to produce enjoyment for the highest number of cachers possible.

 

I'm just curious as to what makes you think people aren't already doing exactly that? I'm still waiting to see some examples of these numerous caches you speak of.

 

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned Dublin, OH, I think, where nearly all caches are MOC. Was MOC status for nearly every cache the only way to solve a problem in that area? Perhaps, but I kinda doubt it.

 

And as Nelson Crew stated, sometimes we get caught up in the petty stuff and talk (write) before we think. Usually, if I feel my blood pressure begin to rise, I will write a response, then delete it, walk away for awhile, and come back later to repond in a more appropriate way. Unfortunately, I didn't do that in this thread. Again, I apologize to all.

 

I'm not sure why KitFox found it necessary to investigate my caching history to make his point, but all's fair, I guess. In any case, I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of cachers and posters on this thread have much more in common with each other than this thread would seem to suggest, and we'd probably get along famously while out caching.

Edited November 11, 2008 by 4x4van

[+Jackalgirl]

I see that one of the arguments against MOCs is that it "harms geocaching more than it does good".

 

Is there any data on this? This is not intended as an attack (I'm honestly interested), but 4x4 -- do you have any evidence for this statement?

 

How many people have you talked with who expressed the statement that their enjoyment of geocaching was lessened by the fact that there are PMOCs? How many potential geocachers were lost when they found out that such a thing exists?

 

Right now, what I'm seeing are people like yourself, who are advancing the idea that PMOCs are causing a problem and therefore should be removed, and other people who are advancing the idea that there is actually no problem. So having some actual data would be helpful insofar as determining if there is, in fact, a problem.

[+Magnesium]

Fair enough, I suppose that could be considered an attack, as well. And for that I apologize. I try not to paint groups with a broad brush, unfortunately sometimes I fail. My only goal in this entire issue is to try to get people to think about why they are placing a MOC, and to try to limit them when possible, so as to produce enjoyment for the highest number of cachers possible.

 

I'm just curious as to what makes you think people aren't already doing exactly that? I'm still waiting to see some examples of these numerous caches you speak of.

 

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned Dublin, OH, I think, where nearly all caches are MOC. Was MOC status for nearly every cache the only way to solve a problem in that area? Perhaps, but I kinda doubt it.

 

And as Nelson Crew stated, sometimes we get caught up in the petty stuff and talk (write) before we think. Usually, if I feel my blood pressure begin to rise, I will write a response, then delete it, walk away for awhile, and come back later to repond in a more appropriate way. Unfortunately, I didn't do that in this thread. Again, I apologize to all.

 

I'm not sure why KitFox found it necessary to investigate my caching history to make his point, but all's fair, I guess. In any case, I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of cachers and posters on this thread have much more in common with each other than this thread would seem to suggest, and we'd probably get along famously while out caching.

 

I can't speak for KitFox, but he probably felt the need to check into your claims, as I was doing myself. It kind of says something about your character, when you are holding a Geocoin for almost 2 years. What really astounds me though is the fact that with all the logical and well thought out responses to your original post, you have yet to process the information enough to come to a logical conclusion. Or at least to say gee, maybe I am looking at this in the wrong way. Your post was, while likely good heart ed, and mostly emotional.. Unfortunately not well thought out and totally full of hot air!

That this conclusion has not sunk in yet, Leeds me to believe that no one here will ever convince you otherwise!

 

Please don't miss interpret my comments to be hostile, cause I assure you they are not. Otherwise I would have flown to SOCAL just to place a bunch of PMOC around your area.

 

MODS please close this thread.

[+nelson crew]

What really astounds me though is the fact that with all the logical and well thought out responses to your original post, you have yet to process the information enough to come to a logical conclusion. Or at least to say gee, maybe I am looking at this in the wrong way. Your post was, while likely good heart ed, and mostly emotional.. Unfortunately not well thought out and totally full of hot air!

That this conclusion has not sunk in yet, Leeds me to believe that no one here will ever convince you otherwise!

4x4van wasn't the OP.

[+Magnesium]

What really astounds me though is the fact that with all the logical and well thought out responses to your original post, you have yet to process the information enough to come to a logical conclusion. Or at least to say gee, maybe I am looking at this in the wrong way. Your post was, while likely good heart ed, and mostly emotional.. Unfortunately not well thought out and totally full of hot air!

That this conclusion has not sunk in yet, Leeds me to believe that no one here will ever convince you otherwise!

4x4van wasn't the OP.

 

Sorry meant his first...

[4x4van]

I can't speak for KitFox, but he probably felt the need to check into your claims, as I was doing myself. It kind of says something about your character, when you are holding a Geocoin for almost 2 years. What really astounds me though is the fact that with all the logical and well thought out responses to your original post, you have yet to process the information enough to come to a logical conclusion. Or at least to say gee, maybe I am looking at this in the wrong way. Your post was, while likely good heart ed, and mostly emotional.. Unfortunately not well thought out and totally full of hot air!

That this conclusion has not sunk in yet, Leeds me to believe that no one here will ever convince you otherwise!

 

Please don't miss interpret my comments to be hostile, cause I assure you they are not. Otherwise I would have flown to SOCAL just to place a bunch of PMOC around your area.

 

MODS please close this thread.

Why is the only "logical" conclusion the one that you agree with? I still believe that most problems with caches can be addressed effectively without limiting them to only some cachers. That this conclusion has not sunk in yet leads me to believe that no one will ever convince you otherwise, as well. I have also acknowledged that in some cases, MOC is the only solution that worked to solve a problem. assuming that other methods were in fact considered.

 

The fact that you did take the time to investigate my caching history makes me think that perhaps some of my arguments were in fact making sense, so you felt it necessary to try a different tack. Otherwise you probably would have simply written me off as a weirdo and not bothered. And I would be willing to bet that we have all, at one time or another, made a flub or mistake when it comes to TBs, Coins, or caches. When we realize our faux pau, we take steps to remedy the situation. I've already explained the Coin issue, and taken those steps. If that makes you think less of me or my opinions, so be it.

 

No, I don't take your comments to be hostile, as I hope you don't take mine as such. As Nelson Crew said, I was not the OP, and only came into this thread in the 3rd or 4th page. I then unfortunately let my emotions get the best of me and pushed it a bit too far. I should have known better, as this subject has been discussed before, usually with the same basic results. Although the background checks were something new to me, and might make many, myself included, to be a bit more leary of opening up and posting our opinions on future controversial issues.

[+nelson crew]

Sorry meant his first...

mea culpa

[jholly]

I can't speak for KitFox, but he probably felt the need to check into your claims, as I was doing myself. It kind of says something about your character, when you are holding a Geocoin for almost 2 years. What really astounds me though is the fact that with all the logical and well thought out responses to your original post, you have yet to process the information enough to come to a logical conclusion. Or at least to say gee, maybe I am looking at this in the wrong way. Your post was, while likely good heart ed, and mostly emotional.. Unfortunately not well thought out and totally full of hot air!

That this conclusion has not sunk in yet, Leeds me to believe that no one here will ever convince you otherwise!

 

Please don't miss interpret my comments to be hostile, cause I assure you they are not. Otherwise I would have flown to SOCAL just to place a bunch of PMOC around your area.

 

MODS please close this thread.

Why is the only "logical" conclusion the one that you agree with? I still believe that most problems with caches can be addressed effectively without limiting them to only some cachers. That this conclusion has not sunk in yet leads me to believe that no one will ever convince you otherwise, as well. I have also acknowledged that in some cases, MOC is the only solution that worked to solve a problem. assuming that other methods were in fact considered.

 

The fact that you did take the time to investigate my caching history makes me think that perhaps some of my arguments were in fact making sense, so you felt it necessary to try a different tack. Otherwise you probably would have simply written me off as a weirdo and not bothered. And I would be willing to bet that we have all, at one time or another, made a flub or mistake when it comes to TBs, Coins, or caches. When we realize our faux pau, we take steps to remedy the situation. I've already explained the Coin issue, and taken those steps. If that makes you think less of me or my opinions, so be it.

 

No, I don't take your comments to be hostile, as I hope you don't take mine as such. As Nelson Crew said, I was not the OP, and only came into this thread in the 3rd or 4th page. I then unfortunately let my emotions get the best of me and pushed it a bit too far. I should have known better, as this subject has been discussed before, usually with the same basic results. Although the background checks were something new to me, and might make many, myself included, to be a bit more leary of opening up and posting our opinions on future controversial issues.

 

answer me this. Why is it ONLY the caches that seem to get your undies in a bunch? Why not the lack of pocket queries, bookmark lists, forums, the secret hand shake? I could understand a bit more of where your coming from if there were the other things. But ONLY the caches. Why don't you just cough up the $30 like I did then you wouldn't have to complain. Oh, wait a minute, I think I see.

 

Jim

[+J-Way]

Yeeesh... this thread is still alive? Who's got that icon of the smiley beating the dead horse?

 

Yes, a PMOC is elitist. So are private schools, private golf courses, first class seats on planes, premium channels on cable television, and brand-name ice cream. If you pay more, you (usually) get better quality. Fact of life on this planet. Deal with it.

 

Yes, you can "support the site" by clicking on ads and buying Groundspeak products. But the bread-and-butter income for most internet sites after the tech meltdown of the early 2000's is selling memberships. Jeremy can barely keep a steady stock of disposable monogrammed Waterford crystal from the ad revenue generated by this site. He needs the proceeds from premium membership sales to keep his harem happy. If the harem is not happy, Jeremy is not happy, and the site suffers.

 

PMOC's are here to stay.

[+traildad]

 

Why is the only "logical" conclusion the one that you agree with? I still believe that most problems with caches can be addressed effectively without limiting them to only some cachers. That this conclusion has not sunk in yet leads me to believe that no one will ever convince you otherwise, as well. I have also acknowledged that in some cases, MOC is the only solution that worked to solve a problem. assuming that other methods were in fact considered.

Why do you feel that it is necessary to solve the problems in a different way? You can't do all caches because you can't or don't want to pay a few dollars. What about wheel chair cachers? They are not able to do all caches either. Should they demand all caches be handicapped accessible? Not everyone can do all caches. Should I demand an end to micro caches because I don't want to do what is necessary to find them? Most if not all cachers are excluded from some groups of caches either by choice or ability. You are excluded from PMOC by choice or by ability to pay, what is the difference? I am excluded from all caches in Hawaii by my lack of ability to pay for the air fare. It is up to you do decide if those caches are worth the effort and or money needed to get them. The premise of the site was not to create as many caches as possible that will be available to everyone for free. I think it is more along the lines of not charging everyone to use the site. Maybe gratitude for the free stuff would be better than complaining that you don't get everything for free.

[+tozainamboku]

Why do people complain about PMOCs and not the other perks of premium membership?

One needs to remember that when Jeremy launched premium/charter memberships he promised that Geocaching.com would never be a play to pay website. To many that meant there would never be a charge to list a cache on the site, to log your finds, or to get the coordinates of caches to find.

 

At first there weren't many perks to a premium membership. Essentially you could watchlist an unlimited number of caches and change your title in the forums. There were plans for what became pocket queries and I'm not quite sure when the old maps got the premiums feature that allowed for pan and zoom. Jeremy asked for suggestions of things that could be added for premium members. Some people thought that the idea of being able to designate some caches as members only would be a good way to encourage more premium members and to thank those who already had paid. I have no doubt that right from the start there were people who objected that this violated Jeremy's pledge. Even Jeremy seem to accept it reluctantly only after the problem of cache pirates was brought up. Limiting the access to paying members and keeping audit logs of people who visited the cache page was seen as a way to protect caches from thieves.

 

It is Jeremy's pledge of free access to the basic parts of the site that makes PMOCs seem unfair or elitist. One could debate whether or not Jeremy meant that the coordinates of all caches should be free to everyone or just most caches. In some areas, PMOCs seem to have grown to a significant portion of the caches. If you live in a area with very few PMOCs you probably don't even notice them. Where they are a significant portion of the caches, a regular member may have found all the regular caches nearby and sees a only PMOCs on their closest unfound page. They are going to feel that someone is trying to get them to pay despite Jeremy's promise. Sure they could travel further and find more regular caches but wouldn't it be better to be part of the elite who can find close by caches?

[4x4van]

 

answer me this. Why is it ONLY the caches that seem to get your undies in a bunch? Why not the lack of pocket queries, bookmark lists, forums, the secret hand shake? I could understand a bit more of where your coming from if there were the other things. But ONLY the caches. Why don't you just cough up the $30 like I did then you wouldn't have to complain. Oh, wait a minute, I think I see.

 

Jim

My "undies" are fine, thank you. The point has already been made that the other PM features make caching easier, more convienient, etc. Not so with MOCs. And what makes you think that coughing up $30 would change my opinion of MOCs. There have actually been several PMs that agree with at least some of my points, both in this thread and others like it. And I've stated in the past that even if I decide to become a PM, I hope to never use MOCs. I know, never say never.

 

I agree, this thread has run it's course, pretty much the same course that every thread on this issue seems to run. In the interest of extending an olive branch to all, I will no longer burden you with my opinion on it.

[+J-Way]

I agree, this thread has run it's course, pretty much the same course that every thread on this issue seems to run. In the interest of extending an olive branch to all, I will no longer burden you with my opinion on it.

OK

[AZcachemeister]

I concede.

 

 

PM caches are definitely elitist.

 

 

 

No doubt about it.

 

 

 

Elitist...definitely elitist.

 

 

 

Dad lets me drive slow on the driveway. But not on Monday, definitely not on Monday.

 

 

 

PM cachers who so designate their caches are elitist.

 

 

 

You can just SMELL the eliteness as they strut past you on their way to hide another PM cache!

 

 

 

SO WHAT?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get over yourselves.

[+TEAM HARTSOCK]

Well, I joined as a PM after only finding a handful of caches. Did it because I am hooked and love the sport and know this is something I will do for a long time. Wasn't overly impressed by the benefits -- can't get the caches along a route thing to work right for me --- very few members only caches around... but I joined to be a part of supporting this site and the sport.

 

If there was a higher level (secret platinum one, prehaps?) and there were special caches; I would have no problem with that. I probably wouldn't pay more to get access to them, but at the same time, if someone wants to do it, then let them do it. It is all part of the system and that is how it works.

 

One thing I want to know is....when do I get my decoder ring in the mail?

[+TrailGators]

Elitist...definitely elitist.

 

Dad lets me drive slow on the driveway. But not on Monday, definitely not on Monday.

 

5 minutes until Wapner...

[Luckless]

Maybe we are confusing this website with another one? As far as elitism goes for anyone wanting to be an elitist, there is another caching website that was founded on elitism.